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» babble   » current events   » international news and politics   » Iran says it will continue its nuclear program 'with full speed'

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Author Topic: Iran says it will continue its nuclear program 'with full speed'
Centerfield
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posted 25 December 2006 07:51 AM      Profile for Centerfield        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"What kind of Security Council is this that is completely in the hands of the Zionists, the United States and Britain?" he added.



quote:
The Foreign Ministry said in a statement that Iran, in response to the sanctions, intends to put into operation an additional 3,000 centrifuges at its main nuclear complex in Natanz, the newspaper Iran reported Sunday. It had said it would have 3,000 in operation by the end of the month.




http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/12/25/MNGM3N5MAG1.DTL

[ 25 December 2006: Message edited by: Centerfield ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 25 December 2006 08:23 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Iranian government is right in pointing out the historical unanimity between Zionists and the SC. In fact the 1947 partition plan was one of those very rare occassions where the USSR, and the USA and its allies agreed. It seems that all the Christian powers felt that it would be best if the "Jewish problem" were transfered to the middle-east.

This despite the fact that in the main Jews released from the concentration camps stated their desire to move to the USA, not Palestine, according to the UN commission convened to study the partition plan. The US was not so keen on this idea. So in essence, even after the war the USA continued with its war time policy of refusing Jews persecuted by the Nazis. Stalin, an antisemite in his own right, and an avid practictioner of population transfer in the USSR supported the initiative whole-heartedly.

[ 25 December 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
nussy
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posted 25 December 2006 11:01 AM      Profile for nussy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What abot France, Russia and China? Don't they count? They all voted in favour.
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Kevin_Laddle
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posted 25 December 2006 11:10 AM      Profile for Kevin_Laddle   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
The undemocratic "veto" power within the SC effectively makes it impotent on divisive votes such as this. Having siad that, I'm not sure this is an entirely bad thing (I'm somewhat ignorant of the specifics of what they were voting on).

Ideally, I'd like to see every country in the world destroy and renounce it's nuclear arsenal. Failing that, I'd like to see a strong deterrent to the absurdly large arsenals possessed by the United States, Israel, and other nations subservient to their commands. A strong Iranian deterrent to Israeli aggression may actually increase peace in the short term. However, in the long term (barring a major change of leadership philosophy in Washington) I think the prospect for world peace is bleak.


From: ISRAEL IS A TERRORIST STATE. ASK THE FAMILIES OF THE QANA MASSACRE VICTIMS. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
IgnoramusMaximus
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posted 25 December 2006 11:13 AM      Profile for IgnoramusMaximus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As to the 1947 partition plan, I think things were wee bit more complicated then that. Zionists of all stripe seized on the feelings of guilt and sympathy which the fresh revelations of the Holocaust attrocities created in the general public of most nations and used it to manipulate the process, with the tacit help of those with various other coinciding agendas. China had reasons to support this for appearances sake (and also seeking to gather sympathy for attrocities commited by the Japanese), not to mention other geo-political manouvering going on at that time.

A perfect storm, if you will.

As to Iran, I think their next logical move is withdrawal from the Non-proliferation Treaty and IAEA as both clearly represent the apex of hypocritical double-standards.

[ 25 December 2006: Message edited by: IgnoramusMaximus ]


From: Winnipeg | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
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posted 25 December 2006 02:12 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Zionists of all stripe seized on the feelings of guilt and sympathy which the fresh revelations of the Holocaust attrocities created in the general public of most nations and used it to manipulate the process, with the tacit help of those with various other coinciding agendas.

I think this is largely true. However, it seems very apparent that anti-Semitism didn't die with the fall of the Nazi regime, as it still held strong among many in the ruling classes in the conquering allied countries.

It seems that one of their motivations for creating the Israeli state was to export their "Jewish problems" to someplace else, rather than actually do something to combat anti-Semitism at home.

This could be partly why the Israeli state was set up in such a brutal way, with little consideration for the Palestinian Arab populations there at the time.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
IgnoramusMaximus
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posted 25 December 2006 05:28 PM      Profile for IgnoramusMaximus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Steppenwolf Allende:
However, it seems very apparent that anti-Semitism didn't die with the fall of the Nazi regime, as it still held strong among many in the ruling classes in the conquering allied countries.

It seems that one of their motivations for creating the Israeli state was to export their "Jewish problems" to someplace else, rather than actually do something to combat anti-Semitism at home.


Quite so. I put that in the "coinciding agendas" territory.

quote:

This could be partly why the Israeli state was set up in such a brutal way, with little consideration for the Palestinian Arab populations there at the time.

Perheaps, but I must point out that some sub-species of Zionists were already out (long before the Holocaust) to punish severely the "sub-human" Arabs in revenge for their daring to live on the land that God himself promised the said Zionists. That is why that group of Zionists insisted that Israel be placed where it is and not as some suggested on, say, unusued land in Argentine or where not. Such a location simply did not provide the opportunity to demonstate God's ways, so clearly depicted in the Old Testament, say like killing all of the first-born children of all the families in Egypt for some slights past against the Israelites commited by their parents. That is the kind of gentle God all of these Middle-Eastern religions have. He fits so well the mindset of some of the more "devoted" of his followers, the ones with human flesh in their teeth.

[ 25 December 2006: Message edited by: IgnoramusMaximus ]


From: Winnipeg | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Centerfield
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posted 25 December 2006 08:10 PM      Profile for Centerfield        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by nussy:
What abot France, Russia and China? Don't they count? They all voted in favour.

Your correct,these are not countries run by Zionists so once again this is a ridiculous statement by a head official of Iran.


How can anyone deny the Holocaust,what about the Nuremberg Trials.
And how is it possible for the media to be controlled by the Jew/Zionists.It would have to be done on a massive scale and take many people in very high powered positions to accomplish this.


From: Ontario | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
IgnoramusMaximus
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posted 25 December 2006 11:16 PM      Profile for IgnoramusMaximus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Centerfield:
And how is it possible for the media to be controlled by the Jew/Zionists.

"Controlled" is a wrong word. "Heavily influenced" is more like it. Consider just the Canadian media for example: the Asper family, known Zionists, owns the CanWest Global and all the related media businesses such as the National Post. Ivan Fecan, another prominent Zionist, runs the CTV. That's over 50% of Canadian "mainstream" mass media, right there. And I could go on.

This story is much the same all over the western industrialized world.

So while the Zionists do not "control" all media, their power, completely out of proportion to their numbers, over much of the Western media is unquestionable.

quote:

It would have to be done on a massive scale and take many people in very high powered positions to accomplish this.

Not true. All it takes is either financial control of the very few (and growing more consolidated all the time) media corporations or the boards of directors of thereof. We are talking less then a hundred individuals with sufficent financial resources and "connections". That is made possible thanks to the senseless kleptocratic orgy of "mergers and acquisitions" which has been going on in the corporate media world for many years now, pretty much completely unopposed by any of the supposed official market or media watchdogs.

[ 25 December 2006: Message edited by: IgnoramusMaximus ]


From: Winnipeg | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 26 December 2006 10:24 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by nussy:
What abot France, Russia and China? Don't they count? They all voted in favour.

Exactly, remarkable unanimity in the SC. That is what I said. There is no error obvious error in the Iranians statement that SC was in the hands of the Zionists. This continues simply through the veto of the US, which simply averts any concrete action by the SC.

But lets recount what was actually going on in Russia China and France at the time.

You may remember that in 1947, France was in the pocket of one Charles De Gaulle, trying to cobble torgether some kind of government out of the ashes of the war, while (now check this juggling act) hang onto its African, Middle Eastern and Asian territories, a project completely impossible without generous donations of US Army equipment from the USA. Did you ever notice that the Free French soldiers that liberated Paris were wearing US army uniforms, riding in American built jeeps, driving Sherman tanks, and carrying M1 Carbines?

No? Well I did.

They were dressed similarly in Hanoi, and even in Algeria is 56.

Was De Gaulle opposed to resolving the "Jewish Problem" by transfer? Why would we assume such about the president of the country of marshal Petain, and the Dreyfus affair?

As for China, the Koumintang was in the UN seat at the time, but in the last stages of being driven off the mainland by Mao and the PLA. Chaing, another American client, was unlikely to make a principled stand about an issue relating to things going on very far away in the middle of a life or death civil war, and offend his sponsor.

As for Russia, I thought we dealt with that. Stalin was an antisemite, and so was likely very positive about kicking these Jews out of Europe. There is no reason to doubt that he later envisioned transfers of the Russian Jews to the Middle East at a later date. Russian support, however, only really ceased when it became clear that Israel was turning into an Western Client, not a Russian one. And that made all the difference, but that was later after the honeymoon.

Furthermore, in 1947, Russia was conciously making an effort to comply with the Yalta "sphere of influence agreements", and had its hands full in places such as Yugoslvia and Greece, and went as far as to abandon the largely succesful Greek communist revolt to appease British and American policy makers for brownie points elsewhere. So there is no reason to think that Russia would want to rock the boat over the British and American plan.

[ 26 December 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 26 December 2006 11:17 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

You may remember that in 1947, France was in the pocket of one Charles De Gaulle, trying to cobble torgether some kind of government out of the ashes of the war, while (now check this juggling act) hang onto its African, Middle Eastern and Asian territories, a project completely impossible without generous donations of US Army equipment from the USA. Did you ever notice that the Free French soldiers that liberated Paris were wearing US army uniforms, riding in American built jeeps, driving Sherman tanks, and carrying M1 Carbines?


They might have been Sherman "Ronson lighters" tanks, but not all of them were French nationals who Liberated France. The French people liberated Paris. After finishing in N Africa and Sicily, my father, with les Regimente de Trois Rivieres, travelled up the Italian boot, then over to France where they rode through the Arche de Triomphe in Sherman tanks with Montgomery's Eighth Army before touring Amsterdam, Maastricht, and finally Brussels in '45. They were Sherman tanks assembled in Canada that were used at Ortona and Monte Cassino, a strategic landmark which was handed back to the American forces twice by Canadians and Brits after Germans captured and re-captured it.

By what I've read, De Gaulle did not enjoy widespread support in France. The Free French soldiers had few connections with the working class underground French Resistance during the war.

U.S. endorsed Iranian plans to build massive nuclear energy industry

[ 26 December 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Centerfield
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posted 26 December 2006 08:34 PM      Profile for Centerfield        Edit/Delete Post
Should Israel and the rest of the world just let Iran build it's nuclear bombs, and not take seriously the threats spoken by Ahmadinejad ?


quote:
TEHRAN, Iran (AP) -- December 24, 2006 - Iran vowed Sunday to push forward with efforts to enrich uranium and to change its relations with the international nuclear watchdog, after the U.N. Security Council imposed sanctions designed to stop the country's disputed nuclear efforts.


What seems rather disturbing is why the Jews are at the top of Ahmadinejad hit list(Agenda).

Ahmadinejad Praised by Participants of the Holocaust Conference in Tehran, But Condemned by Zionists in Europe


Ahmadinejad

quote:
Those having supported the Zionist regime during their lifetime, should be aware that its lifetime will be over and their interests as well as reputation will be endangered.

quote:
Talking to the guests attending the conference, he noted, "Iran is your house and the house of the world free-thinkers, where everyone can fully express themselves in a brotherly, peaceful, free and calm atmosphere and exchange views with others." Ahmadinejad hoped that once the participants of this conference return to their homelands, their governments will not bother them, but rather show that they respect freedom.


Iran-Holocaust-Professor Ahmadian


quote:
Ahmadian told the two-day seminar dubbed as 'Holocaust, Global Perspective' that the entire Western publicity on holocaust are aimed at supporting Israel.

He advised the Germans, "If you have lots of money or want to be good humans and help others, do not pay reparations to the holocaust survivors because they would be spent on Israel's nuclear arms."



So far Ahmadinejad has managed to achieve nothing other than to create more hatred, and make friends with garbage like David Duke.How has this helped the Iranian people ?
How do these actions and disturbing comments from Ahmadinejad help with his credibility.

The only thing Ahmadinejad is accomplishing is the justification for Israel to defend itself and gain sympathy from the rest of the world.


A person would have to be completely obtuse not to think this lunatic wants war.

[ 26 December 2006: Message edited by: Centerfield ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 26 December 2006 08:45 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Where did Ahmedinejad say he wants war with Israel, or is that just something you are able to divine by psychic powers?

Where did Ahmedinejad say he intends to build nuclear bombs?

Seems to me the only ones spoiling for a war are you and your co-thinkers in the White House:

quote:
It now appears that the idea of attacking Iran is again moving forward. The Eisenhower strike force, armed with some 800 Tomahawk cruise missiles as well as a fleet of strike aircraft, and already on station in the Arabian Sea for over a month and a half, has moved into the Persian Gulf. A second carrier group, led by the USS Stennis, is steaming toward the Gulf, too. Already in position are three expeditionary strike groups and an amphibious warship, all suitable for landing Marines on Iranian beaches. On December 20, the New York Times, citing Pentagon sources, reported that both Britain and the U.S. are moving additional naval forces into the region "in a display of military resolve toward Iran that will come as the United Nations continues to debate possible sanctions against the country." (We've all seen what "displays of force" by the Bush administration actually turn out to be.) - Dave Lindorff

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 26 December 2006 08:49 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Centerfield:
Should Israel and the rest of the world just let Iran build it's nuclear bombs, and not take seriously the threats spoken by Ahmadinejad ?

Of course not. Israel should nuke Iran asap, before it's too late.

I suggest Israel do the job rather than the U.S. or NATO, because that might draw terrorist backlash on us. Israel is used to it.

Israel must act fast. Just look at all the countries Iran has invaded in the past century alone. I don't have a link handy, but I'm sure you can find the list easily using Google.

Then you can also check out how Iran is persecuting its own Jewish community - we can call it genocide. How long will the world remain silent? Again, Israel are mostly Jews, so they should bear the lion's share of nuking Iran.

I'm sure Israel will be good at doing surgical strikes on Iran's stockpiles of Weapons of Mass Destruction. If not, it's not a big problem. Iran lost tonnes of people in "human wave" attacks on Iraqi forces during their war. Again, they're used to it.

So I'm with you, Centrefield. Is there a petition or something we can sign to get Israel off its ass and start the nuking? What the hell are they waiting for - another Holocaust?

[The above is sarcasm directed at Centrefield's warmongering tirade.]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 26 December 2006 09:28 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The only thing Ahmadinejad is accomplishing is the justification for Israel to defend itself and gain sympathy from the rest of the world.

Ahmadinejad is part of the Jewish Conspiracy?

quote:
A person would have to be completely obtuse not to think this lunatic wants war.

And he sure has good timing. Just when the Likudniks and the PNACers need some other boogeyman, up steps Ahmadinejad to fullfill the role. He takes over from Saddam Hussein, whose lackluster performance turned off audiences tired of the complex storyline that led to plummeting ratings for "Operation Iraqi Liberation". His underwhelming commitment to the role, summed up in his phoned-in appearance in the "Trial of a Dictator" episode didn't go unnoticed, and led to a change in direction for the series. The focus will be more on the traditional "Evil Nazi" role more familiar to audiences from legendary screen classics as "Casablanca", "Saving Private Ryan", "Schindler's List" and "Hogan's Heros". Producers hope that the tried and true "new Hitler" storyline will add a punch to the long-running series, and be a hit with audiences eager to be terrified and stupified again. Producers aren't worried about the series jumping the shark, and say they faced the same criticism with "Quadaffi: The Evil Reborn", "Sandinista: the day Texas Died", and "Little House: A new Beginning", but each new twist of the series brought enthusiastic audience response.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Centerfield
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posted 26 December 2006 10:10 PM      Profile for Centerfield        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

Of course not. Israel should nuke Iran asap, before it's too late.

I suggest Israel do the job rather than the U.S. or NATO, because that might draw terrorist backlash on us. Israel is used to it.

Israel must act fast. Just look at all the countries Iran has invaded in the past century alone. I don't have a link handy, but I'm sure you can find the list easily using Google.

Then you can also check out how Iran is persecuting its own Jewish community - we can call it genocide. How long will the world remain silent? Again, Israel are mostly Jews, so they should bear the lion's share of nuking Iran.

I'm sure Israel will be good at doing surgical strikes on Iran's stockpiles of Weapons of Mass Destruction. If not, it's not a big problem. Iran lost tonnes of people in "human wave" attacks on Iraqi forces during their war. Again, they're used to it.

So I'm with you, Centrefield. Is there a petition or something we can sign to get Israel off its ass and start the nuking? What the hell are they waiting for - another Holocaust?

[The above is sarcasm directed at Centrefield's warmongering tirade.]



Then why go this route and cause more friction in the middle east.Why hold this conference now and invite racist pigs like david duke?

How could any UN country justify accepting Ahmadinejad conditions after this "Holocaust Conference fiasco ?

And why make statements like this

quote:
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Tuesday told delegates at an international conference questioning the Holocaust that Israel's days were numbered.


and calling for Israel to be "wiped off the map


if your trying to get confirmation from the UN to build Nuclear power ?

Is he not putting his own people in jeopardy
by being so reckless?


From: Ontario | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Centerfield
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posted 26 December 2006 10:23 PM      Profile for Centerfield        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Where did Ahmedinejad say he wants war with Israel, or is that just something you are able to divine by psychic powers?
Where did Ahmedinejad say he intends to build nuclear bombs?

Seems to me the only ones spoiling for a war are you and your co-thinkers in the White House:


Do you really believe the rest of the world is that naive ?

The UN vote was 15 to 0.

I trust these countries had there reasons to decline Ahmadinejad,perhaps making threats were part of the reason.


From: Ontario | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Legless-Marine
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posted 26 December 2006 11:19 PM      Profile for Legless-Marine        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

Just look at all the countries Iran has invaded in the past century alone. I don't have a link handy, but I'm sure you can find the list easily using Google.

The number is ZERO.

quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

Then you can also check out how Iran is persecuting its own Jewish community - we can call it genocide. How long will the world remain silent?

According to wikipedia, Persian Jews experience the same discrimination as any other religious minority in Iran, with additional hostility due to conflict between Iran and Israel. A far cry from Genocide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews#Discrimination


From: Calgary | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 27 December 2006 11:58 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Centerfield:
Should Israel and the rest of the world just let Iran build it's nuclear bombs, and not take seriously the threats spoken by Ahmadinejad ?

It makes no difference to me, since anyone who actually thinks the point of having nuclear weapons is to use them is, at least in terms of their political understanding of the purposes of nuclear weapons, out of their mind. In fact the point of nuclear weapons is not to use them.

What they do do however, is strengthen the threat component inherent in conventional arms, thus, in the case of Iran, it will mean that the threat potential of its conventional army will be enhanced giving Iran a better hand at the regional power poker table.

For instance, one could envisage an Iranian occupation of Southern Iraq.

What is at stake here is not the anhiliation of Israel, but the realignment of power relationships more in favour of local players. This realiginment is what is really being opposed, not the nuclear weapons, which Iran will never use.

The idea that the European powers should use an international body such as the UN as a venue to exrpess their desire to maintain the status quo power relations in the Middle East, is of course, nothing new.

[ 27 December 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 27 December 2006 01:08 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Legless_Marine, thanks for looking up the info, but I do hope you realize I was being sarcastic - as indicated at the end of my post:

quote:
[The above is sarcasm directed at Centrefield's warmongering tirade.]

I'm glad to see the answers you came up with are the same as the ones I had in mind!


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 27 December 2006 01:35 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The only thing Ahmadinejad is accomplishing is the justification for Israel to defend itself and gain sympathy from the rest of the world.

They haven't been attacked. And in spite of the Orwellian doctrine of "pre-emptive strike" as defined by folks at the White House, and the Israeli Ministry of Information, hitting someone who isn't imminently threatening you is still aggression. You aren't advocating aggression, are you, Centrefield?


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 27 December 2006 01:42 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

A person would have to be completely obtuse not to think this lunatic wants war

Quite the opposite: one would have to be completely obtuse to think he wants war. Why would he simultaneously want to fight two of the largest military powers in the world with virtually no allies of his own? Are Persians not as bright as other people? Maybe you think that unlike our own leaders, he actually believes his own hyperbole? One must always look deeper than bluster and strong-worded pronouncements made for the viewing public(s). Assessing a possible policy involves seriously considering the value of such a policy to the actor. Sure, people aren't entirely rational, but when the odds are so completely against you, you don't choose to play to your weak side. Iran has more to win from a PR struggle with the U.S. and Israel, and has more power on the economic front (natural gas) than it has on the battlefield. Do you have some reason to believe that the Iranian government is suicidal? Do you suppose they didn't learn from the front row seat they had to Operation Shock and Awe?

It is the U.S. and Israel who would like this to escalate to warfare. If they can justify a "pre-emptive" attack on Iran, they've shifted game entirely in their favour. The only realm in which the United States is still marginally dominant is militarily. Economically and politically, they don't have the strength they once did. They are massively in debt, being outproduced by China and Europe, and have spent a lot of their political capital starting a civil war in Iraq. Their current use of the UN is a familiar reuse. Having gone that route, they can then claim plausibly (to some with short memories) that "negotiations have failed" when Iran continues on its current path. Then, regardless of the protests that will be lodged by the UN players they currently stand in smirking concert with, they will go ahead with a new "coalition of the willing" to shift the grounds of the conflict to a place where they cannot be easily beaten. Iran knows this, which is why they will redouble their efforts to complete nuclear weapons as soon as possible.

Why are you being part of the shell game?

[ 27 December 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Centerfield
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posted 27 December 2006 08:53 PM      Profile for Centerfield        Edit/Delete Post
The UN vote was 15 to 0

What else is there to say about a leader who shares the same views as David Duke.
I suppose there's a slight chance he didn't know who duke was before he was invited.


David Duke

In September, 1999, Duke met with Communist Duma deputy Albert Makashov, a Russian nationalist, at the editorial offices of Zavtra, a nationalist newspaper. The following quotes are taken from The Moscow Times (10/16/99):
"Russia’s biggest problem is organized crime and its leaders are influenced by the Russian mafia," Duke said. "But it’s not right to call it a Russian mafia, it’s a Jewish mafia."

"The Russian Federation has a growing Moslem minority, which is causing cultural and religious clashes. This is similar to mass immigration of Mexicans to America, and certain presidential candidates are tailoring their campaigns to get Mexican votes."


"We Aryans are those of European descent who are racially conscious and who have committed our lives to our people's survival and evolutionary advancement. We shall do our duty. We shall not surrender our freedom and our very existence to Jewish or any other power. We shall preserve our heritage and our hard-won rights and freedoms. We shall guide our people up the evolutionary stairway to the stars."

­­ My Awakening, p. 469 (1998)

"Jewish power is ubiquitous. Every politician is so aware of it that he knows he cannot dare mention it! Jewish organizations, Jewish media and Jewish political agents ruthlessly seek their perceived interests without remorse and without introspection. Just as single-mindedly as they once orchestrated the Russian Revolution, they now coordinate their power over the goyim. No Jewish leader has to direct his minions to seek political control of Gentile nations; they do it as naturally as the Blue Jay appropriates another bird's nest. No one has to tell Jews to destroy Gentile pride, heritage, honor, loyalty, tradition, while at the same time building up their own. It is in their programming."

­­ My Awakening, p. 463-4 (1998)

"They thoroughly dominate the news and entertainment media in almost every civilized nation; they control the international markets and stock exchanges; and no government can resist doing their bidding on any issue of importance. They can coalesce against any state that resists their power, whether it [sic] economic extortion of a billion dollars from Switzerland or the violent carpet bombing of Iraq. The cohesion of the Jewish people is indeed the context of the New World Order, and with it they propose to extend their totalitarian denial of free speech from Europe and Canada to the nation that was once the most free in the world: the United States."

­­ My Awakening, p. 463 (1998)

"The Jews are trying to destroy all other cultures...as a survival mechanism...the only Nazi country in the world is Israel."

­­ Ros Davidson interview, May 13, 1990
(quoted in the San Francisco Examiner,
November 13, 1991)

"They're trying to exterminate our race. I think, probably in a moral sense, the Jewish people have been a blight. I mean as a whole, not every Jew. And they probably deserve to go into the ashbin of history. But saying that and actually shooting or killing people in masses, are two different things. I'm not advocating extermination. I think the best thing is to resettle them in someplace where they can't exploit others. And I don't think they can live among themselves, I really don't."

­­ Evelyn Rich interview, February 1986

"These Jews who run things, who are producing this mental illness ­­ teenage suicide...all these Jewish sicknesses...that's nothing new. The Talmud's full of things like sex with boys and girls."

­­ Evelyn Rich interview, March 1985

"Jewish people have put the interests of race over the interests of the American people.... Jews are filled with more hatred and rage for our race, for our heritage, for our blood than perhaps you can imagine."


On the Holocaust
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"While helping hundreds of thousands of refugees, Red Cross volunteers undoubtedly heard stories of Nazi brutality and rumors of mass gassings and they noted those rumors and kept an eye out for any evidence of them, but they saw nothing to indicate that the rumors were true."

-- My Awakening, p. 430 (1998)

"The official keepers of the Holocaust wage an international campaign to silence the disturbing questions. Most people never even hear the revisionist position because Jewish forces dominate the media and block mainstream access to material that questions Holocaust orthodoxy."

­­ My Awakening, p. 430 (1998)

"Did you ever notice how many survivors they have? Did you ever notice that? Everybody – every time you turn around, 15,000 survivors meet here, 400 survivors convention there. I mean, did you ever notice? Nazis sure were inefficient, weren't they? Boy, boy, boy! ...You almost have no survivors that ever say they saw a gas chamber or saw the workings of a gas chamber...they'll say these preposterous stories that anybody can check out to be a lie, an absolute lie."

­­ Evelyn Rich interview, March 1985

Duke: "Obviously, Jews gain certain advantages by promoting the Holocaust idea. It inspires tremendous financial aid for Israel. It makes organized Jewry almost immune from criticism. Whether the Holocaust is real or not, the Jews clearly have a motive for fostering the idea that it occurred. Not only do they have a motive, but they have the means with the media domination they now hold.

Hustler: "Do you really doubt the Holocaust occurred?

Duke: "Let's put it this way. I question whether 6 million Jews actually died in Nazi death camps. There are two major sources for Holocaust stories. One is the Nuremburg war-crimes trial, which has been shown by all honest historians to be a farce of justice. Another source is the great body of literature and media work, and at least 90% of that material is from biased Jewish sources."


http://www.adl.org/special_reports/duke_own_words/on_jews.asp


I weep for the Iranian people,how did they ever end up with this.


[ 27 December 2006: Message edited by: Centerfield ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 27 December 2006 11:34 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They didn't. You did.

So, according to you because Amedinejad allows David Duke to appear at a conference in his country, it means they agree on all points. However, the fact that Amedinejad allowed a Canadian professor to come to the same conference who says that "denying the Holocaust is insane" doesn't have the same magical effect.

Settle down, you are spreading disinformation. And engaging in rank smearing by association.

If you are going to go after Amedinejad, go after what he actually says, not what you think he thinks because he had the bad taste to snub his nose at you by inviting David Duke to his little shindig.

In fact, Nejad is playing you like a flute.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cardy
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posted 28 December 2006 02:57 AM      Profile for Cardy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball, if a university near you invited David Duke to come and share his views on the Holocaust on campus how would you react?

Talk about being played... A reactionary, theocratic, repressive government, that allows no domestic left opposition, that does nothing to support Palestine but spew divisive rhetoric, has found its champions clinging to the fringes of the international left.

Right, right, you and your ilk don't support Ahmedinejad. You're just fair-minded and objective observers, enjoying a nice chat about Jewish, oh, sorry, Zionist control of the media.

Lovely.


From: Kathmandu, Nepal | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 28 December 2006 06:57 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cardy:
Cueball, if a university near you invited David Duke to come and share his views on the Holocaust on campus how would you react?

This dragon has no teeth.

I would protest. Yet I would not suggest that the Rector, Dean or Board of the university shared his views, unless they themselves were to start propounding them. So a bunch of quotes from David Duke do not in and of themselves indicate anything very much about Amedinejad.

If you and the other red guard types want to run around the halls of your favourite institutions arguing that people are "objective reactionaries" based on associative guilt, that is fine, but please don't try and make me agree that you are progressive.

Again, how does Amedinejad's call for Jews to be enfranchised in a future Palestinian state sit with the David Dukes racialist philosophy? That's a pretty milquetoast fascist philosophy if you ask me.

It is pretty clear to me that the point behind having Faurrison and Duke appear was not to highlight their views, but to example how discussion of the Holocaust is heavily censored within the heard of individuals we like to call the intelligensia.

The obvious contradiction in your hysteria is exampled by the fact that you assert that David Dukes political view rub off on Amedinejad, while the views of others attending who clearly state that the Holocaust is a historical fact do not.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 28 December 2006 07:27 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cardy:
Cueball, if a university near you invited David Duke to come and share his views on the Holocaust on campus how would you react?

Good question.

Speaking of which, does anyone know which country David Duke calls home, and why it allows him to spew his neo-Nazi venom in speech and print on a daily basis?

Also, is that country trying to develop nuclear weapons and/or other WMD?

I think we should cut this evil off at the source.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cardy
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posted 28 December 2006 07:55 AM      Profile for Cardy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball, my objections here is the subjectivity.

Iran, a fairly rigid state where dissent is punished, is given the benefit of the doubt as an explorer of controversial ideas.

And the people giving the benefit of the doubt here are the people most rigid in their thinking, most prone to sweeping condemnations in most contexts.

When I hear you, unionist, etc, defending free speech as a universal principle, then I'll take you seriously on this subject.

Until then I'll read your contributions here as sad and misguided expressions of support for Palestine. Really sad, and really misguided.


From: Kathmandu, Nepal | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 28 December 2006 08:03 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cardy:
Cueball, my objections here is the subjectivity.

Iran, a fairly rigid state where dissent is punished, is given the benefit of the doubt as an explorer of controversial ideas.

And the people giving the benefit of the doubt here are the people most rigid in their thinking, most prone to sweeping condemnations in most contexts.

When I hear you, unionist, etc, defending free speech as a universal principle, then I'll take you seriously on this subject.

Until then I'll read your contributions here as sad and misguided expressions of support for Palestine. Really sad, and really misguided.


I hardly think that you are capable of coming to this conclusion when you have clearly shown that you don't know anything about Palestine or Palestinians. Your ignorance is so breathtaking in its sweep that you actually have asserted here on this board that the Palestinian political movements are secessionist, when almost every single official document (but one) issued by a Palestinian group indicates that their movement is unificationist, not secessionist.

Fitting whatever fantasies you like into your preconceptions may be comforting in intellectual excersizes, but I suggest you don't apply this methodology while flying light aircraft.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cardy
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posted 28 December 2006 08:14 AM      Profile for Cardy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Another point to revisit and explain? Fair enough, I'm desperately procrastinating on a report and this is more fun than defragging my hard drive.

I did not say Palestinian political movements are secessionist, I said Palestinians fighting for the Israeli rights would mark a concession to the authority of the Israeli state. If the US took over Canada I would not want an American passport, I would want them out of my country. The more an occupying power incorporates occupied land into the framework of its laws the more the occupied land becomes part of the occupier's.

That wasn't complicated enough to take much time. Ah well, I'm sure you'll be back for more.


From: Kathmandu, Nepal | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 28 December 2006 08:18 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Confusing what you want with what other people want, -- or more accurately, determining what is "best for them" -- is the essence of the "white mans burden."

I recomend, "the End of the Peace Process," by the late Edward Said, also "Orientalism" by the same.

[ 28 December 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cardy
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posted 28 December 2006 08:31 AM      Profile for Cardy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I read 'Orientalism' years ago but I haven't read the peace process book; perhaps you could summarize it in another thread?

'Orientalism' is fairly dated now; Said's students have developed his thoughts in much more interesting directions.


From: Kathmandu, Nepal | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 28 December 2006 08:34 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have seen appeals to authority often on this board, but rarely appeals to fashion.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 28 December 2006 08:38 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cardy:

I did not say Palestinian political movements are secessionist, I said Palestinians fighting for the Israeli rights would mark a concession to the authority of the Israeli state. If the US took over Canada I would not want an American passport, I would want them out of my country. The more an occupying power incorporates occupied land into the framework of its laws the more the occupied land becomes part of the occupier's.

This is not what you said. You made a direct comparison between the Palestinian political movements and "other" secessionist movements in the Baltic states and elsewhere:

quote:
Extending full rights to occupied peoples would be rightly seen as a political attack on their national aspirations. Look at the Baltic states under Soviet occupation, Timor Leste under Indonesia, and many other places.

Double standard for Israeli apologists?

But it is good that you are "explaining" further. Others might see it as backtracking and dissembling but that is generally considered good enough in political circles.

[ 28 December 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cardy
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posted 28 December 2006 08:44 AM      Profile for Cardy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Baltic states were forcibly absorbed into the Soviet Union; they weren't fighting to secede, they were fighting to regain their independence.

You've helped make my point: if your occupied territory is fully absorbed then national aspirations are obscured. You clearly couldn't see them in this case!


From: Kathmandu, Nepal | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 28 December 2006 08:47 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh! So now you are saying that being absorbed into the Soviet Union "obscured" Lithuanian nationalism. Tee hee.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cardy
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posted 28 December 2006 08:55 AM      Profile for Cardy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball, you're being silly. You misrepresented what I said, and now seem to be trying to obscure your lack of knowledge with cryptic clothing references and nonsensical chuckles.

Let me know if you want to talk seriously, perhaps on the Said book you briefly mentioned?


From: Kathmandu, Nepal | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 28 December 2006 09:07 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As I said, your thesis is predicated on the idea that "indivdual rights" can be subordinated to collective right. As I said this idea is more commonly held among fascist cricles -- I exampled this.

The fact remains that whether or not some Palestinians might object to the recognition of the indivdual rights of Palestinians by Israel, as part of a larger plot to undermine the national aspirations of some Palestinians, that in no way mitigates Israel's responsibility to award those rights. As I said before, collective rights rightly flow from indivdual rights, so as to say Palestinian unificationist goals would actually be met by enfranchising Palestinian fully within the Israeli political system.

The idea that such an efranchisment should take place is in fact what Amedinejad indicated when he suggested elections including all people who presently live under Israeli rule, Christians, Muslims and Jews.

Some Fascist.

But there is no end to the torturous extremes that people will go to justify Israeli repression of Palestinians. In this case the arguement is that the Palestinian cause is served by their repression.

Nice.

[ 28 December 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 28 December 2006 10:40 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But Ahmadinejad is a fool and an antisemite. Do you really have to keep defending him whenever you can?
From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 28 December 2006 10:44 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The fact that this board allows you to post here, in no way impugns me.

[ 28 December 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 28 December 2006 10:58 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ha ha! You wish to change the subject! But I was pointing out your constant need to say nice things about Ahmadinejad. So I asked:

"Do you really have to keep defending this antisemite? "


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 28 December 2006 10:59 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, I was pointing out that just because you post here, and the board allows you to post here, does not mean that I am also stupid, or that Judy Rebick is to be considered stupid by association.

[ 28 December 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 28 December 2006 05:23 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Likewise, I would like to know how Amedinejad becomes an objective antisemite through association by providing David Duke a platform to spread his views, while no one seems to be claiming that Larry Flint is an objective antisemite through association because he allowed Hustler Magazine to provide a similar platform.

Hustler Magazine's exposure of David Dukes antisemetism might actually have been socially useful, informative, and important.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
sidra
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posted 28 December 2006 05:38 PM      Profile for sidra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Cueball, you're being silly. -Cardy

I wish I could explore your childhood and find out how you got obsessed with the word "silly" that you dish out ŕ tout vent.

"Get off the potty Sweetie, you are being silly trying to get the shit back into your ass !" Does it ring a bell, Cardy ?


From: Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 28 December 2006 10:34 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This is arguably the first time in history of the Security Council that an entire nation is being punished based not on actual violations of international law, but on pure speculation on the part of some powerful countries, regarding its hypothetical future conduct. As Seymour Hersh reported in The New Yorker, both the CIA and the Israeli intelligence have been unable to substantiate any nuclear weapons program in Iran.

Without the slightest evidence presented by the IAEA that indicates the existence of an Iranian nuclear weapons program, the US and the UK have successfully maneuvered to take Iran’s legitimate rights away and to label Iran a “violator” for resisting this transgression. Let us not forget the lessons of the illegal Iraq invasion, the justification for which followed the same path through the UN Security Council only four years ago.

This is an insult to the institution of the UN and the idea of international diplomacy in general. Peace-seeking people everywhere should recognize this for what it is: a manufactured crisis leading to a military strike and a first step toward a new and even more devastating war in the Middle East.

Sanctions are being justified as a "security concern" of the United States and a handful of other nations, not as being the will of the world community. Even at the Security Council level a unanimous vote has only been made possible after unprecedented political pressure was brought to bear by the US. As the Observer reported last Sunday, the US is giving up to 270% more foreign aid to Security Council members as incentive for them to support US positions.


Statement of The Campaign Against Sanctions and Military Intervention in Iran.

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 30 December 2006 02:43 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Likewise, I would like to know how Amedinejad becomes an objective antisemite through association by providing David Duke a platform to spread his views, while no one seems to be claiming that Larry Flint is an objective antisemite through association because he allowed Hustler Magazine to provide a similar platform.

Hustler Magazine's exposure of David Dukes antisemetism might actually have been socially useful, informative, and important.



If he walks like a duck...

But actually Cue, I agree, he is just misquoted and misunderstood. Actually he is full of ..... love!

Hunukah Greetings from Iran


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Legless-Marine
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posted 30 December 2006 02:55 PM      Profile for Legless-Marine        Edit/Delete Post
Nevermind.

[ 30 December 2006: Message edited by: Legless-Marine ]


From: Calgary | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 02 January 2007 12:14 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Thanks to Ahmadinejad
quote:

Thanks to Ahmadinejad
In convening a study group, Iran's president called attention to sickness of holocaust denial


Max Boot, Special to the Sun
Published: Tuesday, January 02, 2007

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has an impeccable sense of timing. Just a week after the Iraq Study Group recommended a heart-to-heart with him, the president of Iran convened a conference in Tehran to examine whether the Holocaust really occurred. The answer from such "scholars" as David Duke, the notorious former Ku Klux Klan grand wizard, was a resounding no.

On one level, Ahmadinejad's embrace of Holocaust denial might seem surprising. A man who has repeatedly called for Israel to be "wiped off the map" surely has no problem with the murder of Jews. You might expect him to adopt the position espoused by the Egyptian newspaper Al Akhbar, which a few years ago ran an editorial praising Adolf Hitler ("of blessed memory") and complaining only that "his revenge on (the Jews) was not enough."

Or you might expect Ahmadinejad to take the far more common line in the Muslim world, which is to admit that, sure, some Jews died, but it was a lot fewer than 6 million and, anyway, what's the big deal? A lot of Gentiles died, too. What makes these Yids so special? This is the position taken by Arab "moderates" such as Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, whose doctoral dissertation pooh-poohed the figure of 6 million dead Jews ("no one can verify this number") while expressing great concern that "the German people sacrificed 10 million" -- implying that the killers suffered more than their victim ....

Arabs were, on a small scale, cheerleaders and enablers of the Final Solution. The most famous example was Haj Amin Husseini, the grand mufti of Jerusalem (and uncle of Yasser Arafat), who took refuge in Berlin in World War II. A rabid Nazi, he personally lobbied Hitler to kill as many Jews as possible and even helped out by recruiting Bosnian Muslims to serve in the Waffen SS.

Robert Satloff, one of the world's smartest Arabists, reveals other links between the Arabs and the Holocaust in his groundbreaking new book, Among the Righteous: Lost Stories From the Holocaust's Long Reach Into Arab Lands. He shows how the Nazis set up the machinery of death in North Africa. Although "only" 4,000 to 5,000 Jews died before the Allies liberated the area in 1943, many more were consigned to forced labor camps in hellish conditions."Arabs played a role at every level," Satloff wrote. "Some went door to door with the Germans, pointing out Jews for arrest. Others led Jewish workers on forced marches or served as overseers at labor camps."



From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 January 2007 12:29 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, but how does this purpoted proposal for the extermination of the Jews of Israel sit with his statement that their should be a vote among all person living in Palestine, Muslims Christian and Jews, as to who should govern? Or is it that some journalists only think certain quotes of Amedinejad are worth rehashing.

I myself have been accused of being an objective antisemite for suggesting such a solution, since, the unified secular state solution de facto means the end of the "Jewish state, according to Zionist theolgians," though I certainly don't believe that entail a pogrom. Quite the opposite frankly.

In fact, it seems to me that his comparison between the collapse of the USSR, and the future of Israel indicates a rather gentler approach than your pundit is making out. Isn't it the case that the USSR collapsed because it was unjust and corrupt, not through force of arms -- because of its own internal contradictions, so to speak.

Interestingly, when I saw your post I was just reviewing some document relating to the Lehi group during the 1940's. I suppose, one should be cautious about how much meaning one should attach to past Nazi associations, and how they reflect on the whole of the group. Just because there are now Jewish people living in Israel, whose father and grandfathers thought there might some milage gained through making an alliance with the Nazi's does not, in and of itself, mean that Nazi ideology permiates Zionist Israel.

[ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 02 January 2007 12:44 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
Thanks to Ahmadinejad

That's a smear job of high order, and frankly an irresponsible use of Holocaust history. Boot could have simply spoken of antisemitism in Arab countries , etc. but chose to do a smear job on Palestinians with a decontextualised reference to the Grand Mufti's wartime activities.

Cueball is right, how much should we make of wartime Nazi alliances now, in 2007?


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 02 January 2007 12:47 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
You can't attribute logic to an illogical individual. To do so is crazy-making!

And the article's point (i believe)to criticize Iran's president's denial, current antisemitism in that region and also indicate that many Arab nations were not so innocent during WWII.
A sentiment that our friend in Iran was trying to capitalize on. Interestingly, from reading Iranian news and talking to Iranian friends, there was not much interest in the conference (many Iranians said "we know it took place. So What?")or the cartoon exhibition.

[ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 January 2007 12:50 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have no problem with asserting that Amedinejad is populist political manipulator, who is no doubt playing to Persian and Muslim anti-Israeli paranoia. But so far, I see nothing to suggest he is a European type anti-semite who likes to play with Nazi paraphenalia when he is at home and looking in the mirror.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 02 January 2007 12:53 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:
That's a smear job of high order, and frankly an irresponsible use of Holocaust history.

I totally agree. Iran's President is irresponsible.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 02 January 2007 12:55 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cue:

I don't think we will ever know (at least not now) what his true beliefs or intentions are. I personally believe he just wants to hang onto power any way he can.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 January 2007 12:59 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well there you go. So, Amedinejad is just another politician playing on traditional xenophobia as a means of terrorizing the population of Iran, not necessarily an ideologically motivated nutcase willing to destroy his own people for the sake of "the cause" like Adolph Hitler.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 02 January 2007 01:03 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cue:

I am not so sure that he is just another "innocent" politician. I think we need to be very watchful of him and the antics. As I recall from my German friends, Hitler was not taken seriously, at first.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 02 January 2007 01:04 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
You can't attribute logic to an illogical individual. To do so is crazy-making!

And the article's point (i believe)to criticize Iran's president's denial, current antisemitism in that region and also indicate that many Arab nations were not so innocent during WWII.
A sentiment that our friend in Iran was trying to capitalize on. Interestingly, from reading Iranian news and talking to Iranian friends, there was not much interest in the conference (many Iranians said "we know it took place. So What?")or the cartoon exhibition.

[ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: Peech ]


But doesn't that let some of the air out of Boot's balloon? He makes much of popular antisemitism in the Muslim world, connecting it to wartime Nazi affiliation, and yet your anecdotal evidence suggests that perhaps it is less prevalent then Boot might think, at least in Iran. I have no problem with calling attention to Holocaust Denial
but Boot seems to making a general characterisation of political culture in the Arab/Muslim world. Do you not see the disconnect between his piece and what you've heard yourself?


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 January 2007 01:09 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
Cue:

I am not so sure that he is just another "innocent" politician. I think we need to be very watchful of him and the antics. As I recall from my German friends, Hitler was not taken seriously, at first.


Well, people should have paid closer attention to Mein Kempf. It was all there in black and white.

Again, the theme that Amedinejad is some kind reconstitued Nazi psychopath is contradicted by statement from Amedinejad himself. The suggestion of general elections including all persons living in what Amedinejad prefers to call Palestine, being a prime example.

[ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 02 January 2007 01:10 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Look I think there is a lot of hyperbole in the article. However I have always been very concerned by the depth of anti-Jewish and Holocaust denying in that region as evidenced by, the books sold (Mein Kemp, the Protocols,) their TV ("The Horsemen" was and adaptation of the Protocols) and the editorial in the Egyptian paper he refers to. Look at Abas' history?It's (unfortunately) too easy to connect the dots especially when a powerful nation such as Iran acts the way it has. However I think many educated ones in those regions are not believers. However hatred knows no boundary.
From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 02 January 2007 01:11 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cue: You're going to hang onto that "election call" stuff aren't you? OK well I'll hang onto his call for Israel's destruction or disappearance or wiping off the map.

Hopefully one day their will be a revolution in Iran .
It's a nation that has a lot to offer, culturally, historically etc. A great people!

[ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 January 2007 01:14 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The west called for the disappearance of the Soviet Union, almost from day one. This does not mean that Churchill envisioned the destruction of the Russian people.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 January 2007 01:16 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is however, an bit of a evangelical taint to Amedniejad that some of my Iranian friends are aware of, and that seems more of an issue than the "National Socialist" thing. I think that Amedinejad's racism, is founded in more traditional Islamic forms based in Dhimitude, which can manifest itself more postively as a kind of mulitculturalism, or more negatively as Apartheid.

I think it is also important to remember that much of Hitler's credibility was enhanced by a German sense of being wronged by the Treaty of Versaille. The fact is that there was much truth to this sense of wrong. Therefore, if we are to take lessons from the past, I think we should consider that the best way to undermine this kind of populism is remove the source of the sense of wrong.

Israel therefore, should be more tractable in dealing with the Palestinian issue.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 02 January 2007 01:17 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Specifically, Peech, his conclusion:

quote:
Worse, while Europe has disowned its terrible history, the Nazis continue to be glorified in the Middle East. (Mein Kampf is a perennial best-seller in the region.) Nowhere else in the world is Holocaust denial so prevalent. Ahmadinejad deserves thanks for calling the world's attention to this pervasive sickness.

I find this logic fascinating. First of all, is anyone who owns a copy of Mein Kampf an antisemite who "glorifies" the Nazis? I own a copy, as I think any serious student of 20th Century "Western" political culture must. Anyway, the point is that Boot is trying to move from the Holocaust to today, but provides nothing more than sales of Mein Kampf to back up the smear that the Nazis are "glorified" amongst Arabs and Muslims.

I think that should give us pause about his intentions. Unsubstantiated claims about Nazi glorification are equivalent to their supposed "opposite" - i.e. baseless claims about Jews and their "Evil" activities. The space between what is true and what you call Boot's "hyperbole" is very important.

[ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 02 January 2007 02:14 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cue:
You are a true idealist. With all due respect, historically the Palestinian cause has been used as a soccer ball or pawns by Hussein, Egypt, Saudi Arabia nad now Iran. If (and I truly hope it happens soon) the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is settled, Iran and other nations' vehement ideology will not dissipate. In other words that is not the source but mere fuel or fodder for this hatred. I truly have come to believe it's a culture clash. A clash of civilizations not to mention that a Jewish state will never be tolerated or accepted in the Middle East.

From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 January 2007 02:15 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Certainly it will not be tollerated if it insists on making 3.5 million people live under martial law, through foreign occupation.

Why should that be tollerated?

You know of course Huntington the guy who wrote all that guff about the "Clash of Civilization," also supported forced urbanization of the Vietnamese, as means of neutralizing the Viet Cong:

quote:
In the light of recent events, this statement needs to be seriously qualified. For if the "direct application of mechanical and conventional power" takes place on such a massive scale as to produce a massive migration from countryside to city, the basic assumptions underlying the Maoist doctrine of revolutionary war no longer operate. The Maoist-inspired rural revolution is undercut by the American-sponsored urban revolution.

I know fascism when I see it. And Huntignton is, based on the written record, far more of a fascist Social Darwinist than Amedinejad.

[ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 02 January 2007 02:25 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Certainly it will not be tollerated if it insists on making 3.5 million people live under martial law, through foreign occupation.

Why should that be tollerated?

You know of course "Huntington" the guy who wrote all that guff about the Clash of Civilization," also supported forced urbanization of the Vietnamese, as means of neutralizing the Viet Cong.

[ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


I agree nor should missiles, bombs etc be tolerated. There has to be a "negotiated" agreement. Unilateral withdrawal has proved to be completely counterproductive as illustrated by Lebanon and the Gaza which have become de facto arms encampments and minefields.

My point dear Cue is that assume there is peace. Even after that monumental accomplishment a Jewish state will NOT be tolerated.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 January 2007 02:28 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There has been no withdrawal. Gaza is merely the Warsaw Ghetto Redux.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 02 January 2007 02:33 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:
Specifically, Peech, his conclusion:

I think that should give us pause about his intentions. Unsubstantiated claims about Nazi glorification are equivalent to their supposed "opposite" - i.e. baseless claims about Jews and their "Evil" activities. The space between what is true and what you call Boot's "hyperbole" is very important.

[ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


I accept your argument. However I think what is troubling is th question "why is there a culture of aantisemitism, Holocaust denying, and otherwise hatred toward Jews" in those nations? Cue would say (and I am assuming you might agree) that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is the root cause. I am saying although it may be a contributing factor it is not the cause of this phenomena no matter what the extent of it is.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 02 January 2007 02:33 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
There has been no withdrawal. Gaza is merely the Warsaw Ghetto Redux.

You're avoiding my argument. Address the issue I raised, please.

[ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 January 2007 02:34 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think you're deliberately baiting with that statement, Cueball. Why do that when most people on babble would already agree that you have the moral high road in this argument?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 January 2007 02:42 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think its baiting at all.

A large population is being confined to an urban ghetto based on their racial origin and religious origin. They are being prevented from engaging in productive labour, or freely pursuing economic activities, outside of a limited framework enforced by an army that controls all the exits to and from the urban area.

Likewise the population is being further punished by having access to aid from outside organization cut off, while the IDF freely assumes the right to enter into the ghetto in order to quell any opposition.

How does that objectively differ from the circumstance of the Ghetto?

Hell, Israel even forcibly moves (deports) persons from the West Bank into Gaza. This policy has been upheld by the highest courts in Israel.

[ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 January 2007 02:59 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:

You're avoiding my argument. Address the issue I raised, please.


Your arguement is aserted, not proven. Therefore you have not made an arguement.

My arguement is based on the fact that Israel was inserted into the Middle East without the permission or even reasonable consultation with the persons living in the region already. This insertion was accomplished through bureacratic fiat, not a plebicite.

Therefore there has never been a situation where Israel has not been a hostile and agressive party to the conflicts that it had engendered. The creation of Israel was indeed theft, and it was followed immediatly by a mass eviction of 700,000 people.

The people evicted, quite rightly rejected the eviction.

All future conflicts resulted from this criminal act. In other words, Israel has never given a reason to suggest that it should be tollerated, despite being given numerous opportunites to do so.

Chiefly, Yasser Arafat's acceptance of the principle of partition in 1994, a surrender of 70% of the territory originally claimed by both parties. Yet Israel used this opportunity to expand settlement activity importing 400,000 new citizens to the West Bank over a period of 6 years, in a well publicized effort to "change the facts on the ground."

Israel merely had to cease settlement activity as a sign of good faith to show that it could behave in a tollerable manner. No Israeli govenrment took up this challenge neither Likud nor the ILP. They took advantage of the relative calm, and tractable Palestinian leadership to push their advantage.

[ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 02 January 2007 03:23 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Bye Bye Cue.
From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 January 2007 03:24 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Which means of course you can not, and refuse to rebut the fact that Israel conciously continued to export its citizens to the disputed areas even while "final status" agreement was being negotiated.

Cheers.

[ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 02 January 2007 04:27 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Not at all. It just means I refuse to get sucked into you dictating the scope and terms of the debate (in case you haven't already got the message.)
From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 January 2007 05:33 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You raised the point. It was that Israel will never be tollerated in the Middle East. Tollerance is not merely a god givern right, it stems from concrete evidence that such tollerance is justified. On what basis do you assert Israel has the right to be tollerated.

More specifically what has it done, ever, that justifies tollerance?

The only thing, frankly, that I can think of is the 1975 Camp David accords, and in the case of Egypt, which has steadfastly stood by Anwar Sadat's (btw another WW2 Nazi sympathizer) peace agreement, Arabs have proven that they are willing to stand by their commitments, when brokered in a fair manner. Quite the contrary to your assertion.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 02 January 2007 06:32 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball I think you are in error
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

The only thing, frankly, that I can think of is the 1975 Camp David accords, and in the case of Egypt, which has steadfastly stood by Anwar Sadat's ( [/i]

The Camp David Accords were signed by Egyptian President Anwar Sadat and Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin on September 17, 1978, following twelve days of secret negotiations at Camp David.


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 02 January 2007 08:59 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cue:

The problem that I have in "debating" you on any issue surrounding ME politics is everything is brought back by you to the fundamentally flawed assumption that Israel is the root cause of all the problems.That it was created illegally and acted illegally etc.etc.

Quite frankly (apart from your inaccurate historical interpretation) it is completely counterproductive as it is just blame.

I say so what do you have to offer for a resolution other than putting the tooth paste back in the tube?

To go on an on in this "debate" with you is the dictionary definition of insanity.

[ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Centerfield
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posted 04 January 2007 10:46 AM      Profile for Centerfield        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
Cue:

The problem that I have in "debating" you on any issue surrounding ME politics is everything is brought back by you to the fundamentally flawed assumption that Israel is the root cause of all the problems.That it was created illegally and acted illegally etc.etc.

Quite frankly (apart from your inaccurate historical interpretation) it is completely counterproductive as it is just blame.

I say so what do you have to offer for a resolution other than putting the tooth paste back in the tube?

To go on an on in this "debate" with you is the dictionary definition of insanity.

[ 02 January 2007: Message edited by: Peech ]


quote:
I say so what do you have to offer for a resolution other than putting the tooth paste back in the tube?

I agree.

Perhaps a good flossing,or cleansing.


From: Ontario | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 04 January 2007 11:29 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The problem is, peech, you are impervious to the simple truth that it is the occupation, stupid, and that Israeli policy, is founded upon racism, sectarianism, and expansion. Israel is tolerated in the middle-east to the same degree that a neighbourhood thug is tolerated in the neighbourhood. Let Israel end the occupation, return to the '67 borders, and then become the partner for peace it has never been. At that time judge Arab reaction.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 January 2007 11:34 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by miles:
Cueball I think you are in error

The Camp David Accords were signed by Egyptian President Anwar Sadat and Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin on September 17, 1978, following twelve days of secret negotiations at Camp David.


You are correct, I am in error. Yet the point remains that the only hard evidence that exists regarding wether or not Israel could be "tollerated" in the Middle East, is yes, and this has been proven to be so, as Egypt has never breeched the accord.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Centerfield
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posted 04 January 2007 11:51 AM      Profile for Centerfield        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
The problem is, peech, you are impervious to the simple truth that it is the occupation, stupid, and that Israeli policy, is founded upon racism, sectarianism, and expansion. Israel is tolerated in the middle-east to the same degree that a neighbourhood thug is tolerated in the neighbourhood. Let Israel end the occupation, return to the '67 borders, and then become the partner for peace it has never been. At that time judge Arab reaction.


quote:
Israel is tolerated in the middle-east to the same degree that a neighbourhood thug is tolerated in the neighbourhood

And even children are aware of this.Let's make sure the hatred is infested into the next generation.

Great way to solve the killings of thousands of innocent children and there parents.What a future they have.


http://www.pmw.org.il/tv.html


From: Ontario | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 January 2007 11:55 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So what? If I were to collect together every single nasty thing ever written or filmed or posted on the web by Israel's I could produce just the same kind of racist portrait of Israel.

And that is what that is Centerfield. That is selective journalism toward the end of promoting a racist depiction of Arabs.

And you are pomoting racism, here.

[ 04 January 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 04 January 2007 02:47 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So what? If I were to collect together every single nasty thing ever written or filmed or posted on the web by Israel's I could produce just the same kind of racist portrait of Israel.

Why bother? Israel is expresses its open racism everyday with the occupation.

quote:

And you are pomoting racism, here.



It would seem so.

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Centerfield
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posted 05 January 2007 11:56 AM      Profile for Centerfield        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
So what? If I were to collect together every single nasty thing ever written or filmed or posted on the web by Israel's I could produce just the same kind of racist portrait of Israel.

And that is what that is Centerfield. That is selective journalism toward the end of promoting a racist depiction of Arabs.

And you are pomoting racism, here.

[ 04 January 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


quote:
And you are pomoting racism, here.

No,just a reality check.

Sadly you once again deflect from the real problem,the future of the next generations of Israeli and Palestinian children.

But from your own words "So what" it's quite clear you have no resolve other than total removal of all Jews from Israel.How this could be possible is beyond anyones comprehension,perhaps you could enlighten us, as how you would go about this monumental task.And how many more millions would have to die to achieve this.

What an opportunity to use the word:

Assinine

quote:
1 : extremely or utterly foolish
2 : of, relating to, or resembling an ass


From: Ontario | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 05 January 2007 12:26 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To describe yourself? Yes.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 05 January 2007 02:21 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Centerfield:
But from your own words "So what" it's quite clear you have no resolve other than total removal of all Jews from Israel.How this could be possible is beyond anyones comprehension,perhaps you could enlighten us, as how you would go about this monumental task.And how many more millions would have to die to achieve this.

No. You are right I am not really interested in "think of the children" hysterics. I am interested in facts.

As for the racists slander you are promoting here, I have explained it. I will do so again: If I were to build a web site that specifically drew together every possible negative thing ever said by any Israeli, and then sugested that this was truly refelctive of what Israelis were like, I would be distorting the image of Israelis toward a racists end.

This is precisely what this anti-Arab hate sight you have referred to here does.

[ 05 January 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Centerfield
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posted 06 January 2007 03:24 PM      Profile for Centerfield        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No. You are right I am not really interested in "think of the children" hysterics.

Exactly.

And your resolve to get rid of the Jews out of Israel would be ?


From: Ontario | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Centerfield
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posted 06 January 2007 03:26 PM      Profile for Centerfield        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
To describe yourself? Yes.


And your resolve to get rid of the Jews out of Israel would be ?


From: Ontario | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 06 January 2007 03:37 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And your resolve to get rid of the Jews out of Israel would be ?

Without an intellectual argument you revert to smears? I do believe that is a violation of babble policy, is it not?

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 06 January 2007 03:56 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, it's called malicious trolling. Maybe Michelle will be kind enough to give him one more chance to Stop putting hateful words in other people's mouths.
From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Centerfield
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posted 06 January 2007 04:17 PM      Profile for Centerfield        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

Without an intellectual argument you revert to smears? I do believe that is a violation of babble policy, is it not?

Sixty years of this hatred is enough don't ya think.How can we educate the next generation of Israli and Palestinian children to stop this fighting ?
Hate propaganda from both sides is not giving any future to anyone except for more endless violence,don't you agree.

At some point we have to forget the past and move forward.

The Zionists are not leaving period.

Unless you can tell me how this can be achieved.


From: Ontario | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 06 January 2007 04:21 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Then perhaps you can do your part to end the hate propaganda by not extending it to here.

Judaism does not equal Zionism by the way. You can be a Zionist without being Jewish and you can be Jewish without being Zionist.

[ 06 January 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Legless-Marine
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posted 06 January 2007 05:27 PM      Profile for Legless-Marine        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Centerfield:


And your resolve to get rid of the Jews out of Israel would be ?


That's a rather odd thing to say. There are many possible solutions - What do you hope to achieve by suggesting such an extreme one?


From: Calgary | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
Centerfield
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posted 06 January 2007 06:45 PM      Profile for Centerfield        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Legless-Marine:

That's a rather odd thing to say. There are many possible solutions - What do you hope to achieve by suggesting such an extreme one?



Of course it's ridiculous,it would be impossible to achieve.
That's my point,the only solution is to teach the next generation not to hate and then we can possibly find peace.
If the children are being taught hate propaganda on either side it's not going to help is it.

But sadly some disagree with this solution and would rather continue the fight at any cost.
So I ask what is the alternative.

Do you agree that there is hate propaganda being taught to the children on both sides ?


From: Ontario | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3322

posted 06 January 2007 07:22 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
the only solution is to teach the next generation not to hate and then we can possibly find peace.

Really? That's all then? No word about the brutal occupation? Your solution to the Middle East violence is a Whitney Houston song? "I believe the children are the future. Teach them well and let them lead the way. Show them all the beauty they possess inside. Give them a sense of pride, to make it easier. Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be."


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Legless-Marine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13423

posted 06 January 2007 07:31 PM      Profile for Legless-Marine        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Centerfield:

Of course it's ridiculous,it would be impossible to achieve.

Achievability aside, it's very insulting for you to suggest that Jewish Extermination is the desire of those who advocate Palestinian rights.


quote:
Originally posted by Centerfield:
That's my point,the only solution is to teach the next generation not to hate and then we can possibly find peace.
If the children are being taught hate propaganda on either side it's not going to help is it.

You fellatiously suggest that propaganda is the root of violence. I would suggest that violence is the source of violence, and that kids in Gaza are learning far more about violence from Israeli airstrikes than they are from "propaganda". Kids in the West Bank learn to hate by seeing their homes bulldozed, and having their arms broken when they throw rocks at tanks. Most children have had a parent or uncle tortured in an Israeli jail. Who needs "terror TV" when you've got the IDF doing PR right on your doorstep?

quote:
Originally posted by Centerfield:

But sadly some disagree with this solution and would rather continue the fight at any cost.

When the Cowboys came to North America, the Injuns had no choice but to "fight at any cost". It wasn't a matter of desire, but of being backed into a corner, and of survival. Same for the Palestinians. There are countless parallels between the European colonization of North America, and the Jewish colonization of Palestine.


quote:
Originally posted by Centerfield:

So I ask what is the alternative.

The economic and political isolation of Israel until it has no choice but to play nice, and stop forcing Palestinians off of their land into concentration camps.


quote:
Originally posted by Centerfield:
Do you agree that there is hate propaganda being taught to the children on both sides ?

Agreement or disagreement aside, I find that discussion so facile and disconnected from the true dynamics in play that I couldn't be bothered to discuss it. Perhaps you will find others here with the patience - Although I get the feeling that you've used most of that up.

In general, centerfield, I find your take on Israel/Palestine quite facile and superficial.

I get a sense that most of the users here are frustrated in attempts to dialogue with you, as there is too large of a gap between your understanding of the conflict, and the predominant understanding here.


From: Calgary | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 06 January 2007 07:37 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Achievability aside, it's very insulting for you to suggest that Jewish Extermination is the desire of those who advocate Palestinian rights.

I agree. It's also against babble policy. Keep it up and you'll be looking for a new board, Centrefield.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Centerfield
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13025

posted 06 January 2007 08:31 PM      Profile for Centerfield        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

I agree. It's also against babble policy. Keep it up and you'll be looking for a new board, Centrefield.


Not sure how the word extermination was derived from this

quote:
And your resolve to get rid of the Jews out of Israel would be ?

This was in response to cueballs reply

quote:
No. You are right I am not really interested in "think of the children" hysterics

I found this to be quite offensive.So I wanted to know how would it ever be possible for the people of Israel to move to a new home somewhere else.

My record shows I have taken both sides of the issue and was trying to discuss a resolve.

My comments were misinterpreted and I apologize for that(Though I think it was deliberate).

Won't put you in the middle Michelle,so I will move on for a cool off time.

Later.


quote:
Originally posted by 500_Apples:

Speaking as one of the more pro-israel people on this board, it is my uninformed opinion that due to that last factor, the peace process ball is currently in Israel's court.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I find it deceitful and distracting to even discuss any kind of a peace process. This is not a "misunderstanding" that can be resolved with some good negotiation and getting the right people in a room together.

This is premeditated ethnic cleansing, implemented by racists who claim to be acting in God's will (Legless-Marine)


Hope you don't mind if I quote you 500_Apples,I needed to make a point. Thanks.

[ 06 January 2007: Message edited by: Centerfield ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8273

posted 06 January 2007 09:03 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Legless-Marine:
You fellatiously suggest that propaganda is the root of violence.
Yes, this is an all too common phallusy.

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 06 January 2007 09:07 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
100!
From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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