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» babble   » walking the talk   » anti-racism news and initiatives   » So-Called AR Forum Needs a Change

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Author Topic: So-Called AR Forum Needs a Change
Makwa
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posted 02 June 2008 09:49 AM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have not yet figured out how to bring it about, nor what the implementation might be, but the AR form is so moribund, so inconsequential, so unimportant and so ineffective, that something must change. We must address why few first nations people and people of colour are willing to participate here. I suggest that it is the history of conflict and hostility that has been largely the office of white babblers. I am considering, would the AR forum work better were it similar to the feminist forum, largely devoted to people within the particular discourse? Perhaps we need more POC and FN only threads, perhaps a majority of them?

For now, this thread is open to all, but if it becomes the typical shit fest, it will be closed to self identified FN and POC only.

Do contribute, as you would, please.

To add: I'm getting tired of little bits of news tidbits from around the world and all - we have things to deal with here too, believe it or not. I would like to see this forum become relevant for a change.

[ 02 June 2008: Message edited by: Makwa ]


From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 02 June 2008 10:43 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was personally involved in the anti-apartheid movement. At the time, that movement got a lot more sympathetic media coverage and more non-native activists than FN solidarity or general anti-racist organizations did. It was a struggle to bring non-natives to the point where they viewed the anti-racism struggle here in Canada as important as that same struggle in other continents or countries. The obvious link for me, personally, was my understanding of colonialism and imperialism; however, not every anti-racist activist looked at the world the way I did and therefore didn't automatically make the connection. There are also those who have a political interest in seeing anti-racist struggles divided; let's not kid ourselves as to what ideas are typically manufactured for public consumption in our society.

Perhaps this is just a characteristic of left discourse in an imperialist country like Canada. The ruling ideas are, well, successful in getting the left, like everyone else, to focus our attention on problems elsewhere ... rather than on what's nearest to us.

What would make POC and FN want to participate in a discussion board like babble? A generally progressive forum that is moderated ... that's what babble offers. So, I would say, go ahead and model this forum on the feminist forum. It might just be a good thing.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
remind
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Babbler # 6289

posted 02 June 2008 11:05 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree, run it like the FF, I try to mainly, these days, just read the FN and ARF for the information provided.
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 June 2008 11:08 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well I don't know what to do about it frankly. I'd be fine with not posting in this forum, if you think that it would help. Many times I post just in order to bring the forum, or a topic that has been brought up in it to the top of the TAT. A few of the discussions we have had about what is racism interested me directly.

That said, perhaps there are ways that the forum itself could be highlighted from the main board. Perhaps the main board could do more to feature articles by Canadian First Nations or Non-white political writers. Yourself for instance. These articles could then be fed into the discussions that happen here, to create more profile.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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posted 02 June 2008 11:43 AM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well I don't know what to do about it frankly. I'd be fine with not posting in this forum, if you think that it would help.
Thus far, I'm asking the question: what do you think would help? If you think not posting would help, give it a shot. I just hope that`s not a martyr symbol.

Upon reflection, and some feedback, I don`t want that to sound unkind, but you do realize I never opened the topic by asking people not to post. To make that the first point seems needlessly confrontational.

[ 02 June 2008: Message edited by: Makwa ]


From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 June 2008 11:50 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No. That is just a the straight story. I don't have a need to post here, in this forum. Nor do I think not posting here would be a violation of my inaliable rights or whatever.

By the way I sent you a PM.

To the edit: Well, it wasn't meant to be confrontational, though past experience has shown me that it can be, so I addressed it directly. I concluded with what I thought was a positive suggestion about general visibility and about ways of making the forum more engaged with things outside of the forum itself.

[ 02 June 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 02 June 2008 12:09 PM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Modeled on the FF sounds good to me.

quote:
Perhaps we need more POC and FN only threads, perhaps a majority of them?
For now, this thread is open to all, but if it becomes the typical shit fest, it will be closed to self identified FN and POC only.

I support this in principle.

Presumably you've thought about the practical side. The biggest one being that there are plenty of self identified feminists on this board to start with, especially when you throw in the lurkers who can be lured out.

I don't know how many POC and FN persons who would still stomach even reading posts here, so there might be crtical mass issues. On the other hand, it might be easy to recruit them if it could be demostrated that it has changed.

And if it won't change without flat out closing posting on the whole forum to any but self-identified FN and POC, by all means go for it.

If that's what it takes, it doesn't need to be final. We can always try again having some threads open to all. Though my guess is that some open and some not opens a lot of moderating cans of worms.

First things first- the moderating issues alone are enough reason that if the threads are not both civil and encouraging of POC/FN particpation, then close the forum to all but the self-identified. Just reading the threads will be an education for the excluded.

Hey, maybe that's reason enough to close the forum to others- for the good of their education.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 02 June 2008 12:26 PM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Makwa, I support you, you know I do. I think what you've suggested is a great idea.

KenS please check your PMs.


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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posted 02 June 2008 12:26 PM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
To the edit: Well, it wasn't meant to be confrontational, though past experience has shown me that it can be, so I addressed it directly. I concluded with what I thought was a positive suggestion about general visibility and about ways of making the forum more engaged with things outside of the forum itself.
Sorry. Havn't the merest clue.

From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
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posted 02 June 2008 12:35 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Makwa, I stand behind you. Quietly, for the most part.

I have been deeply disheartened by the number of marginalized posters who've been driven away from babble by a pretty relentless dominant, privileged, unknowingly bullying and far too often oblivious culture here.

You give me great hope.


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 02 June 2008 02:44 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
1. I don't think enough babblers even consider it their duty to welcome newcomers. This is a bigger issue that just for POC.

2. More articles and so on from FN and POC would be a good basis for discussion that would flow from those articles, etc.

3. What about checking out other FN discussion boards? That could be educational. Furthermore, it may very well be that many people don't even know about babble.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Slumberjack
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posted 02 June 2008 05:09 PM      Profile for Slumberjack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps a little tweaking of the culture would be appropriate. The regular Babble contributors are quite familar with each other, however others may find it difficult to see their honest ideas and thoughts smacked down by the established ones.
I agree with Makwa's point regarding the purpose AR forum. Personally I don't see it as a place that I need to dwell in, except from a read only, educational perspective. A new vision statement for that forum might help to bring some focus as to what it should be about, and who it is specifically intended for. People who are affected by the typical issues of that forum would be in the best position to formulate such a statement.
The rest of us white people might do well not to interfere in the AR forum with commentary that is insensitive to the experiences of others, stemming from a lack of understanding and knowledge of the issues hidden by the dominant society around us. Although a progressive would not necessarily have any purposeful intent to offer harmful remarks, we needn't expect others to tolerate our ignorance. There must exist some place at least where we haven't taken over.

From: An Intensive De-Indoctrination, But I'm Fine Now | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 02 June 2008 05:56 PM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In the spirit in which this thread was started I'd like to offer some comments which I'm making a deliberate effort to frame as nicely as possible. I say these things as the ex-mod, and also as someone who's dedicated the last 15 years of my professional life to the work of anti-racism and anti-oppression education and training.

First, the idea that Makwa is only referring to new babblers or lurkers. He's not. One very large problem in progressive circles is white people who think they get it, but don't. Or, don't get it to the degree that they think they do. It's very hard for the POC to bring up as we know the response we're liekly to get. It can be touchy and become personal for the white person who's framed him- or herself as an ally, anti-racist, whatever, and is in fact, not doing that. I have listed a gajillion references to Being An Ally 101, please check them out if you think this might be you. And hell, even if you don't.

Second, a real life example of this is N.Beltov's #1. This conversation is about POC and FN people on babble. Full stop, no apology, no explanation. I don't disagree with point #1; I feel it's not appropriate, in a thread like this, which is meant to focus on the needs of POC and FN lurkers/posters/future posters in this forum. I think it should become okay to say "take that to another forum" without anyone taking offense.

Third, as I said, I've taken specific efforts to be polite and nice. This won't always be possible, and won't always be okay for someone who's really ticked off at something an alleged progressive person has said. Over and over, the fab women in the FF (of which I'm one, sometimes) have said "we don't have to be polite, we don't have to keep saying you who are the nice men aren't included when we say male violence is sickening, it takes energy and effort to say this and we don't always want to and why should we anyways, etc". Can the AR forum be like that? Is it possible?

Fourth, I think the AR forum should be open to real, sincere and struggling newbies or oldies who are really working through issues and need to ask some basic 101 questions. I think only the moderator should moderate. Trolls are generally easy to spot, even when they pose as sincere newbies. I will own that I've not always been as tolerant as I'm proposing that we all be now, and that was a mistake.

Lastly, I'd like to request that nobody refer to the anti-racist forum as ARF.


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
sanizadeh
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Babbler # 14787

posted 02 June 2008 07:37 PM      Profile for sanizadeh        Edit/Delete Post
My question is that if the AR forum is re-focused on FN and POC issues, wouldn't that create an unnecessary overlap with the aboriginal forum? Right now if one is looking for a specific topic or piece of news on FN issues, can easily check the aboriginal forum. Having two forums makes that search a little more difficult.

Also while no doubt the FN and POC issues are historically the most important issues regarding racism in North America, racism does not always have to be limited to those categories and is not always directly related to colonialism. Being an ethnic minority is not the same as being a POC. Take a typical white muslim (Persian, Turk or Arab) from the middle east. Neither an FN nor POC in the skin color sense (we are not considered visible minorities according to stat can). But can you deny there is quite a bit of racism against this group? How about anti-semitism against Jews who are not POC either? Could a poor, white polish immigrant who does not speak English be possibly more subject to racism (in an airport, for instance) than a Harward educated black lawyer? I think the wall between "immigrants" and "Canadians" (black, white or native) is part of the racism issue too.

I would like to suggest that the term "ethnic minority" is more inclusive of immigrants and reflects better todays facts on racism, than a specific term like "people of color". It would be great if the AR forum maintains a wider focus on racism issues.

My humble 2 cents.


From: Ontario | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged
Seddig
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Babbler # 15052

posted 08 June 2008 09:01 AM      Profile for Seddig     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oo I agree with changes to the Anti-racism board whole heartedly. An anti-racism board is suppose to be a place that people of colour and Aboriginal peoples discuss issues of racism and exchange ideas and connect with each other. It is not supped to be a place for white folks to impose power and demand explanation and expect for people of colour and Aboriginal Peoples to prove themselves to white people or seek their approval.

I have tried to convince people of colour and Aboriginal peoples (specially youth) to come on forum and discuss issues and connect with others and get more support for the issues that they are working on. Most people don’t like this idea after reading some of the anti-racism threads on this forum and other forums and saw attacks on people of colour and Aboriginal Peoples. A true anti-racism board doesn’t make people feel this way. In fact it makes people feel that there is a place they can discuss issues without getting attacked. We get attacked when we speak up in daily life and if we are getting attacked on an anti-racism board them what is the difference?
I support your move Makwa and will be happy to help in any way.

[ 08 June 2008: Message edited by: Seddig ]


From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Seddig
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posted 08 June 2008 09:12 AM      Profile for Seddig     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by sanizadeh:

Take a typical white muslim (Persian, Turk or Arab) from the middle east. Neither an FN nor POC in the skin color sense (we are not considered visible minorities according to stat can).

A lot of times Turks are not considered as "visible minority" or as people of colour because Turky is part of Europe but Arabs and Persian? I know some persian and Arabs whose colour of skin is lighter but they are not considered as white. any official form that I have seen consider them as "visible minority" as well.


From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Slumberjack
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Babbler # 10108

posted 08 June 2008 10:37 AM      Profile for Slumberjack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Seddig:
Oo I agree with changes to the Anti-racism board whole heartedly.........I support your move Makwa and will be happy to help in any way.
[ 08 June 2008: Message edited by: Seddig ]

What changes? What move? Have I missed something here? There's no changes or moves afoot that I can detect at least. Makwa says he's tired of the world news encroaching into AR issues. Well, the world is where racist crap happens on a continuous basis. People are gun shy about coming here to generate topics of interest out of fear that it will turn into the usual slugfest. How about some moderator led discussions for a change, proactively generate the topics that are at the core of what is supposed to be discussed here, lead it by example, and then mod the shit fests when they arise. If the point is to make this forum relevant again, the first question to ask is 'relevent to whom?' To the moderator? Do AR forum topics require that the mod is personally interested in the discussion, or have a personal stake in the issue, to make it relevent? I would urge the proprieters here to get back in the saddle, open it up again to all racism related matters everywhere, facilitate, take control and moderate it when required, not just to shut down interesting threads because someone got out of line. Proactively promote this important discussion area. And oh, btw, do keep out the white posters, starting with me if need be, unless they come with an pre-existing knowledge base and are willing to learn more, and not to inconsiderately challenge the people who want to relate experiences and ideas. A tall order, I know.


From: An Intensive De-Indoctrination, But I'm Fine Now | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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Babbler # 10724

posted 09 June 2008 07:10 AM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Slumberjack:
Makwa says he's tired of the world news encroaching into AR issues. Well, the world is where racist crap happens on a continuous basis.
If you feel the need to make such a declaration, do at least have the nads to provide some documentation, perhaps a quote or a link? And please don't bait me with 'keep out the white posters' crap. You will have to get a lot more sophisticated than that to get under my skin, red as it might be. BTW, do you want to extend that 'saddle' metaphor, hm?

[ 09 June 2008: Message edited by: Makwa ]


From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Slumberjack
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Babbler # 10108

posted 09 June 2008 07:37 AM      Profile for Slumberjack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Makwa:
If you feel the need to make such a declaration, do at least have the nads to provide some documentation, perhaps a quote or a link? And please don't bait me with 'keep out the white posters' crap. You will have to get a lot more sophisticated than that to get under my skin, red as it might be. BTW, do you want to extend that 'saddle' metaphor, hm?
[ 09 June 2008: Message edited by: Makwa ]

Well, you asked for contributions. Links to what, racism in the world at large? Not hard to find. As for lessening the input from white posters, you mentioned as much yourself in your opening post, so it's not a bait at all, in that I was supporting your view in that regard. I thought the input was constructive and encouraging, so the intent is not to add further to the disharmony here, so I won't respond in anger or anything to the insulting manner you put forward by creatively turning a commonly used phrase used to describe a 'try it again' approach, in effect, accusing me of using a racist taunt at your expense. Lets clear that one away, can we? You wanted to explore what the problems were in the AR forum, didn't you.


From: An Intensive De-Indoctrination, But I'm Fine Now | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10724

posted 09 June 2008 07:52 AM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Slumberjack:
Well, you asked for contributions. Links to what, racism in the world at large? Not hard to find. As for lessening the input from white posters, you mentioned as much yourself in your opening post, so it's not a bait at all, in that I was supporting your view in that regard. I thought the input was constructive and encouraging, so the intent is not to add further to the disharmony here, so I won't respond in anger or anything to the insulting manner you put forward by creatively turning a commonly used phrase used to describe a 'try it again' approach, in effect, accusing me of using a racist taunt at your expense. Lets clear that one away, can we? You wanted to explore what the problems were in the AR forum, didn't you.
Much of this analysis is trying to distinguish between what dominant groups describe as 'racism in the world at large' and what POC and FN folks in NA determine what is genuine anti-racist discourse. Much of the argument turns on dominant culture people turning aside arguments to focus on conflicts in the wider world, which are a more interesting part of their particular purview. This is a useful point of discussion, but frequently is used mainly as a feint.

As far as the 'saddle' metaphor, it is an honest attempt for me to point out how cultural metaphors 'colour' (to use another difficult metaphor) our discussions. The simple fact that you using a dominant western fiction and film motif, which has a long history of propaganda and colonial mythology, meant nothing to you, yet resonated with me is something to learn from, yet you maintain in disparaging me. That is telling.

Again, if you maintain that I have ever honestly proposed the lessening of white posters, although I admit I did ask people once if a dedicated POC and FN space would have value (myself, I doubt it) please provide links and quotes to support that claim. If I have made such a statement, I would have done it in error, and would appreciate the chance to correct it.


From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10724

posted 09 June 2008 07:58 AM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Makwa:
I am considering, would the AR forum work better were it similar to the feminist forum, largely devoted to people within the particular discourse? Perhaps we need more POC and FN only threads, perhaps a majority of them?

For now, this thread is open to all, but if it becomes the typical shit fest, it will be closed to self identified FN and POC only.


Regarding SJacks point that I had suggested a reduction in the contributions of euro-babblers. I have reread my original statement, and I see it is wrong on many counts. I did not mean to suggest that white babblers were not welcome in anti-racism nor first nations forums. I have always been opposed to that. I was identifying only this thread in particular, and suggesting some more self identified POC and FN threads.

I see in hindsight that this seems to read that I am rejecting the perspectives of 'white' babblers. For this I apologize.

Then again, I see yet another FN/POC apology thread developing, as it usually does when any POC or FN person attempt to assert some kind of analytical perspective that is not acceptable to the dominant society.

What can you do.

No, seriously. What can you do?

[ 09 June 2008: Message edited by: Makwa ]


From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 09 June 2008 08:54 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think babble "isn't there yet" when it comes to issues of racism and colonialism.

What I mean by that is, I don't think most babblers (me included) have as strong of an analysis of anti-racism as we do of, say, globalization, or class issues (and that's not saying we're perfect in those respects either, of course), or feminism (at least the white, middle-class kind).

And I have been wondering what the mandate of babble should be - how do you strike a balance between having a place where generally progressive people can learn through dialogue, and a place where people who have made up their minds already are simply playing "bait the lefty/anti-racist with debates about first principles".

The problem is, of course, that people with strong anti-racist analysis are sick of going back to square one with those of us who are catching up, even if we "mean well".

So, I think Makwa's idea of "POC/FN Only" threads would be a good way to ensure that lots of threads are reserved for experiences by the people who are most directly affected. I don't think that would be very controversial, and it could be enforced relatively easily.

What might be more controversial is this, and I'm just putting it out there, so feel free to shoot it down. babble is also for learning, and sometimes learning means wrangling on stuff that's hard to "get". A lot of us who have been here for years have found that the discussion here has made us change our minds or at least expand our outlook on a variety of issues. Part of anti-racism, as far as I can tell, is also to get the dominant group to "get it" and stop oppressing.

So, what I wonder is: is there room for discussion by people who might not be "there yet" but are generally progressive otherwise? And could this be accommodated by having people of colour and indigenous people feeling free to designate any threads they like to be restricted so that they're not being sidetracked by ignorance, while other threads are open to everyone for discussion, including those who aren't "there yet" but who might learn something through whatever dialogue takes place?

This forum might not be the space at all for that, and I'm fine with it if that's what the consensus is. But if this isn't the space for it, then should there BE a space for it somewhere on babble?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slumberjack
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Babbler # 10108

posted 09 June 2008 10:50 AM      Profile for Slumberjack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Makwa:
I did not mean to suggest that white babblers were not welcome in anti-racism nor first nations forums. I have always been opposed to that.

Perspective is everything, isn't it. Like our earlier saddle exercise here. And for the benefit of other readers that might happen upon it, no we did not collaborate on it, Makwa and I, as an example of where things can get off track for AR forum purposes. I could have been thinking equestrian instead of western, but the presented image, without context and proper framing illustrates the challenges. Learning and acknowledgement, go hand in hand of course, so its quite easy to see the AR forum in it's present state, where people's reaction can lead to a complete lack of appreciation of perspective apart from their own. Which brings me to Michelle's suggestion, which essentially I take to reinforce your earlier point about dividing up the debate between the knowledgeable ones, and the unknowledgeable but willing ones. Between the beginners and the advanced so to speak. One requiring far more patience with posters of the dominant culture, and one for everyone else, requiring less oversight and intervention. The two-tier model. I hesitate to even discuss any of this, but I do not see much in the way of people wanting to wade into this important thread that you started. In doing so, I suppose the risk of coming across in the manner of the discourse above is a factor, but I hope it doesn't discourage you any further.


From: An Intensive De-Indoctrination, But I'm Fine Now | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
retiredguy
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posted 12 June 2008 04:58 PM      Profile for retiredguy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I have to say, most of my productive discussions with natives has taken place on reserves, or at ceremonies, or in their homes. Can this place be that kind of place. I'm thinking it can't. What I get when I go through a thread like this is "you don't get it". And to a certain extent, you're not supposed to get it. Hell the white part of me can't understand the native side and I'm theoretically one person. Personally, I've decided that different cultures operate from different parts of the brain. Often in framing a question from the "euro" part of the brain, you destroy any context that could be used to formulate an answer. What needs to happen in an AR forum, is the dominant voice has to come from an AR perspective. Once too much comes from a euro perspective, the FN or Black voice becomes drowned out and the ability to turn off the "euro conscious brain" and experience an FN or POC perspective is lost.

One of my native elders took me aside on learning that I was a member at one time of the "Religious Society of Friends" , Quakers, a group of serious euro do gooders. He asked me if I knew a certain woman, who was known in the Quaker community as something of an "expert" on FN issues. I said I knew her but hadn't seen her for a while. The elder said, next time you see her tell her " I know she wants to learn about us, but tell her if she doesn't learn to shut up and just listen she's never going to learn a damn thing."

Now that's a tough lesson. And I'm not at all certain there's many euro folks up to it.


From: Orillia | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Seddig
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15052

posted 15 June 2008 05:38 PM      Profile for Seddig     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by retiredguy:

The elder said, next time you see her tell her " I know she wants to learn about us, but tell her if she doesn't learn to shut up and just listen she's never going to learn a damn thing."



This is great. MY grand mother used to tell me folk stories which was meant to get the same point across. Now as an adult I understand why this is so important.

I am just checking to see if the moderators have made a decision yet. Is there anything we can do to speed up the process?

quote:
Originally posted by bigcitygal:

Third, as I said, I've taken specific efforts to be polite and nice. This won't always be possible, and won't always be okay for someone who's really ticked off at something an alleged progressive person has said. Over and over, the fab women in the FF (of which I'm one, sometimes) have said "we don't have to be polite, we don't have to keep saying you who are the nice men aren't included when we say male violence is sickening, it takes energy and effort to say this and we don't always want to and why should we anyways, etc". Can the AR forum be like that? Is it possible?


Is it possible for this to happen?


From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 16 June 2008 02:17 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Seddig: Is it possible for this to happen?

I believe: yes.

quote:
retiredguy: What needs to happen in an AR forum, is the dominant voice has to come from an AR perspective.

retiredguy said it beautifully. How to maintain this when the thread begins to go off topic is another story.

From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 16 June 2008 06:45 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As a gesture of goodwill and awareness, euros who post on this forum could precede their comments by the letters "CP" (for colonial perspective). That might reduce the drift factor. Personally, I think more would be said and discussions would go further in a non-mixed format.

[ 16 June 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 16 June 2008 07:06 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
As a gesture of goodwill and awareness, euros who post on this forum could precede their comments by the letters "CP" (for colonial perspective). That might reduce the drift factor. Personally, I think more would be said and discussions would go further in a non-mixed format.

[WWCMJA]* Good idea, martin.

* White working-class male Jewish atheist.

[ 16 June 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 16 June 2008 08:59 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tee hee, martin's funny.

Yo, unionist, this ain't no dating site, dude!


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 16 June 2008 09:08 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by bigcitygal:
Yo, unionist, this ain't no dating site, dude!

Be thankful I omitted the photo.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 16 June 2008 12:18 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are you joking?

quote:
As a gesture of goodwill and awareness, euros who post on this forum could precede their comments by the letters "CP" (for colonial perspective). That might reduce the drift factor. Personally, I think more would be said and discussions would go further in a non-mixed format.

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 16 June 2008 06:41 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What makes you think I might be? Don't you acknowledge being a settler yourself? If so, can you fathom that your perspective on FN or POC issues reflects a colonial position, much as you may struggle against this limit? Wouldn't acknowledging this standpoint be a step forward?

[ 16 June 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
sanizadeh
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posted 16 June 2008 09:25 PM      Profile for sanizadeh        Edit/Delete Post
There is a big difference between anti-colonialism and anti-racism, and the problem of racism is not limited to the cases between aggressors and victims of colonialism. Perhaps it would be better to create a separate forum for anti-colonialism views.

[ 16 June 2008: Message edited by: sanizadeh ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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posted 16 June 2008 11:25 PM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by sanizadeh:
There is a big difference between anti-colonialism and anti-racism, and the problem of racism is not limited to the cases between aggressors and victims of colonialism. Perhaps it would be better to create a separate forum for anti-colonialism views.
Interesting. Would you care to expand on this?

From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
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posted 18 June 2008 10:47 AM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think there are three general purposes for threads here: one would be to have a safe place to discuss for thoseFN/POC another to educate others and a third to engage in discussion with all people interested.

The first would be better served by closed threads the second could be served by a good mixture of both and the last by open threads. Some people may want to post in a more restricted posting environment and others may prefer to engage others.

I think the best approach to the forum could be to have something in the header placed by the opening poster defining if it is open or closed to the entire Babble community. Perhaps the software can be adjusted to allow a second log in that will allow posting to those closed threads preventing others from posting there.

On some topics it may well be a good thing to have two threads going at the same time-- one open to all and another open only to some. People who feel uncomfortable with the discourse in the wider area can simply ignore those threads but those who want to engage others would still have a forum to do so. Others would have by the thread header either an invitation to read or an invitation to read and post.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Le Téléspectateur
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posted 18 June 2008 11:09 AM      Profile for Le Téléspectateur     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think there are three general purposes for threads here: one would be to have a safe place to discuss for thoseFN/POC another to educate others and a third to engage in discussion with all people interested.

I always thought that the goal was to discuss anti-racist news and initiatives from an anti-racist percpective?

As for limiting participation in the forum... I work with many groups that use "caucusing" (sp?) to make organizational space for racialized peoples and Indigenous peoples. Could this work in cyberspace?


From: More here than there | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
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posted 18 June 2008 12:01 PM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Le Téléspectateur:

I always thought that the goal was to discuss anti-racist news and initiatives from an anti-racist percpective?


Of course, but so how does what I said conflict with that?


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
RevolutionPlease
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posted 18 June 2008 08:16 PM      Profile for RevolutionPlease     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sean in Ottawa:

Of course, but so how does what I said conflict with that?


Tone is not possible over the internet. Your 3rd term could be seen as objectionable. It's so nuanced. Should there be a separate login for the feminism forum for men to try and figure it out?

I'd be tremendously happy as a white man to be told to stay out. I'd be disappointed as a self-identifying ally but treat it with respect.

Since willy, nilly anecdotes are the flavour of the day, 99% of white people I know, don't care too much.


From: Aurora | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Slumberjack
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posted 19 June 2008 12:19 PM      Profile for Slumberjack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionPlease:
I'd be tremendously happy as a white man to be told to stay out. I'd be disappointed as a self-identifying ally but treat it with respect.

I see some of the problems with the AR forum originating with so-called allies. We will never be able to reach that 100% plateau of comprehensive understanding and knowledge. Empathy is a poor substitute.

On those occasions where our ignorance might be called to order, the noticeable trend has been that our easily bruised egos are prone to withdrawal from the scene, or more often than not, in being combative instead, because as self appointed allies, content in our own righteousness, it can come as somewhat of a shock when our limitations are pointed out.

From my observation at least, the AR forum has become a poisoned atmosphere. The battles that took place here earlier in the year, in trying to determine who has a right to feel the effects of racism are a case in point. The result being that it seems not many people are willing to engage with AR material or debate, for they fear the way here is strewn with eggshells, upon which they dare not tread.

As for the sought after suggestions in the opening thread post, I certainly hope no one has been holding their breath for the epiphany solution.

The manner in which suggestions were requested, mixed in with the statement "I suggest that it is the history of conflict that has been largely the office of white babblers" and the subsequent deafening silence in response, would seem to me to lend some credence to my observation about "allies' and bruised egos. There's no point really, given the plentiful examples expressed within the quotes, in elaborating much at all about the posting history of a fellow named Afrohealer.

Unfortunately, I don't see a rush of activity and input from non-white posters either, but then again, in soliciting constructive feedback, creating a welcoming platform for discussion is a deft balancing act.

[ 19 June 2008: Message edited by: Slumberjack ]


From: An Intensive De-Indoctrination, But I'm Fine Now | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 19 June 2008 12:53 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think pointing fingers at this or that "fellow" and suggesting that because key issues and strong feelings have come out the atmosphere has become "poisoned" is at all accurate or helpful.

Would POCs and FN people agree to caucussing back-channel (in e-mail) and propose a formula for the AR Forum to the board that would meet their needs and strategy?


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Slumberjack
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posted 19 June 2008 01:07 PM      Profile for Slumberjack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
I don't think pointing fingers at this or that "fellow" and suggesting that because key issues and strong feelings have come out the atmosphere has become "poisoned" is at all accurate or helpful.

Your right, I should be more diligent and thorough in reviewing the material here during my absence over the winter, to see where else it might have gone of track.


From: An Intensive De-Indoctrination, But I'm Fine Now | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
sanizadeh
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posted 19 June 2008 02:04 PM      Profile for sanizadeh        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Makwa:
Interesting. Would you care to expand on this?

I think many cases of racism, for example antisemitism, do not fit within the anti-colonialism discussion.


From: Ontario | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
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posted 19 June 2008 02:23 PM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionPlease:

Tone is not possible over the internet. Your 3rd term could be seen as objectionable. It's so nuanced. Should there be a separate login for the feminism forum for men to try and figure it out?

I'd be tremendously happy as a white man to be told to stay out. I'd be disappointed as a self-identifying ally but treat it with respect.

Since willy, nilly anecdotes are the flavour of the day, 99% of white people I know, don't care too much.


I am sorry but I do not know what you are referring to-- not trying to be difficult but I don't know what you are calling my third term nor can I tell what was nuanced about what I said- didn't think anything was. so please explain


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 19 June 2008 02:47 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
third to engage in discussion with all people interested

I presume he meant this was potentially objectionable. Its sort of what happens now.

From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
RevolutionPlease
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posted 19 June 2008 03:47 PM      Profile for RevolutionPlease     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sean in Ottawa:

I am sorry but I do not know what you are referring to-- not trying to be difficult but I don't know what you are calling my third term nor can I tell what was nuanced about what I said- didn't think anything was. so please explain


Sorry Sean, when I read posts over I realize I'm being a twit to an ally. You're not being difficult at all. I'm having difficulty learning to post but it's getting there(i hope). Only my first 2 sentences were responding to your post. The balance was just about the thread in general.

I worry that if there was a third element that was open to all who want to discuss it would be the dominant voice.

It's very difficult to move forward but as Makwa stated in the OP we need to try.

I, like Makwa, I think, would love to see this sub-forum become predominantly from a Canadian view. There should be strict moderation for a period of time so as to allow POC and FN's of Canada to feel very comfortable here. If that can attract a large number of visible minority Canadians to join and discuss it may lead to much more fruitful discussion on how white allies like myself can help. My ego won't be bruised if I'm told I'm wrong by the experts, those that live it. I'll reflect and if I'm not getting it, try to learn more by PM. But like the feminist fight, I would respect their living of it and listen more.

This is all so contentious and I'll admit I'm never 100% in agreement with all POC and FN's but letting them have a small space here on babble is the least we could do.

I don't have the answers but this is one of my prime interests so I hope there can be more forward discussion.


From: Aurora | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 19 June 2008 03:54 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
RP wrote: ...I worry that if there was a third element that was open to all who want to discuss it would be the dominant voice...
Good point.

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
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posted 19 June 2008 04:07 PM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It would be sad indeed if people would not read the threads they could not post in.

I don't see how an element could be a dominant voice-- I can see that a thread with more participants could have more posts and in that way be seen as dominant. But of course a thread with the concentrated words of those who actual experience the issues being discussed would be the more important one to read first -- I think others would agree.

If there were two types of threads-- one open to all and the other restricted-- perhaps the restricted ones should appear on top in the list. Any reading should start there.

I hear that some would feel more comfortable writing in threads where only people with direct experience can reply. This makes sense-- why subject oneself to educating each person over and over again if that is not your purpose. But on the other hand, there are those who really do want to discuss these issues with those who do not have experience to engage them in conversation about it and educate them. I owe a lot of my understanding about many of these issues to one friend in particular who felt that way and approached me many years ago- others since. While I realize that many people don't want to talk with others who can't relate- there are some who specifically want to address those people in order to create more understanding. I understand both motives and am grateful for those who reached out to me. I am hoping that there could be room here for both the safety and focus that can exist by limiting posting on some threads and the sharing that can happen on more open threads.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
RevolutionPlease
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posted 19 June 2008 05:20 PM      Profile for RevolutionPlease     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sean, I agree in principle but am cycnical of babble, not you. I'll see if can figure out why and say it better.
From: Aurora | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Slumberjack
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posted 19 June 2008 06:51 PM      Profile for Slumberjack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps with new software, more posting restrictions could be arranged, and more forums dealing with specific AR areas could be developed solely for the various interests. There are degrees of loss and gain in any sort of restricted format, but sadly, it seems the only way forward for AR issues now. I wish it were otherwise.
From: An Intensive De-Indoctrination, But I'm Fine Now | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
RevolutionPlease
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posted 19 June 2008 06:59 PM      Profile for RevolutionPlease     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Slumberjack:
Perhaps with new software, more posting restrictions could be arranged, and more forums dealing with specific AR areas could be developed solely for the various interests. There are degrees of loss and gain in any sort of restricted format, but sadly, it seems the only way forward for AR issues now. I wish it were otherwise.

I don't think posting restrictions should be necessary on a progressive board, beyond moderation.

I disagree that it's the only way forward and it is otherwise when babble wants it to be.


From: Aurora | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
RevolutionPlease
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posted 19 June 2008 07:02 PM      Profile for RevolutionPlease     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Frick, it's starting to sound like POC discuss you're stuff quietly at the back of the bus while us white folk sing 99 bottles of beer on the wall.

Pardon my anti-socialness


From: Aurora | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Slumberjack
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posted 19 June 2008 08:05 PM      Profile for Slumberjack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionPlease:
Frick, it's starting to sound like POC discuss you're stuff quietly at the back of the bus while us white folk sing 99 bottles of beer on the wall. Pardon my anti-socialness

I'd just as soon switch places, or better yet, get off at the next stop.


From: An Intensive De-Indoctrination, But I'm Fine Now | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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posted 20 June 2008 11:04 AM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ok, this thread is getting tired and sad fast. I opened it to see if there were any real ideas, only to find, as a expected, that few POC would comment, and that the regulars would pontificate and eventually get bored and start crabbing at each other.

And this is why POC and FN avoid this place like plague.

Anti-racism writing in the real world is active and dynamic, filled with strong voices, filled with idealism. I read their blogs all the time, and occasionally am tempted to link to one, and try to engage people, but then I stop. I am reminded of the discussion soon after I started 'modding' this group and previous discussions, and think: is it really worth it?

Why not just let it peter out to indifference and irrelevancy? Whatever idea I bring forth will probably result in headaches and depression for me, so to 'heck' I say - let all the white folk call the shots, let them determine the discussion, I'll just sit back and weed out the occasional Malkin protege.

Ed to add: I have never believed in a POC or FN only 'space' - that was merely a point of discussion. So, if you are feeling dismayed about that, get over it. It's not going to happen while I am around.

[ 20 June 2008: Message edited by: Makwa ]


From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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posted 20 June 2008 11:11 AM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionPlease:
Frick, it's starting to sound like POC discuss you're stuff quietly at the back of the bus while us white folk sing 99 bottles of beer on the wall.
RP, I think this comment is a bit incendiary, confidentially. Oops, I guess it's not all that confidential, is it? Anyway, let's try to avoid 'back of the bus' metaphors unless absolutely cogent, if you please?

From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Slumberjack
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posted 20 June 2008 12:00 PM      Profile for Slumberjack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Makwa:
Why not just let it peter out to indifference and irrelevancy?

That train left awhile ago, filled with people who might have had something valuable to contribute. The rest of us are standing around in it's wake, getting pissed on for trying it appears.


From: An Intensive De-Indoctrination, But I'm Fine Now | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
SLd
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posted 20 June 2008 01:04 PM      Profile for SLd        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Makwa:
Ok, this thread is getting tired and sad fast. I opened it to see if there were any real ideas, only to find, as a expected, that few POC would comment, and that the regulars would pontificate and eventually get bored and start crabbing at each other.

And this is why POC and FN avoid this place like plague.

Anti-racism writing in the real world is active and dynamic, filled with strong voices, filled with idealism. I read their blogs all the time, and occasionally am tempted to link to one, and try to engage people, but then I stop. I am reminded of the discussion soon after I started 'modding' this group and previous discussions, and think: is it really worth it?

Why not just let it peter out to indifference and irrelevancy? Whatever idea I bring forth will probably result in headaches and depression for me, so to 'heck' I say - let all the white folk call the shots, let them determine the discussion, I'll just sit back and weed out the occasional Malkin protege.

Ed to add: I have never believed in a POC or FN only 'space' - that was merely a point of discussion. So, if you are feeling dismayed about that, get over it. It's not going to happen while I am around.

[ 20 June 2008: Message edited by: Makwa ]


Chatboard politics in general have the ability to degenerate fairly easily and subsequently demoralize current and potential political organizers and activists rapidly. Even those who would write such dynamic prose via blogs, face a growing cynicism, resentment, anger et cetera, if said writers are not careful to compliment their intellectual pursuits with more, live, up close and personal work with other people.

I am not trying to stereotype, or offend, but this chatboard has always had reputation of being a hotspot for a primarily Caucasian / economically confident, academic and older demographic. While this demographic could (and does offer a number of engaging and important topics amidst the pettiness) this composition of people isn't necessarily the ultimate formula for radical / idealistic and ultra relevant prose. Combine this with the broader environment of a relatively low level of radicalization / polarization in this country and I think your frustrations and state of discussion in this area of the site, makes perfect sense.

Before making any decision on the format of this board I would suggest spending time on answering some core questions (if you haven't already) to the best of your ability, understanding your answers will change. The questions could include:

1.) What exactly are you trying to do / want to do, in a broader context (i.e as an activist / political organizer / advocate / et cetera)

2.) Why is relevant and spirited dialog on anti-racist issues important to you? Why do you think it's important in social justice struggle in general?

3.) What is the current role of this site? What would you like it to be? Why?

4.) As objectively as possible, what has the role of internet dialog been within anti-racist struggle historically, and today? Why? What characteristics of this sort of medium lends to building your evaluation? Why?

5.) What do you feel is the basis for racism in Canada today? What are the objective conditions? What are the trends in and out of progressive circles? Where does 'Rabble' fit in all of this?

My own personal evaluation of the world of blogs, chatboards et cetera, are that they only serve as tool, modest in it's effectiveness at best. If the information or dialog within said mediums isn't in the context of a broader plan to organize, unify and educate people in a consistent matter, they remain as a relatively irrelevant medium of radical communication, and ultimately fizzle out and die.

That being said, I believe that an objective evaluation of the community of users of this board and their own class consciousness and participation in any manner of social justice work, whether anti-racist or anti-imperialist (one in the same) et cetera, is a prerequisite to evaluating the form and content and effectiveness of this one section of the board.

I for one, appreciate your proactive approach (despite feeling your justifiable frustration) Your suggestion of posting links to dynamic writings on blogs you visit is a good one. I would also suggest pasting articles, speeches, statements and press releases of current activist groups, so as to be able to retain a direction connection with the tone and quality of live street level work that is happening. I would also encourage posting historic documents and writings from significant figures throughout history involved in the struggle for the basic rights of people of diverse ethnicities / nationalities.

Malcolm X and Howard Adams would be at the top of my list

I believe that if anti-racism struggle is not continuously framed in the context of anti-imperialist struggle / growing era of war and occupation (at home and abroad) and core question of self-determination of oppressed nations, then discussion of said struggle will face an increased risk of becoming obsolete all the more rapidly, on this board and other websites / blogs / newsgroups.

-stay up!

-SLd


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
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posted 20 June 2008 01:41 PM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am going to take a run at trying to express something I have felt but found it difficult to articulate throughout my reading of this thread.

I think it is fair to recognize that those in the middle of a highly charged and emotional debate will have a harder time addressing it than those who see themselves as observers -- no matter how much goodwill those "observers" bring or even the fact that those "observers" are in fact participants with advantages others do not enjoy.

I say this in part because by virtue of participating here- for the most part we (white folks) are self-identifying away from the cause of the problem into trying to be part of the solution (even though that also is unrealistic -- goodwill notwithstanding). There is this perception of high ground here where there is none. The temptation to feel good about our positions only underlines the real differences and advantages we have.

These are difficult issues to face - in some cases even on both sides. To make it easy for these essential discussion to take place is likely unrealistic. It will never be easy and it will always be much, much harder for POC and FN to discuss this than the well-meaning others who have less at stake and certainly few internal/emotional risks in entering the discussion. While I think the goal of having POC and FN feel as comfortable here in this discussion as those of the "establishment" is a laudable one, it would be a complete denial of the reality of racism to ever presume that this can happen. It can never feel the same to be a person trying not to contribute to racism from a white perspective that has little chance of encountering it as the perspective of a person who has to constantly filter incoming reactions for racialized sub-messages.

Let's hope to make this easier but maybe we should stop pretending that it can ever be easy- then at least we can respect and understand those POC and FN who have the courage to come out and share with us experiences, perspectives and knowledge we don't have.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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Babbler # 8938

posted 20 June 2008 03:19 PM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just finished reading a blog post that I think is very applicable to babble, the AR forum and this thread in particular. It's long, and I strongly suggest taking the time to read it. I haven't finished reading the comments yet.

It's written by a white guy, and it's a damn good piece about privilege, that's so invisible to the privilege-holder until a few specific incidents that happened to him while traveling in Indonesia.

He quotes from Shannon Sullivan, an American philosopher I hadn't heard of before, who says the following about a white habit she calls "ontological expansiveness" something that is a pretty good description of what happens in the AR forum. She may mean it as literal physical space, but it applies to cyberspace as well, IMO:

quote:

As ontologically expansive, white people consider all spaces as rightfully available for their habitation of them. A white person’s choice to change her environment in order to challenge her unconscious habits of white privilege can be just another instance of ontological expansiveness. This problem leads to the question of whether white people can attempt to change their unconscious habits and simultaneously live space in antiracist ways. While the danger of ontological expansiveness cannot be entirely eliminated, the answer to this question can be “yes.”

Racialicious "They Think they have the right to go wherever they like"

Originally posted at blog "stuff white people do"


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
SLd
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Babbler # 15269

posted 20 June 2008 03:43 PM      Profile for SLd        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by bigcitygal:
I just finished reading a blog post that I think is very applicable to babble, the AR forum and this thread in particular. It's long, and I strongly suggest taking the time to read it. I haven't finished reading the comments yet.

It's written by a white guy, and it's a damn good piece about privilege, that's so invisible to the privilege-holder until a few specific incidents that happened to him while traveling in Indonesia.

He quotes from Shannon Sullivan, an American philosopher I hadn't heard of before, who says the following about a white habit she calls "ontological expansiveness" something that is a pretty good description of what happens in the AR forum. She may mean it as literal physical space, but it applies to cyberspace as well, IMO:

Racialicious "They Think they have the right to go wherever they like"

Originally posted at blog "stuff white people do"


Thank-you for the link! One comment I wanted to make earlier was - that unless words become action, and action becomes institution, the growing consciousness of privileged peoples, runs the common risk of sinking into white-guilt, which does very little in the struggle for ethnic equality.

That being said, I don't want to shit on anyones consciousness being expanded.So ill shut up now and go check out the link

-SLd


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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posted 20 June 2008 04:26 PM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Slumberjack:
That train left awhile ago, filled with people who might have had something valuable to contribute. The rest of us are standing around in it's wake, getting pissed on for trying it appears.

PS: SLd, you rock.

From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Slumberjack
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posted 20 June 2008 04:46 PM      Profile for Slumberjack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for that masterpiece Makwa.
From: An Intensive De-Indoctrination, But I'm Fine Now | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Slumberjack
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posted 20 June 2008 05:56 PM      Profile for Slumberjack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by SLd:
One comment I wanted to make earlier was - that unless words become action, and action becomes institution, the growing consciousness of privileged peoples, runs the common risk of sinking into white-guilt, which does very little in the struggle for ethnic equality.

Continuous and collective grassroots activity offers the best hope for inevitable momentum. Traditional institutions and the human beings that swear by them tend to resist change, even beyond the point where the wave crashes over them all. Self-survival necessitates a few cosmetic adjustments, largely intended to quell and mollify, without threatening the status quo. Pigeonholed communities of people, understandably wary of each other from the predominant, unrelenting, purposeful, and convenient divisions, are ripe for exploitation and beguilement. If the wool can be effectively pulled down in one instance, then the others can be told to wait their turn, as it's all a work in progress. Eventually the people end up turning on each other, so nothing changes, and no one expects it ever will. Perhaps the biggest threat to societal and institutional based racism might occur when people start to act in unison, and less concerned about which stovepipe it's coming from.

ETA: Off to LA for a week....cause all I wanna do is have some fun, and i gotta feelin the party's just begun...

[ 20 June 2008: Message edited by: Slumberjack ]


From: An Intensive De-Indoctrination, But I'm Fine Now | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 20 June 2008 07:03 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Great punch line!
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
SLd
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posted 21 June 2008 12:25 AM      Profile for SLd        Edit/Delete Post
Continuous and collective grassroots activity offers the best hope for inevitable momentum.

> But only if it’s infused with genuine class-consciousness / an awareness of concrete objective conditions, has strong leadership and is in the context of a programmatic plan of consistent and increased action that revolves around a rock solid political line or set of demands (yeah, yeah I know my ideological roots are being exposed)

Traditional institutions and the human beings that swear by them tend to resist change, even beyond the point where the wave crashes over them all.

> If by “traditional institutions” you mean largely ineffective, show-initiatives promoting an ambiguous and hollow vision of multiculturalism, and by “human beings that swear by them” you are referring to communities with relatively high privileges through their comfortable economic standing and a desperate need to clear their consciousness as conveniently and painlessly as possible, THEN yes, they do need to get torn down / woken up.

Self-survival necessitates a few cosmetic adjustments, largely intended to quell and mollify, without threatening the status quo. Pigeonholed communities of people, understandably wary of each other from the predominant, unrelenting, purposeful, and convenient divisions, are ripe for exploitation and beguilement.

>Hot damn! Say that three times really fast! Here in Vancouver if you were to mention “Status Quo – Left,” you would immediately get tarred and feathered by the oddly combined forces of social democrats/NDP careerists and white anarchist triple combo. Nonetheless their combined ego and defensiveness makes for a brand of political “organizing” most definitely ripe for exploitation and beguilement of other well-meaning but inexperienced individuals. But I’ll stop here on that, as it probably belongs in another section.

If the wool can be effectively pulled down in one instance, then the others can be told to wait their turn, as it's all a work in progress. Eventually the people end up turning on each other, so nothing changes, and no one expects it ever will.

> Do you genuinely feel demoralized? If you do, rest assured you’re not alone, and understand that even if you are, you still manage to convey a positive and relatively concrete perspective ☺ If I missed the point, can you clarify what you were trying to say please?

Perhaps the biggest threat to societal and institutional based racism might occur when people start to act in unison, and less concerned about which stovepipe it's coming from.

> Hmm, can you rephrase this? I am assuming your are referring to a need for more unity, and less polemisizing (sp?) on what political line to hoist. If this is the case then I somewhat disagree. At least a fraction of debate and even strife is healthy, if it results in the debunking of the age old sloganeering of “we’re all the same color inside…we’re all equal…bla bla bla bullshit” and subsequently what passes as struggle in many more privileged circles in this country. The fact is that we are NOT all the same, and nor should we try to hoist the idea, that we are. What is more important to expose and destroy is the economic inequality between ethnicities

Racialized communities need to realized that we are constantly being pushed towards being assimilated in “civil Canadian society” through the illusion of achieving the “Canadian Dream,” through petty and reactionary old world immigrant vs. new world immigrant disputes and understanding that there is a conscious insertion of uncle(auntie) toms(tomahawks) that have been corrupted into thinking their own personal interests, are the interests of the larger majority (without getting paranoid or pushing forward any number of reactionary ideas/initiatives)

Caucasian communities need to realize that we live in an environment where we are always being pitted against one another, despite coming from the same oppressed class, whether through the previously mentioned “traditional institutions” or new school cultural incentives which are more akin to white washing than anything else. (i.e. the idea of the “good Muslim” versus the “bad Muslim”) There also needs to be a conscious and rigorous dismantling of ego and defensiveness (this applies to everyone) More often than none, I see genuine people attempting to get over their privileges and developing a broader class consciousness only to slip up on their white guilt (as mentioned earlier) – (i.e. resorting to individualistic or irrelevant measures like naming your baby an “ethnic” name!?!?!?)

More important that anything previously mentioned, I would say the development and character of Leadership (once again exposing my roots) needs to be implemented in all layers of society, from Labor to Students, to Professionals to Indigenous peoples. In Vancouver the Labor Aristocracy that has built itself up, is a failed example when it comes to uniting working people of various ethnicities. (i.e not clarifying and reinforcing the similar interests between Canadian born workers and immigrant workers as consistently and broadly as possible) In this day and age, I still hear (a lot) the old racist slogans of “immigrants are taking all our jobs…bla bla bla” and one wonders what the so-called primary Labor leaders are actually doing asides from political posturing in front of the camera? May Day initiatives are relatively still fragmented down racial lines out here in the west, when considering the resources and influence many Labor Bureaucrats have to unify workers. That being said there are a smattering of Union Presidents and Union Social Justice sections that are doing what they can with what resources they have. While I understand that many immigrant / visible ethnic communities still feel somewhat unsafe coming to the streets en masse, a stronger and more genuine leadership would do well to serve to build trust among said communities.

Shit, I’m ranting now, so I’ll stop! I hope your vacation goes well.

-SLd


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
AfroHealer
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posted 24 June 2008 01:16 PM      Profile for AfroHealer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sean i feel that you mean well, but i though i should clear up some of the myths that are embeded in your response.

The myth that so called White people are just observers, withought a vested interest.

Those who are privilledged by the colour of thier skin have a lot to loose. The feeling and illusion of superiority is something that many fight hard to keep.

You just have to read what goes on in this forum for more than ample proof.

quote:
Originally posted by Sean in Ottawa:

I think it is fair to recognize that those in the middle of a highly charged and emotional debate will have a harder time addressing it than those who see themselves as observers -- no matter how much goodwill those "observers" bring or even the fact that those "observers" are in fact participants with advantages others do not enjoy.


quote:
..
It will never be easy and it will always be much, much harder for POC and FN to discuss this than the well-meaning others who have less at stake and certainly few internal/emotional risks in entering the discussion.


I beg to differ, the problem is the failure to acknowledge how difficult it is for the dominate members of this board, to deal with reality.

The problem is not a POC and FN, the problem is with the so-called progressive white people, who think they don't have a problem or believe that they get it.


May the truth set you free, lord knows the lies are keeping our collective families in bondage.

"Free your mind, and the rest will follow."


From: Atlantic Canada | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
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posted 24 June 2008 07:22 PM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
AfroHealer, I am wondering if you would mind having a second look at what I posted-- I never said that "white people" *are* just observers-- I was speaking about the problem of those who *think* of themselves as such. That is why I said "see themselves as observers" and then put "observers" in quotes the next two times I used the word- to emphasize that I was speaking of a perception I did not share. It looks like were were in agreement, even if the words I chose were not as smooth as would have been ideal.

My point then went on to say the mis perception of some being "observers" causes some to actually have less at stake emotionally and less risk than others who do not have perceptions that shelter them from the reality of the debate. This is like saying a person who feels no pain can have an advantage in certain situations even if the lack of perception of risk is an illusion.

As you can see, I am finding it difficult to see any daylight between what I expressed and what you said by way of apparent disagreement with it. So, I am not disagreeing with your conclusion at all since that was the point I was making -- except of course the part that had me saying the opposite of what I was actually saying.

You also have me saying the problem is a POC or FN. I can't possibly see how you got that out of what I said when I was pointing out that while some have said the issue is that it is difficult for POC and FN to come here, I was saying it was the false disengagement of the others that is the problem since these are charged issues that are, and ought to be difficult. In other words I was saying it isn't that there is something off about POC and FN that is making them have a hard time with this forum -- it is the sheltered view by some others who don't find it difficult that is out of place. It is not realistic for these topics to be comfortable happy ones. We should expect people who "get it" to find the topic intimidating.

Afrohealer, I did struggle with how to put those ideas together and perhaps did not do a great job of it but I hope you will see that regardless of whatever other difficulty you may have had with what I said, I was saying the exact opposite of what you interpreted me as saying. I apologize for the lack of clarity while hoping with a second reading you can see where I was really trying to go with that.

I don't mean to insult when I ask if it could not be that preconceptions and assumptions about where I was coming from could have contributed to leading you to the opposite of what I was actually saying. Nobody is immune to these. I am not saying I am infallible or right about what I am saying but I do know that I was arguing the exact opposite of what you concluded I was.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 25 June 2008 01:36 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think it's possible to read your post both ways Sean. Obviously it's possible because Afrohealer did. But I can read it both ways too.

I'm going to put BCG on the spot by soliciting her opinion on something specific, based on her experience.

It strikes me as inevtibale- and really and repeadetedly inevitable- that in a forum where there are both progressive white folks and POC/FN persons that the white folk are going to say things that infuriate the POC and FN. And generally those things should be expected to infuriate.

In a room full of people with the same number of discussants as speak here in AR discussions, it is quite feasible to make progress in a discussion where that happens. And whether you are an official or self-appointed facilliatator in such a situation, it takes attention and sensitivity, and can be very challenging, but its quite doable.

My experience in on-line disucussions that hit this turf is only babble. But I've seen enough, and have a fair bit of the face to face experience, that I feel I can generalize.

And based on that, I can't see how on-line discussions can handle this dynamic.

BCG links to good on-line discussions. And I think Makwa has referred to them. But none of them are 'mixed'.

So what is your realistic assessment BCG? I'm assuming you don't think it's hopeless, because you are here. And I guess that could be said of me too.

But I guess I'd classify myself as "keep trying, with little hope." Maybe like: "well it seems doomed, and like no one else has done it either, but if we keep trying maybe we'll turn up some recipe?"


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
AfroHealer
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posted 25 June 2008 03:33 AM      Profile for AfroHealer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sean I was not disagreeing with the general flow of what you were saying.

What i'm trying to share is this.

There is a racist and Eurocentric idea, that some of us (meaning racialiced peeps )are too close to the issue to see things clearly, and if only we were more rational, then things will be ok.


Those of of who are negatively racialised have to deal with this mental gymnastics on a regular basis.

I also like to call a spade a spade. I don't want this to be misconstrued as a problem that has equal guilt, because that is also BS.

Here is a link to an article by Larry D. Crawford that might help you to better understand the spirit of what I was sharing.

The Truth about Liars

http://www.nbufront.org/html/FRONTalView/ArticlesPapers/Crawford_Imhotep.html

quote:
The culture which produced such monumental symbols, not idols, as the sphinx held its ordered morality most highly. The sphinx itself symbolizes the elevation of the mind over the body, the mental over the physical, as in a man rising up above his animal, i.e., baser, desires through a life of Maat (by living the principles of truth, justice, righteousness, balance, harmony, reciprocity and order). Of these facts Afrikan warrior scholars, those who study while preparing us for battle, have no question.

quote:
The most infamous examples are found in a fundamental contradiction of claims to the spirit of "Christian" love and brotherhood, where some of the world�s most phenomenal religious leaders continue to be passed off as European. William Larue Dillard, by tracing the Afrikan genealogy in Biblical Ancestry Voyage, "discover[ed] that all of the [European] countries honored and worshiped the black Madonna, black Mary, and her black baby. They did it for years until the rise of white supremacy in the fourteenth century...when they found all of the statues and everything depicting the black Madonna, they burned and destroyed them." They contradict their own contradictions.

We are talking about changes that are needed in the AR forum. Please resist the urge to take it as a personal attack, I am sharing suggestions of what needs to change.

IS BCG has suggested, we should not be surprised if in a discussion about oppression of women, people actually talk about what men can do to be better allies.

So lets not act all surprised, when i and other talk about what the majority of these boards membership, needs to do to relate to us more respectfully.


From: Atlantic Canada | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 25 June 2008 04:03 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
KenS, you called?

quote:
KenS: It strikes me as inevtibale- and really and repeadetedly inevitable- that in a forum where there are both progressive white folks and POC/FN persons that the white folk are going to say things that infuriate the POC and FN. And generally those things should be expected to infuriate.

Yes to both your statements, but I need to add some things from a conversation I had long ago with a babbler who no longer posts here, but who I think still lurks.

First, on babble, the overwhelmingly majority of the voices are from the dominant (white) position who either do not get anti-racism or think they get it but don't get it to the extent that they think. These voices allow a certain level of discourse to go on, in either ignorance (I don't use this word as a criticism, but as a description), nonsense or downright offensiveness. (One of the first things taught in Anti-racism 101 is that intent is irrelevant.)

Second, imagine if babble were an ongoing party/ bar/ large room, in which we all move through and catch snippets of conversations (which of course happens to me and all POC/FN people IRL). When we hear white folks talking about race/ anti-racism/ anti-oppression in ways such as the above, I guarantee you I would steer away from the conversation and let it fade into the background, rather than join in. When it's text on a screen it's a very different sensory engagement, each word takes on perhaps more significance, but also reveals much more than the writer may have intended. If you make a "slip" at a party you can quickly remove yourself, your words float in the air for a while, maybe someone changes the subject, and the conversation drifts away.

Third, and I can't emphasize this enough: anti-racist discourse/ analysis/ thought/ theory is not about the feelings of POC/FN people, and continuing along that logical line, isn't about the feelings of white people. Please read that sentence again.

As long as AR discourse remains about what our feelings may or may not be, there is no systemic analysis, no possible chance for allies to be formed, and certainly no hope for social change.

One of my ideals? Is for people to not use offensive language, not because offensive language "hurts the feelings of POC/FN people" (which of course it does) but because they've internalized the reality that offensive language is but one of many many forms by which POC and FN are oppressed and marginalized. Some AR activists have argued with me that given the choice they prefer offensive language to, say, being beat up, denied housing, being tormented at work. They have a point.

quote:
KenS: BCG links to good on-line discussions. And I think Makwa has referred to them. But none of them are 'mixed'.

If you're referring to the amazing comments sections on the blogs Racialicious and The Angry Black Woman you are incorrect. If "mixed" means the presence of white folks as well as folks of colour and FN folks. The huge difference between those comments sections and babble is the presence of a vast majority of posters/commenters of colour (I don't actually think there are a lot of FN posters on those 2 sites) and that the white folks who post there, for the most part, get it to a level that the majority of white babblers have not yet achieved.

See, look at that, I'm always so optimistic in the morning.


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 25 June 2008 04:31 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 25 June 2008 05:07 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I need to digest the rest of what BCG said, but I'll go for this while it is still fresh:

quote:
If you're referring to the amazing comments sections on the blogs Racialicious and The Angry Black Woman you are incorrect. If "mixed" means the presence of white folks as well as folks of colour and FN folks. The huge difference between those comments sections and babble is the presence of a vast majority of posters/commenters of colour (I don't actually think there are a lot of FN posters on those 2 sites) and that the white folks who post there, for the most part, get it to a level that the majority of white babblers have not yet achieved.

I knew even as I asked the question that the links you have posted are also "mixed"... and maybe that was not the best way to put it. But I suspect my putting it that way was useful- at least in the sense it has something to do with this reply.

Becasue your reply brings up further questions.

Do the while folk on POC forums 'get it' more, or is it essentially the same people on better behaviour? I'm inclined to agree that they wouldn't be there if they didn't get it, but I like the open question.

And if it is a question of getting it, this gets back to the comparison of on-line to face to face, what it is feasible to expect from the on-line version.... and implicitly at least, what is possible here.

It is perfectly possible to have useful and productive group face to face discussions with white folk who do not get it, who come to the discussion as they are.

Is that possible also for an on-line discussion forum?

Or to get away from the absolutist 'possible': is it sufficiently possible to warrant people exposing themselves to the deep frustration, if not anger and bruises, that are certain to come whether it works or not?


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
AfroHealer
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posted 25 June 2008 08:33 AM      Profile for AfroHealer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In response to Kens.

It is possible to have a respectfull dialogue about race dn racism.

Now its funny that kids (i'm talking under 12) .. seem to have no problem understanding it & getting it.

SO the question, that those who are having a hard time, or making excuses for the inexcusable displays of white supremacy on babble, need to ask themselves is .....

why do they choose to hold themselves to a lower stander than pre-teens and infants.

Its racism, eurocentricity and whitesupremacy, that would cause people to believe that we should expect from them less maturity than 12yr olds. is that the best that can be expected from so-called progressives. If that is the standard, then i think some people need to educate themselves on what progressive really means.

I instead choose to engage with them with a level that will allow them to take responsibility for their words and actions.

I frankly don't think that is remotely close to asking too much.

heck the guidelines for babble, dictate that all the members must agree to that.

So once again the question to ask yourselves, is what makes it acceptable to violate babble/rabbles policies in the AR forum?

When you are done asking yourself those questions, and the other questions that I and others have brought to your collective attention.

Then you will start to see and smell the stench of what is continuing to happen in this so-called progressive space.

and maybe just maybe, you (collectively) will choose to be part of the solution, instead of continuing to be part of the problem.

[ 25 June 2008: Message edited by: AfroHealer ]


From: Atlantic Canada | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 25 June 2008 09:03 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by AfroHealer:
In response to Kens.

It is possible to have a respectfull dialogue about race dn racism.

Now its funny that kids (i'm talking under 12) .. seem to have no problem understanding it & getting it.

SO the question, that those who are having a hard time, or making excuses for the inexcusable displays of white supremacy on babble, need to ask themselves is .....

why do they choose to hold themselves to a lower stander than pre-teens and infants.


Dunno? What is "respectful" about childrens taunts attempting to belittle people for their comparative lack of maturity in comparison to "children"?

Uhhh, I'll answer this: Nothing at all, this is just hazing.

[ 25 June 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 27 June 2008 02:56 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
KenS: Do the while folk on POC forums 'get it' more, or is it essentially the same people on better behaviour?

No. "Getting" anti-racism isn't like putting on a jacket. One can't "fake it" because when one opens one's mouth, unexamined crap will fall out and get all over everyone. Even as one may try, and I've seen it happen, so very hard to be "nice" and non-offensive. There are a gajillion threads in the AR archives that are examples of this.

quote:
KenS: It is perfectly possible to have useful and productive group face to face discussions with white folk who do not get it, who come to the discussion as they are.

Is that possible also for an on-line discussion forum?

Or to get away from the absolutist 'possible': is it sufficiently possible to warrant people exposing themselves to the deep frustration, if not anger and bruises, that are certain to come whether it works or not?



I believe that answer is to be found in the numbers of POC and FN/Aboriginal people who post here on a regular basis.

From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 27 June 2008 05:49 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In response to KenS - Even when couched as diplomatically as possible, "but can it be done?" arguments always suggest that no, it can't, and are ultimatey safe self-fulflling prophecies.
I think AfroHealer's answer - "I see children do it" - is perfectly adequate, a reality check against rote pessimism.
Indeed, my own experience confirms this: my conversations with youths almost always go further on key issues than conversations with adults, where turf becomes everything.
To acknowledge and voice this is nothing like a "children's taunt" - indeed it is that metaphor that disparages children.

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 27 June 2008 06:00 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No. Don't think so. No "teacher" ever gets anywhere by making openly dismissive comments directly implying the intellectual inablity of their students. This is particularly true of teaching children. So the metaphor falls on its face by its own logic.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 28 June 2008 07:54 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'd like to request that this thread stay on topic to the issue that Makwa raised in the OP. Please.
From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
RevolutionPlease
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posted 30 June 2008 05:53 PM      Profile for RevolutionPlease     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
No. Don't think so. No "teacher" ever gets anywhere by making openly dismissive comments directly implying the intellectual inablity of their students. This is particularly true of teaching children. So the metaphor falls on its face by its own logic.


There's so much that could be said of this post but it's not worth it. I'm disappointed Cueball, that you don't seem open to dialogue here. You're doing exactly the same thing, so in the anti-racist forum accusing an allie of "hazing" isn't cool.

I made a mistake in this thread earlier and I'm happy Makwa advised me. I could be wrong here too but it seems things aren't moving forward a great deal, with the interruptions.


From: Aurora | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
RevolutionPlease
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posted 30 June 2008 06:10 PM      Profile for RevolutionPlease     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I miss Afrohealer's contributions because even if I didn't always agree, it made you question things and there's nothing wrong with that. A good teacher won't always spoon feed you, tell you what you want to hear.

Canada, is a very racist country. I understand why Canadian progressives have a hard time believing that but really, I'll have to take a hard line for a moment.

[rant]My social circle is at least 50% visible minority. The stories I get daily would make the attention paid here laughable.[/rant]

Fortunately, they're actually not-bad-to-do and manage it.


From: Aurora | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 01 July 2008 04:31 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow, I'm glad to read that Stuff White People Do has changed direction. I had been boycotting that site due to all the racist whites posting in the comments and the fact the blogger did nothing about this. I see he has changed his approach and I look forward to reading his blog again.
From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Slumberjack
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posted 01 July 2008 07:09 AM      Profile for Slumberjack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by SLd:[/QB]

quote:
> .........(yeah, yeah I know my ideological roots are being exposed)[/QB]

I hadn't noticed

quote:
> Do you genuinely feel demoralized? If you do, rest assured you’re not alone, and understand that even if you are, you still manage to convey a positive and relatively concrete perspective ☺ If I missed the point, can you clarify what you were trying to say please?[/QB]

I really have no reason to be personally demoralized. I enjoy my share of the status quo. I have some limited understanding of how I am able to do so while others apply much more effort only to come away short changed. To use an analogy, I'm aware that I have the luxury to engage in AR 101 learning at my convenience, while others are in daily session solely through birth.

quote:
> ....I am assuming your are referring to a need for more unity, and less polemisizing.... If this is the case then I somewhat disagree. At least a fraction of debate and even strife is healthy, if it results in the debunking of the age old sloganeering of “we’re all the same color inside…...There also needs to be a conscious and rigorous dismantling of ego and defensiveness (this applies to everyone) More often than none, I see genuine people attempting to get over their privileges and developing a broader class consciousness only to slip up on their white guilt...[/QB]

Yes, more unity among people looking towards a relatively similar outcome. Understandably it's quite difficult to achieve, as the barriers are formidable, because it takes a great deal of effort to work around the pervasive ignorance of basic concepts and realities. Expecting to be coddled on these issues while having our hand held can no doubt be annoying at best, and really, no one should expend the time or energy to drag the privileged along. In the short term, I'm not sure if the habitual 'ego and defensiveness' that you mention can be mitigated to allow for some shared purposes to emerge. What is certain is the dire need for it. Strife, debate, challenges to perceptions, etc, can be healthy, however it can result in disappointment as well, especially if the gain from AR debate appears marginal. If people who have been denied dignity for their entire existence can still have hope, it seems as good an inspiration as any, for all of us.

quote:
I hope your vacation goes well.[/QB]

It was smashing. Southern California is tremendously vibrant and alive. I'm considering a job offer and a move there!!


From: An Intensive De-Indoctrination, But I'm Fine Now | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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posted 02 July 2008 11:24 AM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ok. Lovely, Sjack, have a nice time and all. So, I've avoided this topic for the nonce to see what folks (yes, I said 'folks', deal with it) had to say. It's dragged on enough, it's finished. Nothing new to report, this thread is dead. I need to reread it a few times to see if there is anything that can suggest a way to wake up this sluggish and decrepit pit of a forum, formally known as the 'antiracist' forum. Please consider this topic closed for the moment, pmail me if you have an issue and we will share a tissue.
From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged

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