Call that humiliation?

quote:

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I share the outrage expressed in the British press over the treatment of our naval personnel accused by Iran of illegally entering their waters. It is a disgrace. We would never dream of treating captives like this - allowing them to smoke cigarettes, for example, even though it has been proven that smoking kills. And as for compelling poor servicewoman Faye Turney to wear a black headscarf, and then allowing the picture to be posted around the world - have the Iranians no concept of civilised behaviour? For God's sake, what's wrong with putting a bag over her head? That's what we do with the Muslims we capture: we put bags over their heads, so it's hard to breathe. Then it's perfectly acceptable to take photographs of them and circulate them to the press because the captives can't be recognised and humiliated in the way these unfortunate British service people are.

It is also unacceptable that these British captives should be made to talk on television and say things that they may regret later. If the Iranians put duct tape over their mouths, like we do to our captives, they wouldn't be able to talk at all. Of course they'd probably find it even harder to breathe - especially with a bag over their head - but at least they wouldn't be humiliated.

And what's all this about allowing the captives to write letters home saying they are all right? It's time the Iranians fell into line with the rest of the civilised world: they should allow their captives the privacy of solitary confinement. That's one of the many privileges the US grants to its captives in Guantánamo Bay.

The true mark of a civilised country is that it doesn't rush into charging people whom it has arbitrarily arrested in places it's just invaded. The inmates of Guantánamo, for example, have been enjoying all the privacy they want for almost five years, and the first inmate has only just been charged. What a contrast to the disgraceful Iranian rush to parade their captives before the cameras!

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Oh! Sorry. Well, it was a good article, so worth repeating.

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Yes, and thank you Michelle, as, had you not reposted the article, I would have missed it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Blair: We've 48 hours to save sailors

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quote:

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Is that because the US bombing campaign begins on Friday?

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US's Bungled Plan to Kidnap Iran's Top Spook Prompted Hostage Taking

Washington Hurting British Bid to Free Crew

[ 03 April 2007: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

Perhaps they just felt they had made their point and there wasn't any point to continuing to incarcerate relatively innocent soldiers of a country whom they are not at war with. Keeping them any longer would appear gratuitous.

[ 04 April 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Prime Minister Tony Blair said he was "glad" the crew had been returned "safe and unharmed".

In a statement given outside Downing Street as the plane touched down, Mr Blair said there had been "no deal" with the Iranians to secure their release.

He contrasted the rejoicing at the return of the crew with the "sober and ugly reality" of the deaths of four British soldiers in Iraq in what he described as a "terrorist act".

He repeated allegations that there were "elements of the Iranian regime" that were "financing, arming and supporting terrorism in Iraq".

---

[ 05 April 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Four UK soldiers killed in Iraq

quote:

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Four British soldiers [and a civilian translator] have been killed by a roadside explosion near Basra, southern Iraq, the Ministry of Defence has confirmed. [...]

This latest incident brings the total number of UK troops killed in operations in Iraq to 140.[...]

Two other British soldiers were also killed in Iraq this week, also while on patrol in the Basra area.

Of those soldiers who have died in Iraq, 108 are classed as having been killed after hostile action, while 32 have died from illness, non-combat injuries or accidents, or the cause of their death is still unknown.

Meanwhile, eyewitness reports say a US helicopter has come down in southern Iraq after apparently coming under heavy fire from insurgents.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
This "elements" theme when discussing the Iranian government, is interesting. It has been appearing more often lately. Its almost like they are looking for fault lines.

[ 05 April 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

---

I think that's an interesting point. I'm speculating of course, but it strikes me that this resolution had little to do with any external pressure, and more to do with the fact that Ahmadinejad has been walking a pretty high tightrope with no net for a while now, and holding the country with him. Other elements seem to have put a check on him.

BAGHDAD: An American military spokesman said Wednesday that the United States was reviewing an informal request from the Iranian government for an envoy to visit five Iranians imprisoned following an American raid in northern Iraq in January.

The spokesman, Major General William Caldwell 4th, said at a news conference that the request was "being assessed at this time." He added that the Americans had conducted the raid to apprehend people suspected of carrying out "illegal operations" in Iraq.

The general also said the International Committee of the Red Cross had recently been allowed to visit a group of prisoners that included one of the Iranians.

Ali al-Dabbagh, a spokesman for the Iraqi government, said the five Iranians were a subject of discussion at a regional conference held last month in Baghdad that was attended by American and Iranian diplomats.

Talk of the five detainees came on the same day that the Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, said that his country would free 15 British marines and sailors who had been held for nearly two weeks.

quote:

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Americans had conducted the raid to apprehend people suspected of carrying out "illegal operations" in Iraq.

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quote:

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The Ministry of Defence confirmed on Thursday that four soldiers had been killed in a roadside bomb blast and a fifth was seriously injured.

Mr Blair said it was "far too early" to point to any Iranian involvement in that particular attack.

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What time is it, Tony?

quote:

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The captain in charge of the 15 marines detained in Iran has said they were gathering intelligence on the Iranians.

Sky News went on patrol with Captain Chris Air and his team in Iraqi waters close to the area where they were arrested - just five days before the crisis began.

We withheld the interview until now so it would not jeopardise their safety.

And today, former Iranian diplomat Dr Mehrdad Khonsari said if the Iranians had known about it, they would have used it to "justify taking the marines captive and put them on trial".

Captain Air and his team were on an 'Interaction Patrol' where their patrol boats came alongside fishing dhows.

The operation was mainly to investigate arms smuggling and terrorism but Captain Air said it was also to gain intelligence on Iranian activity.

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'We Gathered Intelligence'

Imagine how our chickenhawks would have reacted if an Iranian ship was in or around our waters spying on us. I get a feeling the only new suits they'd receive would have been orange jump suits.

Britain apologizes to Iran

quote:

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An advisor to the Leader of the Islamic Revolution Ayatollah Ali Khamenei says Tehran has received a letter of apology from Britain before the release of the 15 British personnel.

The 15 British sailors and marines, who were detained on March 23 for their illegal entry into Iranian waters, were released on Wednesday and arrived back in England on Thursday.

"Iran set a condition that Britain accepts there was a violation of Iranian waters and gives apologies. On Tuesday, we received a letter of apology from British Prime Minister Tony Blair," former Iranian Foreign Minister said.

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quote:

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The Admiral Sends:

16 July 2002
Opinions Makers With Naval Interest (OMNI)

OP APOLLO

Over the past several months there has been very little in the way of news stories to highlight the stellar work being done by our ships and sailors who are serving in the Arabian Sea, as part of the Campaign Against Terrorism—OP APOLLO. Understandably, a great deal of recent media focus has been placed upon the soldiers of the PPCLI Battle Group operating out of Kandahar, primarily because Canadian and international journalists are in Afghanistan and not at sea with the ships. That said, the Navy is working closely with the Deputy Chief of the Defence Staff, to organize a dedicated media visit out to the ships in the very near future. Despite the seeming low public profile, the Canadian Naval Task Group (TG 307.1), now under the command of Commodore Eric Lerhe, is performing splendidly—on its own and in coalition with our allies. In fact, frequently Cmdre Lerhe has the ships of several different nations, including the USN, under his command for the various missions he undertakes...

Our ships have operated throughout the Southwest Asia region from the waters off Karachi in the North Arabian Sea, through the Gulf of Oman and the Strait of Hormuz to the approaches to Iraq in the Persian Gulf. Our maritime forces both in the Canadian Task Group and the STENNIS Battle Group undertook a wide range of missions from escort to the U.S.N. Amphibious Ready Group to Maritime Interdiction Operations, all of which contributed to the containment of and direct support to combating Al-Qaida terrorists.

Upon arrival, the Task Group participated in the defence of USN amphibious assault ships carrying US Marines. Canadian warships helped to control the seas and airspace around these ships against the most likely terrorist threat—small boats and aircraft. At the same time, we also began to conduct Al-Qaida and Taliban leadership interdiction operations in the North Arabian Sea as a secondary tasking. Our aim was to help deter and prevent Al-Qaida and Taliban members from fleeing Pakistan by sea through the Arabian Peninsula or to the horn of Africa...

---

http://www.navyleague.ca/eng/ma/papers/omni.opapollofinal.16july.pdf.

The mission was drawn down recently.

[ 06 April 2007: Message edited by: bohajal ]

quote:

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Will be interesting to see if more of this story or the interview admiting to "gathering intelligence" prior to capture makes our media.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Khimia:

This is what virtually all nations and their intelligence & armed services do, whether in peace or war. Hardly a revelation.

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Not all of them are stupid and arrogant enough to get caught, though...

And when Canada catches foreigners secretly gathering intelligence on our borders, we dress them up in suits, give them gifts, and fly them home in first class.

quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:
Why would other nations want to gather intelligence on Canada?

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That sounds like a Rick Mercer line! Good one, Webgear.

ETA: Just in case you weren't kidding, Webgear, here's a primer on the subject:

Espionage and Foreign Interference

quote:

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Canada's national and economic security continue to be threatened by espionage and foreign-influenced activity. [...]

In their quest for political and military intelligence, foreign intelligence services constantly attempt to infiltrate key Canadian government departments. Increasing global economic competition is leading many governments-both those representing traditionally "hostile" countries as well as those from countries considered "friendly" to Canada-to shift the focus of their intelligence collection from traditional political and military matters to the illicit acquisition of economic and technological information. Such information can include trade and pricing information, investment strategies, contract details, supplier lists, planning documents, research and development data, technical specifications and drawings, as well as computer databases.

Economic espionage-defined as illegal, clandestine, or coercive activity by foreign governments in order to gain unauthorized access to economic intelligence, such as proprietary information or technology, for economic advantage-costs the economy billions of dollars each year.

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[ 06 April 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]

U.K. captives tell of ill treatment

quote:

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Royal Navy personnel seized by Iran were blindfolded, bound and held in isolation during their 13 days in captivity, the crew have said.

They were also subject to random interrogation and rough handling, and faced constant psychological pressure.

In a joint statement the crew also stressed that they were inside Iraqi waters at the time of the capture.

Royal Marine Captain Chris Air said it became apparent that opposing their captors was "not an option."

"If we had, some of us would not be here today, of that I am completely sure," he said.

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Cowards.

While in Iran, they say publicly they are being "well treated" and they "admit" they were in Iranian waters and "apologize".

Now, they issue a "joint statement" saying it was all false, and they feared for their lives.

Think about it. Your bound and blindfolded, and your officers says "Don't worry lads, we've got Tony Blair in our corner, working for our release."

quote:

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Some commentators said the captured crew members must explain the easygoing demeanor with which they admitted to entering Iranian waters and made televised apologies after their March 23 detention by Iranian Revolutionary Guards. [...]

"The Royal Navy have got some questions to answer," said Charles Heyman, a former lecturer at the Royal Air Force College who also served as a general staff officer in the British Army. "Why did that boarding party not have proper air cover? Why did they board the [searched] ship on the blind side? I don't think that crew was properly trained."

Chris Brown, a professor of international relations at the London School of Economics, said that, depending on what comes out in an investigation of the circumstances, "it seems to me that dishonorable discharge would not be an inappropriate response in some cases."

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quote:

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[The Sun:] "[T]he sight of the illegally detained British forces thanking Iranian tyrants for their freedom will sicken the nation." [...]

[The Daily Mail:] "The international image of Britain as Churchillian bulldog has for ever been replaced by this bunch of hapless stooges grinning and waving for the cameras like contestants cozying up to Leslie Crowther in the final frames of The Price Is Right." [...]

"That area is totally disputed and has been since 1979," says Sunil Ram, a Toronto-based professor of the American Military University. "People who work in those waters know enough to keep to their own side. The crew may have realized that the Iranians were technically right, and they had no incentive not to say the things they said."

And, adds Kamran Bokhari, a senior analyst for Strategic Forecasting Inc., "the British have less stringent rules about talking than American personnel do."

---

Interesting. Apparently, being subject to the Queen's regulations, treason laws, and the threat of courts martial if they deviate from the DOD script, means "speaking freely".

Where are all the outraged right wingers condemning the British government for displaying their captives on TV and making them say those things?

Of course the possibility that they actually were in Iranian waters combined with the fact that they were "gathering intelligence" is being lost in the media circus. Instead we are hearing the same tired tales of "never surrender" and "Britain prevails".

Think about this:

Who the f*** ever heard of military personnel issuing a press statement in their own country?

Personally, I think the results indicate the crew played things right. The officer in charge first goal is the safety of those he's in charge of, not the public image of the nation, or the tangled and confusing foriegn policy objectives of White Hall or the Horse Gaurds or whoever is in chage back in Jolly Olde-- and certainly last in his consideration would be the reactions of Britain's rather idiotic press corps.

As it turns out, they are back home relatively unscathed after a turn in a sticky wicket. A sticky wicket that could have had a car battery at one end, with the other fixed on your yarbles.

And, within days if not hours, a new crisis will arise from Crisisland to push this off the front page.

I dunno, Unionist. While I know they didn't react in accordance to our romantic view of the British Stiff Upper Lip, we weren't there.

quote:

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Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:

I dunno, Unionist. While I know they didn't react in accordance to our romantic view of the British Stiff Upper Lip, we weren't there.

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We're not talking about civilian hostages here. These are military prisoners. Honestly Tommy, I can't recall a single instance where a military prisoner publicly lied, against the interests of their own country, to save their own skin or that of their comrades.

What, you want to court martial these soldiers for embarassing your romantic views of soldiering?

You know, in their shoes I picture myself pitting in my captors face and saying after a round of torture "Is that the best you panzies can do?"

quote:

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Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
What, you want to court martial these soldiers for embarassing your romantic views of soldiering?

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You haven't got another example, do you...

No, I don't want to court-martial them. I actually don't give a shit about these people. My interest is in their warmongering masters, in what they're doing in Iraq, in how they threaten Iran and other countries, in how they abuse their own young people who are foolish enough to sign up and go to war on behalf of their masters.

quote:

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You haven't got another example, do you...

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Oh sure. There was that film of American prisoners in Viet Nam where the Vietmanese were trying to show how cooperative they were, and some, if memory serves, "admitted" that they were criminals, and I don't think anyone really held that against them.

John McCain says everyone breaks at some point, and I'd guess he knows.

Maybe those marines were like you, and think that the mission is bollocks, that thier leadership is crazy.

Are you going to tough it out to save them fleeting discomfort at their desk jobs?

Regardless of the results of any hypothetical polygraph test, people would stick to their positions. Those things are very inaccurate.

Trippie,

quote:

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I just thought it was interesting that they would lie on camera to avoid discomfort. What kind of military is that? Maybe on the battlefield, when faced with real actual danger of death, they should run away?

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You're either a disgusting human being, or you simply have no comprehension of human nature or human morality.

Let's see, their options under torture:

1) Die, or suffer permanent injury, and let their family live on without them, their children without a parent, et cetera.
2) Lie and pretend the Iranians being nice with the knowledge the entire planet will know you're lying and that your confession is forced.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm??????

[ 07 April 2007: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]

quote:

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You're either a disgusting human being, or you simply have no comprehension of human nature or human morality.

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It's probably due to this kind of commentary.

Unionist's character isn't one of a disgusting human being. (although, I have no real evidence regarding his personal hygiene) Sometimes he's wrong and, sometimes he shows a rather admirable strength of changing his mind.

If I were a British soldier and was kidnapped by the Iranians I would say ANYTHING to avoid being burned alive or being beheaded with a dull kitchen knife on video.

quote:

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Are you referring to the Shah, Stockholm, and Savak?

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Are you implying that the current regime in Iran is any less guilty of torture and human rights abuses than the Shah of Iran was?

When the Shah was in power, they had SAVAK that tortured people and committed atrocities. Then came the Iranian "revolution" (or should we call it a counter-revolution?) and presto! SAVAK disappeared and was replaced by "SAVAMA" the new secret police of the Khomeinist regime and guess what? they even employed many of the same torturers!

quote:

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Originally posted by 500_Apples:
You're either a disgusting human being, or you simply have no comprehension of human nature or human morality.

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Is this multiple choice? Ok, I'm a disgusting human being.

quote:

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Let's see, their options under torture:

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quote:

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he persian people did not take any hostages, their backwards, politically unpopular, and holocaust denying government did.

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So, why are we dallying? Let's nuke them all.

Since when has backwardness and political unpopularity ever stopped a western imperialist government? What is so different? The death penalty? In case you failed to notice, the US near the top of nations which murder its own citizens on a regular basis for political reasons.

Who pushed Saddam to attack Iran, and reveled in the misery caused on both sides?

quote:

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In case you failed to notice, the US near the top of nations which murder its own citizens on a regular basis for political reasons.

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[ 08 April 2007: Message edited by: lowermainland ]

quote:

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Are you implying that the current regime in Iran is any less guilty of torture and human rights abuses than the Shah of Iran was? -Stockholm

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The answer is absolutely. The Shah had absolute power and he was an absolute tyrant.

The current regime has a division of power besides the informal conflicts that usually temper tendancies to absolutism.

While there are still human rights abuses, in today's Iran people do not get midnight visits from the Savak and then disappear for ever.

[ 07 April 2007: Message edited by: bohajal ]

quote:

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While there are still human rights abuses, in today's Iran people do not get midnight visits from the Savak and then disappear for ever.

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That's right. In "today's Iran", epopel get midnight vists from SAVAMA and then disappear forever. We already know of one Iranian-Canadian woman who was brutally beaten to death by the Iranian secret police. Imagine how many hundreds of thousands of Iranians who we don't hear about get slaughtered by their government for things like being female and being seen in public without being covered head to toe in religious garb. Women routinely get set up by members of the so-called religious police, who regular rape and beat women to death for the slightest infraction of religious laws...and let's not even get into what happens to anyone gay in Iran except to say that the lucky ones get hanged by the neck until dead - the unlucky ones die much slower more painful deaths.

quote:

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The 15 Royal Navy personnel held captive by Iran are to be allowed to sell their stories to the media.

The Ministry of Defence said their experiences amounted to "exceptional circumstances" that allowed its usual ban on such payments to be lifted.

Politicians and military commentators have attacked the move, warning the crew may lose public sympathy. [...]

Leading Seaman Faye Turney, 26, the only woman in the party, was not among the six personnel who appeared at a press conference on Friday at the Royal Marines Base at Chivenor, Devon.

But reports in the Sunday Times and the Sunday Telegraph said the mother-of-one had now sold her story to ITV1's Tonight with Trevor McDonald programme and a newspaper for more than £100,000.

The Sunday Times reported the marines had decided to pool their money, giving 10% to their service benevolent fund, while the sailors were expected to keep theirs individually.

It said the MoD hoped to retain control over the publicity.

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In 1952 the US (CIA) sponsored a coup that toppled the democratically elected secular Mossadegh government. The US backed the Shah's regime. In 1979, the Shah, his army and his Savak could not resist the popular uprising.

quote:

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This weekend relatives of victims killed or injured in the Iraq war and opposition politicians criticised the authorisation as “inappropriate” and “undignified”. It comes only three days after their release and before they have given detailed evidence to an official inquiry.

Liam Fox, the shadow defence secretary, said: “One of the great things about our armed forces is their professionalism and dignity. Many people who shared the anxiety of the hostages’ abduction will feel that selling their stories is somewhat undignified and falls below the very high standards we have come to expect from our servicemen and women.”

Rose Gentle, whose son Gordon Gentle was killed by a roadside bomb in Basra in Iraq, said the MoD should not allow the servicemen to sell their stories. “This is wrong and I don’t think it should be allowed by the MoD. None of the parents who have lost loved ones in Iraq have sold their stories,” she said.

Critics claimed it had become a media circus, with one former British commander saying the released hostages were behaving like reality TV contestants. Others said they were being used as pawns in the propaganda war with Iran. But some former soldiers said it was a shrewd move by the MoD to control publication of the captives’ stories.

---

quote:

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That's right. In "today's Iran", epopel get midnight vists from SAVAMA and then disappear forever.

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Well, jokes aside, I gotta say Stockholmer, Iran's system is certainly oppresive.
But like someone stated above, there are rules,checks and balances (of sorts), unlike during the Shah.

quote:

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
Imagine how many hundreds of thousands of Iranians who we don't hear about get slaughtered by their government for things like being female and being seen in public without being covered head to toe in religious garb.

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If you want to start a thread about Iraq then go ahead and do it. We are talking about Iran here and what is going on in Iraq provides no excuse whatsoever for the government of Iran to wantonly beat people to death for criticizing the government.

We're talking about fifteen detainees in Iran, and what did or didn't happen to them. The Iranians have been consistent in their statements, and the Brits have been contradicting themselves at every turn. They can't show us physical evidence of abuse [bruises, cuts, whathaveyou] and the video evidence bolsters the Iranian version of events. They haven't presented anything of substance to indicate where the internment happened. They have lied to us repeatedly about related matters.

quote:

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
As usual, every time anyone points out atrocities anywhere in the world, you're response is to dismiss it because what the US is doing in Iraq is "just as bad".

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Actually, I was just poking fun at you for saying hundreds of thousands of Iranians had been slaughtered by the government for "being female".

If you can't take a joke, don't tell any.

Also, in case you've forgotten, you were the one who compared Iranian practices with U.S. ones:

quote:

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The US executes its own citizens (which is 100% deplorable) when they commit crimes such as murder etc... Can you provide a relevent recent example of the US government executing an American citizen for no other reason than that they said "Down with Bush"?

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I simply made another comparison.

You see, the U.S. slaughters people all over the world.

Iran has never attacked another country.

That's why, in the numbers game, you're going to have to make up far bigger fantasies about Iran in order to win. How about: "billions of Iranians tortured and dismembered daily"? Just a friendly suggestion.

[ 08 April 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]

quote:

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Originally posted by bohajal:
While there are still human rights abuses, in today's Iran people do not get midnight visits from the Savak and then disappear for ever.

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No. Instead they get midnight visits from the Revolutionary Guard (I think that's the name?) and get "disappeared". Like what almost happened to my ex-husband (who was tortured by those monsters) and did happen to some of his contemporaries.

[ 08 April 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

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The alleged torture of British Navy personnel by Iraqi Revolutionary Guards was page one news in the New York Times and other US publications on Saturday, and the outrage in America and Britain was almost universal. According to the just released 15 captives, they were blindfolded, then forced to listen to guns being cocked, which led them to believe they might be executed. They were placed in isolation from one another, yelled at, and forced to confess to having trespassed in Iranian territorial waters.

These abusive treatments are all awful, and no one would want to have to endure them, but let’s be honest here: they pale in comparison to what American captives have been put through in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Guantanamo, and at various secret “black sites” around the world from Poland to Ethiopia.

People held in captivity by American forces – military and CIA – are known to have faced mock executions, to have been beaten to the point of death, and to have endured repeated water-boarding sessions. They have been forced to stay in stress positions for so long that they have suffered permanent muscular and neurological damage. They have been subjected to total sensory deprivation, such as we saw was applied to American captive Jose Padilla, to the point that they went insane. They’ve suffered extended sleep deprivation, have been left staked to the ground in desert sun, or left wet and naked for days in front of blasting air-conditioners. They’ve been attacked by dogs, sexually humiliated, raped, and forced to watch the desecration of their Korans.

There are also forms of torture applied which we don’t even know about – the reason provided by federal authorities for blacking out the testimony of captives at military tribunals in Guantanamo, and the reason two convicted “terrorists,” David Hicks and John Walker Lindh, had to sign gag agreements barring them from talking about the conditions of their captivity in public in return for reduced sentences.

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But those of us who criticize Bush should actively criticize it when it is done by Iran, also.

quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:
It is unfortunately true that the Bush regime has little moral standing to criticise torture elsewhere, since it enthusiastically tortures some of those it opposes.

But those of us who criticize Bush should actively criticize it when it is done by Iran, also.

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Hi jeff house, good to see you posting again!

I don't think Bush's worst crime is torture. I think it's that he invades countries, kills innocents, interferes everywhere, captures people and holds them without colour of right or law, forever, with or without torture.

Reducing any discussion about Bush and U.S. imperialism to its methods, rather misses the point.

If both the U.S. and Iran torture people, I will still spend 99.999% of my time condemning the U.S. war criminals and the rest, well, doing something else.

quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:
But those of us who criticize Bush should actively criticize it when it is done by Iran, also.

---

quote:

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Relatives of soldiers killed in Iraq have criticised the decision allowing the crew to sell their stories.

Lord Heseltine, the former deputy prime minister and defence secretary, has called for an inquiry into the decision to allow the sale of stories.

And Lieutenant Felix Carman, who was among those held, has said he finds it "unsavoury" that his fellow captives are being paid to tell their story. [...]

[Leading Seaman Turney:] "I was offered a hell of a lot of money for my story. I've not taken the biggest offer, I've gone down...because I wanted to speak to yourself and the Sun because I knew my point would be put across.

"I want everyone out there to know my story from my side, see what I went through," she told the programme. [...]

The MoD said its decision would ensure officials "had sight" of what might be said as well ensuring "proper media support" to the captured crew members. [...]

Maj Gen Patrick Cordingley, who led the Desert Rats in the first Gulf War, said he was "depressed" by the decision to sell stories as they had "not overplayed their experiences" in the press conference which took place when they returned to the UK.

He said the Ministry of Defence or the government seems to be "manipulating this whole particular process" for propaganda purposes.

---

quote:

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I'm of the school -- though only speculating -- that the Supreme Leader did not authorize the capture of the British military unit. But there are others who tell me that there is no way that such an action would take place without the Supreme Leader's full support and approval. At this point, many tell me we will never know whether there was a gap or not between Iran's chief Ayatollah and the Iranian Revolutionary Guard that took this action.

If a gap were acknowledged, such information could destabilize Iran on many levels. I think that there was a gap. The more I learn about Iran's power structures and political contours, the more I believe that the arrest of the British soldiers was designed to warn the Supreme Leader Khamenei and other political nodes in Iran that the Revolutionary Guard cannot be pushed, constrained, mismanaged, embarrassed, or forced to accept an acquiescent position on its own nuclear pretensions.

I think that the Revolutionary Guard took action first to warn other parts of Iran's political order that it could provoke war whenever it wanted. I think too that the Revolutionary Guard was probably not instructed by Khamenei to conduct the arrest of these soldiers -- though I respect those who see this differently. It's simply too irrational a move for the Supreme Leader to have taken.

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quote:

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If both the U.S. and Iran torture people, I will still spend 99.999% of my time condemning the U.S. war criminals and the rest, well, doing something else.

I think that's a principled position.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:

So I take that the fact that the government of Iran tortures and beats to death an Iranian-Canadian journalist or that it regularly stones teenage boys to death for beinbg gay - makes you indifferent and it doesn't distract you from whistling a happy tune as you do your shopping?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

So I take that the fact that the government of Iran tortures and beats to death an Iranian-Canadian journalist or that it regularly stones teenage boys to death for beinbg gay - makes you indifferent and it doesn't distract you from whistling a happy tune as you do your shopping?

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Torture takes place in all too many countries--including Israel which you ceaselessly defend.

A Canadian focus on criticizing the US (including its torture system) is warranted because Canada provides assistance to the US specifically related to its proclivities for torture. Canada also provides military and political assistance to that same country in its imperial and illegal invasions and occupations of other countries.

The US is also the country with which many in Canada are pushing for an ever greater "deep integration".

One well-crafted technique for this is to demand the impossible.

For example, someone wrote:

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I will believe the Iranians, until evidence to the contrary surfaces..like polygraphs.

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Now, what is the likelihood that President Ahmadinejad will be taking a lie detector test anytime soon? Isn't this just a way of closing your eyes?

As for the Brits, write them a letter, tell them you'll pay them $10,000.00 to take the test, and I bet you'll have some takers.

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Originally posted by jeff house:
It is obvious that some posters simply need to give Iran the benefit of the doubt, and don't extend the same standard of doubt to others.

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Speaking for myself, in a situation where many reports indicate the U.S. is preparing for war against Iran, I don't think it behooves progressive people to pile on and help them out.

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Speaking for myself, in a situation where many reports indicate the U.S. is preparing for war against Iran, I don't think it behooves progressive people to pile on and help them out.

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I totally oppose any US invasion of Iran, but that doesn't mean that I have to become an apologist for this revoltingly evil government of Iran that possesses NOT ONE SINGLE SOLITARY REDEEMING FEATURE.

By turning a blind eye to tyranny in Iran all we do is make ourselves look like dupes and fools. I wonder if it was like this in 1930s when some very naive Communists fellow-travellers in the western world were putting their fingers in their ears everytime there was any discussion of Stalin slaughtering millions of Ukrainians and launching purges.

Its so simple to just cling to these old shibboleths like "US bad, Muslim countries good" (even when once in a while there are regimes that are BOTH enemies of the US and also totally evil reactionary theocracies)

How does it advance the cause of social justice and equity in the world to be acting as an apologist to a government of rightwing religious zealots that kill anyone who opposes their religious fanaticism. A government where women get beaten to death and raped for not living according to 13th century Islamic precepts. A country where gay men get stoned to death or burned alive because of who they choose to love. A country that has not moved one millimeter towards any social justice and where there is still vast concentration of wealth. A country that had its "counter-revolution" almost 30 years ago and where nothing has inmproved for anyone - unless you are some thuggish member of the religious police who is now free to rape women anytime you feel like it.

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totally oppose any US invasion of Iran, but that doesn't mean that I have to become an apologist for this revoltingly evil government of Iran that possesses NOT ONE SINGLE SOLITARY REDEEMING FEATURE.

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I think they should produce solid evidence of the location where the takedown happened, if they can.

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Its so simple to just cling to these old shibboleths like "US bad, Muslim countries good"

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Gosh Stock, I haven't heard anyone supporting the Jordainian government on Babble, or the Qatari government, or the Barahni government, or the Yemini government, or the Saudi government or even the Syrian or Iraqi governments....

[ 09 April 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

I totally oppose any US invasion of Iran, but that doesn't mean that I have to become an apologist for this revoltingly evil government of Iran that possesses NOT ONE SINGLE SOLITARY REDEEMING FEATURE.

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Some more of Iran's disgusting failures.

They haven't invaded anyone.
They haven't annexed anyone else's land.
They haven't littered a country with millions of unexploded bomblets.
They haven't systematically forced out the original population and replaced it with ethnically based homeland.
They haven't made the preceding crime an ongoing and expanding process.

Actually, they are interfering in Iraq because they want an Iranian puppet Shiite state in southeren Iraq. They have also financed terrorist groups around the world who have blown up buildings (ie: blowing up the Jewish community centre in Buenos Aires). They are also a country whose regime serves as a beacon of hope and inspiration to hateful mysogynistic religious fanatics the world over.

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They have also financed terrorist groups around the world who have blown up buildings (ie: blowing up the Jewish community centre in Buenos Aires).

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You keep saying this, but I really doubt its true.

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Originally posted by Jingles:
You keep saying this, but I really doubt its true.

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would you believe Wikipedia?

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On October 25, 2006, Argentine prosecutors Alberto Nisman and Marcelo Martínez Burgos formally accused the government of Iran of directing the bombing, and the Hezbollah militia of carrying it out.According to the prosecution's claims in 2006, Argentina had been targeted by Iran after Buenos Aires' decision to suspend a nuclear technology transfer contract to Tehran. This however, has been disputed, because this contract was never terminated, and Iran and Argentine were negotiating on restoration of full cooperation on all agreements from early 1992 till 1994, when the bombing occurred.

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On October 25, 2006, Argentine prosecutors Alberto Nisman and Marcelo Martínez Burgos formally accused the government of Iran of directing the bombing, and the Hezbollah militia of carrying it out.According to the prosecution's claims in 2006, Argentina had been targeted by Iran after Buenos Aires' decision to suspend a nuclear technology transfer contract to Tehran. This however, has been disputed, because this contract was never terminated, and Iran and Argentine were negotiating on restoration of full cooperation on all agreements from early 1992 till 1994, when the bombing occurred.

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That it reiterates inconclusive charges linking Iran to the Buenos Aires bombing, as allegation. Repeating allegations does not prove them.

While I agree there seems to be some substance to the charges, nothing conclusive has been proved, and various scandals surrounding the judicial investigations and proceedings make it highly unlikely that anyone will ever know what actually happened.

[ 11 April 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Frankly, I wouldn't put it past the judiciary in Argentina to cover up the activities of their own homegrown anti-semitic underground, which was at one time, not merely an underground, but actually the government by fobbing off responsibility on the usual and all to convenient suspects. No doubt the old boys network still exists, especially within the judciary and the police force, and the army the old centers of their power base.

This is not to say that I don't think that those antisemitic elements in Argentina might not have put themselves in league with militants from Hexbollah, but I highly doubt, even in that case, that orders were coming from Tehran.

There is simply no cohesive motive. And even the one being parlayed by the Argentine prosecutors, is obviously flawed, as explained by JPJ's wikipedia link.

The fact is that despite your histrionics about blowing up community centers "around the world," something that would be quite achievable mind you, the fact is that this is an isolated incident, so even on face value it seems that the attack was specific in motive, relating to Argentina.

[ 11 April 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
Would you put it past the thugs who govern Iran to want to blow up Jewish community centres around the world just for the pure pleasure of doing it?

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