I realize that the leveling of mountains to strip mine coal, a highy polluting energy source, is not good for the earth.

So moving from one occupation to another doesn't really effect the overall tendency of capital to abuse resources 'til they're gone.

Much better to turn your efforts to doing what is possible to restrain (or overturn) capital.

I'll grant that seems an impossible task at the moment, but still worthy of effort.

[ 01 April 2005: Message edited by: maestro ]

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Originally posted by Mike Keenan:
Well, first of all you work in railways, not coal mining. Railways are inherently good; given that stuff is being moved, they're the greenest way to move it.

But even if you worked in coal mining, it's arguably not as bad to work for such an industry as to buy from it, since they'll hire someone for it anyway. It would, however, put you in a potential conflict of interest situation, in that your enthusiasm for a more progressive environmental policy might be dampened by the risk of losing your job, and that might affect your activism I suppose.

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As far as I know, anyone who buys electricity in Saskatchewan is buying coal produced energy. I am not sure about other provinces.

Yes, the railway is undoubtedly the greenest transportation option. That was part of the reason I sought a job there.

As I am unionized employee (conductor), I am not under threat of losing my job for my envronmental opinions.

It's just that when I am pulling 10000 tons of caol, i can't help but feel a little guilty.

[ 01 April 2005: Message edited by: gabong ]

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Originally posted by maestro:
In a sense, there are no 'good' jobs within a capitalist system. All work destroys the environment is some way, and how that happens is up to the whims and wishes of the bourgeiosie.

So moving from one occupation to another doesn't really effect the overall tendency of capital to abuse resources 'til they're gone.

[ 01 April 2005: Message edited by: maestro ]

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Originally posted by quagmire:

Take a look at how the communists abused the enviroment in China and the USSR and then tell me how bad capitalism is. They make Daddy Warbucks look like Greenpeace.

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Originally posted by quagmire:

Take a look at how the communists abused the enviroment in China and the USSR and then tell me how bad capitalism is. They make Daddy Warbucks look like Greenpeace.

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Yeah, for rather similar reasons. It was just a different bourgeoisie... and there were fewer democratic restraints on that bourgeoisie than there are here.

[ 01 April 2005: Message edited by: Mike Keenan ]

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Take a look at how the communists abused the enviroment in China and the USSR and then tell me how bad capitalism is. They make Daddy Warbucks look like Greenpeace.

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Actually they don't. They don't make Daddy Warbucks look like anything at all.

There is no prior restraint in the capitalist system. All restraint has to be fought for, tenaciously.

China now is not doing anything different than what the first industrialized countries did before they found the way to outsource manufacturing. The bulk of the China's pollution is still benefitting the US. They are the consumers, not China.

If one adds up all of the resources used by the G8, you will find they are responsible for by far the largest consumption. The US alone consumes 25% of the world's oil. If you don't think that degrades the environment you just haven't been paying attention.

What the G8 has been good at over the years is moving the pollution to the 3rd world, while retaining the rights to consume the production that causes the pollution.

So there is no doubt capitalism is the creator of the bulk of the world's pollution.

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I agree. Thank goodness we don't live in a simplistic binary world, where the only two choices are Stalinism and rampant corporate 'free marketism'. That would be an awful world, full of straw men put up by simpletons with delusions of erudition.

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Originally posted by blacklisted:
i have also brought many people into the union movement,

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Well, this is another question that this topic raises, I guess. Is the fact that the industry is unionized enough to make the work okay?

Alas. The problem was, my work was completely market-based, the animals were treated only when they were worth something on the market. When farms have lots of animals (the markets encourage this), they also use more preventive treatments and larger quantities of medicines.

When not treated, or unsuccessfully treated, their carcass was a big waste item that needs to be transported away for incineration.

I used truck or SUV to get from farm to farm; sometimes I did 400 kms in a day. I used lots of antibiotics and anti-inflammatories to treat disease; lots of waste in terms of needles, syringes, bottles, plastic wrappers, etc. I used a lot of disinfectant which got washed into the wastewater system.

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For instance, some would argue that one of the best unions in the country is the CAW when it comes to militancy and solidarity. And yet, it's filled with members who make earth-destroying status symbols for a living, and whose jobs depend on North American overconsumption and overuse of vehicles. I, for instance, would feel very guilty working in a plant that makes SUVs, and that wouldn't be lessened by the fact that I was supporting the union movement by being a member of the CAW.

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Originally posted by Michelle:

Well, this is another question that this topic raises, I guess. Is the fact that the industry is unionized enough to make the work okay?

For instance, some would argue that one of the best unions in the country is the CAW when it comes to militancy and solidarity. And yet, it's filled with members who make earth-destroying status symbols for a living, and whose jobs depend on North American overconsumption and overuse of vehicles. I, for instance, would feel very guilty working in a plant that makes SUVs, and that wouldn't be lessened by the fact that I was supporting the union movement by being a member of the CAW.

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