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Globe and Mail 03/02/07

Women taking a stand to sit up front

Canadian joins group bringing segregation on buses to court in Israel

By Carolynne Wheeler
Special to The Globe and Mail

Jerusalem -- It began as a peaceful morning, with a religious woman boarding a bus just after daybreak to take her to the Old City to pray.

But Miriam Shear's day quickly turned ugly when she was ordered by a reli-gious man to move to the back of the bus, a common practice on many routes serving the religious population.
Ms. Shear, a 50-year-old Toronto-area resident who was in Israel that November day for religious study, re-fused politely when he demanded her seat, pointing to several others nearby. He yelled and spat on her. Incensed, she spat back. In the 20-minute scuffle that followed, which was joined by four other men, she was slapped, pushed out of her seat and onto the floor, beaten and kicked; her hair covering fell off, a great shame for a married religious woman, and she suffered bruising to her cheek....

The Haredi, or ultra-orthodox sect of Judaism, follows a strict code of religious law, including modest, traditional clothing for both men and women. Men and women do not touch unless they are married or closely related and women are expected to cover their heads after marrying with wigs, snoods or hats.

....Yet even as she speaks, the heavily pregnant Ms. Orlowick grabs at a handrail as she casts around for a seat in the crowded rear, though there are several places open at the front.

But secular passengers have reported being harassed or kicked off for what other passengers deem inappropriate dress, and even modestly dressed women have been verbally abused for refusing to board through a rear entrance and sit at the back....

In recent months, reports have emerged of so-called bleach patrols trolling the religious neighbourhoods of Jerusalem, throwing bleach on the clothing of women they deem to be immodest and threatening clothing stores whose displays are considered too racy. At least two clothing stores -- one in Jerusalem, one in the religious community of Bnei Brak -- have also been set on fire in attacks associated with their wares.

More serious is a new rabbinical ruling that has ordered an end to postsecondary degree programs for Haredi women, even within ultra-orthodox educational institutions, a move that threatens to drive many of their large families deeper into poverty. In this society, a man who spends his days studying religious texts is of high regard, and women are expected to work to support their families....

The question for liberal thinkers is to find the right equilibrium between these two main concerns: women's rights and human rights on one hand, and the right of the group to maintain its way of life."

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The question for liberal thinkers is to find the right equilibrium between these two main concerns: women's rights and human rights on one hand, and the right of the group to maintain its way of life."

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Because this "woman supression" phenomena appears to be growing, and expanding in intensity and breadth, it needs serious contemplation and discussion, leading to a course of action. The exponential expansion lead one to contemplate the implications of what the concluding result could mean, are concerning to say the least. To simply shrug this off as not pertaining to me, on the part of western women, needs revisiting.

First of all, on the question of women's rights, there are many reasons for this. Women's subjugation may not be entirely intelligble from the tanach and talmud (though it's there...), but women's equality is very much associated with the world of the goyim. The implication is that treating women on an equal footing is a precursor to assimilation and to a loss of traditional values. A few years ago, I considered becoming religious again, and was attending weekly Talmud sessions. I stopped when we got the part that discusses what happens to a woman when she's accused of adultery. She's poisoned and they poisoning her until she confesses, though if she's truly innocent she doesn't die at the end. The rabbi told us if the husband is concerned, obviously the woman is doing something wrong. I personally wasn't inclined to take this ancient text (the Talmud) too seriously. However, even though there was divinely-commanded gender roles in the tanach, there were still strong women like Miriam, like Deborah, who played independent roles. However, in a community that largely defines itself as not being assimilated into western depravity (like the haredi community), some ideas will be more readily absorbed than others.

The other aspect is that these people, those mentioned in the article, do religion basically as a business decision. It makes you part of a community, which has some security and status involved with that, and grants you self-righteousness. In reality, beating another human being and spitting on them are certainly not sanctioned by even the ancient text that is the Talmud.

They're very unpopular among the secular majority in Israel because they tend to be exempted from military service, and around 40% of them are on welfare. They also disproportionately vote for the anti-peace parties, creating a long-term impediment.

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I think that we have to recognize that human rights and multi-culturalism are often at odds with one another, and that progressive, secular social values must trump any cultural or religious values that they conflict with.
People should only have the right to practice and perserve the parts of any culture that do not conflict with the recognized rights of others. -Jerry West

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Had governments taken seriously legislations and enforcement of human rights in Canada it would have signaled that any denial and abuse of human rights are not only unacceptable but have serious consequences. To blame multiculturalism is an unfortunate cheap shot, Jerry.

Where have you been when denials of people's human rights were not prosecuted because our human rights commissions are -the mantra here- "understaffed and overworked". When denial of human rights have been "prosecuted" and a $500.00 dollars "damages" were levied on perpetrators, after an average of 5 years of "processing" cases.

Where were you in the nineties when the national media was reporting that people think -rightly- that Canada's human rights commissions are a joke?

Governments, by not taking human rights seriously, by not allocating enough financial and human resources to enforce HR laws- set the standard, with the complicity of the public which -vastly- did not give a fig... Only for such public to come out now and blame multiculturalism.

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Originally posted by Abdul_Maria:
then i'm thinking ... probably, many such articles have been written, and not covered by the mainstream media.

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There are two important lessons in the story of the murder of Europe’s Jews.

First, that there is no limit to the savagery of imperialism. If not opposed, it will exterminate entire peoples, like the Palestinians.

Second, to fight back against imperialism we need a broad unity of peoples of many faiths and nationalities.

In my own background lies an example of this concept. I was born to a Jewish family in France during the Second World War. The French government was then rounding up the Jews, solely because of their religious and ethnic background, and deporting them to Hitler’s death camps.

My parents belonged to a Jewish resistance organization. It was united with other immigrant groups and with French working people – Jewish, Christian, and Muslim together – in the battle against the Nazis.

The resistance saved the lives of thousands of Jewish children in France, including me. And this resistance struck heavy blows against French racism and anti-Jewish hatred, which are felt to this day.

Today we must join in a similar broad alliance, this time to defend the Palestinians and to oppose Zionism.

The Zionists’ aggressive policies in the Middle East are against the interests of Jewish people and Palestinians alike, all of whom have a stake in a peaceful and united Middle East.

Palestinian liberation offers the Jewish people in the Middle East the prospect of brotherhood and peace. - Source

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Originally posted by Abdul_Maria:
i wish a person that is Jewish and well known would dare to speak the truth - that Israel is treating the Palestinians similarly to how Hitler treated the Jewish people - as expendable.

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A Nigerian guy I worked with once told me he was a little suspicious of the general attitude that Canadians are easy going, wouldn't day shit if we had a mouthful. He suggested to me that Canadians have never known war on our front doorsteps, or hunger, or scarcity in general. I shot back that yes we did, or at least my father's family did in the 1930's, and that my elder brothers and sisters grew up somewhat poor by today's standards.

"do unto others as you would have them do to you"

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Originally posted by 500_Apples:

First of all, on the question of women's rights, there are many reasons for this. Women's subjugation may not be entirely intelligble from the tanach and talmud (though it's there...), but women's equality is very much associated with the world of the goyim. The implication is that treating women on an equal footing is a precursor to assimilation and to a loss of traditional values. A few years ago, I considered becoming religious again, and was attending weekly Talmud sessions. I stopped when we got the part that discusses what happens to a woman when she's accused of adultery. She's poisoned and they poisoning her until she confesses, though if she's truly innocent she doesn't die at the end. The rabbi told us if the husband is concerned, obviously the woman is doing something wrong. I personally wasn't inclined to take this ancient text (the Talmud) too seriously. However, even though there was divinely-commanded gender roles in the tanach, there were still strong women like Miriam, like Deborah, who played independent roles. However, in a community that largely defines itself as not being assimilated into western depravity (like the haredi community), some ideas will be more readily absorbed than others.

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sidra:

To blame multiculturalism is an unfortunate cheap shot, Jerry.

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So you are arguing that mulit-culturalism never conflicts with human rights and progressive, secular social values?

Multi-culturalism isn't all bad, and certainly isn't the only culprit, but unfettered multi-culturalism can lead into some dark and nasty places, like sharia law, for instance.

Multi-culturalism cannot be defended rationally (and should not be glorified) from a progressive position without caveats and limitations that recognize that not all cultural elements are desireable or acceptable.

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Where have you been when....

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Irrelevant to the point being made.

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Had governments taken seriously legislations and enforcement of human rights in Canada it would have signaled that any denial and abuse of human rights are not only unacceptable but have serious consequences.

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Probably true, but may have put government on a collision course with some cultural values more than they wanted to be.

Do you agree, yes or no, that:

• human rights and multi-culturalism are often at odds with one another
  
• that progressive, secular social values must trump any cultural or religious values that they conflict with
  
• that people should only have the right to practice and perserve the parts of any culture that do not conflict with the recognized rights of others
  

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sidra:
To blame multiculturalism is an unfortunate cheap shot, Jerry.

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Jerry West:
So you are arguing that mulit-culturalism never conflicts with human rights and progressive, secular social values?

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No I am not arguing what you suggest I am. I am arguing that whether multiculturalism or melting-pot, clash of human rights with civil liberties does occur. Even in a totally homegenous society, human rights of some may conflict with human rights or civil rights of others.

Has little to do with multiculturalism.

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Jerry West:
Multi-culturalism isn't all bad, and certainly isn't the only culprit, but unfettered multi-culturalism can lead into some dark and nasty places...

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Again Multiculturalism has little do with this. Melting pot can also lead into dark and nasty places...[

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Jerry West:
...like sharia law

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You mentioned Sharia:

The Sharia boogy affects those who do not understand what Sharia is and what the issue was all about, those who jump to imagine women being stoned at the Nathan Philip Square and those who are simply allergic to the word Islam. I am none of these.

Marrion Boyd's report stressed that any Sharia mediation should observe the laws of the land, women's rights, children's rights, Ontario Family law, and what have you. But fear-mongering by Tarek Fatah and al. joined by some islamophobes had already infested many quarters.

Sharia mediation is not allowed to be under scrutiny now. Sharia went underground where it was befor. Women and children's human rights are probably being trampled upon. I guess that satisfies strategically myopic Tarek Fatah and the rest of the anti-Sharia crowd. The problem is under the rug now, who cares.

Besides, Sharia mediation was also to be established to apply to Muslims' commercial transactions: To discourage interest on financial loans, to discourage investment in companies that engage or promote militarism and military entreprises and in companies that mistreat their workers, to discourage gambling.. things that cannot be said to be running against progressive ideals.

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Jerry West:
Multi-culturalism cannot be defended rationally (and should not be glorified) from a progressive position without caveats and limitations that recognize that not all cultural elements are desireable or acceptable.

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Even within (a non-multicultural) homogenous society, not all cultural elements are desireable. Take away multi-culturalism and the problem is still there.

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sidra:

Where have you been when....

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Jerry West:
Irrelevant to the point being made.

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Sorry Jerry, but I do believe it is relevant. How? What would you think if one has been silent on human rights violations and failures to enforce human rights laws when the 'ethnic' and 'cultural' are the victims, only to speak out about human rights and their protection when some "ethnic" or "cultural" becomes the perpetrator of human rights violations. Don't you wonder about logic, motivation?

I am not suggesting it is the case with you personally. But I find such 'awakening' to human rights curious.

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sidra:
Had governments taken seriously legislations and enforcement of human rights in Canada it would have signaled that any denial and abuse of human rights are not only unacceptable but have serious consequences.

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Jerry West:
Probably true, but may have put government on a collision course with some cultural values more than they wanted to be.

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Again, collision courses are bound to happen with or without multiculturalism. Look at the melting pot United States.

I guess we do not agree and I will leave it at that.

[ 04 February 2007: Message edited by: sidra ]

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Sidra, could you please explain to me why you perceive Jerry was attacking multi-culturalism? As I did not read it that way, and I have perhaps missed something that you see. -remind

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Please quote me as saying that Jerry West is attacking multiculturalism. What I said is that he is blaming multiculturalism.

There is a difference, remind.

[ 04 February 2007: Message edited by: sidra ]

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Multi-culturalism cannot be defended rationally

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Sidra:

I am arguing that whether multiculturalism or melting-pot, clash of human rights with civil liberties does occur. Even in a totally homegenous society, human rights of some may conflict with human rights or civil rights of others.

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We have no dispute between us on this, however you go on to say:

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Has little to do with multiculturalism.

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Which I guess depends on how one defines little, because you previous argument confirms that multi-culturalism among other things can be part of the problem.

Should you be responding to the mistaken idea that I am singling out multi-culturalism as the only issue affecting the advancement of human rights, then of course you are sparring with a strawman not of my creation.

My position is that multi-culturalism improperly applied can have an adverse effect on human rights and a progressive and secular society and needs to be implemented with caveats and limitations.

One should not assume, also, that I am defending the melting pot approach. I am not making comparisons between methods, just pointing out that multi-culturalism has problems that require caution.

That is reality, as your responses seem to affirm, so it is difficult to figure out why you see it as a cheap shot?

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The Sharia boogy affects those who do not understand what Sharia is....

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It is religious law, like other religious laws, based on theocentric fantasies claiming an authority greater than the democratic decisions of society. All such laws should be rejected. Which is not to say that the ones that society find important enough to enact on its own authority can not become law with legal rather than theological justification.

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Sorry Jerry, but I do believe it is relevant. How? What would you think if one has been silent on human rights violations and failures to enforce human rights laws when the 'ethnic' and 'cultural' are the victims, only to speak out about human rights and their protection when some "ethnic" or "cultural" becomes the perpetrator of human rights violations. Don't you wonder about logic, motivation?

I am not suggesting it is the case with you personally. But I find such 'awakening' to human rights curious.

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The cheap shot in this dialogue is making an uniformed assumption about someone's motivation and attacking with it. And it is irrelevant to the issue, whether it is accurate or not.

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What I said is that he is blaming multiculturalism.

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And I am, to a degree, but I am not blaming it exclusively which is a point that seemed to be ignored.

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Frustrated Mess:
What? Are you serious? I would argue multi-culturalism is the only rational living arrangement outside of closed, xenophobic societies.

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Perhaps you should consider my whole statement instead of cherry picking a partial sentence to create a strawman. Here is your opportunity to read it all again in its entirety:

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Multi-culturalism cannot be defended rationally (and should not be glorified) from a progressive position without caveats and limitations that recognize that not all cultural elements are desireable or acceptable.

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Or maybe you do support cultural elements that promote abuse, and in some old cases, canniblism? Perhaps we should tolerate the ascendancy of Pat Robertson's culture?

One does not have to accept everything that every culture does to avoid being xenophobic.