Not that I'd be so presumptuous to consider myself a "feminist" male, but many of feminisms "enemies" are my "enemies", so we tread the same paths from time to time. But one does have to look at one's allies, and understand that the enemy of my enemy is not in all cases my friend.

One of the things that used to confuse me is the feminist angle on sex. When I was younger, I viewed it as quite a mine field. Even before I heard what people say Andrea Dworkin says about it, I figured the feminist angle was that heterosexual sex was of course symbolic, that what happened in the bedroom was indicative of one's deep seated attitudes towards women in general.

But as I got older, I started to realize that this isn't true. That there is a separation between what people hold in fantasy, and how people can and should treat each other in reality.

So, in my mind, that's the real division. There are some who don't make that separation, and those that do; and it strikes me that there may be division within feminism on this issue as it seems to be something either you get or you don't, irrespective of social/political affiliation or philosophy.

So, what is the current state of affairs in feminism today? Are we allowed unfettered (or *ahem* fettered) roll play in the boudoire? Or is this area of male/female relationships still something to be looked at sideways, with suspicions of darker meanings?

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]

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So, what is the current state of affairs in feminism today? Are we allowed unfettered (or *ahem* fettered) roll play in the boudoire? Or is this area of male/female relationships still something to be looked at sideways, with suspicions of darker meanings?

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"Roll" play!!!!! ROFLMAO!!!! Whether you meant the double entendre or not, best giggle I've had all day -- Thanks!

You know, the "heterosexual sex (or, more particularly, penetration) as inherently violating" thing never made much sense to me... That ties our equality to biology and makes it inherently impossible for those of us who are not inclined to homosexuality. Which I do not buy. Of course, discussions along that line have also found me accused of being a bad feminist, or a non-feminist. Which I also do not buy....

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I think that whatever two consenting adults do together, whether male of female takes a dominant role, whether you like to tie each other up or not, is acceptable and nobody else's business. What's wrong with a little role-play game, as long as everybody is happy playing it? Haven't we spent enough of our time, historically speaking, being repressed?

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Most feminists I know would agree.

Edited to add: I love the title of this thread!

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: 'lance ]

I figure, as long as you keep it between the consenting adults and don't tell anybody, politics and ideaology need not cramp your style.

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The bottom line ...

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"Roll" play!!!!! ROFLMAO!!!! Whether you meant the double entendre or not, best giggle I've had all day -- Thanks!

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That was, I admit, a "Fruedian typo". And, it's not the first time I've done that. I went for a protracted period once, using the words were and where in place of each other. I think it's not an English problem as much as it is some kind of motor skill quirk with the typing.

Notwithstanding the fact that my spelling has been refered to once as "evocative."

So...until we have achieved equality sex will remain a "minefield". Men would benefit from examining the power imbalances between their partner and them to make sure their sex is as consenting as it can be.

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I figure, as long as you keep it between the consenting adults and don't tell anybody, politics and ideaology need not cramp your style.

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Not talk about sex? What a horrifying thought...

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Men would benefit from examining the power imbalances between their partner and them to make sure their sex is as consenting as it can be.

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A very salient point.

As I've said in other threads about scepticism, it's best applied first to one's self. When people ask me how I'd define the difference between humans and the other apes, I always answer:

"Humans are the only ape that has a demonstrable capability for self delusion."

Pile on to that the at times overwhelming sexual imperatives, and it's a wonder we don't mess up more often than what we do.

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It's gotta be fun, at the very least, otherwise, why bother? Wanting to be tied up by a man shouldn't make me a bad feminist. Maybe just a bad girl ...

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I, for one, used to believe otherwise, but came to your point of view many years ago. I can separate fantasy and reality pretty well, I think. I find that quite a liberating thing in itself. I trust myself to be able to indulge my imagination, knowing it is in no danger of impacting reality. This goes beyond what two or more persons would do in the bedroom, it impacts on my thoughts on pornography or violence in films.

The very presentation of sex and or violence in media has as it's starting point fantasy. Movies and books are works of fiction, of imagination. I don't believe they can cause all but the most mentally imbalanced of us to ACT a certain way-- unless we consciously permit them to.

But, there are those who would disagree with this, and it's my hypothesis that they might not be able to separate fantasy and reality, and perhaps do battle with their imaginations-- sexual or otherwise.

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Hey, I make Miz West look like a girl scout.

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The very presentation of sex and or violence in media has as it's starting point fantasy. Movies and books are works of fiction, of imagination. I don't believe they can cause all but the most mentally imbalanced of us to ACT a certain way-- unless we consciously permit them to.

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I should come up, and see you some time.

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This is true of any one particular movie, for a mature person. But consider what happens if a person of 16 or 18 years, with little or no experience of relationships, sees sex presented in a certain way, over and over. If he sees male characters as domineering and female ones as submissive (and indecisive: when a girl says no, she just wants the man to be more persistent, more forceful...). He accepts it as the norm, especially if his own proclivities lie in that direction. Very big danger there.

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Movies and books are works of fiction, of imagination. I don't believe they can cause all but the most mentally imbalanced of us to ACT a certain way-- unless we consciously permit them to.

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*devil's advocate mode*

If movies and books cannot change the behaviour of anybody other than the most mentally imbalanced, why does the advertising industry bother trying. Surely advertising has the effect of changing behaviour in more than just the most mentally imbalanced.

So, with my libidinous curiosity aroused, I turned to Google ... can't stop giggling.

Here's one juicy item:

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For Females Only
A great deal can also be done with female genitalia. Some women love having clothespins on their pussy lips; some love light whipping on their outer labia, or even their clitoris. Sometimes body piercings can be used for bondage; labia piercings can hold a pussy open very delightfully, or clit hood piercings can be tied up out of the way with thread, leaving the clit naked and exposed. Some women like soft fur on their pussy; others like to be alternately soothed and tormented until they can stand no more.

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I suspect that alot of people who are genuinely inclined toward BDSM role-playing initially understood that they were into it when they were adolescents.

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If movies and books cannot change the behaviour of anybody other than the most mentally imbalanced, why does the advertising industry bother trying.

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That's interesting, and this and nonesuch's points have caused me to re-examine, and put a finer point on my argument.

Certainly, there's influence there. But, I don't think it's the type of influence that some would have it to be. I don't think to take nonesuch's exmaple, that the scene in "Gone With the Wind" where Rhet Butler forcefully takes (oh god, mental blank on her name) the reluctant woman upstairs can turn a guy into a rapist, date rapist or otherwise. There are just too many other real life influences that are contrary to the fantasy on the screen.

If there is an influence there, it is certainly one where a person rationalizes to such an extent that it is something we should regard as a serious mental imbalance.

As Rebecca pointed out, perhaps if a kid lived in a bubble, and was fed nothing but movies with sexual violence, and nothing but images of women in the role of victim, perhaps this would have an impact. But, that's not what happens.

One of the very curious things about advertising to children is that it tends to be the most factually questionable there is. Toys are always better, bigger, more interesting on T.V. than what they really are in reality. Advertisers manage to jade people at a very early age, so I tend to think there is an opposite effect than what everyone thinks it does.

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Phew, what a bunch of f****ing nutballs! And I still do not know what BDSM stands for.

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After spellunking BDSM newsgroups and getting to know a few dominants and submissives on line, there are, I can say, some "f****ing nutballs". But astoundingly, many are not, and those that aren't tend to sort out the nutballs pretty quick.

And, "nutballs" can be identified as people who have a problem distinguishing fantasy and reality.

Much of what you see looks a lot worse that what it actually is. I once was totally aghast and very much disturbed by a picture of a mouse trap on a woman's delicate parts-- all I could think of was the rhodent smooshing "SNAP" of a trap closing. Obviously, they are applied gently, and as such can be worn anywhere and produce only a sensation, much like clothes pegs and other such items. The painful part isn't when they are applied, or worn. It's when they are removed.

Anyway, it wasn't my intent to segue this into a BDSM discussion, as I was telling my wife, Morgan Fairchild.........

(edited to change roll/role. I did it again.)

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]

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a lot of women tend to come to it at a later age in life, either through being directly introduced to it, or through a desire for experimentation. I've heard lots of people say they never would imagine that it would be something they'd be interested in, but once they tried it they're hooked!

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I suppose it depends on the range of activity that's considered mainstream. A broad spectrum of bondage and domination fantasy is probably quite common, and the person who's never indulged in the occasional rape/submission/domination fantasy is maybe the exception. More edgy, hardcore sado-masochism and fetishism I think requires a particular proclivity, though whether it's a natural tendency or something developed through an experience like, say, corporal punishment or rape, I couldn't say. A combination of factors perhaps.

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More edgy, hardcore sado-masochism and fetishism I think requires a particular proclivity, though whether it's a natural tendency or something developed through an experience like, say, corporal punishment or rape, I couldn't say. A combination of factors perhaps.

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I would definitely agree with you here. When you talk to the more hardcore members of the scene, the common thread is an attraction and fascination with these activities from an early age. Yet for every person who can point back to childhood corporate punishment as the catylyst for their desires, you'll find another who's parents never physically disciplined them at all.

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I suppose it depends on the range of activity that's considered mainstream.

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In one forum, someone asked what defines a sub/dom or BDSM relationship, and I was kind of surprised by the answer from one person.

According to one woman, she said everyone, at one time or another, has engaged in this kind of activity. It's not all ropes whips and ball gags; she included a fundamentalist Christian marriage as a dom/sub relationship, along with so called "vanilla" people who may, for example, just lock fingers in the missionary position and lightly wrestle with each other while making love.

There are men and women who need to be dominant or submissive "24/7" and others who just like it to be part of their bedroom play, and separate from their non-sexual part of their relationship.

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Yet for every person who can point back to childhood corporate punishment as the catylyst for their desires, you'll find another who's parents never physically disciplined them at all.

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That's what I found, in talking to various people. I do know of women who are submissive, who have come through a childhood of physical and sexual abuse, and I also know of women who have no such background, are employed in decisive, demanding jobs that are submissive.

Doms are less communicative, in my experience. I think there is a reticence on their part. I think it's due to two reasons: One: there is always the pall of criminality ascribed by some to being dominant; and, Two: for many the underlying reason for many dom's attraction is actually due to insecurities concerning women and sex. Niether being comfortable topics for men in particular.

In fact, in all my spellunking on the net on various fetishes etc., my armchair psychology has me thinking that male insecurity about women has much to do with almost everything. Men are increadibly fragile, I think.

Female doms tend to be more communicative, but man, you gotta watch what you say.

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Most gay men I've spoken to in this scene view it as an intrinsic part of their sexuality, closely intertwined with their homosexuality. Not even a lifestyle choice really.

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I think that's true of heterosexuals too. I think one is born with the proclativity for BDSM, or at least dom/sub tendancies. I can't help but conjecture that it may be part of evolutionary psychology. We can often see in nature sexuality that looks like rape, and often there is violence associated with the exchange of genetic information. I've even seen male sparrows in my back yard give the female a nasty peck on the back of the head upon completion of some couplings.

Biologists explain this by saying that some females of some species will resist as a physical test of the males physical condition. There's a certain parsimony to that hypothesis.

It's usually at this point where feminists go absolutely berserk, because they believe that this is used to "justify" things like date rape, or the classically stupid "no means yes" scenario.

I suspect that some or many of our behaviors, sexual and otherwise, may be echoes of previous conditions that no longer exist. Trying to understand them-- or maybe even enjoy them in the appropriate conditions-- is not the same as giving licence or excuse for those who may choose to excersize these proclativities inappropriately.

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perhaps if a kid lived in a bubble, and was fed nothing but movies with sexual violence, and nothing but images of women in the role of victim, perhaps this would have an impact. But, that's not what happens.

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Sure it does. Have you ever picked up a Manga comic? These are what Jappanese youth read, they are picked up at any local Japanese 7-11, Lawson or Circle-k. Contents: Rape, Demonic rape. Underage rape, Sword fights, Alien rape, Virgin rape...ad nauseum.
We're talking about comic books for 7 - 17 year olds here. I won't even get into describing Jappanese TV or billboard ads. Can you say ubiquitous bikini girl? Radio, movies, packaging - no media is uneffected by this trend.

Sorry for the ranting, but you see, I had to leave that country after a year because all of the twisted sexism was starting to seep into my head. MY head. I've been called a 'liberated male' by many of my female friends (plus I'm as jaded and sceptical as all hell). The all-pervasive nature of the culture still snuck in between the perceptual screens and f*cked me up. It took quite some time to de-program myself into being able to see females as people again, not just a life support system for breasts. My current girlfriend seems person enough for me to feel mostly exorcised.
I feel sick when I think of people growing up in cultures like that, the boys and the girls, but mostly the young women.

Many parts of Canada are the same. When I hear guys talking about going to 'fresh meat mondays' down at their local peelers, I get the same angry/sick feeling. It's been two years since I left Japan.

Yes, Rebbeca, men certainly are fragile. After all, we're people too.

ed to clear away some of the typos, I'm sure I missed a few!
[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: sherpafish ]

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: sherpafish ]

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When you talk to the more hardcore members of the scene, the common thread is an attraction and fascination with these activities from an early age. Yet for every person who can point back to childhood corporate punishment as the catylyst for their desires, you'llfind another who's parents never physically disciplined them at all.

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I suspect that some or many of our behaviors, sexual and otherwise, may be echoes of previous conditions that no longer exist.

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Yes, Rebbeca, men certainly are fragile. After all, we're people too

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And, the Japanese fascination with young girls is disturbing, to me.

But, I think if you are right that it has some power, or influence, it has it because there is much "real world" reinforcement of women still being second class citizens in that society.

I think we'd disagree, but it comes down to a chicken and egg argument at the very end.

[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]