quote:

---

Originally posted by Digiteyes:
For standing up for women's rights
http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/310365

---

quote:

---

You do realize that some women dont agree with Holloway and feel that their right to debate was taken away??

---

Boo hoo! Though it does have a certain symmetry, they want to take away another's rights, now they know what that feels like. Even if they are only experiencing a delusion cause for people who aren't being allowed to speak they never shut the fuck up.

quote:

---

She said the executive supports Charter-protected freedom of expression, but felt it had a responsibility to protect students from speech it viewed as discrimination or harassment on its student-funded space. "Just like we would not sanction the use of student space to challenge whether black students should be able to attend university, or whether homosexuality should be illegal, we would not sanction this particular debate over whether or not women should be able to have a choice concerning their own bodies."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ghislaine:

You do realize that some women dont agree with Holloway and feel that their right to debate was taken away??

---

Kelly Holloway spoke admirably and on point. We don't need to revisit the days where segregation of PoC was acceptable or denying LGBT rights. Nor do we need to revisit the days where women were denied their right to control their bodies.

Last year, I supported the Mixed Member Proportional voting system in the referendum in Ontario. I will be supporting the Single Transferable Vote system in BC's referendum next year. Why? I want my opponents to be represented in our legislatures. Each of us needs a voice in society. I may not like what my opponents have to say; they may not like what I have to say. Someday, I may need my opponents to become my supporters. Someday, we may need to become political friends due to external circumstances threatening the well-being of our democracy.

One thing I enjoyed about going to university was getting away from my loving parents. I became an adult by having to learn how to live without the direct protection of my parents. I had to learn to work with others without my parents' assistance.

I wonder how many children go to the York University student centre. How many of them carry words? How many carry swords?

[ 11 March 2008: Message edited by: Skinny Dipper ]

no, it would just be wrong.
Some groups abuse our society's freedom and easy tolerance for so much.
Religious groups are abusing our good will and are disingenuous when they claim "free" speach about women.
People often take far too many liberties when discussing women---if one substitutes any other group's rights, in the place of women's reproductive rights, the discussion won't happen---we would all understand how wrong the debate about women's ownership of their bodies always is.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Skinny Dipper:
I would rather have free speech than free swords. What do I mean? If we deny people the right to speak freely, even on topics on which we may not agree, they may seek other ways to spread their message. One way is the figurative sword.

---

quote:

---

Last year, I supported the Mixed Member Proportional voting system in the referendum in Ontario. I may not like what my opponents have to say; they may not like what I have to say. Someday, I may need my opponents to become my supporters. Someday, we may need to become political friends due to external circumstances threatening the well-being of our democracy.

---

quote:

---

morningstar: should we perhaps have feminism 101 as a mandatory subject from preschool to old age?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
It's funny how you assume you can speak for all women and that you even have the right to speak for all women when clearly not all women agree with you - but then their voices don't matter - right?

---

It's funny how you, as a man, feel you have the right to come into the feminist forum, and chastize a woman by saying, wrongly, that she is assuming to speak for all women!

quote:

---

It's funny how you assume you can speak for all women and that you even have the right to speak for all women when clearly not all women agree with you - but then their voices don't matter - right?

---

Their voices when applied to my rights don't matter to anyone but themselves. They are still free to have as many children as they wish. Being women doesn't mean they get to tell me what to do with my body anymore than a man does. Their gender isn't a pass to violate anothe's human rights.

And we know a white supremacist group would get far having discussions about equality on a campus either. But they sure can talk all the crazy shit they want on private.

The bottomline is they aren't being arrested by the Government for their speech they can say what they want but not where ever they want, not on another person's property. And as a private citzen people have the right to tell them to shut the fuck up, free speech allows for that.

I just slightly disagree with yr interptation of this issue.

You say there can be no debate because there is nothing to debate. This is based on yr belief that a fetus is a part of a woman's body. This not a scientific fact, it just a belief that you and others share. Other people including many women disagree.

one example - on an ultrasound, after a certain point a male fetus's penis can be seen - is it the woman's penis, if not than who's is it?

If others believe that the fetus is a seperate being than clearly there is an opening for debate.

Shutting down the debate seems to be out of fear of any opposing views or ideas being heard and swaying or gaining traction among the population.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
I understand what you are saying,

---

quote:

---

and I'm not anti - abortion so this is not personal.

---

quote:

---

I just slightly disagree with yr interptation of this issue.

---

quote:

---

You say there can be no debate because there is nothing to debate.

---

quote:

---

This is based on yr belief that a fetus is a part of a woman's body. This not a scientific fact, it just a belief that you and others share.

---

quote:

---

Other people including many women disagree.

---

quote:

---

one example - on an ultrasound, after a certain point a male fetus's penis can be seen - is it the woman's penis, if not than who's is it?

---

quote:

---

If others believe that the fetus is a seperate being than clearly there is an opening for debate.

---

quote:

---

Shutting down the debate seems to be out of fear of any opposing views or ideas being heard and swaying or gaining traction among the population.

---

quote:

---

This tactic does not bode well for the future as this issue not likely to go away any time soon especially with scientific and technological progress.

---

[ 12 March 2008: Message edited by: remind ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
wow, you say BS and that's that? - so even if I'm trying to be honest and have decent conversation - you're rude and condesending - can I call you a liar then - because I am not nor at anytime been anti-abortion.

Good luck at debating - yr terrible at it.

---

quote:

---

If others believe that the fetus is a seperate being than clearly there is an opening for debate.

Shutting down the debate seems to be out of fear of any opposing views or ideas being heard and swaying or gaining traction among the population.

---

You can spin it that way but in the end what difference does it make if there is a penis or not if it means we force someone to be pregnant against their will? We don't force people to donate kidneys or even blood but the way this debate goes is that someone has to have a child they don't want to have. Can you imagine? I can't imagine being forced onto that I'd be desolate. It'd be torture. Morally smug torture. Punishment in fact I guess for having sex for fun and not for procreation!

The opposite of choice in this debate is force.

We don't let people force religon on others, morality, or forms of dress, we don't allow genital mutilation or force people to be celibate but we should open up debate on forced pregnancy?

What's to discuss really?

Some people want laws so they can force people to do something against their will with their body and that is be pregnant. Uh how dare they springs to mind. You can take your accusation of fear and stick it. I am outraged that people feel that they can discuss my body as if they have a right to. They don't. They don't have any ownership over my body nor can they force me to use it to give life.

[ 12 March 2008: Message edited by: Scout ]

Just to add - just because someone is speaking about something or taking a pro/con postion on a debate doesn't mean it reflects that person's personal views on the subject.

This sort of militancy doesn't make for very interesting conversation, let alone killing any possibility of an open, honest, intellectually challenging and respectful debate.

C'mon, what's the harm, it's just intellectual titillation, eh?

Then let's debate the reintroduction of capital punishment; the abolition of the right to refuse unsafe work; and wait, I've got it:

BE IT RESOLVED that women can no longer be trusted with the right to vote!

quote:

---

I won't bother trying to discuss this further as it's not something yr really open to talking about.

---

That’s fantastic news! Cause I really don’t want to talk about why someone feel they can force me to be pregnant, for nine months against my will, I don’t like to have highbrow discussions about the positives of slavery either, just doesn’t feel right. I just don’t feel clean afterwards.

quote:

---

Just to add - just because someone is speaking about something or taking a pro/con postion on a debate doesn't mean it reflects that person's personal views on the subject.

---

Oh! I had no idea! Bless your little heart for sharing that with me. I learn something new every day on babble. Is that like the Devil’s Advocate or something? Isn’t that sweet of you to help us out with our dialog by honing our skills against the arguments that our would-be oppressors might come up with, they were all news to me and I am sure the other ladies in thread never heard such things before either. You have been a big help. You know we are all pretty new to this fight.

quote:

---

This sort of militancy doesn't make for very interesting conversation, let alone killing any possibility of an open, honest, intellectually challenging and respectful debate.

---

First of all talking about limiting another’s right to self determination is disrespectful and only an idiot would think that the pro-life side has an intellectual side to it so how on earth do I respectfully tell a fucking idiot to steer clear of my uterus? Then again I am sure it is intellectually challenging for pro-lifer to consider that the woman is an individual they can’t control no matter what they believe.