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» babble   » walking the talk   » feminism   » My reaction yesterday, re: men and feminism

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Author Topic: My reaction yesterday, re: men and feminism
audra trower williams
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posted 17 November 2004 03:35 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hi there! Lots of people were upset by the things I said, and the way I said them, here.

I was posting about it on my blog, and someone asked me why I was so upset by all the men. This was my answer:

"Because they don't fucking listen, and they can't fucking be told that. It drives me mental. They just want to blather on and pontificate and pat themselves on the back for being so progressive, but when any of the women on the board are like "can you please let the women talk about this for a while?" they FREAK OUT and get insanely hostile. I think it's really telling. It's like men who are pissed off that they can't go to Take Back The Night. They're all "We want to SUPPORT YOU" and when women are like "How about you let US tell you how to support us?" they lose their shit."

It just reached a boiling point for me yesterday, so I finally said something. And it went over pretty well with the women, and not really so well at all with the men. I guess that's to be expected.

Anyway, this is how I'm feeling.


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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Babbler # 1448

posted 17 November 2004 03:50 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, with the women who responded, anyway.

I have really mixed feelings about this.

On the one hand, I understand where you are coming from.

On the other hand, I don't think removing men from the debate is especially constructive. They're half the population, half (or more) of the legislators out there, half (or more) of the judges who rule on the legislation.... You get the drift. They're already part of the debate, whether they respectfully shut up or not. I'd rather see men engaged in talking progressively about choice than just leaving it all to us.


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 17 November 2004 03:55 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I of course meant the women, and men, who replied. I wasn't speaking for all the world's men and women.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 17 November 2004 03:58 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I didn't think you were -- more limited to babble. Anyway, matters not. I was just segueing into a response. Clumsily, as usual.
From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 17 November 2004 04:00 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I love the men who support us -- I mean, I really do -- how often have you seen me drool over them all, the sweethearts ... *sincere winky*

Reflect on this, though: How many times a day does one read profane outbursts on this board? Like, dozens, yes? And if we are being rigorously honest, if we really put a little rigour in our honesty, we would have to admit that most of those outbursts are coming from -- you should excuse the expression -- men.

But then audra finally got fed up and gave the world the finger. And what happened?

Omigosh, the world came to an end. All those men who are normally so free and easy about telling one another to f* off got all quiet and serious and concerned.

And, I mean, we know why, don't we. She's a ... WOMAN! And she ... reacted! With anger!

The sky is falling the sky is falling! Do you think she's pregnant? Maybe it's PMS? Can she take the pressure?

I love men, but sometimes I think that they are STOO-PID.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 17 November 2004 04:00 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To be clear, I'm not saying men should never be allowed to enter into the debate. It's just been vexing lately, especially when it turns into men telling the women how they can be better feminist activists. I also think men need to be able to handle being told to please just listen sometimes, and many men on babble have never been very good at hearing that. Even when it is presented far more politely than I did

[ 17 November 2004: Message edited by: audra trower williams ]


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 17 November 2004 04:05 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ha! Yes. Skdadl said it better than I did. And we had a simultaneous posting. Mrowr!

p.s. I'm not pregnant.


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 17 November 2004 04:07 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Because they don't fucking listen

Really? Who said this:
quote:
*LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA LA*

To be fair, I got my back up and responded poorly.

quote:
The pro-life men are only marginally more annoying than the pro-choice ones, quite often.

That is a stereotype and an unfair one. I don't know what men you have encountered but none of them has been me.

I have been on this board a long, long time and I would defy you to find a single example of where I lectured or advised women on how to win the issue or how to carry out the battle. If anything, I have always been willing to follow the lead of those who have the most at stake or just stay out of it altogether.

If you are unwilling to differentiate between friends and enemies, than so be it. But don't expect friends when you have enemies.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 17 November 2004 04:08 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, but you know, audra -- all us women are always in danger of exploding all over the place in one messy way or another -- pregnant, bleeding, crying, wow. Men live in terror of that.

So you just stop scaring the men, y'hear?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 17 November 2004 04:11 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A few years ago there was a radio phone-in show with a guest who was talking about women and finances; as far as I recall, the idea was for women to call in and ask for advice. While the show was still on, the host, an intelligent man, complained that the phone lines were getting tied up by men who wanted to advise women on how to handle their money.

I'm not sure if this is learned behaviour or if they are born that way.

[Edited because now I remember that this was something I read about in Joanne Yaccato's book Balancing Act; I think I may have heard a program with similar results; anyway the point remains the same.]

[ 17 November 2004: Message edited by: Contrarian ]


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 17 November 2004 04:11 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wingy, you are perfect. I mean, you are; I mean that; and you know that I mean that. *heart*

But there is this one teensy thing I'd like you to reflect on:

How many times have you said, to someone/anyone on babble, a much stronger equivalent of "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA"?

And how many times has audra ever said things like that?

[ 17 November 2004: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 17 November 2004 04:15 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And how many times has audra ever said things like that?

To me, that would be the first.

And I have already admitted I reacted poorly to it.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 17 November 2004 04:17 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While I should probably not chuck any rocks at this bees nest, I have to say that my only concern is that it sets abortion (or other "women's" issues) up as a special case or a singularity.

If men can't (or shouldn't) wade into abortion debates head on, why can (or should) women wade into father's rights debates? Why can or should atheists or Christians wade into the debate over Sharia law? We don't seem to draw boundary lines in those debates, so why would we in this one?

Also, and I'm sorry to mention this, but I found it very odd that in one post Audra said "Look, I'm not asking you to shut the fuck up as a MODERATOR", but then 53 minutes later, locked the thread, as a moderator, saying "I'm going to close this before I explode with rage."


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 17 November 2004 04:24 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Audra,

First let me say I do not think you needed to explain your reaction yesterday. Chalk that one up to being a good person. But more importantly i think that the points raised are actually correct.

I can only speak for myself here as a married man who gets the last 2 words in any argument "Yes dear" But maybe it is time that more of us shut up and listen before always trying to ride in on our white horses and save the day.


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sara Mayo
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posted 17 November 2004 04:39 PM      Profile for Sara Mayo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For me the problem wasn't with what you said Audra (I agreed with most of it), but rather your closing of the thread when you said it. It was the first time I saw you close a thread simply because you didn't like the discussion. But maybe that's not why you closed it, it just wasn't very clear. Especially as the thread was in the NDP forum, not in the feminism forum, where I could completely agree with closing it (since the original topic was not "from a feminist point of view").

[ 17 November 2004: Message edited by: Sara Mayo ]


From: "Highways are monuments to inequality" - Enrique Penalosa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Klingon
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posted 17 November 2004 04:50 PM      Profile for Klingon        Edit/Delete Post
P’Tachk! Holy Moly. The Rabble finally shows its ugly side--and from a moderator too boot.

I swung by the site just a few minutes ago on a break and tripped over this strange sounding thread. I wasn't what she was referring to, but I suspected that it had something to do with the whole abortion debate and the thread I started called the The Pro-Life Paradox.

Later, some other thread apparently got started on this by someone else about abortion supposedly being a problem for the NDP in not getting the pro-life vote. I only just read a few posts from that thread just now. I see both threads have been closed down by ATW claiming she didn't like them. And here's apparently why:

quote:
I want men to fucking SHUT UP ABOUT ABORTION.

That's basically it. No argument. No reasoning. No enlightenment. No useful information or perspective. Just the usual bigotry, Lack of respect, Power-tipping and resentment I have witnessed from various cult feminist tendencies in the past. The same garbage I experienced with the corporate-brown-nosing hate-mongering dirt bags that run the Freak Dominion. I expect it from there. Not from Here.

Got news for you ATW. I posted the Pro-Life Paradox thing out of sincerity. As someone who has been through a couple crisis situations with friends dealing with this matter, and following the politics around it, I was trying to contribute an additional perspective to a seemingly frustrating yet never-ending discussion on this site.

I will continue to do this as I see fit (lest you push a button booting me from the site), as I'm sure others, both male and female, will do (you can boot them too). That's called freedom of speech, and that is a core value of any democratic/public interest cause, as it is supposed to be for the Rabble.

If as a moderator of a supposed "progressive" (whatever that really means) site, this offends your sweeping cult feminist generalizations of the males of the species, then maybe you should find some other line of work.

naDevvo' yIghoS The Klingon


From: Kronos, but in BC Observing Political Tretchery | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 17 November 2004 04:59 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Klingon, no -- you are misreading the situation with the thread you started.

Your thread was closed because it got too long. No doubt audra was exasperated when she got there, but that wasn't what was getting to her.

Well -- the fact that we have been innundated with abortion threads in the last couple of weeks has something to do with the exasperation.

But please don't take this personally. That would be an error.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 17 November 2004 05:03 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I couldn't even begin to count the number of times I've had a bit of a boil over -- and often over nothing.

When I have times of frustration over what I see here, I have the ability to turn away for as long as I wish. Audra doesn't have that resort in the same way.

Audra, you're all right with me.


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 17 November 2004 05:11 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
The closing of the thread, as far as I'm concerned, was the problem.

And Klingon, don't take it personally. I don't think your thread had anything to do with it...but of course, all progressive men got a taste of it yesterday, so what do I know?


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 17 November 2004 05:19 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree with Sara Mayo's and Hinterland's points regarding the closing of the thread.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 17 November 2004 05:43 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Um, excuse me but what's with this "feminist cult" bullshit, Klingon? If you don't agree with Audra, hey, that's great, but you can go fuck yourself with your feminist-bashing.

Hear that? GO FUCK YOURSELF if you're going to trash feminism like a right-wing, anti-feminist radio talkshow swine. Sorry if I didn't express that in quite a ladylike enough way, but when I see people who are supposedly supposed to be on OUR side, using terms straight from the Rush Limbaugh playbook, it fucking well makes me see RED.

And just so you know, I actually didn't completely agree with Audra on this one. I didn't have a problem with what WingNut wrote in that other thread, for example. The first post in the thread was idiotic, but I didn't see the pro-choice men telling pro-choice women how to lead the struggle. I saw an anti-choice man telling pro-choice women to stop pushing their issue in the NDP, and pro-choice men telling him to get stuffed. And I appreciated it.

But if you are a feminist, or supportive of feminists, you shouldn't be putting other sincere feminists down with right-wing rhetoric even if they do something you don't like or don't agree with. You may have noticed that I didn't start going on about how Audra's some feminist castrating bitch now because I disagreed with her. I mean, why didn't you just call her a feminazi and have done with it?

God that pisses me off.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 17 November 2004 05:47 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah, Michelle? Klingon misread. Klingon didn't know the whole story. And Klingon has personal reasons for taking the bit he saw personally.

In his way, he just did something very like what audra did yesterday.

So let's cut him some slack.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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Babbler # 6477

posted 17 November 2004 05:52 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Well, but you know, audra -- all us women are always in danger of exploding all over the place in one messy way or another -- pregnant, bleeding, crying, wow. Men live in terror of that.

So you just stop scaring the men, y'hear?


On the local radio phone in a little while ago the male guest was talking about mid-life for men and divorce, etc [I only half listened]; at one point he said men are afraid of women; specifically of them getting emotional; he had been but is not now. So the message gets through to men who are able to listen.


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 17 November 2004 05:57 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
So let's cut him some slack.

No. Screw that. He was quoting from the thread from yesterday, not his thread, when he started going on about how Audra's now a tool of the feminist cult conspiracy theory he's got happening inside his head.

He gets no slack from me until he fucking well apologizes to feminists for trashing them with his right-wing Jerry Falwell feminist-bashing shit.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 17 November 2004 05:57 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Budd Campbell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7019

posted 17 November 2004 05:59 PM      Profile for Budd Campbell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
If you don't agree with Audra, hey, that's great, but you can go fuck yourself with your feminist-bashing.

Hear that? GO FUCK YOURSELF if you're going to trash feminism ... Sorry if I didn't express that in quite a ladylike enough way, but ...



On a point of order, what happens to other posters who express themselves this way?


From: Kerrisdale-Point Grey, Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 17 November 2004 06:01 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ok: I screamed too soon.

Note to self: things can always get worse.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 17 November 2004 06:05 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Budd Campbell:


On a point of order, what happens to other posters who express themselves this way?


Not much. I've done it dozens of times, I wince to admit. If blow-ups were a banning offence, there wouldn't be a poster on the internet but pogge and sara.

From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 17 November 2004 06:05 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well it makes a nice change from the usual piling ontop of hailey and trashing her I guess

Nothing is ever so bad it cant get worse Skdadl but HOPEFULLY people can calm down before things go too far the banning, floucing, flames really start up

It just takes a "sorry i over reacted" as wingnut graciously said


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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Babbler # 4014

posted 17 November 2004 06:07 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
And it's just about to get worse...

quote:
He gets no slack from me until he fucking well apologizes to feminists for trashing them with his right-wing Jerry Falwell feminist-bashing shit.

Holy fucking Christ. This...THIS is the battle you choose? While the rest of us endure troll after troll, this is the one that pisses you off?

Fuck!


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 17 November 2004 06:09 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
skdadl, I'll join you in that primal scream just about now.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 17 November 2004 06:09 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hinterland, did you write that with a straight face?

Do you mean that post?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 17 November 2004 06:13 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Not really. But since we're all screaming...
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 17 November 2004 06:14 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Well, I wasn’t going to post on this again, but— shaddup!! I really wasn’t!!. HowEVER....

I am moved to because of a thread from ‘waaaaaaaaaaay back, when, in a fit of frustration, I posted a comment to the effect that “straight people just don’t get it. They’ll NEVER get it, any more than I can put myself into the shoes of a young black or aboriginal person, and talk about how racism feels to me. That’s not my fault, it’s just a side-effect of the fact that I’m caucasian. And it’s not the fault of straight people either— they’re just not gay, and even the most understanding of them will never fully understand how homophobia makes us feel. They can’t.”

Just as Audra expressed her frustration on her blog, I have expressed frustration to gay friends about how straight people “don’t get it”, how they sometimes can’t grasp why I sometimes lash out at “organized religion” and other self-appointed arbiters of “morals”— even if I later admit that I over-reacted, and my anger was really due to the seemingly never-ending parade off calumny, lies, hatred and abuse heaped upon the LGBT community — including many people I know and who are personal friends. Sometimes, I’ve read about yet another gruesome murder of a gay person, and my nerves are a little frayed already. Most recently, it was when a member of my own family “disowned me” after I told them I am gay. I realize it isn’t fair of me to take out my anger and my hurt on others, but sometimes it breaks through.... And you don’t know how many times I have just pushed away the keyboard and gone for a walk to calm down. Or how hard it is to calm down, sometimes....

But when I did post that message awhile back, about how I sometimes become incredibly frustrated with straights — ALL straights — you know who posted shortly after? Michelle. Yeah, Michelle, who has consistently been one of the strongest advocates on this board for SSM and equal rights for LGBT people. And y’know what she said? Not, “oh, surely you don’t mean ME!!!” Not “But I support you people!!” Not one of a dozen or more fair, and truthful, counterpoints she COULD have made. Nope.

She said “I agree. I understand.” And she left it at that.

She knew I was not saying that she shouldn’t have a say in the debate, or that her support was not appreciated and valued very, very much. But she DID know that I was venting my frustration, my anger and my resentment, and that at that particular time I wasn’t **interested** in hearing “there, there” type of comments.

Gay men have a lot of sympathy and understanding for many “women’s issues” and concerns. Like them, we have issues of violence and discrimination to face. Are these issues and concerns interchangeable? No, of course not, that’s stupid. But it does enable us to see their perspective a lot more readily than a straight guy *ever* could. But I am fully aware that I “don’t get it”, especially when it comes to topics like reproductive rights. No matter how hard I try, and how sympathetic and understanding I am, I don’t, and I never will “get it”.

So while I can understand Audra’s frustration and anger, I can only share it to a certain degree. Because I’m a man, I always will be, and I will NEVER be able to fully comprehend where Audra is coming from. The best thing I can do when Audra writes that she wants men to “shut the fuck UP about abortion” is take my cue from Michelle, and say “I agree. I understand.”

And considering the countless hours Audra puts in on this board, for what simply has to be inadequate pay, and considering the endless bitching, squabbling and temper tantrums she has to moderate (and almost always with a calm, well-mannered demeanor), I’d say she’s entitled to blow a fucking gasket once in a long, long, long while.

C’mon guys. Cut the woman some slack and get off her back.

And Michelle... I never said it at the time, but thanks for teaching me a valuable lesson about knowing when to just shut the fuck up and listen.. To borrow a trick from skdadl.... *heart*


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 17 November 2004 06:15 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
If blow-ups were a banning offence, there wouldn't be a poster on the internet but pogge and sara.

I've obviously been far too easy on you people.

(Just trying to lighten the mood. It's not working, is it?)


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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Babbler # 4881

posted 17 November 2004 06:17 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not really, pogge, but thanx for the effort.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6477

posted 17 November 2004 06:20 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Very well said, Hephaestion.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
thwap
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5062

posted 17 November 2004 06:23 PM      Profile for thwap        Edit/Delete Post
Hey Audra and Heph,

I'm with you. I know EXACTLY how you feel.


(did that come off as funny??)


please don't kill me.


From: Hamilton | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Budd Campbell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7019

posted 17 November 2004 06:36 PM      Profile for Budd Campbell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Not much. I've done it dozens of times, I wince to admit. If blow-ups were a banning offence, there wouldn't be a poster on the internet but pogge and sara.

OKay, ... I'll keep it mind the next time someone swears at me, that I am allowed to dish it out if I am expected to take it.


From: Kerrisdale-Point Grey, Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Debra
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 117

posted 17 November 2004 06:40 PM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Budd Campbell:

OKay, ... I'll keep it mind the next time someone swears at me, that I am allowed to dish it out if I am expected to take it.


Thanks for that startlingly insightful contribution to the thread.


From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 17 November 2004 06:42 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
OKay, ... I'll keep it mind the next time someone swears at me, that I am allowed to dish it out if I am expected to take it.

Whoever told you otherwise, Budd? The Junior League of Kerrisdale-Point Grey?


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 17 November 2004 06:44 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I am moved to because of a thread from 'waaaaaaaaaaay back, when, in a fit of frustration, I posted a comment to the effect that "straight people just don't get it. They'll NEVER get it,

Do you need me to get it?

I don't have to get it. All I offer is my support for your struggle for full and equal rights. That's all.

Are you going to tell me to "shut the fuck up" for that? Are you going to tell me I am only marginally better than the yahoos who would bash you just for who you choose to be with?

If so, warn me now.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 17 November 2004 07:04 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
Holy fucking Christ. This...THIS is the battle you choose? While the rest of us endure troll after troll, this is the one that pisses you off?

Fuck!


Funny you should mention that. On the way home tonight (teeth clenched on the subway) I got thinking about what a bitch of a mood I've been in lately and how easily I've been blowing up, mostly due to the darkening political climate. It's starting to get to me, I think. I've been wondering if maybe Budd had a point, that I really shouldn't have gone off the deep end like that.

I can think of three or four times offhand, in the last few days, where I've lost my temper. So I'm not sure what you mean when you say that I've only chosen this battle while the rest of you have been enduring trolls. Does this imply that I've somehow not risen to the occasion lately otherwise and helped you with the holy babble battle? Seems to me that so far I've ripped into weirdmantis and Dagmar, and probably Budd Campbell as well over the last little while. In fact, I've been wondering if maybe I'm not going off the deep end a little too often lately.

But if you think I haven't had any battles except this one lately, then I guess my perception is mistaken. I guess I should probably find that reassuring!

Anyhow, I can offer an explanation. When obvious right-wing trolls come along and pull their anti-feminist, homophobic, or racist baiting routine, it's no more than I expect from them. But when someone who is supposed to be progressive starts going off on a rant about how a woman (and let's face it, a real ally and friend on this board, even when we're disagreeing) is part of some feminist ballbusting secret cabal, that enrages me more than ten right-wing trolls put together. Because he should know better. It's not just not progressive. It's a betrayal.

Edited to say: I just read Hephaestion's post now. Thanks. I appreciate that.

[ 17 November 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
arborman
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4372

posted 17 November 2004 07:04 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Eep!

Backs slowly out of the thread, looking from side to side.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 17 November 2004 07:11 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle:

I'm not going to say you're wrong about Klingon's over-the-topness. When I saw the bit about "cultishness" my jaw just dropped.

But I think the bit about the darkening times you mentioned applies to all of us equally, including Klingon. We lash out because we are afraid, and sometimes we say things we don't mean and sometimes we say things that we mean way too much.

We gotta cut each other some slack.

Klingon, buddy, I'm begging you to come back in here and face up to what you said. I am firmly against what Audra said and did, but I understand where she was coming from when she said and did it. Same goes for you. Now is the time to clarify your remarks, and maybe make a retraction or two.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sharon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4090

posted 17 November 2004 07:13 PM      Profile for Sharon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I haven't seen anyone say this yet so allow me: I am a feminist of a vintage that has fought these battles so many times that it isn't even funny. I am often asked by younger feminists if I get tired. Oh yes, say I! Of course, we all get tired.

But I don't think any feminist gets tired of taking on new feminist challenges and working together (even with progressive men) and breaking new ground -- as so many are doing every day.

I do think, however, that when we realize that for every step we take forward, someone is trying to drag us two steps back, we get impatient. When we know how much work and time and dedication has been spent to get us to the point we are now -- and then we suddenly realize that this battle is, apparently, always going to come back and beat us over the head, we are entitled to get frustrated.

Our frustration, impatience and anger often happen in a less public way -- maybe at a family dinner or talking to parents in a schoolyard or dealing with neighbours.

But it happens, take my word -- and maybe those who are offended by righteous anger need to spend a little time considering the source and feel appreciative of the opportunity to have a learning experience.


From: Halifax, Nova Scotia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Klingon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4625

posted 17 November 2004 07:21 PM      Profile for Klingon        Edit/Delete Post
P’Tachk! This is starting to sound like one of those Canadian University Press three-hour-long circular-argument meetings I remember (but don't miss) from many years ago (there was a lot of cult type thinking there too).

quote:
Um, excuse me but what's with this "feminist cult" bullshit, Klingon? If you don't agree with Audra, hey, that's great, but you can go fuck yourself with your feminist-bashing.

Get off your arrogance horse Michelle. I can tell from your posts generally here that you are well educated and pretty plugged into the political trends in this country. You know damn well what I was referring to when I dissed "cult feminism."

The comments by Audra and others who hold those views don't exist in a vacuum. They are things I have heard from various "affinity groups," tightly controlled "steering committees," and certain types of "women's groups" in the past. If you half the tuned-in feminist you claim to be, then you have heard them too.

Maybe you would have been less twisted about this if I had just said "cultism" or "cult thinking" or whatever. But since the comments were clearly intentionally made from a specific standpoint, in this case a supposedly feminist one, I got a little specific in my response. And I never meant to imply that this is unique to feminism, and I think you know that.

Cults or cult-like thinking--be it feminist, Stalinist, Zionist, "Deep" ecologist, Christian, Islamic, etc. where there seems to be a lot of cultism, seem to possess the common traits like those express here recently:

1. The whole world is out to get us

2. This is our issue and you have no right to comment on it unless you take our position and "take the leadership from us"

3. It's all about us vs the rest of you--you are part of a conspiracy or oppressive group that oppresses all of us

4. Because you aren't exactly like us, you are party our oppression and misfortune, and you must correct yourself in our eyes to our satisfaction

5. If you disagree, criticize or take issue with anything we say or do, you are promoting or perpetuating the oppression of the people we (claim--stress claim) to represent.

This type of sick-ass mentality is present in just about every cause or sector in society. I have, at least in the past seen it be incredibly pervasive in feminist and various ethnic groups, as well as the student movement).

If you have read some of my posts on different topics here, you will know that I strongly support many of the things that many feminist groups support of claim to support. But I have absolutely no time or respect for any of this type of thinking on the part of any groups or issue. I see it too many places and it pisses me off--and no I won't apologize for dumping on this thinking, because it is what has persecuted family members in other countries and has caused me more than enough aggravation and wasted time over the years.

If you can stomach it, go check out the Freak Dominion site, and you will find that this type of thinking is very present there--a site largely dominated by Jerry Falwell and right-wing radio talk show types. That's why when I see alleged "progressives" adopt these lines of thinking, it pisses me off--and I won't conceal that anger to keep up some sort of politically correct image.

quote:
I mean, why didn't you just call her a feminazi and have done with it?

I thought that's what I sort of did. What's the difference between a "cult feminist" and a "feminazi?" Nazi groups are perfect examples of the cultist thinking I hate so much: full of factless conspiracy theories, hating and mis-trusting anyone who isn't just like them, looking for enemies, thinking the whole world owes them something--kind of like Corporate Canada and other privileged mal-contents.

I hope this post isn't too long. But I'm responding to your rant, Michelle, because I take your posts seriously enough to do so, otherwise I would bother.

But if you hold the above-mentioned views and cult thinking, you won't care what I say anyway. So I won't tell you to go fuck yourself. People who share cultist thinking are already fucked up enough as it is.

I don’t know where this thread is going, or I’ll get banned, or what others here will say or do. But for today the Rabble doesn’t seem as great of a place.


From: Kronos, but in BC Observing Political Tretchery | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 17 November 2004 07:22 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
But I think the bit about the darkening times you mentioned applies to all of us equally, including Klingon. We lash out because we are afraid, and sometimes we say things we don't mean and sometimes we say things that we mean way too much.

We gotta cut each other some slack.


You're right. So let me extend the olive branch first. I'm still ticked over the feminist cult thing, but I went overboard. Sorry for the overboardness (a new word I just made up), Klingon.

Actually, I just read Klingon's post now - he posted while I was apologizing. And I now take back that apology like the castrating, cultish feminist bitch that I am.

[ 17 November 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 17 November 2004 07:22 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Anyhow, I can offer an explanation. When obvious right-wing trolls come along and pull their anti-feminist, homophobic, or racist baiting routine, it's no more than I expect from them. But when someone who is supposed to be progressive starts going off on a rant about how a woman (and let's face it, a real ally and friend on this board, even when we're disagreeing) is part of some feminist ballbusting secret cabal, that enrages me more than ten right-wing trolls put together. Because he should know better. It's not just not progressive. It's a betrayal.

It may not be no more than you expect from the trolls, but it still does nothing to advance dialogue, and quite often, halts it in its tracks. Why this assault on dialogue should go unaddressed, while Klingon's one instance of undiplomatic language inccurs your wrath, strikes me as unfair. And I'm speaking to you, Michelle, as a moderator, not the person who I think is profoundly fair and my fake wife, to boot.

I would suggest that Klingon was not so much engaging the sexist argument that feminists are part of some ball-busting cabal, as pointing out that women can abuse power as much as men do. And (and this is the last post I'm making in this thread) this is what Audra did. Closed the thread prematurely because she could, and for reasons that were entirely her own. This is an abuse of power.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 17 November 2004 07:23 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Y'know what really makes me collapse to my knees, Sharon?

It's all the posts we've seen this late summer, early fall, repeating again and again the same old blah-blah-blah about man-hating feminists (with the predictable name-dropping: Dworkin, MacKinnon -- the trolls only know two or three names, and those from thirty years ago) -- and there has been a lot of that garbage, much of it dying on the vine because most of us just give up and stop posting to the forum. And then there's been the other stuff, the passive aggression, and I won't go there right now because I'm not supposed to name names ...

But again and again, the sneer is that feminists are man-haters. Ugly, bitter, don't listen to anyone who is not a "like-minded woman" ... and man-haters.

And after fifty-nine years of loving and caring for men, it just slays me, y'know? It really does.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 17 November 2004 07:30 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Budd Campbell:

OKay, ... I'll keep it mind the next time someone swears at me, that I am allowed to dish it out if I am expected to take it.


You have been doing nothing BUT dishing it out. When it comes to gay issues you really and truly don't get it. And when it comes to dealing with gay people on other issues, you descend into rather grotesque homophobia directed at Heph., So if you don't want to be on the receiving end of it, as Audra so eloquently put it:

SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Women aren't exactly the only people who're being shat upon from on high on babble in the last couple of weeks. Troll after troll after venemous troll has come on here to "politely" explain to us how we should be tolerant of those who wish to deny us every single right and who applaud vermin like Larry Spencer as a hero.

Women's reproductive rights are be undergoing a threat, but there are millions of gay men and lesbians for whom it would be a miracle just to HAVE some rights to be threatened.

Although I'm a man, I'm bloody well sick of "reasonable, sweet, polite" people coming on here to talk about restrcting abortion. I'm equally sick of people (not one of whom even pretends to be reasonable, sweet or polite) talking about restricting gay rights.

There's something really fucked up if women and queers come to babble and feel as ganged up on as they would in the dark place.

I'm bloody sick of having to explain for the umpteenth time why no, you CAN'T have an exemption from obeying the law of the land because you happen to believe in a disgusting excuse for a religion.

There are things that, by becoming a member here, you are acknowledging that you except, including women's and queers' rights. So why are we spending so much time defending them?


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 17 November 2004 07:31 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Klingon, dammit-all! I'm not going to say that I agreed with Audra, or do. I didn't and I don't. But this second post is just all-consumingly bile-filled. For the love of God, man. Catch your breath and think for a minute.

What Audra said came from somewhere, all right. But can't you look at what people are saying, skdadl, Sharon, Michelle, etc. and step back for a minute? She felt/feels under attack, and who could blame her right now? Certainly not I, when I am watching an otherwise progressive guy go off about feminists in an ugly, ugly fashion.

Yes, there are feminists who are barely recognizable as progressive. Very few, but they exist. Audra isn't one of them. And if you think one thread means everything, one day means everything . . .

I'm just about ready to give up, right now.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Budd Campbell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7019

posted 17 November 2004 07:36 PM      Profile for Budd Campbell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Debra:

Thanks for that startlingly insightful contribution to the thread.


I admit it was an aside, but, if you don't ask, you don't know.


From: Kerrisdale-Point Grey, Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Klingon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4625

posted 17 November 2004 07:42 PM      Profile for Klingon        Edit/Delete Post
K'pla! Michelle is right! Why let this sort of stuff get otherwise good-hearted people into a froth.

I shouldn't have let this whole song and dance get under my "armour," as Magoo would say.

There's no actual term in Klingonaase for "peace" (does that surprise you), but usually an affirmative nod and growl will do.

GRRRRR---RUFF


From: Kronos, but in BC Observing Political Tretchery | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
exiled armadillo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6389

posted 17 November 2004 07:43 PM      Profile for exiled armadillo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Its either that or the trolls finally win.
From: Politicians and diapers should be changed frequently and for the same reason | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 17 November 2004 07:44 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
It may not be no more than you expect from the trolls, but it still does nothing to advance dialogue, and quite often, halts it in its tracks. Why this assault on dialogue should go unaddressed, while Klingon's one instance of undiplomatic language inccurs your wrath, strikes me as unfair. And I'm speaking to you, Michelle, as a moderator, not the person who I think is profoundly fair and my fake wife, to boot.

As a moderator? Of which forums, Hinterland? I have deliberately been stepping back because I don't want to interfer too much in forums that I'm technically not supposed to be moderating. The reason I haven't gone after anyone in a moderating capacity is because I'm not the moderator on most of babble - just the ME and banter forum. And of course, the banter moderation is more of a joke than anything since there isn't really a lot to "moderate" there.

When I did take over for one week, I responded to complaints about trolls. When I receive them now, and it's in a forum I'm not supposed to be moderating, I refer the people to Audra. Not because I don't want to help, but because it's Audra's job, and I think some people were starting to get the mistaken impression that I am responsible for more than I am on babble, or that somehow Audra and I were job sharing or something. And we're not. Basically, I don't want to step on toes and butt in where Audra is perfectly capable of dealing with it herself.

I volunteer my time here and there, but I don't moderate the entire board for free - as Audra has said in the past, that would be akin to scabbing, and her job is worth what she's getting paid (and more!) and the last thing she needs is someone hanging around doing it for free. I don't think anyone would like it if someone was always stepping in and doing their job for them (for free!) - especially since they might have a different style (and Audra and I do have different styles) and might want to do things differently. I am trying to be conscious of that.

[ 17 November 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Budd Campbell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7019

posted 17 November 2004 07:47 PM      Profile for Budd Campbell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RealityBites:

You [Budd] have been doing nothing BUT dishing it out. When it comes to gay issues you really and truly don't get it. ...


... Troll after troll after venemous troll has come on here to "politely" explain to us how we should be tolerant of those who wish to deny us every single right and who applaud vermin like Larry Spencer as a hero.

...I'm bloody well sick of "reasonable, sweet, polite" people coming on here to talk about restrcting abortion. I'm equally sick of people (not one of whom even pretends to be reasonable, sweet or polite) talking about restricting gay rights.


You're clever enough to realize that you cannot categorically attribute these kinds of statements to me. But you do know how to angrily insinuate that I made noises in support of Spencer or against reproductive choice. I did neither of those things. And you know it.

Spencer is a Neanderthal and I have been pro-choice since the 1960s.

As for dishing it out, I haven't sworn at you or Hephaestion or anyone. You two blast away at people every second post, or so it seems.

[ 17 November 2004: Message edited by: Budd Campbell ]


From: Kerrisdale-Point Grey, Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Klingon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4625

posted 17 November 2004 07:47 PM      Profile for Klingon        Edit/Delete Post
Ghobe!

quote:
Klingon, dammit-all! I'm not going to say that I agreed with Audra, or do. I didn't and I don't. But this second post is just all-consumingly bile-filled. For the love of God, man. Catch your breath and think for a minute.

P'tackh! Just what have you got against bile, Coyote!? I love that taste of it. It's a delicacy on Kronos!

Now belt up and have a good glass of blood wine on me, will ya. The tiff is over. It's getting old, and so are the rest of us.

So let us all drink, for tomorrow we may die.

(In other words, for ye mild mannered terrans, there's a lot more productive things to do with our time that circle the wagons and shoot inward.


From: Kronos, but in BC Observing Political Tretchery | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 17 November 2004 07:48 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Klingon:
K'pla! Michelle is right! Why let this sort of stuff get otherwise good-hearted people into a froth.

I shouldn't have let this whole song and dance get under my "armour," as Magoo would say.

There's no actual term in Klingonaase for "peace" (does that surprise you), but usually an affirmative nod and growl will do.

GRRRRR---RUFF


I'm still somewhat peeved. But I can accept an armed truce.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 17 November 2004 07:50 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
K'pla! Michelle is right!

Yay!

Popcorn, everyone?

Did you notice, in the Grope health section today, that popcorn qualifies as a healthy whole grain?

Amazing, but true! For once, something that tastes good is good for us. Doesn't that make you glad? It certainly did moi.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Klingon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4625

posted 17 November 2004 07:51 PM      Profile for Klingon        Edit/Delete Post
P'tachk! michelle, its' too late to take back your apology. The only way you can do that now is to come here and get it.

I have already boken out the blood wine. There's nothing left to fight over for me. It's all been siad. I have been told to shut up, fuch myself, give my head a shake and get lost. What' else could you possibly have to add to such a thorough list!?

PS: thanks for the olive branch. it's tasted pretty good. Got any more?


From: Kronos, but in BC Observing Political Tretchery | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 17 November 2004 07:56 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ha!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 17 November 2004 07:58 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pass the wine, then already!


But seriously, I gotta go write a paper. Le conformisme dans les belles-soeurs. You may all feel free to pity me.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 17 November 2004 08:13 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Someone’s crying, lord, kumbaya
Someone’s crying, lord, kumbaya
Someone’s crying, lord, kumbaya
Oh lord...

...and so fucking forth.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
spatrioter
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2299

posted 17 November 2004 08:14 PM      Profile for spatrioter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*Arrives to the thread, oblivious to his surroundings*

Did someone mention wine?


From: Trinity-Spadina | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 17 November 2004 09:30 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
1. I re-opened the thread. I had more reasons than I can talk about for closing it, but perhaps I shouldn't have closed it, so I reopened it.

2. skdadl, thwap, Heph, and others: Thanks very much for making me smile.

3. Klingon: bloody right I'm going to ask you to take the leadership from us. If that makes me cultish, so be it.

4. Part of my reaction in there was residual seething from Mandos telling me what language to use as a pro-choice activist, and why. We've also been witness to a thread where a bunch of men happily discussing amongst themselves how the feminism forum could be better used. (Yes, women did eventually surface in that thread. Thank the gods.)

5. And finally, to Wingnut: I'm really sorry that I hurt your feelings. I don't think you're the enemy. When I was talking about pro-choice men annoying me as much as anti-choice men, I wasn't talking about you.

I think we have lots of great men here, like BLAKE:316, who started this thread over two years ago when he noticed that men were dominating discussions, even in the feminism forum.

Like, guys. It really has been several years of this. And some women really are getting sick of it. And I do think that many men on these boards act all righteously put upon when asked to not be great-big-bossy-boots when it comes to feminist issues. And I think my Take Back The Night comparison is a good one. Try to think of it like that, if it will help.

Seriously. Go read those old threads and please talk me into thinking things have gotten any better.


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 17 November 2004 09:34 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
I have a lot of respect for you, Audra.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 17 November 2004 09:49 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Truth is, Audra, I am not usually in the feminist forum and I haven't posted on an abortion thread for as long as I can remember.

Skdadl, still my Queen, advised me of the trolling and the many, many abortion related threads that were so offensive.

Had I known, I am sure my response would have been quite different. As it was, not knowing -- and being Irish and thus drawn to a good fight ..., well, it is history.

Also, being Irish, I can be given to a certain amount of melodrama when expressing myself although I am sure few have noticed. And I don't believe in nursing grievances or holding grudges.

So, as my klingon friend might say, tai, Audra. On the next battlefied we shall fight together.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
athena_dreaming
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4574

posted 17 November 2004 10:10 PM      Profile for athena_dreaming   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Now that the flamethrowing is over, would it be possible to have a discussion about what it means to be a feminist ally?

Pretty please?

I think this is an important topic. I think from the posts of other women in this thread, they also think it is an important topic. And I think this is something we should all at least air, or it's going to come back and bite us in the ass again.

I am also going to suggest that it would probably be most helpful to hear from the women first on this one--so what does being a feminist ally mean to you? And I'm using that term specifically because I'm hoping this won't get bogged down in "can a man be a feminist" stuff. Let's leave that question totally alone, not worry about terminology or labels, and try to spell out (for ourselves, individually) what we mean when we say that we want men to support feminism.

Because I think there is a bit of a disconnect between what many of the women mean, and what many of the men mean.

I'll start--even though I don't post much, and a lot of you probably have no clue who I am. Hey, what can I say, new baby, part time masters, selling the house--it's a bit busy. I read all the time though.

*big breath in, big breath out*

Bah, I'm not doing this very well. I've tried now to find some tactful way of saying this about 10 times. I'm just going to say it and hope it comes out well, and if it doens't, please cut me some slack.

I see a lot of male privilege in action here. I know it's not intentional. I know most of you are good guys who are trying hard. That counts. But what I see is that men are dominating the discussion on issues that don't really affect them, that they have no personal experience with; and they're getting a lot of it wrong because of the lack of personal experience. I mean, when I saw that guy posting about how he couldn't understand why more women wouldn't choose adoption--I almost coughed up my spleen. Go through nine months of physical difficulty and total bodily changes that are permanent, be twisted inside out by hormones that have been programmed for millions of years to get you to fall in love with this little person, leak milk, go through this intensely difficult and personal time in a totally public manner (because what are you going to tell your colleagues? You have to tell them something, it's not like you can off into the country and hide), not to mention labour--really. I don't say this often, but only a man could say that.

To me, it would be much more supportive and respectful of women in general and feminism in particular for men who want to be allies to be quiet more, listen more, learn more from the women who are experiencing what it is like to be a woman in our society. This is not every time. I would not suggest that the proper thing to do when one hears a sexist joke, for instance, is to let it pass. Certainly not.

But if you're in a conversation on a topic that is about an exclusively female experience, and there are reams of progressive, feminist women there, I don't think there is much risk that the feminist perspective won't be covered if you don't pipe up. And in an online forum I would htink it would be so much easier. Step back, count the responses. If you see that women's voices are being outnumbered by men's voices on such an issue, hold off a bit. Wait. Is the edifice of reproductive rights going to come crumbling down if you don't add your two pennies to the trollbaiting right this very second? Is Jack Layton going to go read that thread and think, goddamn it that man has a point! if you don't go rushing in to say how vehemently you disagree right now? Is it possible that the women of babble can actually decide for themselves whether to take such a moron seriously, whether or not it merits a response, whether or not their reproductive rights are being threatened, and whether and how to respond? Is it possible that the men of babble could take their lead from the women on feminist issues?

I have a hard time taking the claims of "but we're rushing to defend women's reproductive rights!" seriously. I can't verify this, but I'm skeptical that the fellas here are off writing cheques to NARAL, sending op-ed pieces to the Globe, doing clinic defence, lobbying for increased abortion education for med students, defending OHIP funding of abortion, and so on. Honestly, if the sum total of a person's contribution to the defence of women's reproductive rights is trashing a troll who never had a shot in hell of threatening those rights to begin with, then thanks but no thanks.

You know those old studies about how in classrooms boys speak up x times more often than girls--I see a lot of that here. It's irritating when it's hte middle east, but when it's a conversation on women's bodies, it reaches a whole new level of offensive. And really, which forum it's posted in doesn't matter.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 17 November 2004 10:44 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whew. Can I sponsor a massive group-hug while we're at it?

It's not often we get into this level of infighting on babble and I don't enjoy watching it happen, as much as it appears that I relish wading into any battle on this board that I happen to see.

So, GROUP HUG


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 17 November 2004 10:56 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
*hug*

...er...excuse me...hands above the waist.

[ 17 November 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 17 November 2004 11:00 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
*tsk* Hint!!!

Yer gonna have Mr. Sensitive breathing fire down yer neck for that!

*hugz*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edited to add: HEY!! It's all guys!

C'mon 'n join the group hug, grils! (And then I'll go back to shutting up again, and back to listening)

PS: Any time, Audra!

[ 17 November 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 17 November 2004 11:26 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
*hug*

...er...excuse me...hands above the waist.


I blame my momentary lapse of consciousness.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 17 November 2004 11:37 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Don't worry about it...I do have a class ass.

Gee, where have all the progressive straight men gone? Don't you want to join our group hug?


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 17 November 2004 11:39 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*enthusiastically joins in and supplies wine and music and dances*

Hmm sorry got caught up in it like a medieval baebes concert


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 17 November 2004 11:40 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Way to go, Bacchus.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 17 November 2004 11:55 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
HA!

Hugs!


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 18 November 2004 12:04 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And kisses all 'round.

Let's put this ugliness (which I thankfully missed) down to post-Bush-victory syndrome and move on.

Agreed?


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 18 November 2004 12:16 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:

Gee, where have all the progressive straight men gone? Don't you want to join our group hug?



Shut up and hold me, you big lug.

From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Wizard of Socialism
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posted 18 November 2004 12:20 AM      Profile for The Wizard of Socialism   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Hugs for progressive straight men? And Bloodwine? Throw in some Bularian Canapes, and I'm there! Might make for a good story...
From: A Proud Canadian! | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 18 November 2004 12:35 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Edited..too rude.

[ 18 November 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 18 November 2004 12:47 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If it's true, why get angry about who says it?
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 18 November 2004 01:05 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't agree with everything here, but it might be worth it for some people to read.

Also, the first chapter of her book is here.


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 18 November 2004 01:18 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Hey, everyone, look over here. Mandos and Rasmus are putting on a "We're Men and We Have No Emotions" testostero-play. Everyone be quiet, while we see what's the dealio..
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 18 November 2004 01:19 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't agree with everything there either. If it's true, it's true. It can't possibly get a special truth valuation because of being an oppressed group or whatever. Claims should be taken on their merits.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 18 November 2004 01:20 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hinterland: This is an old argument on babble. I expect Audra at any moment to dredge up a very old thread.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Klingon
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posted 18 November 2004 02:40 AM      Profile for Klingon        Edit/Delete Post
P'tachk! Not another group grope session!

Help! By the hand of Q'lest how do I get off this frickin planet?

Beam me up, Scotty, and raise shields--before they find me and hug me to death!


From: Kronos, but in BC Observing Political Tretchery | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 18 November 2004 08:51 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, I found him! Come and hug him before he beams up up and away!

That is a most helpful summary, rasmus. I wish to meditate on it.

One horrible bit of free association: as I was reading Bishop's list on becoming an ally, for some reason I kept imagining Margaret Wente reading it.

I think that's why I need to meditate for a bit.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 18 November 2004 10:23 AM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mandos: I dredged up all the old threads I'm going to dredge up.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
sillygoil
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posted 18 November 2004 12:30 PM      Profile for sillygoil     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The abortion debate is a contentious topic that will always always always remain emotionally charged and no matter how you feel or what you say, men and women, pro choice and pro life, will always be at odds about the issue.

Accept this and learn to listen to what both sides are saying. Somewhere between the two extremes there are solutions to be found.


From: Little house on the prairie | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Budd Campbell
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posted 18 November 2004 01:25 PM      Profile for Budd Campbell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
... the predictable name-dropping: Dworkin, MacKinnon -- the trolls only know two or three names, and those from thirty years ago)


An interesting point, Skdadl. Who do you think would be on today's list of the correponding top two or three or four names, the most widely read feminist authors today? I am guessing Naomi Wolfe would be one, but who are some others?


From: Kerrisdale-Point Grey, Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 18 November 2004 01:36 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Dworkin, MacKinnon -- the trolls only know two or three names, and those from thirty years ago

Skdadl, are they dead now? Are they thoroughly discredited now? Has the feminist movement of today distanced themselves from them?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
andrean
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posted 18 November 2004 02:02 PM      Profile for andrean     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

Skdadl, are they dead now? Are they thoroughly discredited now? Has the feminist movement of today distanced themselves from them?


Asking questions like this suggests that the feminist movement of today should discredit these theorists and distance themselves from their work. I don't think that's necessary. It's more important to recognize that theorists of the 70s were writing in a particular time and place and that their work is a reflection of their participation in the society of the time. Also, that like any radicals, their job was to challenge, forcefully, what they saw as wrong or flawed in society.

Does that make their works feminist gospel? No, it doesn't. It makes it one thought-provoking opinion that feminists who follow are free to accept, reject or incorporate components of into their own positions.

Feminism isn't one, single, over-arching, completely-agreed-upon position, and the sooner people start remembering that, the better.


From: etobicoke-lakeshore | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 18 November 2004 02:12 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It's more important to recognize that theorists of the 70s were writing in a particular time and place and that their work is a reflection of their participation in the society of the time.

Okay, I'll revise my questions. Has their message changed dramatically in the last 30 years? Would they regard their opinions as "context specific"?

quote:
Feminism isn't one, single, over-arching, completely-agreed-upon position, and the sooner people start remembering that, the better.

I agree. Which makes it all the more illogical to me when feminists who don't believe that, say, sex is rape will still defend Dworkin et al (I'm not suggesting you're 'defending' them, btw.)


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
shaolin
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posted 18 November 2004 02:15 PM      Profile for shaolin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Before the debate starts raging again, I want to hug too! I've not said a word but I've read every post in this thread, the one that caused this thread, and all the threads linked throughout - phew! *exhausted hug*
From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 18 November 2004 02:25 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I'm always up fer hugs!

*HUG*


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 18 November 2004 02:28 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*starts to sing scores from 'Moulin Rouge'

*breaks out his homemade cinnamon liquer*

Its actually very good!!


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 18 November 2004 02:29 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Audra: Sure. I did notice you had dredged up the Favorite, but I was wondering if you had any more In any case, really the only one doing the telling on that thread was me.

BTW, I'm still right. The biggest problem with the feminism forum is that it seems to matter who says what, I have always rejected arguments that it should for any forum, including large parts of this whole "ally" business. Bleah. But you'll note that I've largely avoided dredging up the old issues myself until now.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
token right-wing mascot
Babbler # 4226

posted 18 November 2004 02:35 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lick who with cinnamon?

As a straight man, am I allowed to like Show Tunes? If so, then I get to sing Zidler's role.

If not, then who is Zidler?


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 18 November 2004 02:36 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually as a straight guy, I LIKE showtunes (mostly)

I msut confess to having Evita and Moulin Rouge and thoroughly enjoying them. (always fancied myself the zigler type)


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 18 November 2004 02:39 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought the spelling was Zigler but IMDB has it as zidler.

Speaking of show tunes, Webers PTO makes the big screen next month. Mrs Floyd is already dreading the two month onslaught of me singing the whole cd in the car.


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 18 November 2004 02:39 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
I can't stand musicals, and Gilbert and Sullivan makes me retch.

I am the very model of a modern Major-General,
I've information vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical
From Marathon to Waterloo, in order...

Kill me, kill me now.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
andrean
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posted 18 November 2004 02:41 PM      Profile for andrean     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dworkin's oft-quoted "sex is rape" statement doesn't make any more sense out of its original context than if I were to quote you saying that and announce that Mr Magoo thinks sex is rape. She was talking about an entire social/historical structure of oppression of women, within which women have had to "submit" in various ways to men. If one believes that in a male-dominated, patriarchal, society women have no free will (as they are subjugated to men), then it's hardly a leap to see heterosexual intercourse as "rape", since by definition, women who have no free will are unable to consent.

Though I don't personally subscribe to that theory, nor do any feminists that I know, it remains a dramatic depiction of women's oppression under patricarchy. You don't have to agree with it; it's enough that it makes you consider.


From: etobicoke-lakeshore | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 18 November 2004 02:44 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OOOhh I lvoe that one too!! Im often singing that one!! Cant wait for it and my wife is already getting ear plugs cuz of my singing in advance

I like Gilbert and Sullivan but I was never exposed to it much as a child because my mothers father played it night and day and she cant stand it.


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Budd Campbell
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posted 18 November 2004 02:48 PM      Profile for Budd Campbell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by andrean:

Asking questions like this suggests that the feminist movement of today should discredit these theorists and distance themselves from their work. I don't think that's necessary.


In any organization or movement, if a doctrine that was once not just accepted but insisted upon, has been abandoned or just modified, diluted, moderated, usually some kind of announcement is in order.

It could well take the form of saying that it once appeared to us that such and such was true, but we now have more information, therefore we now think differently. There would not have to be some harsh denunciation, unless of course the outgoing doctrine contained dangerous and intellectually dishonest excesses, like US McCarthyism in the 1950s.


From: Kerrisdale-Point Grey, Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
andrean
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posted 18 November 2004 02:55 PM      Profile for andrean     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Budd Campbell:

It could well take the form of saying that it once appeared to us that such and such was true, but we now have more information, therefore we now think differently.



No one ever declared this position "true", so there's hardly a need to make an announcement to the contrary. Besides, who would make it? Who's the queen feminist that's going to decide what's "true" and what isn't?

[ 18 November 2004: Message edited by: andrean ]


From: etobicoke-lakeshore | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
shaolin
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posted 18 November 2004 02:57 PM      Profile for shaolin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In any organization or movement, if a doctrine that was once not just accepted but insisted upon, has been abandoned or just modified, diluted, moderated, usually some kind of announcement is in order.

Yes, who is making the announcements for the movement these days? And when can I be the person who gets to insist upon the things that must be present in our unified little movement?


From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
athena_dreaming
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posted 18 November 2004 02:58 PM      Profile for athena_dreaming   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks, rasmus, that was interesting. I only had a chance to skim, but enjoyed the links thoroughly.

Mandos, who says what matters because sometimes people are much, much less right than they think they are, because of who they are.

Or hey, why don't I get a bunch of my women friends together adn we'll talk about the pros and cons of vasectomy? I'm sure that us all being women won't have any impact or influence on the content of our discussions.

Personally, I think they should be mandated for any man who has fathered three children.

(I don't, really, but I do think the idea of a whole bunch of women sitting around talking about men's access to reproductive rights and bodily control would get your blood boiling. Not that that's ever happened, because no one believes that women should control men's bodies.)


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 18 November 2004 03:00 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It needed be done in that way. In the world of history, its not unusual for historians to mention a theory and state that its no longer a viable one (ala David Irving for a extreme example).

The same thing is generally applied to health sciences, psychology, Sociology etc. (it was commonly accepted thus, but no longer held by the mainstream)

I dont think anyones arguing that there is a queen to make pronouncements


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 18 November 2004 03:02 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
(I don't, really, but I do think the idea of a whole bunch of women sitting around talking about men's access to reproductive rights and bodily control would get your blood boiling. Not that that's ever happened, because no one believes that women should control men's bodies.)

Actually yeah I have seen this, many times. Mostly when my wife or other significant others have gotten together with their friends. In fact, I know of several women who put on high pressure for their SOs to get one, constantly, telling them its best for all and the way it should be done

edited to add
Not that I think its right but I point it out to highlight that the only absolute is that there are no absolutes

[ 18 November 2004: Message edited by: Bacchus ]


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 18 November 2004 03:03 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
AD: It wouldn't bother me. See, men's reproductive status, in the aggregate, does in fact have an effect on women. If it were a sensitive political issue, so much so the more that I wouldn't have a problem with random women talking about it.

Of course, I reserve the right to disagree with them. But not to say that they ought not to say it.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 18 November 2004 03:04 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Doctrine"? What kind of nonsense is that?

There is no "doctrine," and I said nothing of what I think/thought of Dworkin or any of the other (few) very famous American women news of whom has penetrated through to even the most benighted souls.

I have a hard time taking seriously people who know nothing of any major socio-cultural movement except the names of a few American "stars." I mean, honey, buy a copy of People magazine if that's your thought level.

Budd, you use the name "Dworkin" like a magic charm. Drop it into any sentence, like a solid object, and magically, you've made a point, or so you think.

No feminist would do that.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Budd Campbell
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posted 18 November 2004 03:05 PM      Profile for Budd Campbell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by andrean:

No one ever declared this position "true", so there's hardly a need to make an announcement to the contrary. Besides, who would make it? Who's the queen feminist that's going to decide what's "true" and what isn't?


Well, I think there was a time, more like twenty years ago, not thirty, when McKinnon and Dworkin were certainly an ascendant viewpoint and adherence was pretty much insisted upon. I used to run into that at NDP gatherings.

Who makes such an announcement? In Canada, since the NAC has kind of fallen apart that's a good question and maybe you can answer it. What is the pre-eminent feminist organization in Canada today?

But besides that, in any decentralized movement, as any "ism" is bound to be, there's always a kind of unofficial leadership, a sort of star system, though not necessarily accompanied by the limos and mansions of the better paid stars. So back to my earlier question to Skdadl, can you name two or three or four really top feminist authors as of today, the people who are as influential today as M&D were in 1984?


From: Kerrisdale-Point Grey, Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 18 November 2004 03:11 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well, I think there was a time, more like twenty years ago, not thirty, when McKinnon and Dworkin were certainly an ascendant viewpoint and adherence was pretty much insisted upon.

Well, then I don't think you actually spent a lot of time talking to a variety of women at that time and listened to what they had to say about Dworkin. I know I did, and the discussion was varied.

I get the impression you don't listen to a lot of people, Budd.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 18 November 2004 03:15 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So back to my earlier question to Skdadl, can you name two or three or four really top feminist authors as of today, the people who are as influential today as M&D were in 1984?

I don't accept the (stupid) premise, so why would I answer the (stupid) question?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Budd Campbell
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posted 18 November 2004 03:18 PM      Profile for Budd Campbell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Budd, you use the name "Dworkin" like a magic charm. Drop it into any sentence, like a solid object, and magically, you've made a point, or so you think.

No feminist would do that.


Well Skdadl, I knew I hadn't gone on about M&D, so I editted my way thru this thread and I have found that I only mentioned M&D once, in the very last post. You first brought the names up, and then that quote was referred to in posts by myself and Magoo.

A bit further down there are further mentions by Magoo, Andrean and yourself [twice], and then the one, and only one, by me.


From: Kerrisdale-Point Grey, Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
writer
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posted 18 November 2004 03:21 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The demand for "top feminist writers" doesn't mean anything. There are many "top writers" (whatever that means) who are feminists. There's no rule that feminist writers have to write feminist theory.

I am going to appoint myself femi-queen for the day and announce that I am a "top feminist writer." Now ladies, get in line and agree.

Yay me!

[ 18 November 2004: Message edited by: writer ]


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Budd Campbell
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posted 18 November 2004 03:23 PM      Profile for Budd Campbell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
Well, then I don't think you actually spent a lot of time talking to a variety of women at that time and listened to what they had to say about Dworkin. I know I did, and the discussion was varied.

I get the impression you don't listen to a lot of people, Budd.


Perhaps there was a different climate in Quebec in those years than in Vancouver. As I say, I used to come across this material at NDP meetings and it was presented at the time as THE viewpoint.

For your part, Hinterland, who do you think might be two or three or four of the best known feminist authors today, ones that you find interesting and agreeable.


From: Kerrisdale-Point Grey, Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 18 November 2004 03:26 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bud? You've already forgotten the thread you just started a couple of days ago? About a book called Big Sister? You raised Dworkin there? I read your post? I knew what was coming?

writer, my thoughts exactly. babblegrils and women are the top feminists I know.

But so, like, you've seized the crown for a day, eh? I'm treading on your heels.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Budd Campbell
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posted 18 November 2004 03:26 PM      Profile for Budd Campbell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
I don't accept the (stupid) premise, so why would I answer the (stupid) question?

Why is it stupid? Are you telling me you can't think off-hand of a few feminist authors?


From: Kerrisdale-Point Grey, Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Budd Campbell
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posted 18 November 2004 03:35 PM      Profile for Budd Campbell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Bud? You've already forgotten the thread you just started a couple of days ago?

No, I haven't forgotten, but everyone else has. There haven't been any responses.

Perhaps I can take this opportunity to ask if you've heard of that book and if you've got any opinion on it.


From: Kerrisdale-Point Grey, Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
writer
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posted 18 November 2004 03:40 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps this thread has drifted far from its original focus and has grown too long.

Perhaps Judy MacDonald *is* the top feminist writer of all time, seeing as no one has objected. Perhaps.


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 18 November 2004 03:46 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I heard him interviewed on radio.

He said, "blah blah blah Dworkin blah blah blah MacKinnon blah blah blah."

He also said that Women's Studies courses are mired back there in the blah blah blah. He considers himself a feminist, and he has written this book out of the goodness of his heart (and his much greater wisdom, of course) in order to show us female feminists the way.

He is, in other words, an pompous ass.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
shaolin
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posted 18 November 2004 03:46 PM      Profile for shaolin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps we should go and check out some of the other fabulous topics on the feminist board that have been posted in the last few days and are being neglected...I just stumbled across the big burlesque! Zowie.
From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 18 November 2004 03:48 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by writer:
Perhaps this thread has drifted far from its original focus and has grown too long.

Perhaps Judy MacDonald *is* the top feminist writer of all time, seeing as no one has objected. Perhaps.


Hey, judym: I didn't object, exactly ... But you'll see that I put a limit on the title. You get it for twenty-four hours, m'k? Then pass it on.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Charles
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posted 18 November 2004 03:49 PM      Profile for Charles   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
At the risk of entering a topic I have tried very hard to stay out of, Athena, on a circumcision thread some time ago most of the people who replied were women; it would seem only men should have had this discussion but it was one that everyone felt okay getting into (as they should have). It's human nature to try to engage in topics people feel strongly about (though admittedly men often have a need to shout, "look at me, I'm important, listen to what I have to say!", they (we) don't have a monopoly on it ).
From: Halifax, NS | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 18 November 2004 03:53 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I dunno, Charles. I'm waiting to see what JUDY MACDONALD thinks before I reply
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
writer
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posted 18 November 2004 03:59 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
80%!

Skdadl, where I'm from femi-queen for a day doesn't actually mean I get the crown for a whole 24 hours. I get it till midnight tonight.

I'll do what I can with it. Then it's yours, slightly used.


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 18 November 2004 04:03 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, the goddess forbid I should pre-empt JUDY MACDONALD'S ruling on this one, but as heiress apparent, I advance the suggestion that shaolin is right. I think that some people should go and help lonecat, eg, with the reading list for the women's studies course he's just enrolled in.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Budd Campbell
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posted 18 November 2004 04:30 PM      Profile for Budd Campbell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
I heard him interviewed on radio.

He said, "blah blah blah Dworkin blah blah blah MacKinnon blah blah blah."

He also said that Women's Studies courses are mired back there in the blah blah blah. He considers himself a feminist, and he has written this book out of the goodness of his heart (and his much greater wisdom, of course) in order to show us female feminists the way.

He is, in other words, an pompous ass.


Well thanks, Skdadl, that's a very clear answer. I heard Boyd on the radio too, and as I recall he mentioned M&D to Enright, but a few others as well whom he took issue with.

I really don't care for People magazine which was your last reading recommendation to me. Can you suggest a few current feminist authors that you think have something to say, something I should be reading and thinking about?


From: Kerrisdale-Point Grey, Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
writer
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posted 18 November 2004 04:38 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
skdadl recommends Judy MacDonald! Very very very interesting, with just too much to say. Published by a Vancouver press, to boot!
From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 18 November 2004 04:44 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
skdadl indeed recommends JUDY MACDONALD (although just wait till tomorrow).

I see that swirrlygrrl, on another thread, has a special recommendation for men of good will:

quote:
Read Michael Kaufmann over the holidays, if you can, to understand massculinity and how being pro-feminist involves understanding that men are wounded by traditional gender roles, but that this doesn't make men into the oppressed.

From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
John_D
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Babbler # 5620

posted 18 November 2004 04:53 PM      Profile for John_D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
MEMO

To: Budd Campbell
From: John_D, Customer Service Manager, Clue Shipping Depot
Date: November 18, 2004
Re: Errors in your clue-ordering form

Mr. Campbell

We here at the Clue Shipping Depot greatly appreciate that you thought of us when looking to get a clue. However, I regret to inform you of an error on your order form which has prevented us from shipping you a clue in a timely matter. At the bottom of page 2 of the form, under the box that says "Leave this space empty unless you are a troll", you wrote "Okay." We cannot process your order at this time and encourage you to send in a new order form. Your cheque for 50 babble bucks has been returned, and we will need you to send another cheque, or some other form of payment should you still wish to order one of our clues.

We apologize for any confusion, and to make it up to you, I have authorized my department to send you a clue, free of charge. The clue is: You can ask for feminist "star" writers as much as you want, but people here are too smart for that and won't oblige you. We here at the Clue Shipping Depot hope this gesture takes care of any concerns you may have, and encourage you to continue shopping for clues here so long as you continue to be oblivious. Have a wonderful day!

Sincerely
John_D

PS This is satire. Consider that another one on the house!


From: Workin' 9 to 2 in the 902. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 18 November 2004 04:59 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Awesome. I'm gonna end it on that note.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 18 November 2004 05:04 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post

To John, that is!

[ 18 November 2004: Message edited by: RealityBites ]


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged

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