I'm starting up a new thread because the old one is over 100 posts, and also because, in my opinion, its premise that the riots were "caused by multiculturalism" - something nobody on any side is advocating in France - is utterly false and wilfully provocative.

I was musing about this and thinking that one of the problems in France, other than the marginalisation of immigrant, economically-excluded and "racialised" groups, lies with urban form and the development of huge new towns on the Le Corbusier model after the Second World War. Such developments have not had much better outcomes elsewhere (Brasilia?) In the postwar period, middle-class and stable-working-class families did settle in these projects, but they have tended to become zones for the outcasts of society, despite considerable government intervention and funding to upgrade many projects.

If despairing immigrant areas of Leeds have produced some suicide bombers, despairing council flats in Manchester and London have been fertile territory for neo-thuggery groups of all kinds. So yes, definitely that is a factor.

I want to say more, though, about culture, what a complex problem it is, but I'm about to be interrupted and besides I need to gather my thoughts.

quote:

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Originally posted by lagatta:
I strongly advise all babblers who read French to consult sources in French such as Le Monde, Libération, Le Nouvel Observateur, paris indymedia etc., as often English-language papers of different persuasions do tend to construct a "France" that is the scarecrow or bogeyman representing their own fears, whether multiculturalism or its absence, Islamism, youth gangs, the social welfare state or "rigidities", whatever... This is a complex problem and there are no easy solutions (although equality in access to jobs, education and housing is a no-brainer, in France as elsewhere).

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I believe an English-language edition of Le Monde's séléction hebdo (like the Guardian Weekly) is available with the International Herald Tribune.

But babblers in the RoC are always clamouring to have more French-language content, so...

[ 07 November 2005: Message edited by: lagatta ]

There was a social worker in Clichy (who also grew up locally) quoted in the Grope this a.m. who said that the French-born children of North African immigrants live with an impossible paradox: they are told that they are French, that they must be French, be more French; and yet they also know that, in the sense that most French people (and the rest of the world) still understand what "French" means, they cannot be that.

Multiculturalism has MANY meanings, some of which I heartily approve, others scare me a lot. "Communitarism", similar to the term used by progressive South Asians "Communalism" to describe a society broken down into religious, ethnic, caste etc fiefs (you could describe it better than I do, I'd refer people to material from CERAS on the Alternatives site), is a variety I find very, very scary - separate laws or rules governing different "communities" and neighbourhoods, sometimes distinct common law, in any case the strong influence of ethnic power brokers over their own communities. When studying Italian workers' movements here in Montréal and elsewhere, breaking with such ethnic fiefs was a major point of struggle...

I'd give funding to faith-based schools as another example of the deleterious impact of communautarianism. What people in France, not only on the right but also on the left, and many in immigrant communities, is a situation as they see existing in Britain - with its own form of exclusion.

It's pretty shocking to see such widespread and sustained rioting. Seriously, can anyone anyone here remember such a huge and sustained amount of rioting in a developed country since the aforementioned civil rights movement in the US?

edited to expand on Jim Crow blurb.

[ 07 November 2005: Message edited by: Dex ]

In Glasgow they are starting to knock them down. I think

this song had some effect.

quote:

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I'm a skyscraper wean, I live on the nineteenth flair,
But I'm no gaun oot to play ony mair,
Since we moved to Castlemilk, I'm wasting away,
'Cause I'm getting one less meal every day.

O ye cannae fling pieces oot a twenty-story flat,
Seven-hundred hungry weans will testify to that,
If it's butter, cheese or jeely, if the breid is plain or pan,
The odds against it reaching earth and ninety-nine to one.

---

[ 07 November 2005: Message edited by: mersh ]

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The riots in France – they are right to revolt!

by John Mullen

The ninth and tenth days of rioting in poor suburbs around Paris saw a spread of the riots to other cities around France. During the tenth night 1300 cars were burnt across the country, and 320 people arrested. Other targets of rioters during the night included police stations, unemployment offices, a factory, a McDonalds restaurant and two primary schools.

The incident which sparked the first riots ten days ago was the death of two young boys who tried to hide in an electrical transformer while running from the police. Young people understand that fear, and are used to being treated like animals by the police. The mobs of police sent into the estates in the following days just stoked up further riots. Two days later a police tear gas canister was fired into a mosque during Friday prayers. The message of contempt was clear.

In any case many of the housing estates were just powder kegs waiting to explode. Very high rates of unemployment among young people, more and more cuts in public services, no money for decent transport services to poorer towns, and an interior minister who makes a habit of calling for “a crackdown on the scum” and making other similarly inflammatory declarations.

The thousands of young people in revolt come, for many of them, from a new generation of children of immigrants who are concluding that there is little hope for them. Over recent years they have seen rising electoral support for the fascist Le Pen, racist laws against muslims, and in the last few weeks vicious police round-ups in different parts of town under the excuse of clearing out clandestine immigrants. This summer a series of fires in unsafe housing for poor Africans in Paris where dozens were killed underlined how low down a priority poor people, and particularly non-white poor people, are for this government.

There is also a general political background to the riots. The right wing government is highly unpopular. After the governing party’s disastrous results in regional elections last year, and the victory for the Left in the referendum on the European Constitution six months ago; the government appears as absolutely illegitimate. The Prime Minister De Villepin is so distant from ordinary people he has never even been elected MP, but was appointed by the president. President Chirac is generally known to have been involved in a whole series of shady business deals, and only his presidential privilege is keeping him out of the courts.

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Or maybe because more than 1000 people died during Katrina, a disaster which could have been prevented?

Bush cut back on money to fix the levees which protected New Orleans from the waters of Lake Pontchatrain. So they collapsed.

Then, he didn't send in the National Guard, because they were in Iraq.

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I was musing about this and thinking that one of the problems in France, other than the marginalisation of immigrant, economically-excluded and "racialised" groups, lies with urban form and the development of huge new towns on the Le Corbusier model after the Second World War. Such developments have not had much better outcomes elsewhere (Brasilia?) In the postwar period, middle-class and stable-working-class families did settle in these projects, but they have tended to become zones for the outcasts of society, despite considerable government intervention and funding to upgrade many projects.

---

Since this past July, I spent between two to five days a week working in the most densely populated, hyper-engineered, racialized, working class neighbourhoods I've seen.

Jan Wong wrote about its low crime rate,its overpopulation, and its high percentage of Muslims.

Considering the size and the level of frustration I'm amazed by how little trouble I see, which is much less than the relatively underpopulated street I live on. A very basic humanistic social solidarity exists whcihc helps keep the peace. I meet cousins and neighburs and aunts and everything's cool.

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Originally posted by jrootham:
Drift: On the effects of towers in the park (or not in the park)

In Glasgow they are starting to knock them down. I think

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The history of "urban renewal" in the US is an extremely sad one. In the sixties whole neighborhoods which, though poor, were functional, vibrant communities, were declared "slums," expropriated, demolished, and replaced with these bleak, hideous towers. The towers were built in such a way as to have room for far fewer people than were expropriated to build them. They were built cheaply and incompetently by corrupt, politically-connected construction firms and as a result started to fall apart almost immediately. And since they eliminated the street-level retail, "eyes on the street," and sense of community of the neighborhoods they replaced, crime immediately shot way, way up.

Anyway, by the eighties and nineties it was clear to everyone that these towers had been a horrible mistake. So what did the government do? Repeat the mistake all over again, of course. Once the war on drugs started, the federal government would pressure state and local housing authorities to tear the towers down prematurely (ie, while there were still hundreds of families living in them with nowhere else to go) in order to combat the towers' "drug problems." Families were evicted again, and housing projects were demolished and replaced with... low-density gated suburban-style ranch homes. If you visit low-income neighborhoods in New York and New Jersey you'll notice that they're full of these very new, indentical, single-family houses surrounded by gates with bars on the windows. These new inner-city suburbs may be less bad than the towers were, but for one thing they hold far fewer people than the towers did. And for another thing I'm not entirely sure that that housing style is a viable long-term solution to the problems of crime and poverty. What will these houses be like in 20 years? Will they be torn down again and replaced with... what, this time?

quote:

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Originally posted by lagatta:
Multiculturalism has MANY meanings, some of which I heartily approve, others scare me a lot. "Communitarism", similar to the term used by progressive South Asians "Communalism" to describe a society broken down into religious, ethnic, caste etc fiefs (you could describe it better than I do, I'd refer people to material from CERAS on the Alternatives site), is a variety I find very, very scary - separate laws or rules governing different "communities" and neighbourhoods, sometimes distinct common law, in any case the strong influence of ethnic power brokers over their own communities. When studying Italian workers' movements here in Montréal and elsewhere, breaking with such ethnic fiefs was a major point of struggle...

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The world is already divided into ethnic fiefdoms: 190 of them. Even the ones which are officially secular, pluralistic, democratic, or whatever are still in practice reflections of the values of their ethno/cultural majorities. The idea that the 190 national majorities lucky enough (read, powerful enough) to have their own "societies" (read, states) are somehow more worthy of having their own separate laws / distinct rules than non-majority communities is one with which I disagree.

quote:

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Originally posted by lagatta:
Mandos, I wasn't referring to you or anyone else having an opinion on multiculturalism, but that nobody in France had advocated it.

Multiculturalism has MANY meanings, some of which I heartily approve, others scare me a lot. "Communitarism", similar to the term used by progressive South Asians "Communalism" to describe a society broken down into religious, ethnic, caste etc fiefs (you could describe it better than I do, I'd refer people to material from CERAS on the Alternatives site), is a variety I find very, very scary - separate laws or rules governing different "communities" and neighbourhoods, sometimes distinct common law, in any case the strong influence of ethnic power brokers over their own communities. When studying Italian workers' movements here in Montréal and elsewhere, breaking with such ethnic fiefs was a major point of struggle...

I'd give funding to faith-based schools as another example of the deleterious impact of communautarianism. What people in France, not only on the right but also on the left, and many in immigrant communities, is a situation as they see existing in Britain - with its own form of exclusion.

Most of the demands raised over the years by Maghrebian and Black African groups in France over the decades have centred on integration (jobs, housing, education) and anti-racist (violent racism, arbitrary "contrôles", police being more likely to harrass and arrest PoC etc). The most "multicultural" in content have tended to be a call for affirmative action, and better support for marginalised communities.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by lagatta:
Sure hope so, even if it is just a matter of bad blood between him and that slimy old pol Chirac and the ambitions of de Villepin. I can't abide Sarkozy, who is at once very "ordre moral" + "law and order" and longs for a more "American" society...

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Unfortunatley I remember reading here that:

quote:

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have resurfaced in the wake of comments by current Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, who called rioters “scum” and who many blame for fomenting hostility among the Muslim community. Still, a poll released yesterday showed 57 per cent of French voters have a “very good” or “fairly good” impression of him.

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Thanks for pointing out de Villepin or Chirac's motivations, for possibly dismissing him. I completely forgot that de Villepin and Sarkozy were leadership rivals. Hopefully inspite of polling like this, they'll consider the trouble he's raised, and the fact that they'll help themselves if they dismiss him ... let alone the country.

quote:

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Originally posted by ex-hippy:
People sure were fast to dump on Bush during Katrina. Chirac has done zip for 12 days and noone seems to care. Oh wait, he's not American.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gir Draxon:
I'm disappointed that this has gone on this long. Doesn't France have some kind of national police, or an army?

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It's alarming.

In the July/August issue of Foreign Affairs:

quote:

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Multiculturalism has MANY meanings, some of which I heartily approve, others scare me a lot. "Communitarism", similar to the term used by progressive South Asians "Communalism" to describe a society broken down into religious, ethnic, caste etc fiefs (you could describe it better than I do, I'd refer people to material from CERAS on the Alternatives site), is a variety I find very, very scary - separate laws or rules governing different "communities" and neighbourhoods, sometimes distinct common law, in any case the strong influence of ethnic power brokers over their own communities. When studying Italian workers' movements here in Montréal and elsewhere, breaking with such ethnic fiefs was a major point of struggle...

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I really think that French laicisme can be really applied badly. And I think that Canada is far more successful with its minorities, and that Canada's success with minorities has specifically to do with a choice to at least in public rhetoric downplay the notion of the primacy of the two dominant communities. I know at least one babbler who firmly denies this to have been a benefit at all, against all evidence...

quote:

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I'd give funding to faith-based schools as another example of the deleterious impact of communautarianism. What people in France, not only on the right but also on the left, and many in immigrant communities, is a situation as they see existing in Britain - with its own form of exclusion.

---

quote:

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Most of the demands raised over the years by Maghrebian and Black African groups in France over the decades have centred on integration (jobs, housing, education) and anti-racist (violent racism, arbitrary "contrôles", police being more likely to harrass and arrest PoC etc). The most "multicultural" in content have tended to be a call for affirmative action, and better support for marginalised communities.

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Things like affirmative action is an important part of the story, I agree. But the French state must recognize there is a problem and that there is a difference, before any such thing can be agreed. Does it? I'm given to understand that it doesn't even collect statistics on cultural and racial origin!

Let me leave you with a quotation from a commenter at Steve Gilliard's blog (a relatively well-known American politics blog written by a black New Yorker):

quote:

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If a nation is not willing to see its mainstream culture change, it should not allow any immigrants. Assimilation is a two-way street. If you study China, you hear about how that country assimilated a variety of peoples -- but you, if you are American, will also note how *China* changed each time it did.

Think about the foods you ate today. How many are "native"? If you're in New York the analogy is a bit too perfect, admittedly. Still, the point is the US successfuly assimilates when it successfuly changes. Blacks in the US are more assimilated to mainstream culture than 100 years ago and now characteristics of this subculture are spun into mainstream fashion with haste. (While this assimilation was developing, you saw the rip-off artists of the 20th century "whitening" black music. I think that this was a sign that something, culturally, had to give.) In the end, assimilation did occur in a large way, but it was the *mainstream*, majority ethnicity that really changed. The Civil Rights movement wasn't about changing black peoples' minds. It was about changing the minds of white people. It worked, too.

I wonder what aspects of French mainstream lifestyle or fashion are affected by the minorities there?

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Comments are Haloscan-based and hard to link to. Here's the link to the post:

quote:

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Originally posted by Vansterdam Kid:
Does anyone think anything will happen to Sarkozy, ie: will he be dismissed for exacerbating the racial tensions and refering to the rioters as "cockroaches" and "scum"?

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quote:

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quote:
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Originally posted by Vansterdam Kid:
Does anyone think anything will happen to Sarkozy, ie: will he be dismissed for exacerbating the racial tensions and refering to the rioters as "cockroaches" and "scum"?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What should one call people who burn cars, prevent ambulances to pick up the injured, arson schools and businesses, commit murder etc?

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I think the real question is what exactly Sarkozy was hoping to accomplish with such characterizations.

And it's not even a question of ideology or sympathy with the rioters' cause. I certainly don't like neo-nazis, but if one of them was holding hostages and had his gun pointed at a little girl's head, I don't think screaming "you're a fucking COCKROACH!!" at him would do much to help the situation end peacefully.

(Not comparing the rioters to nazis, just trying to show that there are pragmatic reasons for using polite language in a crisis situation, regardless of what you privately think of the people involved.)

[ 08 November 2005: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Carter:
Governments.

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Given the United States' comparatively happier record of integrating immigrants, one may wonder whether the mixed U.S. approach -- separating religion from politics without placing a wall between them, helping immigrants slowly adapt but allowing them relative cultural autonomy -- could inspire Europeans to chart a new course between an increasingly hazardous multiculturalism and a naked secularism that estranges Muslims and other believers.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ex-hippy:
..
I am still not convinced that Trudeau's vision of multicuturalism is very good though as it too may lead to a type of ghetoization, no?
As for the U.S. melting pot I only know that immigrants I know in the U.S. conciously want to be Americans, that there is no government policy that I know of which dictates anything;no praising of multi-culturalism at all. There do seem to be, though, many ethnic neighbourhoods in U.S. cities.
..

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Maybe I'm just skeptical here, but if they can't enforce such other laws as "No setting fire to bloody everything for nearly a fortnight" and "No killing each other", how do they expect to enforce the curfew?

quote:

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Originally posted by Carter:
Governments.

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quote:

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I have been rethinking my views and statements in my 1st thread about multiculturalism. I was quite wrong in my assessment about France: to whit I was not aware that they(the French) insist that everone become "French." As someone posted previously the French-born children of 1st generation immigrants face a dilemma: they are supposed to be French but no-one accepts them as French. Yet France is their home.

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It was quite evident to me that your judgement was based on a certain level of ignorance, because a stark comparision with multculturalism and social unrest felt too much like a desire to quickly discredit something, rather than trying to understand something better. That has been my bête noire when dealing with conservatives on babble.

quote:

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I am still not convinced that Trudeau's vision of multicuturalism is very good though as it too may lead to a type of ghetoization, no?

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Well, does it or not? We have ghettoes in Canada but is multiculturalism the root problem, or is it really something else? Remember that Trudeau was among the first leaders in the world to promote multiculturalism as a state-supported policy for peaceful coexistence of diverse communities, and one that he probably formulated from his experience at looking at multi-ethnic societies (including his own) that have existed more-or-less peacefully for quite a long time. I think his way of expressing it at the time might have been embryonic and poorly understood by people then. And, since Trudeau's reputation is being constantly re-interpreted and revised for political purposes, I'm not sure people even remember correctly what he said or what he meant. In any case, we don't have Trudeau's vision any more; we have the society as it is now.

quote:

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As for the U.S. melting pot I only know that immigrants I know in the U.S. conciously want to be Americans, that there is no government policy that I know of which dictates anything;no praising of multi-culturalism at all. There do seem to be, though, many ethnic neighbourhoods in U.S. cities.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

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There is a distinction between communities where a particular culture or ethnicity predominates and a ghetto, and I'm not sure you aren't mixing up the two.

[ 08 November 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

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because cultures are preserved by people, not by governments.

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Facile and trite statements like this do a disservice to the complexity of human societies, as does a rush to agree with them.

quote:

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French riots: talking sense to right wing friends

If the French government wants people to behave, they may want to stop screwing them over.

On the other hand, it may be to late for that. How reasonable would you be if your mother and sister had their ladies Sunday school class at church tear-gassed and then, as they ran out choking and gagging, got roughed up and called “whore” and “bitch” by the cops?

You think you might be a little disgruntled in that case? I do.

The French government has been waging a war against the poor for a long time. A backlash was inevitable.

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A bit more from the same blog:

quote:

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[...] the essense of my critique is that market-distorting governmental obstacles to competition serve to keep the oppressed down artificially. I mean, “Hello?” They’re not allowed to legally work in the case of many immigrants. You think that might be some kind of monkeywrench in the process of building a productive, middle-class life? I do.

[...]

Some say that pointing to poverty and injustice is mere making of excuses for thugs. That’s not true at all. Widespread poverty and injustice are actively manufactured by the State. It’s not excusing thuggery to point out that reactionary policies create perverse incentives to become a thug.

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Well I am a bit of a Libertarian and do not wish to see social engineering whoever elects the government. I stand by my facile agreement that cultures are the people. In fact that is why I think multi-culturalism is doomed to failure in the sense that once a person leaves his/her country of origin, the country continues its cultural/social evolution. The person does not. E.g. the Acadians. A freind from Quebec made fun of Acadian French; people from France oftem make fun of Quebec French.

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More facile observations. I'm sorry, but superficial remarks and hackneyed observations of inter-communal relations are not really what matters here.

"Cultural engineering" is a code-word for bigots, did you know that? It always comes from the people who somehow regret that their petty racism, sexism and bigotry are no longer fashionable, and that they cannot express it as loudly and assertively as they used to, or would like to, or at least don't like having it challenged. They regret that such a "cultural engineering" has occurred, rather than come to terms with the fact that those things are a burden on a diverse, democratic society.

[ 08 November 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

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The greatest casualties of the Muslim slums of France are not the unemployed angry young men rioting in the streets. The greatest casualties are their sisters, shut up at night behind closed doors. The women suffer doubly -- once because they aren't accepted by the French, and again because, if they try to behave like French women, they are punished for it.

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For Muslim girls, becoming truly French is not an option

And if you're caught by a subscription wall, here is an alternative:

quote:

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Neither whores nor submissives
Young Muslim women in the working class suburbs of France have two choices: slut or servant. Fadela Amara is trying to offer them a third option: respect. By Rebecca Hillauer

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[ 08 November 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

[ 08 November 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

It is a perfectly normal outcome of the intersection of capitalism, racial inequality, machism and a few other factors, and fairly universal. I don't believe in idealising oppressed groups.

I think the young women in the so-called "immigrant" communities are a great hope for a lot of things in terms of social progress, and the renewal of both the antiracist and feminist movements in France and elsewhere.

I wouldn't be surprised if they come up with more positive and creative solutions to systemic discrimination and exclusion than thier brothers have. I certainly understand the reasons for the explosion of rage, but indeed a lot of the rioting has targeted public services and amenities in their own communities, and even housing projects.

Thinking of housing projects, we must remember that not all public housing in France is ghettoised or ugly. There is a huge public housing stock in France, which is a very good thing; I know a lot of people who live in very pleasant blocks of flats that are public or social housing, mostly in major cities (Paris, Lyon) and adjacent suburbs that are identical to the cities (Montreuil, the other Clichy, Saint-Denis, etc).

[ 08 November 2005: Message edited by: ex-hippy ]

Among other things, she decries "cultural relativism, largely rooted in the left" - huh? In France? I know a LOT of people in just about every shade of the French left, whether PS or PC, far-left organisations such as the LCR or Alternative libertaire, associations (DAL, because I am a member of a tenants' association here and have written about occupations there) and specific groups dealing with immigration, refugee issues, les sans-papiers etc.

A lot of leftists in Franceagree about the need to value different cultures, and see immigration as a positive, dynamic force, but I have never once heard any advocacy of "cultural relativism", separate schools, rules or anything else - from those "ethnically French" or the many people I know from abroad, including North and West Africans.

I am inclined to think, what the hell does she know about France?

quote:

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Originally posted by ex-hippy:
Hinter: You sure judge my opinions very harshly and seem to know all about my racism, ignorance and predjudices, not to mention my low IQ. Such sweeping generalizations about bigots..How do you know what is in the hearts and minds of others?
I suspect you are very unhappy and angry for some reason.

[ 08 November 2005: Message edited by: ex-hippy ]

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You got that right, about angry; not about unhappy. For 4 years now, I've been listening to what I can only judge (because I can't tell what's in people's hearts) as reactionaryism and intolerance being passed off as a legitimate political "difference of opinion" or an issue of simple "free speech" and I don't like what it's doing. I may be a little too harsh with you because I can't often tell what is the result of simply being uninformed, and what is the result of propagandising. I avoid being misunderstood like that myself by trying to reflect first on whether my own judgements about something being good or bad are based on whether I have a clear understanding of something before I express that judgement.

Also, your handle suggests someone who thinks leftist issues are just leftover detritus from the drug-addled '60's (which I never got the chance to enjoy, remember) that older people sensibly discard. Lately, "hippy this" and "hippy that" are hard-right code, so I'm naturally suspicious.

FRENCH TEENS DEMAND FREEDOM FROM VIOLENCE

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Faced with the double-edged danger of becoming victims or of losing their reputations, many girls are banned (or ban themselves) from going out at all. Eric Debarbieux, an educational science professor at the University of Bordeaux in Southern France, wrote in a study on youth violence that small acts of aggression in the quartiers "lead to daily oppression, causing the victims to isolate themselves, to feel powerless and anguished, and to abandon public spaces." Hence, say the movement's organizers, the girls are more likely to give up their education and succumb to forced marriages imposed by their parents. They become submissive, silent, and resigned to their fate.

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In terms of creative responses, this might be of interest:

Let Us Be Moors: Islam, Race and "Connected Histories"

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Hip-hop has emerged as the idiom for the urban activism of minority youth in Europe. For Muslim youth experiencing the crackdown on immigrants, as well as state withdrawal and welfare cuts, hip-hop offers a chance to express critiques, vent rage, declare solidarity with other marginalized youth (particularly African-Americans) and display cultural pride -- to show, as New York rapper DMX says, "who we be."

If American rap has been criticized for its materialism, nihilism and political nonchalance, French hip-hop offers trenchant critiques of racism, globalization and imperialism ...

In addition to verbal release, hip-hop is also used to combat racism and to promote black-white-Arab relations, as in the Urban Peace Festivals and spoken-word poetry events (les slameurs) organized by SOS Racisme. Hip-hop, interestingly, is also being used to counter Islamist influence in the banlieues. The Beurette leader Fadela Amara, who organized the march "Ni putes ni soumises" ("Neither whores nor submissive") -- a march that has now developed into a women's rights organization affiliated with SOS Racisme -- often invites Muslim female rappers to spread a feminist message.

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[ 08 November 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

(I started a thread about Ni putes ni soumises on babble quite a while ago - maybe two years ago - perhaps someone can find it - I find babble search useless).

If you know anything about popular French music, there are a lot of groups drawing on "Mediterranean" or "Moorish" cultural influences, from Carte de séjour (the group in the '80s led by Algerian-Lyonnais Rachid Taha) to Zebda from Toulouse and many others, and there are a lot of Black African influences as well.

There have been many examples of recognition of Maghrebian contributions to French culture, from the beautiful mosque (out-and-about hint: do not miss either the hammam or the tea garden) to the prestigious Institut du Monde arabe. And on a more banal daily life level, couscous is the most popular dish in France, just as chicken tikka masala (a UK invention) is in Britain and kebabs in Germany... There is a lot of North African slang (from Maghrebian Arabic and from Sephardic Jewish expressions as well) in French, from the streets to the press. There is a huge wall to be broken down, but at the same time it is important not to have a simplistic view of the situation.

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Articles in Le Monde, Libération, the BBC news, remind us that not all "Beurs" and "Blacks" are stuck in ghettoised situations, but far to many are.

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As is the case for far too many of the world's marginalized peoples - the majority of our planet's population - everywhere, no?

Nation will call up police reservists and impose curfews to control the violence

AP - PARIS -- France will impose curfews under a state-of-emergency law and call up police reservists to stop rioting that has spread out of Paris' suburbs and into nearly 300 cities and towns across the country, the prime minister said Monday. He called a return to order "our No. 1 responsibility."

quote:

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Originally posted by Mandos:
However, I cannot yet honestly call myself a libertarian because I'm forced to consider the government in Canada as, at present, the more preferable tyranny to extant private tyrannies.

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*COMMUNIQUE COMMUN*

Paris, le 8 novembre 2005

*NON A L’ÉTAT D’EXCEPTION*

Confronté à une révolte née de l’accumulation des inégalités et des discriminations dans les banlieues et les quartiers pauvres, le
gouvernement vient de franchir une nouvelle étape, d’une extrême gravité, dans l’escalade sécuritaire. Même en mai 1968, alors que la
situation était bien plus dramatique, aucune loi d’exception n’avait été utilisée par les pouvoirs publics. La proclamation de l’état
d’urgence répond à une révolte dont les causes sont profondes et bien connues sur le seul terrain de la répression.

Au-delà du message symbolique désastreux que nourrira la référence à la guerre d’Algérie, il ne s’agit pas seulement de « couvre-feu », ce qui est déjà de l’ordre d’une logique de guerre. En fait le gouvernement a sciemment menti. La loi du 3 avril 1955 autorise des interdictions de séjour pour « toute personne cherchant à entraver, de quelque manière que ce soit, l’action des pouvoirs publics », des assignations à
résidence pour « toute personne […] dont l’activité s’avère dangereuse pour la sécurité et l’ordre publics », la fermeture des « lieux de
réunion de toute nature » et l’interdiction des « réunions de nature à provoquer ou à entretenir le désordre ». Le gouvernement a même prévu des perquisitions de nuit. Il peut, en outre, faire « prendre toutes mesures pour assurer le contrôle de la presse et des publications de
toute nature », et donner compétence aux juridictions militaires en concurrence avec les juges ordinaires.

Stopper les violences et rétablir les solidarités dans les banlieues est une nécessité. Cela implique-t-il de les soumettre à une législation d’exception héritée de la période coloniale ? On sait où ène le cycle bien connu qui enchaîne provocations et répression, et quels résultats il permet d’obtenir. Les banlieues n’ont pas besoin d’état d’exception : elles ont besoin, désespérément, de justice, de respect et d’égalité.

*_Signataires :_*

But Le Pen's respectable fascists have always been shadowed by skinheads and other neo-nazi toughs, so that could have proven very dangerous.

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I almost got beat up by one in Lyon several years ago for ripping a Le Pen poster from a public square.

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As I suggested, the Muslim Scare is already being raised. Newsweek wonders if the riots in Paris will increase the ranks of Jihadists. This on the basis of some people reportedly saying "its Baghdad here" and others uttering the word "jihad". World Net Daily brings news that US Congressman Tom Tancredo thinks it shows "you can't integrate some people into your society", while they cite bigot Daniel Pipes ("an expert on Islam") saying that Muslims scorn European ways and conspire to take it over.

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Gwynne Dyer on the Right's disinformation

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Sarkozy plans to run for the presidency next year, and he wants to seem even tougher on crime and on immigrants (two separate issues that he regularly conflates) than his main rival, Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin. But his conviction that the policy of multiculturalism has failed has become the new popular wisdom in France, where right-wing commentators refer to the riots as the "Paris intifada" - as if the rioters were all Muslims...
...The real problem is not the failure of multiculturalism. The Paris riots are actually a splendid demonstration of the successful integration of immigrants into French culture (which has, after all, a long tradition of insurrection and revolution). The Paris riots are not a Muslim uprising. They are not even race riots. They are outbursts of resentment and frustration by the marginalized and the unemployed of every ethnic group...These are neither American-style race riots nor a Muslim rebellion. About half the kids burning cars and buildings are white, working- class, post-Christian French, and they get along with the black and Muslim kids just fine.

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[ 09 November 2005: Message edited by: Sven ]

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Originally posted by Cueball:
I don't think any of the rioters have managed to find him. No doubt he is well hidden.

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(Funny!) I was thinking about France/Europe for a tutorial tomorrow, and decided I was going to play Asian Dub Foundation's Fortress Europe (and circulate lyrics) to hopefully stimulate discussion. They capture some of the frustration and hypocracy quite well, albeit in a more general way:

(snippet)

Got the whole song, or a link to it? I'd like to send it to some friends who work on refugee / sans-papier issues across the pond.

Keep bangin' on the wall
Keep bangin' on the wall
OF FORTRESS EUROPE!

2022 -A new European order
Robot guards patrolling the border
Cybernetic dogs are getting closer and closer
Armoured cars and immigration officers
A burning village in Kosovo
You bombed it out now you're telling us go home
Machine guns strut on the cliffs of Dover
Heads down people look out! we're going over
Burnin up! can we survive re-entry
Past the mines and the cybernetic sentries
Safe european homes built on wars
You don't like the effect don't produce the cause
The chip is in your head not on my shoulder
Total control just around the corner
Open up the floodgates Time's nearly up
Keep banging on the wall of Fortress Europe

Keep banging
Keep banging on the wall of Fortress Europe
We got a right , know the situation
We're the children of globalisation
No borders only true connection
Light the fuse of the insurrection
This generation has no nation
Grass roots pressure the only solution
We're sitting tight
Cos assylum is a right
Put an end to this confusion
Dis is a 21st century Exodus
Dis is a 21st century Exodus

Burnin' up can we survive re-entry
Past the landmines and cybernetic sentries
Plane, train, car , ferry boat or bus
The future is bleeding coming back at us
The chip is in your head not on my shoulder
Total control around the corner
Open up the floodgates Time's nearly up
Keep banging on the wall of Fortress Europe

Keep banging
Keep banging on the wall of Fortress Europe
This is a 21st century Exodus
This is a 21st century Exodus

The editorial begins with the following:

"Rioting by Muslim youth in some 300 French cities and towns seems to be subsiding after two weeks and tougher law enforcement, which is certainly welcome news. The riots have shaken France, however, and the unrest was of such magnitude that it has become a moment of illumination, for French and Americans equally.

In this case, they seem to be recommending what they ALWAYS recommend: free markets!

Oh sure, people who have been excluded for decades will magically become integrated into French citizenship if only social benefits are removed.

I think the recent events have demonstrated that racism has excluded too many people from full participation in French society. What they need is affirmative action, coupled with real penalties for discrimination.

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Originally posted by jeff house:
Oh sure, people who have been excluded for decades will magically become integrated into French citizenship if only social benefits are removed.

I think the recent events have demonstrated that racism has excluded too many people from full participation in French society. What they need is affirmative action, coupled with real penalties for discrimination.

That, and a huge investment in programmes which make young people believe that they have a chance at a decent future.

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The French haven’t (and don’t continue to) make “a huge investment is programmes”? What do you think the French do with all of those tax dollars? Spend it on the military?

The French labor market is so ossified that businesses are reluctant to hire employees because it’s damn near impossible to get rid of them if there is an economic downturn. So, France has a perpetual unemployment rate of one in ten. How are low-skilled immigrants ever going to get jobs with that kind of unemployment??

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The USA is a land of immigrants and people come here because they can (and do) progress here economically in the freer markets of the USA, viz., France.

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Originally posted by Hinterland:
Your obnoxious, pro-American boosterism is very tedious, Sven.

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Being the triumphalist that you are, Hinterland, it figures that you would chime in with a critique of my post.

Let's put it this way: Everything that I have posted that makes a positive comparison of the USA to anything else is "obnoxious, pro-American boosterism".

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Originally posted by ronb:
You have a permanant non-white underclass of your own with zero chance to "progress economically", unless you consider prison to be economic progress.

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Zero change to progress, eh?

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Being the triumphalist that you are, Hinterland, it figures that you would chime in with a critique of my post.

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Triumphalist? Me? Do you even know what that word means? Neo-cons, of the PNAC/End of History type are the triumphalists.

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Let's put it this way: Everything that I have posted that makes a positive comparison of the USA to anything else is "obnoxious, pro-American boosterism".

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Yes. And it's obnoxious. If this weren't about the hated French, I doubt you'd even be bothering. That is so "Freedom Fries" of you, it's almost cute.

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Why don't you actually read the article and then point out any substantive errors (factually or logically), rather than be the "obnoxious" triumphalist that you are and just respond with a knee-jerk reaction. That, my friend, is boring.

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Originally posted by Hinterland:
I don't waste my time with WSJ editorials. With statements that have no relation to fact, but are largely an expression of belief, it's very time consumming to point out where they're off-base. I'll just refer you to all the discussions on babble regarding neo-conservatism.

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Originally posted by Hinterland:
And by the way, Sven, do you actually know anything about immigration to France? About all the other Europeans and Asians who've immigrated to France, and have or have not prospered? I'm sure your knowledge of this whole issue does not extend much beyond some silly little "surrender monkey" spat some Americans are always having with the French, and not much else.

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So, you only read things that confirm your own biases? Why bother reading at all?

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You tell me. I don't get the impression you're all that well-read.

[ 11 November 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

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Originally posted by Hinterland:
I don't get the impression you're all that well-read.

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Go back and look through this thread. There was an engaging dialogue taking place.

Then, this gets pooped out of absolutely nowhere:

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Originally posted by Hinterland:
Your obnoxious, pro-American boosterism is very tedious, Sven.

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Notice how you’ve managed to kill the discussion?

babble *is* a board for progressive discussion, right? I need to remind myself every now and again, when I see these eternal, tedious jousts with those who come here demanding that we discuss the WSJ, their reactionary stances and such.

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Why, because I disagree with you? That’s a laughable basis for such an impression.

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Why do you ask me a question, furnish the answer and then evaluate that answer? That's so juvenile. You are too old for that for me to ignore it.

Most of your opinions and observations on social issues strike me as uninformed; that you've gotten them mostly from reading neo-conservative propaganda like WSJ editorials and not much else. I also don't observe a lot of what I could understand as personal experience on some of the issues you've commented on, such as poverty and cultural diversity, for example, and I don't think you've compensated enough with wider reading on those subjects.

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Notice how you’ve managed to kill the discussion?

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Well, I do my best.

[ 11 November 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

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Originally posted by writer:
babble *is* a board for progressive discussion, right? I need to remind myself every now and again, when I see these eternal, tedious jousts with those who come here demanding that we discuss the WSJ, their reactionary stances and such.

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Jeepers, writer, I didn’t realize the mere posting of a link was “demanding” that everyone read and discuss it.

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babble *is* a board for progressive discussion, right? I need to remind myself every now and again, when I see these eternal, tedious jousts with those who come here demanding that we discuss the WSJ, their reactionary stances and such.

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I think everyone who posts something has the right to engage whatever discussion is merited; and the one I tend to be combative about is neo-conservative propaganda. I think it's very worthwhile to counter it, not on its factual underpinnings (it's usually very sophisticated in how it uses 'factual statements') but for what motivates it.

Back in the real world, Doug Ireland has some interesting remarks about the origins of the "arab" problem in France:

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Moreover, these immigrant workers (especially Moroccans, particularly favored in the auto industry) were favored by industrial employers as passive and unlikely to strike (in sharp contrast to the highly political Continental French working class and its militant, largely Communist-led unions) and cheaper to hire. In some industries, for this reason, literacy was a disqualification -- because an Arab worker who could read could educate himself about politics and become more susceptible to organization into a union.

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The rest of the article provides actual information, not ideology, and is worth reading.

I'm a writer, see?

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I tend to be combative about is neo-conservative propaganda. I think it's very worthwhile to counter it, not on its factual underpinnings (it's usually very sophisticated in how it uses 'factual statements') but for what motivates it.

Too often, a non-response is interpreted as capitulation.

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Which is what progressive people have to do out in the mainstream each and every day. Why do we feel obliged to do it here, on babble? Why are reactionaries indulged so? Why does this shit get so much room here? Why is thread after thread derailed by the agendas we're trying to *counter*?

[ 11 November 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

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Originally posted by Hinterland:
Why do you ask me a question, furnish the answer and then evaluate that answer? That's so juvenile. You are too old for that for me to ignore it.

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Although you are no doubt well-read, need I explain to you that what I asked was what is called a “rhetorical question”? After spending about ten seconds looking at some of your past posts, I find a few “juvenile” rhetorical questions of your own.

For example:

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Originally posted by Hinterland:
You know what bothers me about you, Shane? You're 15 years old...you should be asking questions more than expressing set-in-concrete opinions. I have a good memory. I remember when I was 15 years old. In retrospect, I knew nothing, but at that age, I didn't even think I had the answers to everything. I asked questions. I entertained the idea that I might be lacking the information or the experience, both of which lead to knowledge and wisdom. Those things only come with time. Frankly, I think someone at your age, who thinks he's smart beyond his years, and who has nothing left to learn, is a bit dysfunctional.

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That is an example of you (1) asking a question, (2) answering it and (3) and providing a prescriptive evaluation of the person you were asking the question of.

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Originally posted by Hinterland:
I think everyone who posts something has the right to engage whatever discussion is merited; and the one I tend to be combative about is neo-conservative propaganda. I think it's very worthwhile to counter it, not on its factual underpinnings (it's usually very sophisticated in how it uses 'factual statements') but for what motivates it.

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What a wonderfully unexpected admission. Don’t bother with the fact. Attack assumed motivations.

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Originally posted by ex-hippy:
Hinterland: It is good to counter other peoples opinions/statements but your so-called counters border on the offensive. That is probably a mask for low intelligence whereby you are not able to argue a point cooly and carefully. You just hurl invectives and insults. If you are typical of "progressives' then no progress (from your viewpoint) will ever be made. For that I am thankful.

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That's just too bad. I find non-progressive propaganda coming from neo-conservatives here to be far more offensive, in terms of how it's facilitated the degree misery and death lately, than any concern I have over what your feelings are.

[ 11 November 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

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Originally posted by writer:
Yes, this is about more than just a link.

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That is an example of you (1) asking a question, (2) answering it and (3) and providing a prescriptive evaluation of the person you were asking the question of.

Huh.

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Oh, man...what are you doing? Are you googling "babble" and "hinterland" again, scrutinising my posting history and lookin' for ammo?

Get ready to retch:

Cal Thomas: France is Our Future

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France will be America's future, if we don't stop denying that this invasion is deliberate and purposeful. If we don't end the proliferation of radical Muslims, it would not be out of the question to predict a terrorist plot to blow up American cities, if the U.S. government fails to bow to fanatical demands to abandon Israel. What would the government do if weapons of mass destruction were placed in our cities and it was announced that unless Washington met their demands, millions of Americans would be annihilated? Before you start accusing me of bigotry, on what basis — other than your wishful thinking and refusal to confront this threat — do you base your position?

This is not going to be pleasant for countries and cultures that have believed in the "melting pot," but radical surgery on a growing cancer is what is needed when early warning signs have been ignored. France must deport the most dangerous and violent radicals whose goal is to turn the country into an Islamic state dominated by Sharia law. The message should be: if you engage in or promote violence, you're gone from the country.

In the United States, a concerted effort is being made to convert more of us to Islam, especially in prisons. According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, in September 2003, some 5.5 percent of the federal inmate population (172,785 on Oct. 6, 2003) were some form of Muslim. Why shouldn't we fight back by reaching out to them with our religious and political doctrines? I know Muslims who have been converted and now live peaceful and productive lives among us. We shouldn't passively allow them to proceed with their conversion agenda with no response. Let's peacefully and lovingly share our far better religious and cultural message with them.

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Originally posted by Hinterland:
Oh, man...what are you doing? Are you googling "babble" and "hinterland" again, scrutinising my posting history and lookin' for ammo?

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