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Author Topic: Bodies That Matter
Trespasser
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posted 02 February 2002 05:19 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
After much postponement, the time for my first Pap-test has come.

I've been avoiding it as one of those events that unequivocally locate me as a woman, that anchor me within the sexual binary as the carrier of natural womanhood. The meaning of that designation has been very stifling, and even nowadays (centuries after Mary Wollstonecraft) I see it contains primarily child-bearing, nurture, woman-the-gatherer, 'connection with Nature', flowers, rainbow... whatever...

Some time during your adolescence, people start calling you that name. Just when I thought I was a Being-of-a-Thousand-Beings, they started calling me woman, without me having much say in what that word means. Most of my life I felt I was a free member of a Gender degree Zero limbo, a cyborg, a nomad, an anything-I'd-dare-to-imagine, with an endlessly elusive body that had no Centre that would be the ultimate sign of sexual belonging. I've come to realize, though, that on some occasions there's no escape from naming. You are a Woman, and your passages are: growth of your breasts, first menstruation, first vaginal penetration, first child, menopause. Oh, and annual Pap Tests, of course.

Could we conceive of a world in which there are more than two sexes/genders? How about five, or ten? What are the occasions in which you're sexualized as a Woman (or a Man, for that matter), in which you're named, or you feel like, for better or worse, a natural woman? (Aretha Franklin lives!) Why are breasts so highly sexualized? (Why not those flashes of skin between the glove and the sleeve, the shoes and the trousers, the space where the shirt ends and the neck skin opens? Why not ears, elbows, nose, anything 'far away' from reproductive organs?) And could we imagine a different anthropology, the one without the sexual binary, the one more complex, cyborgian, the one that would allow different categories to reach the status of 'naturalness'?

As things are now, speculum does not provide for much movement space. It narrowly opens up an entrance, but keeps the rest of your body immobile.


From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pat
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posted 02 February 2002 05:39 PM      Profile for Pat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey Tresspasser have you ever read the Cyborg Manifesto by Donna Haraway. It's one of the toughest reads I've run into but it raises some interesting points about cyborgs and gender and the possibilities it opens up for blurring and expanding gender boundaries.
From: lalaland | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Trespasser
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posted 02 February 2002 05:52 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I loved Cyborg Manifesto, thanks for noticing that reference! I think it's still relevant, even more for the latest anthropological debates about what is human in the era of corporate genetic engineering, than for the sexual difference issues. And where does the line between a human and a 'machine' lie, etc etc. Lotsa of questions.

Last sentence (I'd rather be a cyborg, than a Goddess) priceless, isn't it?


From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pat
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posted 02 February 2002 06:03 PM      Profile for Pat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I almost forgot about that last line. The Cyborg manifesto does seem even more relevant now with all the genetic engineering going on.
I wasn't much of a Sci-fi fan until I read the CM but Sci-fi has the possibility of opening up new definitions for gender and the human condition.

From: lalaland | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 02 February 2002 07:40 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Elbows, at one time, were sexualized. It was considered quite scandalous for a lady to expose her elbows in public. I don't understand why exactly that was, unfortunately, beyond a fear of the effect of naked female flesh in general.
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trisha
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posted 03 February 2002 02:03 AM      Profile for Trisha     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ankles were also once considered a highly erotic area to see. I believe that in some oriental countries the back of the neck is still considered so.
From: Thunder Bay, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 03 February 2002 10:00 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ooh, Doug, Trisha, you're getting me stirred up. (I have to confess that I always look at the back of men's necks -- *blush* -- I find them sort of touching, y'know? )

Are you thinking about those times when we feel that some kind of "femininity" is being imposed on us from the outside, Tres? My sense of that happening to me has ebbed and flowed through my life, I realize. Oddly enough, some of the experiences you mention I associate not with having femininity imposed on me but with being medicalized, which I really hate deeply.

(The moment I write that, I feel I should add a warning: A friend of mine died of cervical cancer at the age of 52, one of the worst losses I've ever experienced, partly because it was unnecessary. She hadn't had a Pap smear for about ten years. No woman in Canada -- well, no woman anywhere, for that matter -- should be dying that way any more. Alienating though so much of modern medicine may be, some of it, and that one test in particular, we have to defend, hoping all the time that it may be superseded as soon as possible.)

I know this is an odd thing to say, and maybe it's because I never had children, but I honestly don't think of my body as especially feminine, not in the sense you're discussing here. When I think both of what I consider to be genuine feminine strengths and of the femininity that others have tried to impose on me and that I haven't liked, I'm probably usually thinking of the psycho-social. I don't think that automatically makes me alienated from my body (although there've been times ...); but I honestly don't think of it as the site of femininity.

Or maybe I'm forgetting a lot. Remind me.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trespasser
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posted 03 February 2002 02:36 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was hoping someone would stress that caveat about Pap-test, of course (and I was hoping that it would not be Tommy Paine, ahem), and it's sure good that fewer and fewer women are dying at child birth and so on. No thing is simply bad or simply good under all circumstances, obviously.

But it's interesting to learn how natural femaleness comes into being through medical gaze. There's been a vast array of feminist critiques of biology and medical sciences - names like Anne Fausto-Sterling, Ruth Hubbard, Donna Haraway, Emily Martin have documented instances in which genetical, hormonal, anatomical, primatological and zoological researchers have used highly gendered (and often racialized) meanings to describe their observations or to form their objects of study, and it's both entertaining and unnerving to read those accounts. I have come to believe that every scientific research into biological basis for sexual difference is always political and ideological to a certain degree. Since the language that the researchers use is always already gendered ('neutral observation language' is quite an outdated hope), in a way gender is older than sex -- and the conventional wisdom would have it that no, sex is primary and firm, and gender is to sex what 'culture' is to 'nature.' I find that this twist opens many possibilities. (I was hoping not to get embroiled in the referencing and book rummaging for this, so here's just a link to an interesting interview with Ruth Hubbard: Exploding the Gene Myth).

All this was just an intro to the following issue, though. We live in an age in which the most important political struggles concern the body. Multi-national food industry, intensive farming, water exports, genetically modified foods, gene patenting and gene therapy, stem-cell research and cloning, xenotransplantation: all these issues are related to bodily integrity, health, basic survival. Maybe we'll be lucky enough to witness the birth of a new corpus of human rights, a universal declaration of rights and duties related to autonomy and dignity of human body. Yet the tough part, in my view, will be to avoid going back to the rhetoric of the natural body (and, some would add, to religious concepts of humanity). You know, we mustn't mess with genetic manipulation because we would be interfering with the natural body. That's just not good enough. We have always been cyborgs: hygiene is unnatural, curing disease is unnatural, human extensions are unnatural, language is unnatural, not giving birth to children is unnatural.

In orger to fight against corporate genetics and state violation of privacy through genetic profiling, for instance, we would need a notion of bodily autonomy that would not be tied to any concept of 'naturalness.' We would need a clearer political and ethical distinction between good and bad cyborgs. I want to be a cyborg at ease with the world, and I want to be the one to call the shots in my own production . I'll OK the speculum for now, but I may not OK corporate gene patenting -- if I ever get a chance to be asked, that is.

Anyway. I'm losing myself in the maze of my own argument so I'll stop.


From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 04 February 2002 12:11 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I hear you Tress... I detest pap smears, but, hey, who gets excited over them?... unless y'know you're into that sort of thing.

It so classifies you. Get your womanly parts checked, assesed and passed like a car. I guess the same goes for guys with prostate and testicular cancer goes. Stamped, male, healthy, NEXT!

GOOD that you're going, what skadl said is so true, women should not be dying at the rate they are from this horrid disease. Same goes for breast cancer. My mother in law has not been to a doctor since her last child was born, 21 years ago... and that scares the heck out of me. Cervical cancer is very treatable if caught early, and if you get your little donut o'muscle checked every year, then it will always be caught "early."

Do you do anything special for yourself afterwards? I find that helps. Buying a gift just for me and my favourite take-out kinda off-sets the get-naked-under-the-paper-sheet-scoot-to-the-edge-of-the-table-and-talk-about-anything-else-feeling for me.


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
OlderSister
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posted 08 February 2002 10:59 AM      Profile for OlderSister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just noticed this topic.
Would like to say just this.
I think that speculum looks like some middle ages torture instrument. It should be more user friendly and disposable.
I bet men designed it.

From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 08 February 2002 11:03 AM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'd bet you're RIGHT.

Though, I'm not sure what else could be designed to open the vagina in order to access the cervix.

hmmmm


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 08 February 2002 11:05 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
For. Sure.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trespasser
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posted 25 March 2002 01:25 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Appearances to the contrary, I don't particularly like resurrecting my old threads (I can never recognize the person who wrote under my handle, ahem) but I thought this would be worth it. Speaking of cyborgian anthropology...

At Airport Gate, A Cyborg Unplugged

quote:
STEVE MANN, an engineering professor at the University of Toronto, has lived as a cyborg for more than 20 years, wearing a web of wires, computers and electronic sensors that are designed to augment his memory, enhance his vision and keep tabs on his vital signs. Although his wearable computer system sometimes elicited stares, he never encountered any problems going through the security gates at airports.

Last month that changed. Before boarding a Toronto-bound plane at St. John's International Airport in Newfoundland, Dr. Mann says, he went through a three-day ordeal in which he was ultimately strip-searched and injured by security personnel. During the incident, he said, $56,800 worth of his $500,000 equipment was lost or damaged beyond repair, including the eyeglasses that serve as his display screen.



From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 25 March 2002 01:37 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We already have a thread on Steve Mann. I found myself Isolated And Alone there, alas, in front of the technophobes:

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=001161


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trespasser
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posted 25 March 2002 01:43 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Howthehelldidimissthisidon'tknow...
From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 25 March 2002 09:16 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
(and I was hoping that it would not be Tommy Paine, ahem)

You rang, Madame?

I can't even pretend to know anything about pap smears, except that my daughter had one a while back, it was unpleasent for her, but it was a good thing.

As for the sexualization of various parts of the female anatomy, who knows?

The most erotic thing I've seen in public in the last few years happened to be an Amish woman applying sunscreen to her calves-- the only thing left uncovered by her neck high thin cotton sundress. Was it the bare calves or the smile she gave me when she saw me blush when she caught me watching? I dunno.

On the other hand, about a year ago I was downtown and saw a hairdresser taking a break outside an exclusive downtown hair place. She was tripped out in what constitues fetish gear for me, tight black (ultra tight) short dress, unsensible very high heels (the ankle strap kind) make up done in a profoundly professional way, you get the picture.

She spit on the sidewalk. An astoundingly unattractive thing to do.

Sexuality, gender, these things are situational to a larger extent than what we think on the surface.

During medical exams, of most types, it's best to leave your dignity with the receptionist for you to pick up on your way out, 'cause you won't be needing it where your going.

Pap smears? What am I going to do with my sexuality when I go for my first prostrate exam?

I think I'm going to have a nice candle lit bath before I go, a glass of wine, and think warm sexy thoughts.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 26 March 2002 12:54 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Annie Sprinkle used to do this cervix/speculum bit during her shows that quite de-mystified and de-medicalized the whole pap smear thing.

I can't say I really enjoy doing the internal exam/pap smear each year, but it doesn't bother me. It just goes along with checking my blood pressure, heart, lungs, eyes and ears. When I first became sexually active, it freaked me out, having my hoo-hoo hanging out in front of a virtual stranger, but after delivering the first baby, personal modesty pretty much went down the crapper.

It's my body...some days I love it, some days it annoys me with its pains, aches and inefficiencies. It's tied up with my both my gender identity and my non-biological identity in complex ways. It's the source of an enormous amount of pleasure and some disappointment.

It no longer fits the aesthetic ideal of womanly beauty held by this current society in this particular culture, but whose does anyway? Some people find it attractive still. I could complain, but I won't because it's a strong and healthy body that's produced two children and served me well these 40 years. I hope it continues to do so for the next 40, when my vagina and cervix may well be of medical interest only. Perish the thought.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 27 March 2002 05:23 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Ankles were also once considered a highly erotic area to see. I believe that in some oriental countries the back of the neck is still considered so."

Anyone who owns a kimono will note that there is a v-shaped cut on the back, at the top. It is there to expose the uppermost knob of a cervical verteba (bend your head forward and you can feel it yourself, if you are not cyborgian there).

This particular point is the acme of erotic, I am reliably informed.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 27 March 2002 05:28 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I find the back of the neck very erotic.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 27 March 2002 05:49 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I haven't much to add here on a serious note, but talking of internal exams and such... I just can't resist telling you this story.

TLM and I went to the same GP in Vancouver, whom I'll call B. Woman in her early 30s, funny, irreverent. Looking for some more practical gear for doing Pap smears and internal exams, she goes to Mountain Equipment Co-op and started checking out the headlamps used by climbers and cave-explorers and the like.

Along comes one of the usual pink-cheeked, fresh-faced young sales lads to offer his assistance. She expresses her interest in the headlamps. What will you be using it for, he asks. She tells him, matter-of-factly and even absently, not remembering he's a civilian. He turns several remarkable colours in his embarrassment.

Relating this to TLM later, B shrugs and says "well, it's kind of like spelunking."


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
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posted 27 March 2002 05:51 PM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My list of body parts that are not erotic has only one entry. "I O U. 5 bucks" What it means? I don't know. But I do know that my wife returns tomorrow and there are no body parts that I won't be all over! aaaarrrrrroooooooooo!!!!!
From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trespasser
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posted 27 March 2002 08:35 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

On a different note. There is something to that famous philosophical one-liner that "real feminist revolution won't begin until men start talking about their bodies." (Was that Irigaray, I don't remember... I know I read the quote in Men in Feminism by Alice Jardin and a guy.)


From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 27 March 2002 08:52 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
There is something to that famous philosophical one-liner that "real feminist revolution won't begin until men start talking about their bodies."

I was about to day, maybe it's begun then, judging by the number of magazines on the stands aimed at men and all about their bodies.

But then I thought -- it's nothing personal, it's just business.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trespasser
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posted 27 March 2002 09:04 PM      Profile for Trespasser   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Exactly.

Hearing men (say, philosophers? historians?)really speak about their bodies would mean they concede "locatedness", finiteness, particularity, awereness of one's boundaries.

I am interested in the idea of male studies. Although, not unlike 'white studies', 'male studies' might look like backpedalling under certain circumstances, I still think it's generally a great idea.


From: maritimes | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Thandiwe
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posted 15 April 2002 10:30 PM      Profile for Thandiwe   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's why, it seems to me, "Gender Studies" would be a better term for the whole field.
From: Winnipeg | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged

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