Sheikh: In many Arab states, the middle class is disappearing. The rich get richer and the poor get still poorer. Look at the schools in Jordan, Egypt or Morocco: You have up to 70 youngsters crammed together in a single classroom. How can a teacher do his job in such circumstances? The public hospitals are also in a hopeless condition. These are just examples. They show how hopeless the situation is for us in the Middle East.

Heumann: Who is responsible for the situation?

Sheikh: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the most important reasons why these crises and problems continue to simmer. The day when Israel was founded created the basis for our problems. The West should finally come to understand this. Everything would be much calmer if the Palestinians were given their rights.

Heumann: Do you mean to say that if Israel did not exist, there would suddenly be democracy in Egypt, that the schools in Morocco would be better, that the public clinics in Jordan would function better?

Sheikh: I think so.

Heumann: Can you please explain to me what the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has to do with these problems?

Sheikh: The Palestinian cause is central for Arab thinking.

Heumann: In the end, is it a matter of feelings of self-esteem?

Sheikh: Exactly. It’s because we always lose to Israel. It gnaws at the people in the Middle East that such a small country as Israel, with only about 7 million inhabitants, can defeat the Arab nation with its 350 million. That hurts our collective ego. The Palestinian problem is in the genes of every Arab. The West’s problem is that it does not understand this.

And then the Israelis and Americans having inflicted unspeakable violence on any Arabs who fail to bend, sit back and judge their handiwork blaming Arabs for blaming Israel.

The choice for Arabs is to be obedient dogs barking when told to speak like Abbas or King Abdullah, or to winge on camera as your nation is destroyed for not being supine enough like Lebanon's Siniora.

And what about the rockets that are still being fired daily by the Palestinians?

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]

Who for many years contolled the Middle East? And who were the colonial masters?

quote:

---

Thus Jim Baker & Co. or a Jimmy Carter apparently assumes that Ahmed Sheikh’s dreamlike Arab version of middle class tax cuts, No Child Left Behind, or Open Enrollments for HMOs will usher peace to the region if only Israel would concede what its enemies demand or disappear entirely.

This is utter nonsense, precisely because Arab detestation of Israel is a symptom, not the malady, of the current Arab crisis of the spirit. Ahmed Sheikh himself stumbles onto that truth. To gain the necessary maturity and self-confidence that would mitigate scapegoating Israel, the Arab Middle East would have to make vast structural changes in traditional Islamic society that would usher in freedom, prosperity, and security.

In other words, new Arab consensual societies would have to create the sort of landscape that they see elsewhere in Europe, Asia, North America, and Israel when they turn on their satellite TVs and browse the internet — and also understand that such success came from within, not merely from foreign aid or the accidental discovery of oil beneath their feet.

And what would that landscape look like?

Something along the lines of what the West has been attempting in both Afghanistan and Iraq: freedom of the press, alliance to the state rather than to the tribe, constitutional government, tolerance for diverse opinion and belief, equality of the sexes, an open economy, and government transparency to ensure the protection of capital and investment.

Meet even a partial list of all that, and soon an economy would prosper without oil; schools would teach knowledge rather than hatred, bias, and religious superstition; and clinics might have their own competently trained and equipped medical personnel.

Palestine really is the touchstone of the Middle East, insofar as it is a valuable window into the minds and hearts of Middle Easterners. The sources of Arab anger about Israel should remind us of the need both to keep pressuring Middle East governments to reform and to continue trying to stabilize Iraq in hopes that something can emerge there different from the theocracy to its south, the autocracy to its west, and the monarchies to its east.

Finally, there is yet another irony to Mr. Sheikh’s lamentations (which we will apparently soon be privileged to hear, when al Jazeera goes live in English throughout the West): Where alone in the Middle East is there his dream of an Arab middle class of sorts? Where do Arabs have good schools? And where is there adequate medical care?

Ask the over one million Palestinians who live in a democratic Israel.

---

More from the article

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]

quote:

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Originally posted by remind:
Good grief nussy, perhaps you should think a bit before posting such inane questions. Think about what was going in the world leading up to to the creation of Israel?

Who for many years contolled the Middle East? And who were the colonial masters?

Do you know anything at all that lead up to the creation of Israel? Of course not, or you would not have posted such questions.

---

In other words "be sure to quote from the politically correct mantra/script"

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]

quote:

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Why did they not progress before the State of Israel wss born? Who dropped bombs on them then?

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quote:

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And what about the rockets that are still being fired daily by the Palestinians?

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Then again, you've linked a post to a site that is running this banner:

quote:

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Join fellow conservatives, leading writers, and top policymakers at the National Review Institute’s Conservative Summit in January.

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Lets see if I can't find an article or 2 trying to justify the near civil war in Iraq as something that was going to happen regardless of invasion... Or maybe reasoning to invade Iran ^^

That aside... Ahmed Sheikh's comments here paralell Bush pointing at other nations and calling them the axis of evil. Makes you wonder whats going through his head.

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Peech:
In other words "be sure to quote from the politically correct mantra/script"

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quote:

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Why did they not progress before the State of Israel wss born? Who dropped bombs on them then?

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quote:

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And what about the rockets that are still being fired daily by the Palestinians?

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quote:

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I notice that the Saudis don't have much freedom nor do the Iranians. What about Darfour? Is that Israels fault as well?

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What about Darfour? If you read anything beyond the bigoted scribes you prefer, you might realize that what is happening in the that region of Africa is directly related to climate change and global dimming and is spreading into a regional conflict for water, farming and grazing lands. But that sort of information really doesn't fit with your agenda of painting all Islamic people as backwards and violent, does it?

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

quote:

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Originally posted by remind:
I am not sure what you are meaning with this, but I do ask you to stop putting words in my mouth.

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Sorry if I have offended you. I meant that this is a very complex conflict and your assumption of how it was caused or interpretation of how the state of Israel was created is acceptable in some circles but not universally.

quote:

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That's right, the Saudis are an US protectorate as is Jordan.

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quote:

---

And what about the rockets that are still being fired daily by the Palestinians?

Yes, what about them? It is called the occupation, stupid.

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quote:

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Where do Arabs have good schools? And where is there adequate medical care?

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quote:

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During the 1970's Iraq grows prosperous on oil revenues, modernizes, creates welfare state with loyalty to Baath party and Saddam Hussein who proclaims Iraq as center of Arab world.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Yes, and it is still a response to Israeli war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide conducted against the Palestinian people especially in Gaza.

"It is the occupation, stupid" is a slogan that attempts to shift the dialogue to the root cause of Middle-East violence in the modern context. Get used to it.

---

Targeting civilians with rockets filled with ball bearings or suicide bombs is murder. Get used to it.

quote:

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The scale of the rocket attacks on cities, towns and villages in northern Israel, the indiscriminate nature of the weapons used, together with official statements, specifically those of Hizbullah’s leader, show that Hizbullah has committed serious violations of international humanitarian law. These include deliberately attacking civilians and civilian objects, and indiscriminate attacks, both of which are war crimes, as well as attacking the civilian population as reprisal.

The underlying reason for the prohibition on reprisal attacks is plain: civilians and other non-combatants should not be made to pay the price for the unlawful conduct of armed forces. The very concept of violations as reprisal must be emphatically rejected, if the goal of containing the devastation caused by war on non-combatants is ever to be achieved.

---

Isreal has existed for a little over half a century, and the US for a few hundred years.

Again, the question is, whose fault is it for the prior 3000 years that Arab or Middle east countries never developed anything worth a damn or created any sort of civilisation of value?

How about someone blame the inept people of the middle east? Oh no, wait it couldn't possibly be their faults.

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: nugganu ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by nugganu:
Hey,

Again, the question is, whose fault is it for the prior 3000 years that Arab or Middle east countries never developed anything worth a damn or created any sort of civilisation of value?

How about someone blame the inept people of the middle east? Oh no, wait it couldn't possibly be their faults.

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: nugganu ]

---

You mean besides algebra? And a few other minor details like that?

Second of all, Amnesty also said Israel was guilty of war crimes in that same conflict. However, while Hizbollah killed 163, mostly military, Israel killed well over a thousand mostly civiian.

Amnesty report accuses Israel of war crimes

And it wasn't the first time:

quote:

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Originally posted by nister:
Yeah, Peech, if only the factions would abide by the rule of law..would it be impolite to mention article 242?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Well, peech, first of all, Hizbollah are Lebanese. I know, I know, again, to you, all Arabs are the same. Lebanese, Palestinian, what's one Arab from another right? (One of your like minded fellow travelers has posted also, I see)

Second of all, Amnesty also said Israel was guilty of war crimes in that same conflict. However, while Hizbollah killed 163, mostly military, Israel killed well over a thousand mostly civiian.

Amnesty report accuses Israel of war crimes

And it wasn't the first time:

The case against the accused

---

Firstly, Hezbullah is the puppet terrorist arm of Iran aided by Syria.

Secondly the allegations against Israel (if proved) are of proportionality. In international law and the Geneva convention this is the greyest of all areas. However targeting civilians for death by ball bearing filled rockets or "suicide" (I prefer "murder") bombs IS a crime. Plain and simple and according to Amnesty's own words "not a grey area."

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Well Peech, good to see you again, and is it worth noting that all the international laws regarding "war crimes" are based on UN resolutions, so I guess they aren't the rule of law either.......

---

Wrong. They are based upon statue law.

Whereas UN resolutions are just that....statements (political) by whomever controls the club called the UN of the day. So if a majority of 3rd world and Arab states (who have the worst human rights record in the world) condemn Israel, ......those resolutions should be given the weight they deserve......precious little.

PS nice to "see" you again too Cue.

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]

PS: You are reaching by saying the Arab states have the worst human rights records in the world, on the one hand because there have been several examples of state with worse ones, and on the other because you can broadly assert that Algeria is representative of all Arab states.

You know this. Why bother with such grand and prejudicial generalizations.

Taken as a broad survey of human rights in the world, over the last century, the Arab states are about in the middle of the pack. Many Latin American countries were far worse for substantive periods of time, and other anomalies persited as well, such as Pol Pot's Cambodia and Ida Amin Dada's Uganda, not to mention Adolph Hitler's Germany and present day North Korea.

And that's just reaching into the hat and grabbing what was there sight unseen.

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Targeting civilians with rockets filled with ball bearings or suicide bombs is murder. Get used to it.

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Secondly, you obviously have not read the allegations against Israel. First become familiar with it. Deliberately targetting civilians and civilian infrastructure with phosphorous and cluster bombs is pure and simple cold blooded murder. There is no grey area according to Amnesty or any person with an actual conscience.

quote:

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Originally posted by nussy:

And what about the rockets that are still being fired daily by the Palestinians?

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What about them? They're pathetic, unguided fireworks. Chinese kids at a new years celebration pack more firepower.

To date, dozens of Qassams have killled fewer Israelis (8) than the Isralis kill on an average day in Gaza. Even Shimon Perez has urged Israelis to "just ignore them".

Qassams appear to be primarily useful against empty fields, against which they have a remarkably high success rate.

Your concern may be better saved for the Palestinian Gazans, who are regularly under bombardment by Israeli rockets, mortars, and artillery. Thier ordnance, unlike the Palestinian Qassam, is high tech, and high yield, and high casualty.

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Legless-Marine ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Legless-Marine:

Qassams appear to be primarily useful against empty fields, against which they have a remarkably high success rate.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Noise:

Agreed Peech. The best way to punish for a suicide bomber (since you can't really punish him) is to punish a million others and create another 100 suicide bombers willing to die for their cause. Fortunately for us, their all 'dumb arabs unable to create a great civilization in 3000 years' (congrats on posting the dumbest comment I've ever seen Nugganu, that almost needs to be preserved) ... So there no need to consider that something might be driving these people to kill themselves for their cause is there? Of course not, all Arabs are fundamentalist terrorists and would be doing these attacks regardless

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It's the nature of militant Islam.

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: nugganu ]

quote:

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Originally posted by jrootham:

You mean besides algebra? And a few other minor details like that?

Message to mods.

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Message to jrootham, don't be pathetic.

quote:

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Originally posted by nugganu:
Again, the question is, whose fault is it for the prior 3000 years that Arab or Middle east countries never developed anything worth a damn or created any sort of civilisation of value?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by nugganu:

Message to jrootham, don't be pathetic.

Algebra, and nothing much since.

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quote:

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Originally posted by nister:
Peech: "UN resolutions not law.."

No shit. And what law does USrael abide by?

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The law of self preservation. Despite what the enemy says they will not be pushed into the sea.

quote:

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Originally posted by nussy:
[QB]

The law of self preservation. Despite what the enemy says they will not be pushed into the sea.

---

And the Palestinians, of course, with thier homemade rockets, no army, no navy, no effective central government are a threat to do that?

If not, why does Israel treat them the way they do?

Why aren't their actions "self preservation"? Afterall, isn't it they who were ethnically cleansed from Israel, and who live under military occupation with virtually no civil rights to speak of? Why aren't they - from THAT position - justified in fighting back?

You see, if you abide by the law of the jungle, as you are, you have to stop complaining about other people getting rough with you now and then...

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by nugganu:
Hey,

"Again, the question is, whose fault is it for the prior 3000 years that Arab or Middle east countries never developed anything worth a damn or created any sort of civilisation of value?"

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: nugganu ]

---

I shouldn't really be feeding the troll, but it's worth pointing out that the Fertile Crescent is known as the "cradle of Western civilization" for a good reason, and that the last 3000 years of western civilization would be greatly impoverished were it not for the achievements of civilizations like Babylon and Sumeria and the development of monotheistic religion, the basic features of which were pioneered by Zoroastrianism around 3000 years ago.

As for Muslim civilization in particular, here are some of the things that "the West learned, took, or otherwise borrowed from the Muslims" (from Introducing Muhammad, by Ziauddin Sardar and Zafar Abbas Malik, Icon Books, 1999):

Muslims preserved and expanded upon Greek philosophy while Europe was still mired in the Dark Ages. Muslims developed the university system later used by the West. Muslims introduced the West to Arabic numerals, including "zero". They also developed algebra, trigonometry, and spherical geometry. They introduced laboratory tools, such as test tubes, flasks, and the like. They contributed to the science of optics by providing the basic laws of light. They introduced hospitals and surgical tools. They introduced bibliographical tools, such as catalogues, bibliographies, dictionaries, biographical dictionaries, thesauri, and encyclopedias. They pioneered the organization and administration of libraries, as well as requisite classification schemes. They introduced paper manufacture, as well as publishing as a mass industry and bookshops. They introduced various irrigational tools. They introduced the compass, and created an authentic map of the world. They developed a basic set of astronomical facts and laws, as well as a basic understanding of the human body and the basic "Canons of Medicine". They pioneered the development of universal history and sociology. They gave the West the guitar, as well as mensural music and measured song. Muslims also produced the first statement of animal rights.

In "The Case for Islamo-Christian Civilization" (Columbia University Press, 2004), historian Richard Bulliet writes that in the Middle Ages, "...a cornucopia of stimuli from Muslim lands transformed many aspects of European life: philosophy (commentaries on Aristotle), theology (Averroism), mathematics (Arabic numerals), chemistry (gunpowder), medicine (surgical technique), music (lute-playing, troubadour songs), literature (tales that show up in Italian works), manufacturing (glass, paper, woodblock printing), cuisine (pasta, sugar) and the enjoyment of everyday life."

These contributions look pretty impressive to me.

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Michael Nenonen ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Noise:

Agreed Peech. The best way to punish for a suicide bomber (since you can't really punish him) is to punish a million others and create another 100 suicide bombers willing to die for their cause. Fortunately for us, their all 'dumb arabs unable to create a great civilization in 3000 years' (congrats on posting the dumbest comment I've ever seen Nugganu, that almost needs to be preserved) ... So there no need to consider that something might be driving these people to kill themselves for their cause is there? Of course not, all Arabs are fundamentalist terrorists and would be doing these attacks regardless

---

I know I I am onto something when posters like you resort to personal insults.
Too bad.......because there is a kernel of something worth discussing. But you don't know what that means (discussing).

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Aren't those statuates approved through resloutions? How did they become statuates, anyway? The UN voted on them, right?

PS: You are reaching by saying the Arab states have the worst human rights records in the world, on the one hand because there have been several examples of state with worse ones, and on the other because you can broadly assert that Algeria is representative of all Arab states.

You know this. Why bother with such grand and prejudicial generalizations.

Taken as a broad survey of human rights in the world, over the last century, the Arab states are about in the middle of the pack. Many Latin American countries were far worse for substantive periods of time, and other anomalies persited as well, such as Pol Pot's Cambodia and Ida Amin Dada's Uganda, not to mention Adolph Hitler's Germany and present day North Korea.

And that's just reaching into the hat and grabbing what was there sight unseen.

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

---

1. Un Resolutions aren't law until enacted. Law = LAw.
A declaration = a declaration. UN resolution = decalration.
So if Cueball declares the moon = cheese that' not law. Capiche?

So as for grand prejudicail statements on the "human rights in the Arab world"

Hmm let's see where to start:

stoning for lessor offences,
beheading for greater (theft drugs, breach of contract, adultery) Saudi Arabia
No (ZERO ) free press and contradiction = indefinite imprisonment, (Saudi, Egypt, Syria)

And Oh BTW Syria's police force modelled after and originally trained by the SS and on and on and on

quote:

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I know I I am onto something when posters like you resort to personal insults.

Too bad.......because there is a kernel of something worth discussing. But you don't know what that means (discussing).*

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Irony people. Irony.

quote:

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Originally posted by Peech:

BTW murder for a "cause" still = murder.

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quote:

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And Oh BTW Syria's police force modelled after and originally trained by the SS and on and on and on

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Wow, so they must be hardcore antisemites just itching to round some Jews up and gas 'em, eh?

That is what you're getting at, right?

The Israeli police force was set up on the lines of the colonial British Mandate police. Not exactly auspicious beginnings. The British and their colonial exploits were, after all, responsible for untold millions of deaths the world over from deliberate violence as well as viral epidemics they brought to conquered territory.

I guess that explains Israel, because you can judge a state by the origins of its police force, right?

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

So you admit that what Israel does to many Palestinians in the name of "national security" is wrong! Maybe you do know something about discussion after all.

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quote:

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Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

Wow, so they must be hardcore antisemites just itching to round some Jews up and gas 'em, eh?

That is what you're getting at, right?

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

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Nice try. No, I mean they are repressive fascist hard line thugs.

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]

quote:

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Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

Wow, so they must be hardcore antisemites just itching to round some Jews up and gas 'em, eh?

That is what you're getting at, right?

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

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Yes some of them do...ask the Iranian president. He just wants to do it the easy way with a nuclear bomb.

Israel will not let that happen.

quote:

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Originally posted by Peech:

I would agree that the only solution for the region is a negotiated peace that provides all parties in the region with most of what they want; security, freedom,territory and the right to live unmolested. It will be a compromise in that no ne will get all that they want and by all parties I mean all countries in the region must agree and abide by it.

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You didn't answer the question. Thanks for the talking points, however.

quote:

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I know I I am onto something when posters like you resort to personal insults.

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Calling a statement the dumbest thing you've seen is a personal attack? Seriously... You are currently defending a comment like : "How about someone blame the inept people of the middle east?"

quote:

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But you don't know what that means (discussing).

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Go through your posts in this thread... You're confusing your spin as "discussion" ^^ Now if you could talk of Palestinians as a people instead of a rather large well organized and cohesive fundamentalist terrorist group, then we can have a discussion.

quote:

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It's the nature of militant Islam.

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[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

quote:

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Originally posted by nussy:
[QB]

Yes some of them do...ask the Iranian president. He just wants to do it the easy way with a nuclear bomb.

---

Ahmadenijad is moonlighting with the Syrian police?

quote:

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Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

You didn't answer the question. Thanks for the talking points, however.

ARe you going to answer the question?

---

It's like a bully blaming the kid he tried to beat up for not falling down and crying - thus making him doubt himself.

Now, the problem with this post - is that whoever this guy is making the statements is not any great leader or representative for the Arab peoples - he is just some guy that is particularly poor at presenting - and was chosen for that exact reason - as if to suggest that all Arab peoples feel that way.

Now, the real reason that the Arab peoples have failed to advance is:

1) They were ignored by the more advanced nations, pretty much up until the time that oil was discovered.

2) The Western nations quickly moved in and seized control of the oil and ensured that they got the lion's share of the profits.

3) This policy was supplemented with Western interference in Arab leadership - such that they made sure that puppet leaders existed in those nations that were quite content in granting onerous concessions to the West, in exchange for military support in repressing their people (ie Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc.)

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Peech:

I am not going to take your bait nor allow you to put words in my mouth. Find someone else to bully,ok?

---

I put no words in your mouth, I asked a question. You made the proclaimation that "murder for a cause" is still "murder". I'm asking you to use your own words to tell me whether or not that applies to Israelis killing Palestinians?

Does it?

When Israelis kill Palestinians for the "cause" of national security, is that a bad thing?

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

Ahmadenijad is moonlighting with the Syrian police?

Keep up, nussy...

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quote:

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Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:
I guess that question is too much "bullying"...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Peech:

for one...I don't find your "oh so cute" sarcasm about gassing particularly amusing. To be charitable to you (which you do not deserve) it's at best in bad taste.

---

'Tis the season. For insincerity, it seems...

Anyway, I'm not so charitable, so I won't pretend that you brought up the SS without the Holocaust kicking around in the back of your head somewhere. Nazi connections and comparisons are a no-go with your kind, except when it suits your cause. No, I'm not charitable enough to ignore that.

I also won't forget that you can't answer that Israeli "murder for a cause" is a bad thing. I'm no that charitable to people who apologise for state terror.

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

'Tis the season. For insincerity, it seems...

Anyway, I'm not so charitable, so I won't pretend that you brought up the SS without the Holocaust kicking around in the back of your head somewhere. Nazi connections and comparisons are a no-go with your kind, except when it suits your cause. No, I'm not charitable enough to ignore that.

I also won't forget that you can't answer that Israeli "murder for a cause" is a bad thing. I'm no that charitable to people who apologise for state terror.

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

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What exactly do you mean by "my kind"?

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]

Stop dishing the talking points about our imaginary anti-semitism (Honestly, how stupid do you have to be not to see that the accusations of anti-semitism levelled against critics of Israel are a very effective ploy to silence dissent, and nothing more!) and take a look in the mirror.

The world is plauged by racism and discrimination on a massive and dangerous scale, on this you are right, the target is arabs however and you, not defenders of Palestinian human rights, are the perpetrators.

quote:

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Originally posted by Socrates:
I would find it amusing, if it were not so tragically depressing, that the very same people who throw disingenous and preposterous claims of anti-semitism, new holocausts, etc. and constantly attack the repressive policies of Arab states such as Saudi (which by the way, NO supporter of Palestine will defend, these dictators have sold their people out for power and American protection) are the very same people who display the unbridled race hatred and bigotry evident in this (and many other) thread.

Stop dishing the talking points about our imaginary anti-semitism (Honestly, how stupid do you have to be not to see that the accusations of anti-semitism levelled against critics of Israel are a very effective ploy to silence dissent, and nothing more!) and take a look in the mirror.

The world is plauged by racism and discrimination on a massive and dangerous scale, on this you are right, the target is arabs however and you, not defenders of Palestinian human rights, are the perpetrators.

Seriously, mirror people

---

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Peech:

What exactly do you mean by "my kind"?

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]

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What do you suppose I mean?

How's "bad arguer". Or perhaps "disingenuous interlocutor". Or maybe "standard run of the mill flack for Israeli human rights abuses..." You brought up the SS to trash someone and when called on what the association means, you went ducking for cover behind "being hurt."

Here's a rule: If you don't want the SS discussed - and that means EVERYTHING about the SS, don't bring them up. Don't even try to pretend that you didn't bring up the SS knowing the obvious aspersions connected with them. I didn't make a joke of gassing people, I merely spelled out what you were being mealy-mouthed about. If you want the whole topic to never be mixed with the profane, then don't bring it up in a flippant way. It's a two-way street.

Anyway, you still can't condemn Israel murdering Palestinians for "a cause". Not when it's your cause, after all. Keep changing the subject, if you want. That's something else "your kind" does. But, the thread is evidence enough that your feigned impartiality is a monumental crock of reindeer sh#t.

Sorry to disappoint, but there's no antisemites under this bush. Nice try, though...

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

The fact that Syrian police were set up and trained by the SS is documented and in any event was written by me as an illustration of the fascist nature of that state not for the racist, bigotry imagery that YOU sir, chose to use.

Nor have I justified the killing of any Palestinians for any reason. Viloence begets violence. However self defence is sometimes necessary and the degree of that can be questioned.

quote:

---

s early as January 1952, the ODESSA network was in contact with "influential" Egyptian army officers and the former Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husseini, who had lived in Egypt since the fall of Nazi Germany. According to the Israeli intelligence agency MOSSAD and French intelligence files, numerous former SS officers held key positions in the secret service and political police in Egypt. These included:

SS officer, Alois Brunner, who had held senior position in Adolph Eichmann's "Jewish Department", and is now believed to be living under the protection of the Syrian secret police in Damascus;

Added to this were a number of former Nazi officials and sixty military experts, mostly former Waffen-SS men, who assisted in the training of the Egyptian army. Several of them were also linked in 1958 with the then Algerian government-in-exile. At least 200 German and Austrian scientists and other personnel were deployed in the new aircraft and missile centre at Helwan, where new staff physician was Dr. Hanns Eisele, SS Captain and medical torturer in the death camp at Buchenwald. Goodrick-Clarke says that President Gamal Abdel Nasser was "well disposed" towards the Nazis, all the more because they wished to take part in the destruction of Israel. The presence of so many Nazi's in Egypt under the Nasser regime was exposed in the world press in October 1962, and precipitated a crisis in the Israeli government (who had ordered MOSSAD to make try and kill several of the Nazi's), and embarrassment in West Germany, over the exposure of postwar Nazi collaboration with the Nasser regime.

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Post War Arab Links to the Odessa Network

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Peech:
I never riased the Holocaust, or used Nazi Imagery.

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The SS weren't Nazis? I'd say that as far as cultural memes go, the SS are used to invoke Nazism par excellance.

quote:

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The fact that Syrian police were set up and trained by the SS is documented and in any event was written by me as an illustration of the fascist nature of that state not for the racist, bigotry imagery that YOU sir, chose to use.

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So Nazism is okay to mention as long as you only mean the fascist part of it and not the racist, bigotted part of it? (Or is it the use of imagery per se you disagree with; a war on simile, perhaps?) Is there a difference between the "facist" part of the SS and the "racist bigotry" part?

If so is it okay for me to compare the IDF to Nazis - in only the fascist way, of course? Or what if I said it's clear that Israel is a colonialist state because their police force was designed after, and trained by former officers in, the British Mandate police?

Both this last argument and yours are bad, yours having the added bonus of casting antisemitic aspersions on the entire State of Syria.

quote:

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However self defence is sometimes necessary and the degree of that can be questioned.

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Yup, and I questioned you directly about the "degree of that (sic)". You still haven't answered, suggesting that you don't have the stomach to apply your own dictum "murder for a cause is still murder" to your own cause. If not, swing away...

quote:

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It's time you abandoned your "I'll throw as much shit at my opponent just to see what sticks" approach. Furthermore to put it politely your whole approach here has been just plain dishonest.

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This from a person who in a conversation about the achievements of Arab culture and about Arab antisemitism flippantly and erroneously brought up the SS (no mention of the SS or the Syrian police had been made before) but apparently only to point out the "fascism" of it all. Sure.

BTW, do you suppose the authors of that "evidence" you oh-so-earnestly linked to above meant to show connections between just the "fascist" part of the Nazis and Nasser, or the whole Nazi shootin' match, racism, bigotry, imagery, and all?

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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Originally posted by nugganu:
Hey,

Isreal has existed for a little over half a century, and the US for a few hundred years.

Again, the question is, whose fault is it for the prior 3000 years that Arab or Middle east countries never developed anything worth a damn or created any sort of civilisation of value?

How about someone blame the inept people of the middle east? Oh no, wait it couldn't possibly be their faults.

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: nugganu ]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Peech:
Secondly the allegations against Israel (if proved) are of proportionality. In international law and the Geneva convention this is the greyest of all areas.

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Wholesale mass murder of civilians is neither a grey area nor negotiable, this is racist and exemplary of the arab blood is simply worth less mentality.

nugganu the muttonhead, in response to this sarcastic statement:

quote:

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all Arabs are fundamentalist terrorists and would be doing these attacks regardless

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says:

quote:

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It's the nature of militant Islam

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and then:

quote:

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Algebra, and nothing much since.

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Plus random references to the SS, deliberate obfuscation by bringing up pro-western arab governments, calling Iran an Arab state (not racist but proof that some people need to go read a book before they open their mouths)

Also, in response to: "Wow, so they must be hardcore antisemites just itching to round some Jews up and gas 'em, eh?

That is what you're getting at, right?"

quote:

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Originally posted by nussy:

Yes some of them do...ask the Iranian president. He just wants to do it the easy way with a nuclear bomb.

Israel will not let that happen.

Never again.

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And then the cherry on the cake: your typical reversal to blame B.L. for bringing up nazis and taking an injured innocent pose and most hilarious of all, taking a random statement clearly meant to identify the opposite pole in the debate and using it to imply that your opponent was talking about your being jewish.

Man that last one kills me, must have seen at least a dozen people pull the exact same trick, what is there a school where they teach you guys this stuff? (and by "you guys" I mean supporters of Israel in case you're "confused")

quote:

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Originally posted by 500_Apples:
Middle east threads on babble tend to be such a rehash, I've lost patience with the hard-core ideological position some people take. There have actually been people in the past year who gave Iranian president Ahmadinejad the benefit of the doubt. Ideology can really blind people.

Let's not kid ourselves. Israel is not the cause of the low human development levels in Tunia, Algeria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan, et cetera. It may be in palestine, but in general, you can't just blame other countries. Following world war II, there was a vast third world (there still is). Latin America, Africa, the arab world, india, china, south east asia to name a few geographic blocks. The arab world has shown the second least progress. All regions faced western imperial bullshit but different regions reacted differently.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Peech:
Perhaps I was hasty in my conclusion. The evidence points to former members of SS being harboured by the Syrians and helping to train in Egypt. I apologize for my errors.
Post War Arab Links to the Odessa Network

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One of the SS guys who was at the Wansee conference did end up in Syria. I have no idea if he ended up working for the Syrian police. However, I am sure the Syrian are quite capable of understanding how to abuse people without the help of SS operatives.

The whole point of having overseas people train your police, is because they have access to overseas technology and money, and information sharing something which deposed SS people had no access to after the war.

Brutality is something more or less instinctive to police all over the world, so other than possibly helping a friend in need, I see no reason for the Syrians to hire an SS person in this capacity. Just what would he have to teach them? The presence of this (these?) persons in Syria is at all signifgant in terms of the behaviour of the Syrian government.

As for training the Egyptian army. A job is a job is a job. After the failure of the counter revolution in Russia, Czarist soldiers showed up in the Balkans by the horde, acting as mercenaries for hire.

Similarly, my childhood hero Buzz Burling ended up in Israel fighting in th 48 war as a Merc. This does not mean that Israel gets extra democracy points, it means Israel was looking for people who could fly Spitfires.

I guess one might be able to draw some political conclusion about Syria, but then SS people have shown up all over the world, and there is no doubt in my mind that the Bundeswehr and the German Federal police share some common membership with the SS.

Lots of SS people got light sentences, and some none at all.

Hell! The pope was in the Hitler Youth.

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by 500_Apples:
Middle east threads on babble tend to be such a rehash, I've lost patience with the hard-core ideological position some people take. There have actually been people in the past year who gave Iranian president Ahmadinejad the benefit of the doubt. Ideology can really blind people.

---

Speaking of which can you explain how it is that Amedinejad wants to exterminate all the Jews, ala Hitler, yet talks about joint elections in a future Palestinian state where Jews, Muslims and Christians will vote.

I suppose you'll maintain that that's what you were saying all along, even though it's not the same thing at all.

I don't mean to defend him because i don't particularly like him but it seems clear he hopes for a peaceful; dissolution of the Israeli state as it exists now, to be replaced by a more equitable and less racist alternative.

Most of the discussion of how he wants a seconf holocaust comes not from his statements but from neo-cons amping up the hysteria to feed the war machine.

quote:

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Originally posted by Peech:
Which brings us full circle thanks to BL Z and Soc....Israel is responsible for "everything" wrong in the Middle East..

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Yup, that's what I said...

Funny, I actually never connected Israel to problems anywhere but the Occupied Territories.

I have faith that others' reading comprehension, being superior to yours, will certainly render this thread as confirmation of something quite different.

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Peech:
Which brings us full circle thanks to BL Z and Soc....Israel is responsible for "everything" wrong in the Middle East...which is after all the topic. So thank you for proving and reinforcing the thesis.

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Well, you could always blame it on the British. That's really what it amounts to.

That and the 1919 Paris Peace conference, the "peace to end all peace," to follow "the war to end all war."

After the second war wich resulted, it was quite clever how they got rid of a whole bunch of surplus Jews in the DP camps, and then got everyone fighting each other. But I guess that's how one little Island gets to be a great big empire, don't you think?

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

Yup, that's what I said...

Funny, I actually never connected Israel to problems anywhere but the Occupied Territories.

I have faith that others' reading comprehension, being superior to yours, will certain see this thread as confirmation of something quite different.

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

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Couldn't agree more! From Lewis Carroll " A word means exactly what I intend it to mean, nothing less, nothing more". Or in this context MY words mean exactly what YOU intend them to mean whether I intend them to mean the contrary or not.Now that is "superior" comprehension. Welcome to the mad hatter's tea party! Now enjoy it!

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]

quote:

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Which brings us full circle thanks to BL Z and Soc....Israel is responsible for "everything" wrong in the Middle East..

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Yeah, I guess I just "mischaracterised" your argument... You actually meant that I didn't suggest that "Israel is responsible for "everything" wrong in the Middle East."

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

Yeah, I guess I just "mischaracterised" your argument...

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Sauce for the goose, flack.

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:
Yup, all just a big misunderstanding. No one gets you.

Sauce for the goose, flack.

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

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No misunderstanding, I get you all right, though and
your buddy Socrates:

quote:

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Quoted from Socrates:
And then the cherry on the cake: your typical reversal to blame B.L. for bringing up nazis and taking an injured innocent pose and most hilarious of all, taking a random statement clearly meant to identify the opposite pole in the debate and using it to imply that your opponent was talking about your being jewish.

Man that last one kills me, must have seen at least a dozen people pull the exact same trick, what is there a school where they teach you guys this stuff? (and by "you guys" I mean supporters of Israel in case you're "confused")

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Loud and clear.

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]

I guess me and my "buddy" can go have a celebratory drink. All in a days work.

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

Seriously now, when i saw this I almost fell off my chair laughing:

quote:

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Originally posted by Peech:

Loud and clear.

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]

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I'm pretty sure Peech is trying to use my comment about him making ludicrous accusations of anti-semitism as proof of my anti-semitism in exactly the same manner!

I take it all back, logic free doesn't begin to cover it, we are clearly already at the tea party and i fear the looking glass was some ways back.

Man, peech, you are such a wit. You really think you're some hot shit huh?

quote:

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Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:
Too late. It's like the old bit about committing adultery in your heart...

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[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Socrates:
First of all the mad hatters tea party is down the hall to the left in banter, you're in the wrong room.

C'mon B.L., the Queeen of Spades is waiting...

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Apparently, you're serving up the tea.

[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]