Today Layton responded to NATO's call for more countries to send their sons and daughters to die in Afghanistan:

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New Democrat Leader Jack Layton says calls for additional Canadian troops for Afghanistan are a sure sign the mission to combat the Taliban is in trouble.

Speaking to reporters during a break at an NDP caucus meeting in Montreal, Mr. Layton reiterated his belief Canada should pull its troops out of the strife-torn country.

He says the mission's goals are not clear, there is no exit strategy and more troops would just throw the mission further out of balance. Source

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[ 07 September 2006: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

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Gen Jones told reporters that Nato forces had expected some opposition in southern Afghanistan, but added: "We should recognise we are a little bit surprised at the level of intensity, and that the opposition in some areas are not relying on traditional hit-and-run tactics."

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FYI, non-traditional tactics (not hit and run tactics) would likely be in reference to a more cohesive fighting core, beyond what the Taliban should be able to provide... Which means the Taliban have grown in support. I would think it's coming from the opiate warlords in the region (though can't confirm)... Theres enough references out there by the Canadian military that they're no longer sure if the targets are Taliban, or are affiliated with some other group that only stands to lose with NATO occupation (read as burning poppy crops).

[ 08 September 2006: Message edited by: yote ]

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Originally posted by yote:
Some of you may not like this but layton should shut and support our troops as long as they are over there I know he likes the taliban terrorist like all good commies do,but if I remember well it was the lib government that sent them there in the first place and he no doubt supported them at that time so go ahead and ban me like al good leftist do with if you dont agree with them

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I'll admit, I haven't bothered checking with objective sources into how much support there is from the Afghans for us (the west) to be in Afghanistan. I have a hard time believing that most Afghans want us out of there. The Taliban were, & are, a bunch of terrorists & dictators. Why would any Afghan citizen who didn’t directly benefit from the Taliban regime want them back? And who’s to say that the various warlords remaining in the country (who could possibly take over in ISAF absence) are any better than the Taliban? If the Afghans want our help, I say we help them. We’re always going on & on, as Canadians, about how great we are at helping other countries, so let’s help some people. If there are better ways to help the Afghans I would like to hear them.

I'm apprehensive about pulling our troops out because they're dieing. It sounds crass I know, but soldiers are trained to fight -& possibly die. Several of our UN peacekeepers died in peacekeeping operations over the decades. I've worn the uniform, & I never had to go to war, but I was ready every minute I was in the forces. I would suspect that our troops, who are there, are also prepared to keep fighting. The war in Afghanistan isn't the war in Iraq. Certainly there are some similarities, but I believe they're very different wars.

One notes for instance that Afghanistan borders Iran on the East, and Iraq borders it on the West. However, I don't think an absolute parallel is useful.

I was reading some other posts in a related forum & I can understand peoples' frustration (& disgust) with the fact that the Afghan mission has changed drastically from the one we undertook five years ago.

So what other options are there for Canadians to pursue in supporting "emerging" democracies & helping people to achieve freedom?

[ 08 September 2006: Message edited by: 2 ponies ]

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Well first of all I think we have to respect the right of self determination of peoples, and that means that we have to allow them to create their own governments, based in power strcutures and traditions that have legitimacy in the eyes of the people.

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http://www.ndp.ca/page/4121

Would the US Democratic Party do such a thing?

Hang on. . . .

Just went here: http://www.democrats.org/

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Originally posted by Américain Égalitaire:
Hey, did'ja see the new banner on babble?

http://www.ndp.ca/page/4121

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Originally posted by 500_Apples:
Cueball wrote:

One of the first political lessons of my life was in elementary schools for holocaust education. They would mention how allied bombers would freely fly over concentration camps, but would never bomb the rails, thereby slowing the killing. In the eyes of some, this non-action was as bad as the Nazi actions.

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The NDP’s position — which was first announced by federal NDP leader Jack Layton in late August and endorsed by the party’s federal convention last weekend — has nothing to do with a principled opposition to the occupation of Afghanistan or Canadian imperialism.

Initially Layton said he wanted the troops only withdrawn by next February so as not to undermine the efforts of Canada’s NATO partners. Now he and the NDP are saying that they CAF contingent in Kandahar should be withdrawn as soon as it is “safe” to do so, while reiterating that they want Canadian troops to remain in Kabul and that they support the Karzai government.

The NDP’s attacks on the CAF deployment are laced with Canadian nationalist appeals and pledges that the social democrats are ready to support the deployment of the CAF to wage wars overseas. According to the NDP, this mission is just “the wrong one for Canada;” the troops are not properly equipped; the mission is ill-defined; there is no exit strategy; the ability of Canada to assert its interests in the world is being undermined by Harper’s policy of tying Canada so closely to US foreign policy. If the troops are withdrawn, the NDP argues, Canada will be able to deploy troops in other imperialist-sanctioned peace-keeping missions, like in Lebanon or Haiti.

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That said, there is a disturbing ambiguity in Layton’s position. In the official release on the NDP web site, his position is summarized as calling for “withdrawal of Canadian troops from the counter-insurgency mission in southern Afghanistan. Troop withdrawal should begin as soon as possible and be complete by February 2007”.

Is the only part of Canada’s mission that is wrong, the “counter-insurgency mission in southern Afghanistan?” Is the implication here that Canadian troops should pull out of Kandahar, but stay in Kabul?

Hopefully, the NDP delegates will vote for a resolution that unambiguously calls for troops out of all of Afghanistan.

The problem with Canada’s role is not this one, particular, mission in one part of the country. The whole project is completely embedded in George Bush’s “war on terror”. The US empire is looking to secure the Middle East and Central Asia and their vast energy resources, as part of its “grand strategy of empire” (see centre pages). Any Canadian participation in this scheme, whether in Kandahar or Kabul, makes us complicit in US imperialism.

And there is another problem.

Many at the top of the NDP believe fervently that Canadian troops can play a “peacekeeping” role in other places in the world.

There are pressures on Canada to provide troops to a mission in Darfur.

There might well be pressures on Canada to provide troops to a “peacekeeping” force in Lebanon.

We need to resist all such calls.

Look no further than the horrific torture and murder of Shidane Arone during the Canadian “peacekeeping” occupation of Somalia, to know that Canadian peacekeeping is simply imperialism with a maple fig leaf.

Canada can play a role on the international stage.

- Massively increase aid to the impoverished developing world, and untie that aid from Canadian trade – make it aid with no strings.

- Join the movement to cancel the debt of the impoverished developing world.

- Finance aid and debt relief by steady and systematic reduction in military expenditures

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If the Taleban gain enough support among Afghans, they will be back.

It's not us, but Afghans who will do the "handing back".

Even if the Taleban never wins majority support, Afghanistan will never be a workable democracy; at least not in our lifetimes. Three years after our troops inevitably leave, they'll be back as they have been for the past ten centuries.

They are no more likely to form a democratic republic than they were to form a Soviet Republic.

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Originally posted by Cueball:

Well you had really terrible teachers. That is all I can say about that, other than the allied forces had to make numerous decisions about what issues to apply manpower and resources too, and saving the lives of non-combatant victims of Nazi policy was not te bigest priority of any of the allied powers, when actually winning the war was the priority,

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Originally posted by Liberaler:
Layton must be smoking something! Does he know what will happen to Afghanistan if our troops pulled out? Thank goodness he isn't PM

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I'm pretty sure there were people saying the same thing to President Najibullah in 1989 before the start of an exodus of Soviet troops and tens of thousands of Afghani refugees.

The thing of it is, Canadian troops aren't just fighting the Taliban. Like the Soviet experience, they are fighting a proxy war. There are several different minority ethnic groups in Afghanistan who curry favour with religious groups in surrounding countries. Canadian tanks and heavy artillery are deployed now, and if this thing escalates, millions of proxy fighters will go pouring in over the borders. Our guys will begin coming home to their families wrapped in plastic by the dozens. Martin and Harper are supreme fuckups for getting us involved. Our guys are already taking this way too seriously - last week they sent 135 Vingt "Doos" over there.

[ 20 September 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

I am serious. What does their spanking shiny new Afghanistan look like after the Canadians, having vanquished the resistance, load the last box of timbits on the C-17, turn around to shake the president's hand and say: "Well, that just aboot does it. She's all yers, b'y, good luck, eh."?

If you can answer that without invoking the "little girls go to school" mantra, then you win a cookie.

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Layton must be smoking something! Does he know what will happen to Afghanistan if our troops pulled out? Thank goodness he isn't PM

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Taking down these types of lies and brainwashing is getting to be a full-time profession around here.

This is based on a post in a related thread:

Hold on a minute here, smart guy. Just where do you get this idea that the NDP supports "giving Afghanistan back to the Taliban," and that Canada' pull-out of the military mission will make this happen? From the National Post?

The fact is, according to the US government’s own tacit admission, the fraudulent new regime in Afghanistan, that Canadian troops are supposedly fighting to protect, is made up mainly of the same type of Taliban-like warlords that we’re supposedly fighting against. The only difference is the ones in the new government have cut their own deals with the US government.

Check out the US government sources, some quoted right on the CBC, Canada’s state capitalist propaganda agency for whatever federal government we get stuck with.

[URL] http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/2006/200603/20060308.html[/URL]

And from Z Magazine, a US-based non-corporate independent mag

[URL]
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=40&ItemID=9268[/URL]

And here, CSND, is what is now being called “freedom” and “stability” that the troops are supposedly fighting for:

Opium farmers sell daughters to cover debts to traffickers
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article316683.ece

Escalating violence has roots beyond Taliban
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20060117/AFGH

Looking for answers? Follow the money
http://www.rabble.ca/politics.shtml?sh_itm=32c52e6864b5a561cf98909de9c8d359&rXn=1&Rabble.ca

Afghans drug lords keep profits home
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1104AP_Afghan_Drug_Money.html

Drug trade 'reaches to Afghan cabinet'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/05/wafg05.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/02/05/ixworld.html

Detestable murderers and scumbags
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=40&ItemID=9268

Yep, that’s “freedom” according to the Bush Reich/Corporate America and their little gandi-dancing brown-noser Stevie Harponic: Drug Lord profits, getting a new pipeline and securing yet another fraudulent democracy-suppressing fascist regime.

And who says if Canada pulls out, the Taliban will take over, especially since the Taliban barely controls a fifth of the country, with a vast majority of the warring factions opposed to it. Even when the Taliban was the US government’s puppet regime, it still didn’t control the whole country (actually it only held power in about two-thirds of it at its peak in the mid-1990s).

SO all that will happen is that it will just keep descending further into civil war, which it is doing at break-speed now, and Canada’s military has not done a thing to stop it, according to UN observers.