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Author Topic: Join Unions Or Make Your Own?
Aristotleded24
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posted 29 November 2005 07:39 PM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Are there any instances of workers organising not under the banner of an existing union but under their own new one? Which of the 2 is easier? What issues are there with workers joining already "big" unions?

I'm asking because if I was working somewhere and an existing union tried to get me to sign up, I'd be hesitant. If there was a drive among the workers to start a new union however, I'd be fully supportive of such an initiative. Every time I've asked local labour leaders about this issue, they've never answered the question and have turned the answer back into the direction of joining an already existing one. This raises questions in my mind about what some union leaders are really after WRT organising workers.

Any thoughts on this topic?


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
beaver
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posted 29 November 2005 09:01 PM      Profile for beaver     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I'm asking because if I was working somewhere and an existing union tried to get me to sign up, I'd be hesitant. If there was a drive among the workers to start a new union however, I'd be fully supportive of such an initiative. Every time I've asked local labour leaders about this issue, they've never answered the question and have turned the answer back into the direction of joining an already existing one. This raises questions in my mind about what some union leaders are really after WRT organising workers.


There are a lot of problems whether a large union is joined, or whether a small union is formed.

The big unions are always recruiting members. The problems occur when they accept their dues and then don't represent the workers, whether through a conflict of interest or a complete lack of giving a shit. If the union doesn't make enough income in dues from a small group of workers are they really going to pay an experienced official and a team of lawyers to fly out to the location and defend an employee or negotiate an agreement? If the interests of a smaller group of members directly or indirectly conflicts with the interests of a larger group who will the union support?

The problem with starting your own union is you simply can't get the lobbying power of the big ones. You can't get the capital together to hire lawyers when you need them, or to pay your officials. Not many employees, no matter how well intentioned, want to volunteer hours of their time in a thankless and unpaid position helping their co-workers figure out their pay cheque or fight an unfair practice. It also takes a lot of brains and experience to deal with big employers. You can't have "Joe Shmo" bargaining with the Labor Relations Department. Without the know-how someone's gonna get shot in the foot, and it probably won't be the employer.

So if you want to start your own union you'd better be prepared to put in a lot of unpaid and unappreciated work and get ready for a steep learning curve. If you join a big one you'd better be prepared to fight with your union almost as much as you fight with your employer.

[ 29 November 2005: Message edited by: beaver ]


From: here and there | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
radiorahim
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posted 29 November 2005 10:57 PM      Profile for radiorahim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I would agree that forming your own union is a very difficult task.

However I'm not quite as cynical about joining an existing union. I find often that folks might have a negative experience with one particular union over an issue and then lay claim that every union does the same thing.

If you're thinking about organizing a union, talk to a number of different unions. Find out what experience a union has in organizing folks in your work sector. What have been their successes? What have been their failures?

Talk to other members of unions who work in your sector and ask about their experiences.

Look at the internal structure of the various unions. Find out what unions give you the most influence in terms of internal union governance.

If a particular union is already on your doorstep and you don't have a union now...sign the card.

Quite frankly, I'd rather have the worst union in the world than no union at all.

Being covered by a collective agreement changes everything in terms of your relationship with the employer. You'll have rights...real rights that are enforceable.

When you're covered by a collective agreement you have access to the grievance/arbitration system. It isn't a perfect system by any means. But it means that your employer can't fire you without proving "just cause" to an arbitrator...and there's a 50-60 year history of case law around what constitutes "just cause".

If you aren't covered by a collective agreement you have no access to this system at all. Sure, you can try to sue your employer...but good luck trying to afford a lawyer when you're unemployed.

In theory, according to the law you have the right to refuse unsafe work. Try exercising that right in a non-union workplace. It'll get you fired.

The only way to enforce labour laws...especially occupational health and safety laws is if you've got a union. If you think the government will enforce health and safety laws you're dreaming in technicolor. In every jurisdiction in Canada, there aren't and never will be enough workplace health and safety inspectors to handle the job.

Another thing...most unions have internal membership education programmes. You'll learn stuff in union education programmes that you won't learn anywhere else.

You'll learn about how to be a union steward so that you can enforce the collective agreement in the workplace. You'll learn about negotiating collective agreements with your employer, health and safety etc. The really good unions also do education programmes on fighting racism, sexism, heterosexism, about political economy and globalization, international solidarity...you name it. The better the union, the better the member education programmes.

In this world nothing is perfect. But if we wait till everything is perfect before we act, we'll never accomplish anything. So join the union and welcome to the fight!


From: a Micro$oft-free computer | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
beaver
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posted 29 November 2005 11:54 PM      Profile for beaver     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The only way to enforce labour laws...especially occupational health and safety laws is if you've got a union.

I disagree. Labour Canada, the provincial labour standards boards and worker's compensation boards are usually very interested and can be helpful if someone is denied their right to refuse unsafe work. They are usually interested and helpful in correcting unsafe working conditions. There are government bodies that are helpful in privacy, harassment, and discrimination cases as well. Quite often the only thing a union does for their member is access these services on their behalf.

Maybe the union plays a part in the educational aspect. Non-union employees are often ignorant of their rights and their employers are usually thrilled to keep them unenlightened. (There are two neighborhood men working on my roof right now in deplorably unsafe conditions, paid by the landlord in cash, and not seeming to mind one bit.) On the other hand most unions are pretty good at keeping their employees informed about government legislation/regulations and they encourage their members to enforce them.

I'm not saying that you couldn't lose your job over such an issue, but that happens in unionized workplaces too. The difference is that unionized workers (ideally) have someone to advocate for them in this situation. If you're non-unionized you have to do it yourself.

I do (most days) agree with you on this:

quote:
Quite frankly, I'd rather have the worst union in the world than no union at all.



From: here and there | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
radiorahim
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posted 30 November 2005 02:08 AM      Profile for radiorahim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I do (most days) agree with you on this:

I know what you mean. I've belonged to two different unions over the years and have had internal fights with both of them. But its been more like a "family argument"...sometimes nasty at times...but ultimately the idea is that we're all in the same boat and pretty much have the same ultimate objectives. We're more arguing about how to get there. And hell...at least we have the luxury of getting to have those "family arguments:

In a non-union situation, you're basically at the mercy of the employer...and I don't share your confidence in the government's ability to protect workers.

There was a long fight recently in Toronto...that's still going on I believe...about a trendy pizza joint that's refusing to pay workers wages...keeps giving them "rubber cheques" and the Ontario Ministry of Labour has done diddly-squat about it.


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slimpikins
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posted 03 December 2005 02:00 AM      Profile for slimpikins     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If you are unsure about weither to join an existing Union or to start your own, smaller union, here are some options.

1. You could start your own union and have a service agreement with a larger union. What that means is that you run the day to day stuff, and a portion of your dues are paid to the large union. In exchange, they will do certain things, like help bargain a contract, handle arbitration costs, train stewards, or pretty much whatever you want to put in the agreement. However, most large unions will enter into a service agreement with the ultimate aim of merging with your small union. This isn't entirely a bad thing, because it means that they will work their asses off for you to try and 'woo' you. Also, if you have a strike or a lockout, then you will be on your own as far a strike pay is concerned. And a small local ususally has a small bank account, so the strike pay will be meager and will be gone pretty fast.

2. You could organize yourselves and then contact some established unions and ask what they have to offer you. Sign everyone up with a petition, elect a few leaders to meet with the big unions. Ask them some questions, like what will you do for us, how often will we see a rep, how will you train stewards, read the constitution, ask any questions that come to your mind. If you think that they aren't on the same page as you, keep looking until you find the best fit. A union that has an office in your area already will probably be better able to service your members, as the staff are in place already and you can just deal with them at the already established office. Tell them that you expect pretty good service because they won't have to expend any resources organizing, because you already have the majority signed up and it's pretty much a done deal. One advantage to this type of organizing is that most employers will not start a serious anti union campaign because they don't take it seriously unless there is a big Union involved from the get go.

Generally, the more autonomous the individual locals are, the better the Union. With apologies to my Teamster friends, they aren't as grass roots as I like. My own Union, UFCW, has several excellent locals, as well as some that I would question. The Service Employees International Union comes highly reccomended, although I don't have any experience with them.

If you are going to go it on your own, I would suggest reading 'The troublemakers handbook', both 1 and 2. They have excellent chapters on organizing, contract negotiations, solidarity building, etc. I use them on a daily basis. Also, retain the services of a good lawyer. Some will give you a deal on the organizing legal work if you make noises like you will be loyal to them in the future.


From: Alberta | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Thrasymachus
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posted 03 December 2005 07:17 AM      Profile for Thrasymachus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
If the union doesn't make enough income in dues from a small group of workers are they really going to pay an experienced official and a team of lawyers to fly out to the location and defend an employee or negotiate an agreement?

You'd be surprised how much unions do spend on low dues groups. It's not a business, it's political organization. It's number of bodies that count not dollars. That being said I think that the real impediment is at the organizing stage. A lot of unions shut out or limit the number of potential new locals that will drain the coffers of the union. But my experience has been, once you're in, you're in.


From: South of Hull | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
beaver
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posted 03 December 2005 03:28 PM      Profile for beaver     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
It's number of bodies that count not dollars.

Perhaps with some unions, but I think your statement is a little bit idealistic. And doesn't the number of bodies correlate directly with the amount of money?

The larger the union the more competing interests will be involved. I belong to a large multi-national union as a member of a small local.

The agreements are made for the greatest number of members and the smaller interests are ignored.

The actual work on the local level is done by unpaid local people, yet we send the International $100 odd dollars a month. For what?

Admittedly our wages are pretty good but our health care has massive discrepancies compared to that of other locals and no one seems to care, because we don't bring in enough income to make it worth their while to care.

Maybe I'm expressing personal frustration from a unique situation. But when a fellow employee suggests we move to another union I can't help but feel cynical. Someone else to take our money and do nothing? Thanks, but no thanks.


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radiorahim
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posted 05 December 2005 01:06 AM      Profile for radiorahim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The actual work on the local level is done by unpaid local people, yet we send the International $100 odd dollars a month. For what?

You didn't mention how many workers were involved but that sounds downright cheap!

I don't know what union you belong to but I would assume that money would go into the international strike fund which is very important if some year negotiations with your employer go sour and you end up in a strike situation.

As for your healthcare benefits ultimately you get to vote to ratify your collective agreements and if you think the contract is inadequate you can always vote "no"...and as a member push to make improvements in health benefits a major issue in the next round of bargaining.

Ultimately as another poster mentioned unions are political organizations that respond to member pressure. Many union members treat their union like an insurance company that they pay "premiums" to in order to get protection from the boss.

It isn't that way...you have to get involved and active.

At the first local union meeting I ever went to they made me a shop steward...at the next meeting they elected me to the local union executive.


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beaver
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posted 05 December 2005 11:53 PM      Profile for beaver     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
you have to get involved and active.


That's ultimately my point. Whether you want to form a union or join one you should be prepared to get your hands dirty. It's a thankless job. How much of an uphill battle you have will depend on the situation, the union and to some extent on the workers.

My own union situation is quite unique and that probably accounts for a lot of the bitterness interwoven with my posts.


From: here and there | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
slimpikins
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posted 06 December 2005 03:36 AM      Profile for slimpikins     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No Union that I have ever been a part of has ever turned away a small unit. Although most Unions will aggressively go after large units because it is a more efficient use of organizing funds, small units are relatively cheap to organize. It doesn't take very long for an organizer to talk to all the workers and gauge the support for the Union, and even less time to sign everyone up and make the application.

Generally, if you are a small unit you should look for a local that has an office nearby, so that you can get the level of service that you need. If there is an already established office nearby, then there is no need to 'fly out' negotiators, lawyers, etc. My Union generally uses the local rep for bargaining, bringing in the lawyer only if needed, with the rest of the bargaining committee selected by the workers from among themselves.

If anyone thinks that Unions organize with an eye for the dues money that will come in, may I remind everyone about the Lakeside Packers campaign by UFCW Local 401, taking about 10 years and costing millions. The first dues have been deducted from the workers paychecks, 6 bucks a week. It will take 25 years with no arbitrations or disputes to break even, and given Tyson's track record that seems highly unlikely. More probably the people that helped organize and win a collective agreement will be dead by the time that organizing drive pays for itself through dues. However, it was an extremely important organizing drive for all workers in the industry, and anyone who works for a huge multinational that thinks it is above the law.


From: Alberta | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 07 December 2005 02:28 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Corporations know that the average hold-out period for a worker during a strike is about three months. Some European governments once demonstrated that elected feds with backbone had the power to say to a company: Keep the work going, no stock piling of product and no unpaid overtime, or we'll nationalise your asses. Worked like a charm.

Multinationals are working examples of central planning. Unions of similar proportions are needed in this whole coercive relationship between labour and capital. If big is good for them, then it should be good for the workers, too. United we stand. Divided we fall.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Anarchonostic
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posted 09 December 2005 02:34 PM      Profile for Anarchonostic     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It would be nice if there was a umbrella labour organization that would help small shops set up their own union without the ultimate aim of swallowing them up into the larger organization. Less involvement than the service agreement mentioned above - instead an emphasis on providing (non-monetary) resources and education to the employees. So no importing of organizers, instead training the actual members to organize. Does such an organization exist?

Hey slim, where can I get a copy of "The Troublemakers' Handbook"? I can't find it through the library catalogue, maybe I'll try my local 'commie' bookstore (this is a plug - Spartacus Books, newly risen from the ashes, literally, right next door to the old location, on Hastings in Vancouver - endplug).

[ 09 December 2005: Message edited by: Anarchonostic ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 09 December 2005 02:37 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not that the CSN is perfect, but each local union owns its own certification, while enjoying the protection and strength of an umbrella group.

Wasn't the small labour confederation Madeleine Parent founded organised along similar lines?

And then there is the IWW...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged

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