Thank goodness the Forces Of Justice And Righteousness bombed the hell out of Afghanistan in order to save all the women and children there! Thank goodness for The War Against Terror (TWAT)! Thanks to The Coalition Of The Willing, Afghan women and children have been freed! That was the reason we went in, right? Isn't that what all the right-wing warmongerers were telling us lefties, that we don't give a damn about Afghan women and children and that's why we don't want the US to bomb them back to the stone age?

But they - oh, they care! They care deeply about women and children, and that's why they stopped the Taliban from oppressing them by getting the Northern Alliance to oppress them instead (remember that?). But the Taliban have been regrouping and are gaining strength so that they can kill female children who are going to school.

Yes, thank God for the troops! Support our troops! They killed thousands and thousands of Afghans for what? Oh right, for The War Against Terror. Yes, they certainly are winning that war, aren't they?

quote:

---

With their teacher absent, 10 students were allowed to leave school early. These were the girls the gunmen saw first, 10 easy targets walking hand-in-hand through the blue metal gate and on to the winding dirt road.

The staccato of machine-gun fire pelted through the stillness. A 13-year-old named Shukria was hit in the arm and the back, and then teetered into the soft brown of an adjacent wheat field. Zarmina, her 12-year-old sister, ran to her side, listening to the wounded girl’s precious breath and trying to help her stand.

But Shukria was too heavy to lift, and the two gunmen, sitting astride a single motorbike, sped closer.

As Zarmina scurried away, the men took a more studied aim at those they already had shot, killing Shukria with bullets to her stomach and heart. Then the attackers seemed to succumb to the frenzy they had begun, forsaking the motorbike and fleeing on foot in a panic, two bobbing heads — one tucked into a helmet, the other swaddled by a handkerchief — vanishing amid the earthen color of the wheat.

Six students were shot here on the afternoon of June 12, two of them fatally. The Qalai Sayedan School — considered among the very best in the central Afghan province of Logar — reopened only last weekend, but even with Kalashnikov-toting guards at the gate, only a quarter of the 1,600 students have dared to return.

---

Do those goddamn Taliban have any idea how much those suckers COST!!!???

Two Canadian soldiers injured by roadside bomb

quote:

---

Two Canadian soldiers were injured Tuesday night by a roadside bomb 25 kilometres outside Kandahar City.

A Leopard tank travelling as the last vehicle in a convoy hit an improvised explosive device, or IED, at 8 p.m. local time, said military spokesman Lt. John Nethercott.

The convoy was then ambushed by small arms fire as it travelled east on a major highway in the region. [...]

On Monday, another Leopard tank was struck by an anti-tank mine en route to a police checkpoint. There were no injuries.

Over the weekend, a suicide bomber rammed into a light armoured vehicle just outside Kandahar City, sending four soldiers to hospital.

All four are expected to recover.

On July 4, six Canadian soldiers were killed when their RG-31 armoured vehicle hit a massive roadside bomb which engineers said was the largest they'd seen since arriving in Afghanistan.

---

Sheesh. How the hell are we supposed to get any Provincial Reconstruction done??

quote:

---

[Recently killed] Capt. [Matthew] Dawe's father, Peter, said that despite previous media reports, his son was not losing hope in Canada's mission to Afghanistan. Rather, he said that Capt. Dawe was frustrated and angry when a roadside bomb killed three soldiers under his command on June 20. They were in an area that Canadian troops believed was secure.

His father described the mission as a "guerrilla war" against enemies who are often "farmers by day and Taliban or killers by night."

"You really don't know who your enemy is," he said.

---

quote:

---

Nato troops plunged into a vicious new round of fighting with the Taliban yesterday as hundreds of Afghan civilians fled their homes in villages around Kandahar. The violence, in which about 50 militants reportedly died, again underscored how insecure and ungovernable large tracts of the south and east remain six years after "victory in Kabul".

The impact of the continuing bloodshed, said to be the worst since 2001, is being felt far beyond the battlefields of Kandahar, Helmand and Uruzgan. Simmering tensions between Nato members over "burden-sharing" are bubbling to the surface in Berlin, Washington and London. All agree the alliance's mission is under-resourced and under-funded; none has a ready answer to the problem.

Despite a steady escalation of force levels from about 5,000 in 2003 to more than 40,000 today, the fight grows ever more desperate. The possibility of military failure, previously unthinkable, is now openly discussed. Few deny that Nato's first and biggest operation outside Europe is in trouble. According to a senior European diplomat, the alliance's cohesion and credibility is increasingly on the line.
....
Adding to the gloom, US research suggests the number of Afghans supporting a return to Taliban rule has doubled, to 15%.

Nato's difficulties extend far beyond the Taliban resurgence and burden-sharing disputes. Senior commanders stress military might alone cannot prevail in Afghanistan. But diplomats say the long-term strategy and the inter-agency coordination required to deliver political stability, economic recovery and reliable services are lacking. Nor, despite billions already disbursed, is there nearly enough money.

---

quote:

---

Six students were shot here on the afternoon of June 12, two of them fatally. The Qalai Sayedan School — considered among the very best in the central Afghan province of Logar — reopened only last weekend, but even with Kalashnikov-toting guards at the gate, only a quarter of the 1,600 students have dared to return.

---

Michelle, do I sense some smug satisfaction from you at this news?

I've always wondered how progressive feminists can square positions on 1) the rights of girls to be educated without getting shot with 2) demands to "stop the war" and thus abandon them to medieval misogynists.

You seem to like to speak for people? What is up with that. Speaking for Afghan's then telling Michell what she thinks, what you think she finds satisfying, etc.

Why don't you speak for yourself, as opposed to playing amateur telepath.

[ 02 November 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

As to Michelle's thinking, I certainly may be wrong. I have invited her to respond as to how progressive feminists can square positions on 1) the rights of girls to be educated without getting shot with 2) demands to "stop the war" and thus abandon them to medieval misogynists.

Care to share your thoughts on this Cueball?

[ 02 November 2007: Message edited by: moderation ]

quote:

---

Michelle, do I sense some smug satisfaction from you at this news?

---

What the fuck is this then? You suggesting that Michelle likes hearing about people getting killed?

Suggesting that another poster takes satisfaction in the murder of children would be contrary to policy, and will make for a short stay here.

It would appear, moderation, that your understanding of the events in the unfortunate and beleaguered country of Afghanistan is somewhat shallow, and I suspect over influenced by main stream media. Neither Michelle, nor anyone else around here owes you an explanation for your twisted interpretation of their comments.

quote:

---

I've always wondered how progressive feminists can square positions on 1) the rights of girls to be educated without getting shot with 2) demands to "stop the war" and thus abandon them to medieval misogynists.

---

I've always wondered how this board attracts trolls that are convinced only option to handle above must be an invasion with the subsequent occupation. How can you justify the best way to avoid 'abandon(ing) them to medieval misogynists' being a bombing campaign that has indiscrimantly caused civilian casualties on multiple occasions?

I didn't mean the smugness was directed at the death of girls, but the "losing of the war" as the post is titled.

Sorry for the miscommunication.

Cueball,

quote:

---

51% of Afghani's want us to stay. That tells me we're accomplishing something.

---

Not so:

quote:

---

The Ottawa-based research company oversaw the Sept. 17-24 survey of 1,578 Afghans, whom pollsters from the Afghan Centre for Social and Opinion Research interviewed in their homes throughout the country's 34 provinces

---

Did you miss this part of the article?

quote:

---

In the troubled southern province of Kandahar, where the former Taliban government has its roots and where the vast majority of Canadian troops are based, only 31 per cent of respondents want to see foreign troops stick around until stability is restored. In comparison, 32 per cent of those asked would like to see the troops gone within a year, and many had no opinion at all.

A full 60 per cent of those surveyed in Kandahar have a somewhat or very positive attitude toward Canada's soldiers. Those with a negative opinion cite civilian casualties and the fact that they see the soldiers as infidels.

---

Most of the positive that the see in us being there tends to be a balance to the American forces there.

It's not an overwhleming majority Moderation... Don't pretend it is. If 51% of the people willing to answer us say it helps, and 49% want us out (and the margin of error is 2.5)... Which side to you beleive?

[ 02 November 2007: Message edited by: Noise ]

All of these indicate we are accomplishing something for at least some people in Afghanistan.

quote:

---

Originally posted by moderation:
old goat,

I didn't mean the smugness was directed at the death of girls, but the "losing of the war" as the post is titled.

Sorry for the miscommunication.

Cueball,

51% of Afghani's want us to stay. That tells me we're accomplishing something.

---

Listen dude. Any competent social scientist will tell you that coming up with a serious survey of opinions in a war zone is nearly impossible. It not like you can simply phone up Pashtu tribes people and ask them questions. And that is only a logistics problem.

Frankly if 51% of all Afghans surveyed said they wanted us to stay, I think it indicates that likely the numbers are far less than that, given that numerous Pashtu tribal areas would not be inlcuded in the survey.

I am also concerned about our arming of the Afghan Army. In a country made up of regional leaders who have their own private militias, loyal to them, we are creating a serious imbalance by training and arming what is basically Hamed Karzai's milita. The trouble with Karzai is that he is not naturally or historically one of the regional or ethnic leaders in the country like the late Masoud Shah, the psychopathic Rashid Dostum, or the ambitious Berhannudin Rabbani, who would like his old job back. Karzai has always fronted for others, including the Taliban regime, mainly due to his diplomatic experience.

So assuming NATO doesn't stay forever, where are these soldiers loyalties going to take them? My concern is that some numbers may end up with the likes of Dostum, an ethnic Uzbek IIRC, who's solution to dealing with the southern Pashtun population sounds a lot like genocide. (Just to remind you moderation, he's one of the good guys on our side)

Afghanistan has worked best as a country when there was some balance of power and influence among it's constituant peoples, and they were free to work stuff out among themselves without outside influence.

[ 02 November 2007: Message edited by: oldgoat ]

quote:

---

I am also concerned about our arming of the Afghan Army. In a country made up of regional leaders who have their own private militias, loyal to them, we are creating a serious imbalance by training and arming what is basically Hamed Karzai's milita.

---

Very good point, we're basically supporting one warlord (group of warlords) over the others and trying to unify them through force.

quote:

---

Originally posted by moderation:
51% of Afghani's want us to stay.

---

It said 51% thought their country was headed in the "right direction".

If you had read beyond the headlines, you would have seen that 43%, in response to a loaded question, pronounced themselves in favour of the foreign troops staying in Afghanistan for "however long it takes to defeat the Taliban and return order," whatever that means. 52% wanted the foreign forces to leave immediately or within various deadlines of up to five years.

Thomas Walkom pointed out that the poll did not find that a majority of Afghans want foreign troops to stay and fight:

quote:

---

It did find that a majority of those polled approved of the "presence of foreign countries" in Afghanistan.

But that term "presence" included everything foreigners are doing in the country, from aid to business to soldiering.

In Kandahar, for instance, India was rated more highly than Canada. But, as the survey notes, India's main contribution there is not troops but goods and entrepreneurs.....

Assuming that it is possible to carry out a scientific poll in a country wracked by civil war, what then does this survey tell us?

---

ETA: Why Are We Fighting in Afghanistan?

[ 12 November 2007: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

The article basically says that the Afghans are starting to use weapons which are able to take out some of our more well protected vehicles. The authors and their technical expert derive some comfort from the fact that it appears as though most of the new and potent explosive devices seem to be caught before they go off and rip up the poor Canadian bastards and their vehicles.

You know, I recently read a story about the young lad who served as the inspiration for John McCrae's famous poem "In Flanders Fields," and from what we can tell, it appears as though Alexis Helmer likely suffered a similar fate as these folks may have. They said that a cannon shell landed directly on him and that they had to gather him up in burlap bags. When they buried him, supposedly they arranged the burlap bags in a way that resembled the humany body's form.

The number of soldiers wounded badly enough to require repatriation to Canada this year is likely to exceed last year's total:

quote:

---

During the first eight months of this year, 108 members of the Canadian Forces became eligible for the allowance that is given to wounded military personnel who lose their danger pay because their injuries require them to be removed from the war zone.

When the danger-pay substitute, called the Allowance for Loss of Operational Allowance, was introduced on Dec. 15, 2006, then-defence-minister Gordon O'Connor said he expected 115 soldiers would receive it as a result of injuries in 2006.

So the 2007 tally of 108 by Sept. 1 - obtained by The Globe and Mail using Access to Information legislation - was just seven shy of the number reached in mid-December of last year. And published reports suggest many have been injured since the end of August.
Globe article four days ago

---

quote:

---

Troops fired into the engine of a vehicle as it approached a Canadian roadblock around noon yesterday near the Pashmul area, about 25 kilometres west of Kandahar city. The vehicle refused to stop as soldiers from the Kandahar Provincial Reconstruction Team were closing Highway 1, the main route through the province, because of an earlier suicide blast, a military official said.

"As the KPRT crew was establishing a cordon, they were involved in an escalation of force when a civilian vehicle sped toward the cordon and did not obey hand signals," Captain Josee Bilodeau, a military spokeswoman, said.

The soldiers initially confirmed that nobody was injured by the shooting, she said, but injured Afghans later arrived at the downtown Mirwais Hospital, saying they had been shot by Canadians.

Relatives at the hospital said Mohammed Tahir, about 30 years old, died of his wounds later in the day. Another man of about the same age, Abdullah Jan, remains in hospital.

---

[ 31 January 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

Some excerpts:

quote:

---

Insurgent attacks have climbed sharply in Kandahar and across the country....

The United Nations's count of security incidents in Afghanistan last year climbed to 13 times the number recorded in 2003, and the UN forecasts even worse this year. The North Atlantic Treaty Organization says insurgent attacks increased 64 per cent from 2006 to 2007. In the first two months of this year, some analysts have noticed a 15- to 20-per-cent rise in insurgent activity compared with the same period last year, raising alarm about whether the traditional spring fighting season has started early....

"Make no mistake, NATO is not winning in Afghanistan," concluded the Atlantic Council of the United States, a prestigious American think tank that deals with international affairs....

In a blunt assessment this week, Vice-Admiral Michael McConnell, the U.S. intelligence czar, admitted that the Karzai government controls less than one-third of the country. The Taliban hold 10 per cent on a more-or-less permanent basis while the rest is run by local warlords, he said, describing the situation as deteriorating....

The increases in bloodshed have been dramatic: Last year, more than 6,500 people, most of them ordinary Afghans, were killed in the violence, as compared with roughly 4,000 in 2006, and 1,000 in 2005. More than 220 foreign soldiers, most of them Americans but also dozens of Canadian and British troops, were also killed in 2007, by far the deadliest year since the United States invaded. Those early years of fighting, in 2001 and 2002, caused 80 deaths among the U.S. troops and their foreign allies....

Nearly everyone agrees, however, that Afghanistan will likely see rising violence in 2008. Two Western security analysts predicted that the year will bring increased sophistication in the Taliban's technology; they're likely to use so-called explosively formed penetrators for the first time, adopting a technique often used in Iraq to puncture even the most heavily armoured vehicle with a specially shaped explosive....

Even the most optimistic NATO officials say they cannot expect to reduce the levels of violence in 2008...

---

quote:

---

Thousands of people in Afghanistan have been protesting against the reprinting of cartoons in Danish newspapers they say are insults to Islam.

At the scene of the biggest protest, in the western city of Herat, police say more then 10,000 people took to the streets to denounce Denmark.

They also condemned the planned release of a Dutch film critical of the Koran.

They burned Dutch and Danish flags, and called for their troops to be removed from the Nato force in Afghanistan. [...]

One of the protesters, Mir Farooq Hussaini, blamed the US and its allies for what he saw as blasphemy against Islam.

"We are here today to show our anger for what happened in Denmark, and to all infidels in the leadership of criminal America for what is going on in the world," he said.

"If next time our beliefs are insulted, we will give a lesson to America and its allies the way we gave a lesson to Russia when they had occupied our country."

---

And further, just a reminder of the kind of "democracy" which we have placed on life support there:

quote:

---

Afghanistan is an Islamic republic where criticism of the Prophet Muhammad and the Koran can carry the death sentence.

Last week, more than 200 Afghan MPs protested in parliament, and urged the Danish and Dutch governments to prevent what they said was blasphemy against Islam.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:
Ok, tell the truth now. When was the last time anyone heard the expression "Provincial Reconstruction", other than on Juste Pour Rire?

---

Today on the occasion of the 100th anniversary of the International Womens Day, women in the developed countries celebrate it with joy, but we still have to voice the miseries, problems and cruelties that our people and particularly women are going through in Afghanistan.

After the US and allies invaded Afghanistan around seven years ago, they misleadingly claimed of bringing peace and democracy and liberating Afghan women from the bleeding fetters of the Taliban. But in reality Afghan women are still burning voraciously in the inferno of fundamentalism. Women are exchanged with dogs, girls are gang-raped, men in the Jehadi-dominated society kill their wives viciously and violently, burn them by throwing hot water, cut off their nose and toes, innocent women are stoned to death and other heinous crimes are being committed. But the mafia government of Mr. Karzai is tirelessly trying to conciliate with the criminals and award medals to those who should be prosecuted for their crimes and lootings. (...)

*Photos:*
http://www.rawa.org/events/mar8-08.htm

*Video Clip:*
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-eospjeOSMM (English)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=chubLJIQL48 (Persian)

[ 10 March 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

I have doubts this issue will blow over; it looks like this theme will be levered as a long-term rallying point to galvanize anti-occupier resistance.

quote:

---

REUTERS
Reuters North American News Service

Mar 09, 2008 02:01 EST

JALALABAD, Afghanistan, March 9 (Reuters) - Thousands of Afghan students blocked a highway and threatened attacks on foreign troops on Sunday in the latest protest against the reprinting of a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammad in Danish papers.
.....
Chanting anti-Western slogans, the marchers in Jalalabad burnt Danish and Dutch flags demanding the cartoonist and the politician, who plans to release his film this month, be put on trial.

"If our demands are not fullfilled, we will stage more protests and resort to suicide attacks against the foreigners," said Ibrahim, a university student.

The demonstrators also demanded Kabul freeze its ties with the Dutch and Danish governments and expel troops from the two countries who operate under NATO's command in Afghanistan.

The Afghan government has called the reprinting of the cartoon an attack against Islam and one official has warned it would swell the ranks of al Qaeda and its Taliban allies....

---

[ 10 March 2008: Message edited by: contrarianna ]

quote:

---

The body of a newly arrived Canadian soldier was discovered Tuesday on the NATO airbase here, sparking an immediate military investigation into the circumstances of his death.

Brigadier-General Guy Laroche said that 22-year-old Jérémie Ouellet was part of the latest rotation of troops, the majority of coming to Afghanistan in recent weeks from Shilo, Man.

“At approximately 2:15 p.m. on March 11th, the body of a Canadian soldier was found in an accommodation room here at Kandahar air field,” Brig-Gen Laroche told reporters in an overnight press conference. “The soldier's death is not related to combat.”

---

Shot while trying to escape, no doubt.

ETA: And in other breaking news:

quote:

---

The Conservative government scrambled Tuesday to explain a report that the Afghanistan mission will run $1-billion over budget this fiscal year.

---

It's money well spent, I say:

quote:

---

Pamela Wallin spoke of her conversations with soldiers who described how moved they were to see classrooms full of Afghan girls.

---

Enough to bring a tear to a corpse's eye.

[ 11 March 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

quote:

---

Shops and factories in the Afghan province of Herat have joined a strike by doctors to demand better security.[...]

Several hundred doctors and medical workers started an indefinite strike on Saturday in protest at a recent rise in the number of attacks on medical staff. [...]

On Monday, the government threatened the striking doctors with legal action if they didn't return to work. [...]

The strike was caused by the kidnapping of the son of a local doctor in Herat last week. ... Kidnappers are reported to have demanded $300,000 (£149,000) for his release. [...]

The doctors are demanding that security forces secure the release of the doctor's son, who was abducted in Herat city last week, and that overall security be improved.

---

quote:

---

“These incidents or accidents are based, are part of this mission,” Brig.-Gen. Laroche told reporters. “So it's a reality down here; … we keep on doing the job that we have to do.”

---

That's the military's explanation for the death of 22-year-old Bombardier Jérémie Ouellet.

quote:

---

Four Afghan civilians have been killed in an airstrike by British forces, the Ministry of Defence said.

The attack happened when troops called for help during a Taleban ambush in Helmand province, south Afghanistan. [...]

The four bodies - two women and two children - and one injured person were found when troops inspected the area. [...]

"We deeply regret the loss of innocent life and injuries and we are saddened that casualties were caused as a result of a deliberate attack against Isaf forces instigated by insurgents."

---

quote:

---

Mobile phones...were introduced to the country in 2001, after the fall of the Taleban.

---

2. Well, the Taleban won't be communicating with each other during those times either, if that is the only means they have or use to communicate with each other. Would not it have been easier for them to stop using their mobile phones during low traffic periods, rather than wasting resources blowing up towers?

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
Would not it have been easier for them to stop using their mobile phones during low traffic periods, rather than wasting resources blowing up towers?

---

Don't be silly. Airtime is free at night on most Taliban cellular packages.

No one ever said the Taliban were rocket scientists.

Time for bed I think... right after I answer this call...

[ 13 March 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:
Don't be silly. Airtime is free at night on most Taliban cellular packages.

No one ever said the Taliban were rocket scientists.

Time for bed I think... right after I answer this call...

---

But, but... they can't use their phones anway if the network are shut down during those times.

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:

But, but... they can't use their phones anway if the network are shut down during those times.

---

They conducted studies which showed they were shouting so loud into their phones that they could just as well do without them.

quote:

---

The soldier had just arrived with a new rotation of troops, Laroche said, adding his death was not the result of inexperience or being new to Afghanistan as one reporter suggested.

---

How reassuring. The military brass aren't to blame.

[ 16 March 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

quote:

---

The latest death brings the number of soldiers who have died in Afghanistan to 81. One diplomat was killed since Canada's combat mission began there in 2002.

---

quote:

---

In another incident in southern Afghanistan, two Danish soldiers and one Czech soldier, along with three Afghan civilians, were killed in a suicide car bombing, officials said.

A bomber attacked a convoy from the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) near the village of Girishk in the southern province of Helmand.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:
Yet another Canadian soldier blown up in Afghanistan

How reassuring. The military brass aren't to blame.

[ 16 March 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

---

We were told only days ago by the military brass that they would be intensifying their attacks because in Canada we were debating the extent of the mission. If they saw a weakness they would exploit it so we had to support the mission to do otherwise would put the troops in harms way because of our democracy. Now last week there was only self inflicted casualties amongst our troops during the debate lead-in.

Captain Christian Jørgen Grundt Damholt, Royal Danish Army

quote:

---

The Manitoba-based soldier who is Canada's latest fatality in Afghanistan was "a committed warrior" and "a leader through and through," according to his battle group's commander. ...

"He was someone we can all emulate. He represented the warrior spirit 100 per cent." ...

[Regimental Sgt.-Maj. Brian Semenko said:] "His idea was not to give candy to children, but to kill insurgents."

Gov. Gen. Michaëlle Jean said Boyes "deserves our respect and admiration" ...

---

Well, as the song says, looks like Sgt. Boyes ain't gonna study war no mo'.

ETA: The disgusting comments by the Governor General and others on the death of this young man raise the question: What models are we proposing for our youth? I'm repeating this post in Canadian Hall of Shame to continue the discussion there.

[ 17 March 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Webgear:
Why would you mourn him?

I figured you would like to know his name when you are discussing him.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:

I wasn't responding to your post at all, Webgear. I was the one who announced his death in this thread. I just thought I'd follow up by mentioning the disgusting obscene things his "friends" said about him after his death.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Webgear:

What are the disgusting obscene things were said about him?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:

Forget it, my friend. If you need to ask, you won't understand my point of view.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Webgear:

I would like to hear your views on Sergeant Jason Boyes. You seem to know what type of man he was, lets you verdict on the man.

---

I know nothing about him, and frankly I don't particularly care.

What I do know is the following obscenities that were said about him by his "friends" and colleagues:

quote:

---

"a committed warrior"

---

quote:

---

"He represented the warrior spirit 100 per cent."

---

quote:

---

""His idea was not to give candy to children, but to kill insurgents."

---

quote:

---

"deserves our respect and admiration"

---

[That last statement by some overpaid creep whose job is to parrot Stephen Harper's opinions without amendment.]

So you see, Webgear, the ball is in your court.

What is YOUR verdict on these statements?

Are they worthy? Are they dignified? Do they reflect the true history and spirit of our armed forces? Are they a good model for our youth to follow?

What the politicians say is another matter, it is highly unlikely they would have know him or know the type of soldier he was.

I would suppose they statements reflect the true history and spirit of the armed forces.

If today’s youth want to follow his path, that is their choice. They could always choose a different path as they wish. It is up to the individual to follow the path of his life, not yours or mind to make him/her follow our choose path.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Webgear:
My questions to you what is the warrior spirit in your view?

---

Just what his buddy said. Itching to kill people rather than give candy to kids. I notice you didn't comment on that. Why not??

quote:

---

And what is the true history and spirit of the Canadian armed forces?

---

There is a twofold history and spirit - in dialectic interplay, if you like:

1. Aspiring to fight for what is just and noble, for what defends Canada and liberates the people of the world; and
2. Being sent by domestic and foreign murders to kill, and die, for the sake of some glutton's profit.

No doubt, some enjoy the bloodthirsty aspects in and of themselves. If what was said about Boyes was true (and I don't know if it was - I only know the disgust I feel for creeps that use these as terms of praise), then I'm relieved he didn't get to live out his bloodthirsty ambitions. But as I say, I have no reason to believe that these obscenities were factual.

When the natural order of garrison life is removed and is replaced with the natural disorder of warfighting, the niceties of civilised behaviour are something of a handicap to survival. That simple fact is lost upon the chattering classes.

Life (or the immediate lack thereof) in an infantry section at the pointy end of the stick will and properly should always remain a mystery to those who prefer to judge rather than serve.

What was said of Sgt.Boyes was said in a moment of candour in a much different context than it is perceived here. They were meant as praise for a man who focussed on his mission and protected his men.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jester:

When the natural order of garrison life is removed and is replaced with the natural disorder of warfighting, the niceties of civilised behaviour are something of a handicap to survival.

---

Yeah, but this 22-year-old never saw any action - only his foot did. According to his "friends", he was pumped to kill "insurgents" (not even the politically correct "terrorists").

quote:

---

Originally posted by laine lowe:
Well if our troops are no longer the mythical "peace keepers" they once were, no need for me to shed a tear. The last Canadian soldier worthy of honour was Maj. Hess-von Kruedener, the Canadian peace keeper who was killed by Israeli bombing at the UN post on the Lebanon-Israeli border.

---

The operational word here is "mythical".

Canada's infantry battalions were mischaracterised as "peacekeepers by a squeamish public who did not want to face the reality that their military is just as focussed on warfighting as the USMC and every bit as good at it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by angrymonkey:
I was just wondering why there is disdain for the idea of peacekeeping among some soldiers?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jester:

The operational word here is "mythical".

Canada's infantry battalions were mischaracterised as "peacekeepers by a squeamish public who did not want to face the reality that their military is just as focussed on warfighting as the USMC and every bit as good at it.

This myth was enabled and assisted by a government that did not want to face an outraged public. they systemically purged any reference to misdeeds by "peacekeepers".

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quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:

Yeah, but this 22-year-old never saw any action - only his foot did. According to his "friends", he was pumped to kill "insurgents" (not even the politically correct "terrorists").

He who lives by the sword, dies by the IED.

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"this 22 year-old" is condemned here by heresay. He was trained for this specific mission and,if he were 32 years old or a 22 year old officer with an undergraduate degree,his alleged intemperate attitude would certainly be different.

quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:
Yeah, but this 22-year-old never saw any action - only his foot did.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jester:

I can only hope that his family are spared the benefit of your kind words. Do you have any children,unionist? have any youngsters of your acquaintance been characterised incorrectly by callow peers?

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I don't feel I need to limit my remarks to things I would say to the dead soldier's parents. I wouldn't say to them, for example, that their son died for worse than nothing, as millions before him have done. But it's true and it does need to be said.

ETA: I know you weren't talking to me. But people frequently make this point and it seems to me to be confusing political truth with interpersonal appropriateness. It seems to be a common strategy, e.g., "Support the troops".

[ 18 March 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

quote:

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
If you're referring to Jason Boyes, he was 32, not 22, and this was his third tour of duty in Afghanistan.

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My mistake. The early reports indicated it was his first rotation and that he was inexperienced - I fell victim to the fog of war.

quote:

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Originally posted by jester
I can only hope that his family are spared the benefit of your kind words. Do you have any children,unionist? have any youngsters of your acquaintance been characterised incorrectly by callow peers?

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Yes, I have children. Yes, it was hearsay. If his "friends" lied about him, my apologies to Jason Boyes and his family - but I've been careful to point out I was going by posthumous characterizations.

I've noticed that since I left the military the soldiers I talk to are so gung-ho about what is unfolding in Afghanistan; this is to be expected I guess, but is very different from days gone by where the military was more an outlet for the unemployed who didn't care less about politics and were serving because they needed a job. The U.S. was seen as much as a threat as the Soviets...in my day.

As far as I can see, the canadian military sees themselves as front and centre against the war on terror and the U.S. as role models. I never came across the term "warrior spirit" while I was in the combat arms and this sounds very, very American.

To me that soldier who walked past my window and the "warrior spirit" attitude scares me way more than Bin Laden.

quote:

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Originally posted by jester:

"Peacekeeping" missions are only one aspect of military capability.

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Agreed. I also do not share the view of some that Canadians should only be peacekeepers. That would have drastically reduced their effectiveness in WWII, for example!

quote:

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Yes, I have children. Yes, it was hearsay. If his "friends" lied about him, my apologies to Jason Boyes and his family - but I've been careful to point out I was going by posthumous characterizations.

If they correctly framed his character, then there's no need to mourn him. He went looking to murder Afghans, and they got him first. Tough.

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If they correctly framed his character, Jason Boyes would most likely say "tough" also.

RosaL makes a good point about confusing political truth with interpersonal appropriateness. From my point of view, it is not so much a strategy to support the troops as it is to realise that the warfighters are doing what they are paid to do and that if anyone wishes to take issue with what they do,then the appropriate place for that is the political arena where the orders are issued.

The military is full of Sgt Boyeses.Thats what they are trained for. There is no room for moral equivocacy inside the trigger guard.

In the US,they celebrate the war-fighting spirit -" Do you have a conscience,Marine? Sir, no sir. Why not? Sir,The Corps didn't issue me with one,sir".

In Canada,successive governments have worked very diligently to bullshit the public into believing that Canada's military (Canadian Forces, not Canadian Armed Forces) are kindly blue-bereted helpmeets with pockets full of pencils and candy when the reality is that Canada's ground pounders are every bit as fierce and unpolitically correct as any Marine.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sam:
Funny because as I was reading this a soldier in combats walked past my window down the street...I think it demonsrates the growing militarization of our society where uniforms become normalized. I find it hard to get use to...

I've noticed that since I left the military the soldiers I talk to are so gung-ho about what is unfolding in Afghanistan; this is to be expected I guess, but is very different from days gone by where the military was more an outlet for the unemployed who didn't care less about politics and were serving because they needed a job. The U.S. was seen as much as a threat as the Soviets...in my day.

As far as I can see, the canadian military sees themselves as front and centre against the war on terror and the U.S. as role models. I never came across the term "warrior spirit" while I was in the combat arms and this sounds very, very American.

To me that soldier who walked past my window and the "warrior spirit" attitude scares me way more than Bin Laden.

Yeah, I think it is very important that we openly point out the creeping fascism that is unfolding...

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Vey true. I am much more concerned with the apparent adulation for the American military model expressed by the more junior ranks than I am any so-called inappropriate attitude toward combat.

The increasing integration and interoperability with US forces and the open disdain shown by Canadian senior officers to any weapons platforms or kit that is not of US manufacture is scary.

Canada is losing national control of its military apparatus to an international model supposedly based on NATO but in reality merely a pawn in the American pursuit of Pax Americana.

Exactly. Soldiers who use to act and talk like this were always kinda mentally suspect...like they watched way too many movies...

Officers, Hillier in particular, were detested...it was a given that the higher the rank the dumber you became. Senior NCOs were Gods and the most respected; treating officers with barely concealed contempt.

quote:

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In the US,they celebrate the war-fighting spirit -" Do you have a conscience,Marine? Sir, no sir. Why not? Sir,The Corps didn't issue me with one,sir".

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Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:

There is a difference between being a soldier and being a sociopath, although the army attracts a fair number of the latter. The american army made a consious choice to train sociopaths instead of soldiers and there is a historic context to that. The U.S. army was disastisfied with the general level of aggressiveness of their troops in World War two only a minority actually fired their weapons in combat. The military wanted to increase the aggressiveness of their troops and in doing so chose trainings that would overcome a natural resistance to violence,to do so is to create sociopaths. OF course an army of disciplined sociopaths is certainly more desirable for an army of imperial invaders than a democratic defence force. This fits with the creeping fascism of North America that we are seeing increasingly expressed in Canadian foreign policy and the media.

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Well said,NR.

Combat training is counter-intuitive and the citizen-soldier is too conflicted to embrace the desired goal of combat automaton.

Sociopaths are drawn to the war-fighting part of the military in the same manner that molesters are drawn to the church or education - more opportunity.

I hope that after the airborne debacle in Somalia, the Canadian military is addressing the sociopathic tendencies in the CF but, unit cohesiveness is prized above individual mental health - as evidenced by the stigma attached to any PTS sufferer who seeks help. Its a career ender.

I don't know how this fits into the equation but the US military is more and more being controlled by an element that ruthlessly weeds out those who do not wholeheartedly partake in Christian worship of the fundamentalist variety. Atheists or agnostics are faced with career hindrances from superiors.

quote:

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Originally posted by jester:

Sociopaths are drawn to the war-fighting part of the military in the same manner that molesters are drawn to the church or education - more opportunity.

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I'm not sure what the connection is but I remember distinctly some fellow soldiers dragging me to a meeting organized by american soldiers (this was in germany) who were fundamentalist christians. The organizers had cowboy hats and big shiny belt buckles. I remember everyone on thier knees praying and in tears or something and I was embaressed because I refused to join them - and consequently stuck out.

All these soldiers (without exception) owned their own guns - not just pistols, but converted assault rifles. The magazine "Soldier of Fortune" was like a bible to them and they were all drawn to the "plight" of Israel and saw the final conflict occuring in Megiddo (in Palestine)...

Scary stuff!

I found it all very disturbing and at the same time fascinating because they also talked about the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" so none of it made sense.

So in my experience there is some sort of connection, but I'm not sure how far to take it.

[ 18 March 2008: Message edited by: Sam ]

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Calling soldiers natural born sociopaths or fundamentalists is merely adding insult to injury.

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To say that sociopaths are attracted to the military is not the same as saying that soldiers are sociopaths. (It does imply that sociopaths might be disproportionately represented in the military.)

parallel: Pedophiles are attracted to jobs where they occupy a position of trust and can be around children, e.g., teaching, priesthood. To say that is not to call priests or teachers natural born pedophiles (though it implies a disproportionate representation of pedophiles in jobs like that).

In both cases, the vast majority are neither "natural born sociopaths" nor pedophiles.

It is the ruling class who bear ultimate responsibility. But it's not enough to point that out. We need to try to understand how the whole thing works.

[ 18 March 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

[ 18 March 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

I don't think that the majority of soldiers are psychopaths or sociopaths, but like in Hitler's Germany normal good people act out, accept or turn a blind eye to acts of genocide.

Certainly the soldiers I described above were the exception. Most just wanted to buy a motorcycle and have a family. And I'm pretty certain that those soldiers who packed their own weapons have been weeded out.

What I find truly dangerous are the ones that take on the warrior spirit mentality because there isn't even any myth of peackeeping anymore, but instead blatant run of the mill racist imperialism and occupation hiding behind professionalism.

The warrior spirit seems to be our military's new corporate culture and is no longer an aberration but the norm. So in the past I think you had only the officer class who detested "peace keeping" and dreamed of the day when they could "take on the scum bags." But they were too professional to say so. Hillier, their new CEO, changed all that.

9-11, "support the troops", increased pay, greater prestige and new weaponry changed all this too. Bush getting away with murder changed all this as well.

This "professionalism" is mirrored in universities, social agencies, churches, the media and our legal system - not totally, but increasingly I think.

However, once in a while the truth comes out such as the quote: "His idea was not to give candy to children, but to kill insurgents."

In the past that would have been seen as an indictment not something to be written on his tombstone.

How else can you explain a legal system that allows people to be locked up for years without trial, university professors who teach that torture is cool, or commercials that claim that nuclear energy is clean?

[ 18 March 2008: Message edited by: Sam ]

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
I understand your point. What I resist is the psychologizing and individualizing....

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It was a minor point but a valid one. You are right to resist these things but wrong to imply that that was what I was doing.

[ 18 March 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

quote:

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
I know that "not all soldiers are sociopaths", my point is that precious few of them are: the killing is done by brown and blue-eyed sons and brothers that share ouir values!

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quote:

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Calling soldiers natural born sociopaths or fundamentalists is merely adding insult to injury.

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I'm not "calling" anyone anything,Martin. What I am doing is asking for NRK's opinion on the concept.

I think this issue is very relevant to the disconnect that successive governments have engineered between the public and the military.

quote:

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Well, maybe precious few were "born" sociopaths, but they were mostly all trained to become sociopaths. They may have "shared our values" at one time, but the armed forces knocks that out of them pretty fast.

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I don't think thats true at all. The majority,while they may not speak out,do not subscribe to sociopathic tendencies.

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Originally posted by unionist:

Just what his buddy said. Itching to kill people rather than give candy to kids. I notice you didn't comment on that. Why not??

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Sgt Boyes was there to provide security, to kill insurgents, not to hand out candy.

His mission was to close with and destroy the enemy. I did not think there was any need to comment on this.

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Originally posted by unionist:

There is a twofold history and spirit - in dialectic interplay, if you like:

1. Aspiring to fight for what is just and noble, for what defends Canada and liberates the people of the world; and
2. Being sent by domestic and foreign murders to kill, and die, for the sake of some glutton's profit.

No doubt, some enjoy the bloodthirsty aspects in and of themselves. If what was said about Boyes was true (and I don't know if it was - I only know the disgust I feel for creeps that use these as terms of praise), then I'm relieved he didn't get to live out his bloodthirsty ambitions. But as I say, I have no reason to believe that these obscenities were factual.

So what do you think of wanting to "kill insurgents" rather than giving candies to kids?

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He was in the proper mindset in my view, he was prepare to kill if necessary because it was his role. There are no indications he was bloodthirsty or seeking out glory, it was stated he was there to kill insurgents.

People remember him as a kind and loving husband and parent as well.

quote:

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Originally posted by laine lowe:

Well if our troops are no longer the mythical "peace keepers" they once were, no need for me to shed a tear. The last Canadian soldier worthy of honour was Maj. Hess-von Kruedener, the Canadian peace keeper who was killed by Israeli bombing at the UN post on the Lebanon-Israeli border.

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Why do you believe Major Hess-von Kruedener is worthy of honour, did you know him well? Both he and Sgt Boyes had the similar qualities and traits, the only difference that is that they died in different countries.

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Originally posted by RosaL:

In other words, the Canadian government lied to Canadians in order to get their support for what it was doing with the military. I agree 100%. I would only add that what it was doing was in support of American foreign policy.

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If this is the case, the government(s) and political parties of Canada have been lying to the Canadian public since well before the 1960s. I am not aware of any major changes of the role of the military since 1866.

quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:

My mistake. The early reports indicated it was his first rotation and that he was inexperienced - I fell victim to the fog of war.

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I think you fell victim to running off at the mouth, no article you posted implied anything of the nature.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sam:
Funny because as I was reading this a soldier in combats walked past my window down the street...I think it demonsrates the growing militarization of our society where uniforms become normalized. I find it hard to get use to...

I've noticed that since I left the military the soldiers I talk to are so gung-ho about what is unfolding in Afghanistan; this is to be expected I guess, but is very different from days gone by where the military was more an outlet for the unemployed who didn't care less about politics and were serving because they needed a job. The U.S. was seen as much as a threat as the Soviets...in my day.

As far as I can see, the canadian military sees themselves as front and centre against the war on terror and the U.S. as role models. I never came across the term "warrior spirit" while I was in the combat arms and this sounds very, very American.

To me that soldier who walked past my window and the "warrior spirit" attitude scares me way more than Bin Laden.

Yeah, I think it is very important that we openly point out the creeping fascism that is unfolding...

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Are you implying that uniformed men in Belleville were not common before Afghanistan?

When were you in the combat arms? The warrior spirit has been part of the combat arms for decades.

I have never not heard of soldiers never not talking about politics, these discussions maybe have been a negative light however it has always been discussed in my experiences.

quote:

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Originally posted by Noise:

All good soldiers believe in God... no?

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At some point of time, especially in Afghanistan most soldier’s believe in a god(s).

quote:

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Originally posted by M. Spector:

Well, maybe precious few were "born" sociopaths, but they were mostly all trained to become sociopaths. They may have "shared our values" at one time, but the armed forces knocks that out of them pretty fast.

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Is this the accepted definition of a Profile of the Sociopath?

Because many of the traits mentioned in the previous website here would not acceptable in the military such as:

a. Pathological Lying
b. Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
c. Irresponsibility/Unreliability
d. Paranoid

As a commander of a unit would you want soldiers that lie about what they saw during a reconnaissance mission? Or soldiers that had behavioural problems or acted impulsive before morning attack?

quote:

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Originally posted by jester:
Is it possible to "train" a person into sociopathy?

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quote:

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Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:
The American army made a conscious choice to train sociopaths instead of soldiers and there is a historic context to that. The U.S. army was disastisfied with the general level of aggressiveness of their troops in World War two; only a minority actually fired their weapons in combat. The military wanted to increase the aggressiveness of their troops and in doing so chose trainings that would overcome a natural resistance to violence; to do so is to create sociopaths. Of course an army of disciplined sociopaths is certainly more desirable for an army of imperial invaders than a democratic defence force. This fits with the creeping fascism of North America that we are seeing increasingly expressed in Canadian foreign policy and the media.

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quote:

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In the US,they celebrate the war-fighting spirit - "Do you have a conscience, Marine? Sir, no sir. Why not? Sir,The Corps didn't issue me with one,sir".

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[ 18 March 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:
Sgt Boyes was there to provide security, to kill insurgents, not to hand out candy.
His mission was to close with and destroy the enemy.

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quote:

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Is this the accepted definition of a Profile of the Sociopath ?

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quote:

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"Are you implying that uniformed men in Belleville were not common before Afghanistan?"

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Certainly; not like now.

Webgear wrote:

quote:

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"When were you in the combat arms? The warrior spirit has been part of the combat arms for decades."

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Bullshit. I was in the Strathcona's and the Dragoons between 1980 and 1987. Even saying those words, "warrior spirit", would have garnered derisive hoots!

Webgear wrote:

quote:

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"I have never not heard of soldiers never not talking about politics, these discussions maybe have been a negative light however it has always been discussed in my experiences."

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Too many double negatives; makes my head hurt!

[ 18 March 2008: Message edited by: Sam ]

quote:

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
I don't know. But that link is to the webpage of an economist, so I don't think it is necessarily authoritative.

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I posted the link because it is apart of California Institute of Technology:
Division of the Humanities and Social Sciences

California Institute of Technology

"Welcome to the Division of the Humanities and Social Sciences (HSS), one of six academic units at the California Institute of Technology.

Within HSS, the Humanities Faculty comprises elements of history, literature, philosophy, history of science, and various languages. The Social Science Faculty draws together an interdisciplinary group of scholars working across the fields of anthropology, economics, finance, law, political science, psychology, and neuroscience."

quote:

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But his RSM wasn't describing the mission when he said "His idea was not to give candy to children, but to kill insurgents." He was describing the soldier's character.

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In my view the mission and the character of Sgt Boyes are interlinked.

"He was really dedicated to the idea of serving overseas," Semenko said. "He felt the best way to serve was to do it overseas. His idea was not to give candy to children, but to kill insurgents."

The quote in my view applies the best Sgt Boyes though he could serve was to eliminate the insurgents to allow a better life for the children.

If you look at the traits of a sociopath from the CAL Tech site, Sgt Boyes have none of those traits which apply to a sociopath.

[ 18 March 2008: Message edited by: Webgear ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Sam:
Webgear wrote:

"Are you implying that uniformed men in Belleville were not common before Afghanistan?"

Certainly; not like now.

Webgear wrote:

"When were you in the combat arms? The warrior spirit has been part of the combat arms for decades."

Bullshit. I was in the Strathcona's and the Dragoons between 1980 and 1987. Even saying those words, "warrior spirit", would have garnered derisive hoots!

Webgear wrote:

"I have never not heard of soldiers never not talking about politics, these discussions maybe have been a negative light however it has always been discussed in my experiences."

Too many double negatives; makes my head hurt!

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Sam

Sorry about the double negatives, it was not my intention to hurt your head.

The local natives have had lots of contact with 'em too with the mere presence of the military fueling speculation of a possible aid to the civil power action - what with Sharbot Lake and Tyendinaga heating up and all.

quote:

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I don't think thats true at all. The majority,while they may not speak out,do not subscribe to sociopathic tendencies.

Is it possible to "train" a person into sociopathy?

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I have to be honest I was being rather lazy in my use of the term. I don't generally subscribe to psychiatric diagnosis or nosology.

What I was suggesting is that on the one hand the military might attract a certain number of people who are more comfortable with expressing or engaging or indulging in violent fantasies. I also believe that the military does consiously engage in practices that encourage trainee soldiers to suppress any empathy they might have for the "enemy", this can obviously be even more problematic if it generalizes to all others.