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Author Topic: Hamas victory in Gaza part 2
Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 18 June 2007 05:26 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In response to my issues in the previous thread about how a secular, bi-national Israeli and Palestinian state could be achieved, BetterRed asked

"Whoa, back up for a second.
Al Qaeda has a
presence in Israel/Palestine?
If it did,then everyone would of known by now.."

There has been some speculation of some al Qaeda presence, but I meant that the group in general would likely want to work against such a state.


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 18 June 2007 05:28 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oops, I see a Part 2 has already been started under Palestine II...
From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 18 June 2007 06:16 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's okay. The other thread is closed. I like your thread much better.

Let's continue here.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 18 June 2007 06:33 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Joel, you have a habit of introducing red herrings to a conversation. I assume we will soon have the Red Brigade introduced into the topic ...

quote:
Considering the whole history, the political and secular-religious rivalries going on now ... how could this be achieved?

In Northern Ireland nationalists and unionists now sit in the same government. How is that possible?

Why don't you explain what it is, exactly, that precludes "the idea of one secular democratic state based on equal rights and opportunities for both Israelis and Palestinians"?


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 18 June 2007 07:05 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There are a few major differences between Northern Ireland and Israel/Palestine.

1. Catholics have a state - the Republic of Ireland. It's not as if they either make Northern Ireland an independent Irish Catholic country or else there is no place on earth where Irish Catholics are in control.

2. Although the conflict is depicted as Protestants vs. Catholics - the degree of religiosity has almost no bearing on the degree of militancy. The very moderate SDLP tends to have a lot of backing from the Catholic church and its people are quite religious. i don't know how often (if ever) members of fanatical groups like the REAL IRA attend mass etc...

3. The UK and Ireland are two very prosperous first world countries that are both members of the EU

4. Part of the reason why there is now peace is that the IRA finally saw the writing on the wall and accepted the fact that all of Northern Ireland becoming part of Ireland is simply not in the cards. They then disarmed.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 18 June 2007 07:21 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Robert Fisk, as usual, is full of common sense and honesty in writing about "Palestine".

Fisk also lifts the covers just enough to show us why so many in the Arab world are outraged by Western "assistance". There really is quite a lengthy list of reactionary governments in the Arab and Muslim world whose "success" is mostly dependent on the imperialist countries propping them up. However, I have yet to read from a single Israeli apologist and critic of such reactionary governments an acknowledgement of that patently obvious fact. The Israelis may be "winning" the ethnic cleansing but they're being played just the same. Their democracy is going down the toilet.

Fisk: Welcome to "Palestine"

quote:
Fisk: How troublesome the Muslims of the Middle East are. First, we demand that the Palestinians embrace democracy and then they elect the wrong party - Hamas - and then Hamas wins a mini-civil war and presides over the Gaza Strip. And we Westerners still want to negotiate with the discredited President, Mahmoud Abbas. ....

Who can we negotiate with? To whom do we talk? Well of course, we should have talked to Hamas months ago. But we didn't like the democratically elected government of the Palestinian people. They were supposed to have voted for Fatah and its corrupt leadership. But they voted for Hamas, which declines to recognise Israel or abide by the totally discredited Oslo agreement.

No one asked - on our side - which particular Israel Hamas was supposed to recognise. The Israel of 1948? The Israel of the post-1967 borders? The Israel which builds - and goes on building - vast settlements for Jews and Jews only on Arab land, gobbling up even more of the 22 per cent of "Palestine" still left to negotiate over ?

And so today, we are supposed to talk to our faithful policeman, Mr Abbas, the "moderate" (as the BBC, CNN and Fox News refer to him) [and Israel as well - N.Beltov] Palestinian leader, a man who wrote a 600-page book about Oslo without once mentioning the word "occupation", who always referred to Israeli "redeployment" rather than "withdrawal", a "leader" we can trust because he wears a tie and goes to the White House and says all the right things.


Fisk finishes: "How do we deal with a coup d'état by an elected government?" The answer seems to be - by supporting all the fake democracies, including Israel, in the Middle East.

Over here , Anthony DiMaggio notes that "the one-sided blame (in US media) placed upon Hamas for the failure of peace represents more a propaganda strategy than a legitimate reporting of the reality on the ground." As DiMaggio points out

quote:
(there were) explicit demands of Israeli leaders themselves, codified in the 2003 Road Map, that Abbas engage in armed conflict against Hamas. The second phase of the Road Map directed the Palestinian leadership to undertake “the complete dismantling of terrorist organizations,” including Hamas and Islamic Jihad – a prescription that the late progressive critic Tanya Reinhart condemned as a recipe for civil war (see The Road Map to Nowhere: Israel/Palestine Since 2003).

Civil war through Israeli instruction?

"Haaretz reports that Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is planning to tell President Bush that that there is an urgent need to view the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as separate entities and prevent contact between them."

According to one report, the militias that Israel and the US have been arming are like Palestinian contras, whose attempted coup has been nipped in the bud by Hamas. So the recent Hamas military victory in Gaza is seen as a condemnation of the Israeli and US policy:

quote:
AMY GOODMAN: Ali Abunimah, can you describe who is arming both sides, Fatah and Hamas?

ALI ABUNIMAH: Yes. What we've seen is really a direct result of the Bush doctrine. Since January 2006 when Hamas won the legislative election fair and square, the United States refused the election result and it has been arming several Palestinian militias, particularly those controlled by the Gaza warlord, Mohammed Declan. This is a repeat strategy of the contras. These are Palestinian contras. And the architect of this policy is none other than Elliott Abrams, the deputy national security advisor, who was convicted for lying to congress in the Iran-contra scandal. And Alvaro de Soto, the UN Reporter that you mentioned in the introduction, Amy, confirms in detail the extent of the conspiracy that the United States has been undertaking to overthrow the election result and destroy Hamas. And just a few days before this round of fighting started on June 7, Haaretz, the Israeli newspaper reported that senior Fatah commanders in the Gaza Strip had asked Israel for millions of rounds of ammunition, RPG's, hand grenades and armored cars to use against Hamas. So I think what we've seen is Hamas taking a last resort move to put an end to what it describes as a coup intended to overthrow the election result. It's a major blow for the United States and for the Bush doctrine, although it's very hard to see how it helps Palestinians very much considering that Israel and the United States are likely to tighten the siege of Gaza and to continue to fund the militias. We've already seen Condoleezza Rice throwing her support behind Abbas and no sign of a letup in US interference and armed intervention in Palestinian affairs.


There is more:

quote:
ALI ABUNIMAH: Yes. The weapons that have been delivered to the Fatah militias to the Palestinian contras of Mohammed Declan, come via Egypt and are delivered with the direct coordination of Israel. The Fatah commanders make requests to Israel and Israel coordinates the delivery of the weapons to Egypt. Hamas gets its weapons. There are reports that Hamas receives funding from Iran. Hamas also gets weapons from Egypt. What's notable is that many of the weapons that Israel delivers to Fatah for use against Hamas are then sold on by corrupt Fatah commanders to the highest bidders, so recently Israel has been actually turning down Fatah requests for weapons because they say to the Fatah commanders you just turn around and sell the weapons to Hamas. So Gaza is absolutely awash with weapons and nobody seems to have any difficulty getting hold of them.

Ali-Abunimah sees the recent events as the death of the "two-state" solution. "I think we have to recognize that the Israeli policy of trying to create Palestinian ghettos [inaudible] is failing before our very eyes." ...

About similar events taking place in the occupied West Bank?

"I wouldn't overestimate the strength of Fatah or underestimate the strength of Hamas in the West Bank because Hamas has considerable resources in the West Bank. The thing I fear, though, is that the United States and its allies in the Palestinian authority will be foolish enough to try to do in the West Bank what they've just failed to do (coup to wipe out Hamas) in Gaza. And that would bring increased disaster and chaos for Palestinians throughout the West Bank as well."

What next?


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 18 June 2007 07:39 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
There are a few major differences between Northern Ireland and Israel/Palestine.

1. Catholics have a state - the Republic of Ireland. It's not as if they either make Northern Ireland an independent Irish Catholic country or else there is no place on earth where Irish Catholics are in control.

2. Although the conflict is depicted as Protestants vs. Catholics - the degree of religiosity has almost no bearing on the degree of militancy. The very moderate SDLP tends to have a lot of backing from the Catholic church and its people are quite religious. i don't know how often (if ever) members of fanatical groups like the REAL IRA attend mass etc...

3. The UK and Ireland are two very prosperous first world countries that are both members of the EU

4. Part of the reason why there is now peace is that the IRA finally saw the writing on the wall and accepted the fact that all of Northern Ireland becoming part of Ireland is simply not in the cards. They then disarmed


1. Catholics have a state besides the Vatican? Who knew? Why wasn't I informed. I assume I have citizenship awaiting me.

2. Really? So how is that different from the middle-east? I would argue if land and water was removed from the equation in the middle-east, we would find God no longer has so much to say about it.

3. So what?

4. You think so? Maybe you know better than I, but is it not possible the Unionists and their British allies saw the writing on the wall in terms of the Catholic demographic time bomb?

5. How does any of that answer my question which was directed at Joel?

For reference:

Why don't you explain what it is, exactly, that precludes "the idea of one secular democratic state based on equal rights and opportunities for both Israelis and Palestinians"?


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 18 June 2007 08:04 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Save your typing fingers, FM. You're unlikely to get a coherent reply other than ever new, and irrelevant, diversions.

Besides which, ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians (or worse) still hasn't been given a proper "chance" to work itself out. But I'm sure they'll let us know when they're done.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Flash Walken
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posted 18 June 2007 08:39 AM      Profile for Flash Walken     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1942918.ece

quote:
ISRAEL’s new defence minister Ehud Barak is planning an attack on Gaza within weeks to crush the Hamas militants who have seized power there.

According to senior Israeli military sources, the plan calls for 20,000 troops to destroy much of Hamas’s military capability in days.



Scumbag.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 18 June 2007 08:43 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Why don't you explain what it is, exactly, that precludes "the idea of one secular democratic state based on equal rights and opportunities for both Israelis and Palestinians"?

Why don't you the religious freaks in Hamas? The last thing they want is a secular society where women and sexual minorities have rights and where religions other than Islam would be allowed.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 18 June 2007 08:58 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wise words from Tariq Ali:

quote:
Arab Monitor: Do you think Israel is capable of transforming in such a way that it will become the Sate of all its citizens, with equal rights of all its citizens, independently of their religious or ethnic affiliations ?

Tariq Ali: “This is a difficult question. I think it would take possibly another 50 years. But it could happen by the end of the century. I don’t’ think that Israel, as it exists at the moment, is viable. I think the only viable solution for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a single state in which all Jews, Christians, Muslims, Druze and Druids and whatsoever have the same rights. It’s what we fought for in South Africa, And it’s what will have to be fought for in Israel. And people will jump up and scream: ‘no, we will never live with each other’. But living with each other is what has to be argued for. I think, it’s the only serious alternative. A Palestinian State is not possible. It would be a tiny little Bantustan run by a corrupt leadership, funded by the West and treated like an NGO. That is the PLO. That is the Palestinian Authority. It is not an authority, it is a joke. And the sooner it recognizes that it’s a joke and dissolves itself, the better. That’s what Hamas should do: they should not play this game, they should say ‘we dissolve the Palestinian Authority, it is not an authority, it is an outfit of the Israeli army. We dissolve all these bodies, we are now citizens of whatever entity there is in the region and deal with it.' And then just live in their villages and towns, not trying to develop this fake apparatus of government, when that’s a joke, when they have no power at all and are treated like a joke. So all this is done to create a tiny, corrupt Palestinian elite. That’s why Hamas won the elections, because it is opposed to this. If it now capitulates to this, they will be finished”.


Says Ali, "I am for a single State-solution. I think the Israelis have made any other alternative impossible. So in my opinion, that is what the Palestinians in Palestine and their movements outside (of Palestine) should do: they should fight for a single State and they should transform the PLO and Hamas into a giant civil rights and liberation movement, on the model of many movements in history. They should say ‘these are the rights we will fight for ..." [etc.]

Single State? - Tariq Ali

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 18 June 2007 09:04 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Why don't you the religious freaks in Hamas?

At least you are becoming more coherent.

quote:

The last thing they want is a secular society where women and sexual minorities have rights and where religions other than Islam would be allowed.


I am much more interested in Joel's response, but since you are here and being somewhat less rabid than usual, should I assume from your comment you believe Hamas is representative of all Palestinians?

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 18 June 2007 09:08 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Says Ali, "I am for a single State-solution. I think the Israelis have made any other alternative impossible."

Hear! Hear!

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 18 June 2007 09:11 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It worked in South Africa. Why not in Israel?
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 18 June 2007 09:21 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I am much more interested in Joel's response, but since you are here and being somewhat less rabid than usual, should I assume from your comment you believe Hamas is representative of all Palestinians?

Not all. But they are powerful enough that if there were ever to be a "single state solution" - Hamas would have to agree to an UNamendable consitution that would include such things as the following:

1. TOTAL equality between men and women
2. TOTAL equality for gays and lesbians
3. TOTAL separation of church and state with no possibility of any religions ever being able to influence public policy
4. TOTAL disarmament and rejection of violence
5. An open door policy on Jewish immigration until the end of time so that WHEN the next Holocaust happens, Jews all over the world are guaranteed sanctuary.

If the leaders of Hamas agreed unconditionally to all these points - it would be a point of departure for negotiations that might last 20 or 30 years.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 18 June 2007 09:27 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[/QB][/QUOTE]For reference:
Why don't you explain what it is, exactly, that precludes "the idea of one secular democratic state based on equal rights and opportunities for both Israelis and Palestinians"?[/QB][/QUOTE]

Ken Burch's questions in the thread he attempted to start reflect some of the potential problems — it's a huge 180-degree turn. Also, as I wrote, some forces (al-Qaeda operating in neighbouring countries) and others who favour a state based on religion, would work very hard to counter this, IMO.


For reference, from Ken Burch:

1)This approach would require a major reconciliation project, a project that would likely take decades.

2)The "Maximalists" on BOTH sides...Hamas and those more violent than Hamas on the Palestinian side, the settlers, the ultra-religious/ultra-nationalists and the increasingly crazed ranks of the IDF. What's to be done about them? They need to be started on decaf and some serious primo dope, to say the least. What's going to calm them down to the point that they won't make everyone else live at their mercy.

3)The "transfer" issue...how do we avoid getting anybody kicked out in large numbers, since expulsions on either side would do more to keep violence going than anybody else(we could assume that the weapons stockpiles of the IDF, for example, could sustain a guerrilla war that could go on for many years, and Hamas could get access to enough ordnance from various sources to do the same.) This is related to question 2, of course.

4)The "religious vs. secular" issue. Related to the maximalist question to a degree, but independent of it as well. How could you get the religious crazies on both sides to give up on forcing everybody to submit to their OWN particular creed(There might also be the question of what all the U.S. evangelicals, many of whom know their way around a gun or two, might do if they thought their "last days" scenario was being disrupted.
The One State would, logically, HAVE to be secular and totally neutral on religious question. Is this at all possible in this particular war?


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 18 June 2007 09:50 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What a surprise. The usual suspect(s) have provided a litany of pre-conditions rather than setting goals to be achieved. That's what I call planned failure.

Keep up the good work.

By the way, was there anything about ending the supplying of Palestinian contras with weapons? Anything about ending the bulldozing of Palestinian homes? Anything about ending the ethnic cleansing in the West Bank? Anything about the endless daily harassment and humilations of Palestinians trying to travel, see the doctor, give birth to their children, etc., in the West Bank? Anything about ending the imprisonment of children? Anything about releasing the democratically elected Palestinian Members of Parliament, including Cabinet Ministers, after a year of imprisonment? Anything about putting a stop to the Jewish only roads?

Nope. Nothing. Those are subject to "negotiations" with the latest "moderate" that can be found who can write a 600 page book about Oslo and not mention the word "occupation" once.

The views of the Israeli government are well represented on babble.

I expect calls for indiscriminate bombing of Gaza, in order to "restore order", in short order. I'm sure some "moderates" can be found who support that as well.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 18 June 2007 09:57 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So now Fatah (founded by Yassir Arafat and the core party of the PLO) are "contras"????
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
John K
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posted 18 June 2007 10:05 AM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Posted by N. Beltov:
quote:
It worked in South Africa. Why not in Israel?

The ANC in South Africa was seeking an inclusive, democratic, multi-racial state in South Africa. Hamas is seeking to turn all of Israel and the Palestinian territory into a single Islamic State. The Hamas Charter (Covenant) is not ambiguous about this stated goal at all.

I don't agree with the isolation of Hamas. Hamas is a significant political and military force within the Palestianian territory and this has to be acknowledged. There are more moderate elements within Hamas that need to be engaged. But again a major obstacle is the Hamas Charter which precludes involvement in any peace talks.

The PLO (Fatah) once had the destruction of Israel in its Charter. Maybe someday Hamas will also change its Charter but until it does it is hard to see how any kind of comprehensive peace agreement will be possible - one-state or two-state.


From: Edmonton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 18 June 2007 10:06 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
What a surprise. The usual suspect(s) have provided a litany of pre-conditions rather than setting goals to be achieved. That's what I call planned failure.

If you're referring to Ken Burch's issues, I read them more as questions about potential problems than pre-conditions.


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 18 June 2007 10:07 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Stockholm: So now Fatah are "contras"?

Not simply Fatah but the militias armed by Israel and the US in Gaza. The US staff are the same ones involved with the Nicaraguan contras.

If the shoe fits, wear it.

quote:
What we've seen is really a direct result of the Bush doctrine. Since January 2006 when Hamas won the legislative election fair and square, the United States refused the election result and it has been arming several Palestinian militias, particularly those controlled by the Gaza warlord, Mohammed Declan. This is a repeat strategy of the contras. These are Palestinian contras. And the architect of this policy is none other than Elliott Abrams, the deputy national security advisor, who was convicted for lying to congress in the Iran-contra scandal. And Alvaro de Soto, the UN Reporter that you mentioned in the introduction, Amy, confirms in detail the extent of the conspiracy that the United States has been undertaking to overthrow the election result and destroy Hamas. And just a few days before this round of fighting started on June 7, Haaretz, the Israeli newspaper reported that senior Fatah commanders in the Gaza Strip had asked Israel for millions of rounds of ammunition, RPG's, hand grenades and armored cars to use against Hamas.

I wonder if the funders of Declan will start calling him "a founding father" like Reagan did with the contras?

Supplemental: to Joel: "If you're referring to Ken Burch's issues", etc. No. It was Stockholm's list of pre-conditions that seem more like goals to me than a starting point of anything.

Supplemental to John K: 2 sides that negotiate anything have to "recognize" each other whether they like it or not. You seem to be outlining pre-conditions for "successful" failure and ignoring the elephants in the room; the Israelis have effectively arrested a sizable portion of the Hamas leadership, they're continuing to carry out politicide by supporting the puppet Abbas, they're funding militias whose express aim is to annihilate the organization that, for the time being, represents the political will of the majority of the Palestinians, etc., etc., etc.

Robert Fisk pointed out in one of his articles that he noticed gold-plated bathroom fixtures in the bombed out remains of a Fatah building. The Israelis and US (and Canada and ...) have chosen to support a very corrupt organization that Palestinians are disgusted with. These countries have contemptibly ignored the democratic wishes of the Palestinians by cutting the funding to the Hamas controlled PA. It shouldn't be a "surprise" to anyone that some Palestinians hold "democratic" institutions and practices in as much contempt as Israel, the USA, Canada and other do.

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 18 June 2007 10:25 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
If the leaders of Hamas agreed unconditionally to all these points - it would be a point of departure for negotiations that might last 20 or 30 years

Perhaps Israel should unconditionally agree to all those points as well. They could call it a constitution.

quote:
An open door policy on Jewish immigration until the end of time so that WHEN the next Holocaust happens, Jews all over the world are guaranteed sanctuary.

Why only Jews? Why not any persecuted minority anywhere?

quote:
Ken Burch's questions in the thread he attempted to start reflect some of the potential problems — it's a huge 180-degree turn. Also, as I wrote, some forces (al-Qaeda operating in neighbouring countries) and others who favour a state based on religion, would work very hard to counter this, IMO.




Again you fail to answer the question. The question is what, exactly, precludes, as in disallows, a single state solution?

quote:
Hamas is seeking to turn all of Israel and the Palestinian territory into a single Islamic State. The Hamas Charter (Covenant) is not ambiguous about this stated goal at all.

Again with the Hamas. Again, does Hamas represent all Palestinians? Do settlers represent all Israeli Jews?

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 18 June 2007 10:30 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:

By the way, was there anything about ending the supplying of Palestinian contras with weapons? Anything about ending the bulldozing of Palestinian homes? Anything about ending the ethnic cleansing in the West Bank? Anything about the endless daily harassment and humilations of Palestinians trying to travel, see the doctor, give birth to their children, etc., in the West Bank? Anything about ending the imprisonment of children? Anything about releasing the democratically elected Palestinian Members of Parliament, including Cabinet Ministers, after a year of imprisonment? Anything about putting a stop to the Jewish only roads?


You seem to have lined up what you believe Israel has to do towards achieving the one-state goal. What would the Palestinians have to do?


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 18 June 2007 10:32 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

Again with the Hamas. Again, does Hamas represent all Palestinians?
[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

Politically, Hamas seems to think so. The Palestinians, by majority, elected Hamas.


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 18 June 2007 10:34 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, and the Israelis by majority elected Sharon and the Americans by majority elected Bush who then systematically crushed a nation and killed 650,000 human beings. What should any of that tell us about Palestinians, Israelis, and Americans?
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 18 June 2007 10:38 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
To the question:

Again you fail to answer the question. The question is what, exactly, precludes, as in disallows, a single state solution?

My answer:
Considering what has been at play on the ground now and for the last several decades, and the history of the region, the only thing I would see allowing for a bi-national, secular democratic state with complete equality for all is a mass sprinking of pixie dust that would cause everyone involved to join hands and render the following

"I'd like to teach the world to sing..."

But maybe i'm just a cynic.


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 18 June 2007 10:45 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
...the Americans by majority elected Bush who then systematically crushed a nation and killed 650,000 human beings.

I thought the consensus from many on Babble is that Bush was not elected, at least in 2000 and maybe even in 2004...

From 2000:

Bush popular vote: 50,456,002 47.87%
Gore popular vote: 50,999,897 48.38%

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: Joel_Goldenberg ]

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: Joel_Goldenberg ]


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 18 June 2007 10:49 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So you don't have an answer? You can point to anything that would preclude a single state solution? Nothing at all?

That is understandable. You don't want to use the "r" word. You don't want to acknowledge that what precludes a single state solution is Israeli racism because that would entail acknowledging your support of the racist policies that enable Israel to exist among a sea of Arabs as a Jewish state as South Africa once existed among a sea of black Africans as a white state.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 18 June 2007 10:53 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
So you don't have an answer? You can point to anything that would preclude a single state solution?

Yes, what has been at play on the ground now and for the last several decades, and the history of the region.


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 18 June 2007 10:55 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
quote: An open door policy on Jewish immigration until the end of time so that WHEN the next Holocaust happens, Jews all over the world are guaranteed sanctuary.


Why only Jews? Why not any persecuted minority anywhere?


If you are suggesting that all countries in the world drop all immigration restrictions that anyone we allowed to live anywhere - that's fine but highly unrealistic.

There are clearly two peoples who have a clear (if conflicting) historic claim to the land between the Meditterranean and the Jordan river. I don't think anyone would go along with saying that if any member of Falun Gong feels persecuted in China, they should feel free to hop on the first available flight to Tel Aviv!


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 18 June 2007 10:56 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

\You don't want to acknowledge that what precludes a single state solution is Israeli racism because that would entail acknowledging your support of the racist policies that enable Israel to exist among a sea of Arabs as a Jewish state...

Do you mean to say that without these policies (I choose not to call them racist) , Israel would have been wiped out long ago?


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 18 June 2007 10:58 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So is it also "racist" for Bosnia to exist as a Muslim country in a sea of Christians?
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 18 June 2007 11:06 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
So is it also "racist" for Bosnia to exist as a Muslim country in a sea of Christians?

Also, is Quebec racist because, as the supporters of the laws have said, its language legislation restricting English enable the province to maintain its French-speaking milieu in a sea of English (as in North America)?

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: Joel_Goldenberg ]

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: Joel_Goldenberg ]


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 18 June 2007 11:08 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's "interesting" to read the comments about demanding a more secular approach from Hamas, from the usual suspects, in the light of the following quoted from the Angry Arab, in regard to the secret Fatah files found in Gaza:

quote:
World Net Daily's Aaron Klein first broke the story of the document stash yesterday, publishing an interview with a spokesman for the Hamas allied Popular Resistance Committee, Muhammed Abdel-El. He told Mr. Klein, "The CIA files we seized, which include documents, CDs, taped conversations, and videos, are more important than all the American weapons we obtained the last two days as we took over the traitor Fatah's positions." A CIA spokesman yesterday declined to comment. But a former CIA operations officer who worked in the Middle East, Robert Baer, said it was a major blow to Fatah, the party founded in 1966 by Yasser Arafat that America sought to prop up during the Oslo process as the CIA and Egyptian security services trained its members in the hopes that they would take action against jihadists such as Hamas. "They are going to identify Fatah with the CIA. Fatah equals CIA is not a good selling point. They are going to show a record of training, spying on Hamas, that's about it. It's what we all knew.

Here is the kicker:

quote:
But the point is they have undermined the secular Palestinians for a long time. No one wants to be publicly associated with the CIA in the Middle East, except for maybe the Albanians," Mr. Baer said.

So there you have it. They've undermined the secular PLO and Fatah. And the usual suspects here on babble make calls for the secularization of Hamas.

If this was wrestling I would call it a tag-team.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 18 June 2007 11:11 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Yes, what has been at play on the ground now and for the last several decades, and the history of the region.

That is not an answer. What, precisely is at play on the ground? What "history" actually precludes Jews and Arabs from living together?

quote:
If you are suggesting that all countries in the world drop all immigration restrictions that anyone we allowed to live anywhere - that's fine but highly unrealistic.

Why a restriction to Jews only? If you want to narrow who can claim citizenship in a single state, why not Jews and Arabs if not just anyone at all?

quote:
Do you mean to say that without these policies (I choose not to call them racist) , Israel would have been wiped out long ago?

Is that what you think? I made no such statement. Is it your argument that Israel's racist policies are based on a paranoid fear of their Arab neighbours?

quote:
So is it also "racist" for Bosnia to exist as a Muslim country in a sea of Christians?

In what way Bosnia comparable to Israel? Is it The Islamic State? Does it occupy lands of another people? Is it regularly settling those lands? Does it have Bosnian only roads, marriage laws, and pass laws? Does it brutalize, torture, and kill, these other people it occupies? I am not sure of your reference.

quote:
Also, is Quebec racist because, as the supporters of the laws have said, its language legislation restricting English enable the province to maintain its French-speaking milieu in a sea of English (as in North America)?

And it goes from bad to stupid.

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 18 June 2007 11:14 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

And it goes from bad to stupid.

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


In the case of Quebec, why?


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 18 June 2007 11:19 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Again, in what way is Quebec comparable to Israel?

The truth is you can't openly or honestly defend Israel's racist policies towards Palestinians. You are like meat eaters who enjoy a hamburger but don't want to know how or by what means it arrived on your plate. So instead of dealing with truths or examining your own conscience and complicity in supporting a regime that is racist as well as ruthlessly cruel and corrupt, you play silly games.

If your conscience can accept that, okay. That is fine. But it strips away the mystery of the Good German.

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 18 June 2007 11:21 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Frustrated Mess wrote:

"That is not an answer. What, precisely is at play on the ground? What "history" actually precludes Jews and Arabs from living together?"

Your second question is too broad, as Jews and Arabs currently do live together in the current State of Israel, if not perfectly happily. The decades of conflict, antipathy generated by years of terrorist attacks, wars and anti-Israel propaganda from the Palestinian leadership, and yes bad conditions in areas like Gaza, would in my mind preclude such a 180-degree turn.


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 18 June 2007 11:22 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Again, in what way is Quebec comparable to Israel?

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


Two words: Identity preservation.


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 18 June 2007 11:23 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The decades of conflict, antipathy generated by years of terrorist attacks, wars and anti-Israel propaganda from the Palestinian leadership, and yes bad conditions in areas like Gaza, would in my mind preclude such a 180-degree turn.

Oh, I see. Arabs bad. Israeli Jews omitted from any culpability. I think that proves my point.

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 18 June 2007 11:25 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
NY Times: Mr. Abbas issued decrees outlawing the armed militias of Hamas and suspending clauses in the Palestinian Basic Law, which effectively serves as a constitution, that call for parliamentary approval of the new government. Hamas has a firm majority in the 132-seat Palestinian parliament, though 40 of its legislators are currently in Israeli jails.

Ah, now there's a possible solution. What if Israel arrests ALL of the Hamas parliamentarians, ensures that they are all "shot while attempting to escape", and then Fatah can have the legitimate "majority" that they so desperately need? I mean, who gives a shit about constitutional niceties and parliamentary requirements when the men of the gold-plated bathroom fixtures are in trouble?


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 18 June 2007 11:26 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Two words: Identity preservation.

I see. So Quebec is doing what to whom in that interest? How many Anglophones are in Quebec jails? How many Anglophone children have been killed in the past year? Where is the wall being erected? What agricultural land is being bulldozed? What land is being stolen and settled by Quebeckers? What God's name is this all being done in?

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 18 June 2007 11:58 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I guess Anglophone Quebecers are a lot more willing to "go with the flow" than are Palestinians.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 18 June 2007 12:14 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The banality of evil is alive and well and masquerading as progressive, well meaning, political thought. But it kills, enslaves, and dehumanizes as efficiently as ever. Have a nice day.

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 18 June 2007 12:19 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yea, no kidding. But it's useful to identify evil anyway.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 18 June 2007 12:29 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The banality of evil is alive and well and masquerading as progressive, well meaning, political thought. But it kills, enslaves, and dehumanizes as efficiently as ever.

What a crude way of describing the policies of most Muslim countries towards women and gays and lesbians.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
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posted 18 June 2007 12:46 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey Skookum! I swing by this site just now, and Holy Frickin Moly! We got em all at least talkin about a one-state solution!

It's amazing what politely (which I admit is not my forte) asking a simple question over and over and over and over and over and over again can accomplish (patting myself on the back right now with a great sense of relief).

Step one achieved. Now, on to step two. While we got em a-talkin bout the idea, we still need to address the one-sidedness and denial of culpability that apologists all suffer from.

The Stockman wrote:

quote:
...if there were ever to be a "single state solution" - Hamas would have to agree to an UNamendable consitution that would include such things as the following:

1. TOTAL equality between men and women
2. TOTAL equality for gays and lesbians
3. TOTAL separation of church and state with no possibility of any religions ever being able to influence public policy
4. TOTAL disarmament and rejection of violence
5. An open door policy on Jewish immigration until the end of time so that WHEN the next Holocaust happens, Jews all over the world are guaranteed sanctuary.

If the leaders of Hamas agreed unconditionally to all these points - it would be a point of departure for negotiations that might last 20 or 30 years.


This is generally skookum stuff! However, the Stocker doesn't mention that the religious fanatics and fascistic hyper-capitalists that currently run the Israeli state would have to pretty much agree to these types of terms as well (or be replaced by those who would). Both side would have to agree to these terms before any progress could be made.

Now could it be possible to get the Stocker to actually recognize this fact?! Could we, Stockholmer? Could we?


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 18 June 2007 12:51 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here are the questions I posed in the OP of the thread I started on the "One State Solution" issue. It was suggested by Frustrated Mess and Joel Goldenberg (yes, I actually got those two to AGREE on something...who'da thunk it? ) that I post them here as well.

1)This approach would require a major reconciliation project, a project that would likely take decades. Do any of you see any sign, at present, that this could be started any time soon?

2)The "Maximalists" on BOTH sides...Hamas and those more violent than Hamas on the Palestinian side, the settlers, the ultra-religious/ultra-nationalists and the increasingly crazed ranks of the IDF. What's to be done about them? They need to be started on decaf and some serious primo dope, to say the least. What's going to calm them down to the point that they won't make everyone else live at their mercy.

3)The "transfer" issue...how do we avoid getting anybody kicked out in large numbers, since expulsions on either side would do more to keep violence going than anybody else(we could assume that the weapons stockpiles of the IDF, for example, could sustain a guerrilla war that could go on for many years, and Hamas could get access to enough ordnance from various sources to do the same.) This is related to question 2, of course.

4)The "religious vs. secular" issue. Related to the maximalist question to a degree, but independent of it as well. How could you get the religious crazies on both sides to give up on forcing everybody to submit to their OWN particular creed(There might also be the question of what all the U.S. evangelicals, many of whom know their way around a gun or two, might do if they thought their "last days" scenario was being disrupted.
The One State would, logically, HAVE to be secular and totally neutral on religious question. Is this at all possible in this particular war?

5)Water distribution. The hidden cause of much of the Israeli/Palestinian tension. How to resolve that to everybody's tolerance, if not outright satisfaction.

I'm not asking these questions to attack the One State idea, but I was wondering how people here might answer them.

And it is NOT acceptable to say "Well, the land is Palestinian, so it's just up to THEM how this comes out". The One State would have to provide the Jewish people with the same level of security and protection from antisemitic attack that they now believe Israel provides them with, in addition to providing equality, self-determination and justice for the Palestinians.
This is NOT a minor consideration, and "breaking eggs to make the omelet" is not an appropriate analogy when dealing with a community whose ancestors have been turned into omelet fillings for two milennia.

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 18 June 2007 12:55 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Israeli supreme court has already ruled in favour of same sex marriage and women have had equal status in Israel since the beginning.

I have a better idea for a two-state solution for Israel/Palestine:

Why not have one state for Jews are Muslims who are secular and believe in strict separation of church and state and pluralism and equality of sexes and sexualities. They can have Tel Aviv, Haifa, Eilat, all the beaches etc...

Then have another state for religious freaks of all religions. We can take all the ultra-Orthodox Jews and all the Hamas-supporting Muslim religious fundamentalists and put them all behind the wall Israel built and surround them with barbed wire and let them live in hate and misery for ever, while all the secular Jews and Muslims go to topless beaches and shop for clothes and get jobs in the high-tech sector.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 18 June 2007 01:02 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Send the Christian Rightists there too, while you're at it.

It could be a theme park.


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
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posted 18 June 2007 01:13 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Then have another state for religious freaks of all religions.

Isn't there already a state for these types. I think it's called the United States of America.

(and they even have their own theme park there too!)

PS: Sorry Ken.

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: Steppenwolf Allende ]


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 18 June 2007 07:21 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No problem Steppers.

Still, our own theme park could have a Holyland branch. Sort of like Euro Disney but with D-9 Cats and Qassams.


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 18 June 2007 07:34 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Uri Avnery provides some useful definitions in his recent Gush Shalom article - Crocodile Tears

1. "moderate" : obedient to American orders
2. "pragmatic" : obedient to Israeli orders

And some context:

quote:
Avnery: The American aim is clear. President Bush has chosen a local leader for every Muslim country, who will rule it under American protection and follow American orders. In Iraq, in Lebanon, in Afghanistan, and also in Palestine.

Hamas believes that the man marked for this job in Gaza is Mohammed Dahlan. For years it has looked as if he was being groomed for this position. The American and Israeli media have been singing his praises, describing him as a strong, determined leader, "moderate" (i.e. obedient to American orders) and "pragmatic" (i.e. obedient to Israeli orders). And the more the Americans and Israelis lauded Dahlan, the more they undermined his standing among the Palestinians. Especially as Dahlan was away in Cairo, as if waiting for his men to receive the promised arms.


Avnery points out: "The organizations of Abbas and Dahlan melted like snow in the Palestinian sun."

quote:
How could the American and Israeli generals miscalculate so badly? They are able to think only in strictly military terms: so-and-so many soldiers, so-and-so many machine guns. But in interior struggles in particular, quantitative calculations are secondary. The morale of the fighters and public sentiment are far more important. The members of the Fatah organizations do not know what they are fighting for. The Gaza population supports Hamas, because they believe that it is fighting the Israeli occupier. Their opponents look like collaborators of the occupation. The American statements about their intention of arming them with Israeli weapons have finally condemned them.

That is not a matter of Islamic fundamentalism. In this respect all nations are the same: they hate collaborators of a foreign occupier, whether they are Norwegian (Quisling), French (Petain) or Palestinian.


But to those who do not view the Palestinians as human, such observations are lost upon them.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 18 June 2007 07:36 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maybe we should get a bit more imaginative. And suggest one country on the Medeteranian east shore. Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Palestine and Jordan.

Put enough chaos together and it assumes a certain uniformity of culture.


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 18 June 2007 09:07 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good statement by Alexa.

quote:
Instead of seeing the unity government as a unique opportunity to advance the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, the Conservative government shamefully boycotted, undermining the advocates of compromise, compounding political divisions within Gaza and the West Bank and increasing the insecurity plaguing the lives of Palestinians and Israelis.

The only viable government in Palestine is one that represents all Palestinians. Peace cannot be achieved without Hamas at the table. It is a fraud to pretend otherwise.



From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 18 June 2007 09:14 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, eloquent statement. She has really shone in this role IMO.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 19 June 2007 08:22 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

Oh, I see. Arabs bad. Israeli Jews omitted from any culpability. I think that proves my point.

Well, many of the other posts omit the culpability of the Palestinian leadership, so a balance has been achieved.


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 19 June 2007 08:39 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It is hard to blame Hamas, in my opinion, they did the right thing to take out Abbas suport when they still could. Afterall Abbas was being armed and supported by Israel and USA, if they had waited much longer the blood bath probably would have been far worse. What would they have gained by recognizing Israel when Israel does not recognize them as the elected reps of the Palestinians?
From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Max Bialystock
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posted 19 June 2007 09:08 AM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
Yes, eloquent statement. She has really shone in this role IMO.

I'm sure it will drive the Zionists nuts because according to them even being in the same room with someone from Hamas without spitting in their face is "collaborating" or "appeasing" Hamas.

McDonough has been pretty good as foreign affairs critic. Layton however has been dreadful on this issue. He's pretty much sold out his Left credentials as leader.

[ 19 June 2007: Message edited by: Max Bialystock ]

[ 19 June 2007: Message edited by: Max Bialystock ]


From: North York | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
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posted 19 June 2007 01:15 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
McDonough has been pretty good as foreign affairs critic. Layton however has been dreadful on this issue. He's pretty much sold out his Left credentials as leader.

She has done a fairly good job (with a few fall-throughs, like on Haiti, but no one's perfect).

To kill two birds with one stone, this goes to show all the hurling BS on that other thread about how the NDP is totally spineless or in the same camp as the corporatist parties on the Israeli-Palestinian issues is just that: BS.

It also shows the NDP does actually have at east some grasp of the subject of imperialism--at least as good (probably better than) the various loony fringe "left" groups that talk about it a lot but can't seem to rationalize it in any practical way.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 19 June 2007 01:27 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steppenwolf Allende:

It also shows the NDP does actually have at east some grasp of the subject of imperialism--at least as good (probably better than) the various loony fringe "left" groups that talk about it a lot but can't seem to rationalize it in any practical way.

Well, being better than loonies isn't much of a recommendation.

Please let's not forget that the NDP supported the shameful cut-off of funds in 2006. That didn't show much grasp of anything, did it?

When I praise Alexa, it is not because of her perfection - it is because I am quite conscious of the alternatives vying for a very different line within the party.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
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posted 19 June 2007 01:36 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Please let's not forget that the NDP supported the shameful cut-off of funds in 2006.

What funds? (not familiar with this issue--or I could be, just that there's so many cuts on everything everywhere these days, it's hard to keep track).


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 19 June 2007 01:43 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steppenwolf Allende:

What funds?


Direct funding to the Palestinian Authority after the election of Hamas.

The NDP supported Harper's move in a very "diplomatic" way (I will resist using the word hypocritical), trying to sit on the fence - but the one thing they did not do was call for the funding to be reinstated.

NDP statement of March 29, 2006.

The consequences for Palestine have not exactly been beneficial.

ETA: Yes, that statement was issued over Alexa's name also. But I'd like to think the slaughter and invasion and aggression and civil war of the past year have helped to soften her approach.

[ 19 June 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 19 June 2007 06:52 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What funds? Ask Sufa Arafat. Yasser kept the Palestinian people in poverty for 40 years as a political tool while he and his henchmen stole everything they could.
From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 19 June 2007 07:26 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jester:
What funds? Ask Sufa Arafat. Yasser kept the Palestinian people in poverty for 40 years as a political tool while he and his henchmen stole everything they could.

How nice. Harper cut off funding as part of the battle against corruption in the PA. Canada's New Ethical Government extends even further than previously imagined.

Anyway, Steppenwolf, do you recall now about the NDP support for stopping payments to the PA after Hamas was elected?


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
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posted 19 June 2007 10:37 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Anyway, Steppenwolf, do you recall now about the NDP support for stopping payments to the PA after Hamas was elected?

Actually, no, I don't. I wasn't even aware that the Canadian government provided any funding to it in the first place.

Obviously got under my radar screen. I'll try to find out more over the next few days.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 21 June 2007 09:02 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I believe this is it:

NDP statement

[ 21 June 2007: Message edited by: Joel_Goldenberg ]


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 21 June 2007 09:54 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Joel, that is the same link that unionist has already provided.

The NDP statement is from March 2006. Since that time, Israel invaded Lebanon, killing hundreds of civilians, including a number of Canadian civilians and a Canadian peacekeeper, successfully bombed Gaza including the water supply, arrested around half of the elected Hamas PA Parliamentarians, etc., etc., effectively killing the Road Map to peace.

Now we have the spectacle of well-financed Palestinian Quisling militias and the men of the gold plated bathroom fixtures (Fatah), connected to the CIA through training, etc., fighting a proxy fight against Hamas. But shame on Hamas who doesn't recognize Israel!

The NDP statement makes specific reference to this now meaningless "Road Map" and recognition of Israel (which "Israel" we're not sure, though ... it may or may not include the new territory carved out of the West Bank and protected behind the separation wall, territory that is continuing to grow and grow ...) as sensible conditions from which things can move forward. Talk about out of date policy. However, I think unionist is being a little unfair to the NDP here. The policy statement, by itself, doesn't directly support the Conservative policy but rather calls for re-directing the aid to civilian organizations instead of Hamas. Splitting hairs, perhaps.

I'm sure if Israel tortured the Hamas Parliamentarians that have been imprisoned for the last year then the latter would "recognize" their torturers. But the road map still just goes in circles anyway. I don't know how the latter can be seen as the fault of the Palestinians. It's as clear as ever where the pressure needs to be put to move towards a peaceful settlement.

Instead, we have a game with words.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 22 June 2007 09:08 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A visit to Fatah's torture chamber in Gaza.

quote:
The headquarters of the Fatah-controlled security force in Gaza have been open to the public since last Thursday. Every day is open house now.

For years the complex was a symbol of the horror disseminated by the security forces that reported directly to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. This is where Hamas men were taken after Fatah had arrested them. Some of those lucky enough to be eventually released reported that they had been tortured. Others disappeared forever.


Yes, but don't forget Hamas won't "recognize" Israel. Barbarians. Therefore, they can't be reasoned with. I guess that's why the US, Israel and now Canada support Abbas and Fatah. The ones "we" support are more "reasonable".


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 22 June 2007 09:23 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
US columnist and Israeli apologist Charles Krauthammer suggests turning Gaza into a "concentration camp". Well, Gaza is already an outdoor prison in the view of most objective observers. Why not cut the fuel supply and the power as well? Without power, the water supply won't work. And so on.

quote:
Krauthammer: With Hamas now clearly in charge, Israel should declare that it will tolerate no more rocket fire -- that the next Qassam will be answered with a cutoff of gasoline shipments. This should bring road traffic in Gaza to a halt within days and make it increasingly difficult to ferry around missiles and launchers.

If that fails to concentrate the mind, the next step should be to cut off electricity.


The choice of words is no accident and the odious message is abundantly clear.

"Last Chance" for Abbas.

[ 22 June 2007: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 22 June 2007 09:34 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
US columnist and Israeli apologist Charles Krauthammer suggests turning Gaza into a "concentration camp".

Gee, what would that entail? Changing the name?


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 22 June 2007 10:44 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
One of the major reasons for the fast-spreading influence of militant Islamic groups like Hezbullah, Hamas, and Taliban has been their success in uprooting the Muslim world’s endemic corruption and nepotism. We are so used to Islamists being demonized as “terrorists” that their highly effective and popular social accomplishments are rarely noted. In fact, their appeal and popularity is based primarily on their welfare and incorruptibility.

Islamic militants insist the west exploits their nations by keeping deeply corrupt regimes in power. In exchange for protection from their own people and neighbors, and fabulous wealth, these authoritarian Arab regimes – always termed “moderates” by western media – sell oil on the cheap to the west and do its bidding. US-installed governments in Lebanon, Palestine, Iraq, Somalia, and Afghanistan are all noted for egregious corruption, including secret payoffs from Washington to their leaders.


Eric Margolis: The mother of all scandals


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 22 June 2007 11:21 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Such comprador elites and business interests exist in countries like Canada as well. That's how the global imperialist system often works to prevent or slow positive change from taking place.

The Angry Arab quoted Robert Fisk when the latter noted the gold bathroom fixtures of some of the corrupt Fatah officials. The "men of the gold-plated bathroom fixtures" has a nice ring to it, eh?


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged

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