I'm all about childbirth (see my profile, no, really, I really am ALL about childbirth), so reading any article that begins with the assumption that childbirth is excruciating already unhinges me somewhat, but as a feminist, any article that promotes the active dissolution of women's personal power leaves me chewing my mousepad in frustration.

Let me be clear. I work in perinatal health. My day-to-day job involves childbirth, either teaching it or attending it. I'm not a stranger to how childbirth looks and as a mother, I'm no stranger to how it feels.

Carol Burnett did not do childbirth justice when she said it's like taking your bottom lip and pulling it over your head. It's sort of like that, except that you have the better part of a day to accomplish it and she didn't specify which bottom lip she meant. Women who describe labour like strong menstrual cramps either have some kind of monthly cycle or they have practised the great art of the understatement. Labour is more like having someone repeatedly back their truck over your abdomen.

But labour contractions are nothing more than a woman's own personal power. There's no truck involved in childbirth, there's you, your baby, and your body's own massive surges of hormones and chemicals. Does it hurt? You betcha. Is it a bad hurt? No. And it shouldn't be because a bad hurt is a sign that something has gone wrong.

That article really bugged me. As long as we promote a culture of fear around childbirth, women are going to remain afraid of their body's own natural and normal power. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you must have an unmedicated birth to prove you're the right kind of woman. What I'm saying is that if you go towards labour with the idea that you're going to fail, you probably will - and that kind of attitude spills over.

I think it's a real tragedy that there are women who can't be bothered to see what sort of things their body can do. I think it's a bigger tragedy that these same women have chosen not to see how incredible their own personal power can be.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Anyway, welcome to babble Charlotte. We're not tepid at all.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
The Times Colonist is a stale, sterile and starchy "news" paper and might be better called "The Colonial" or something like that. Awful. When I'm on the island I prefer to buy the mainland, i.e., Vancouver, papers. The TC is just so...tepid - like cold tea or something.

Anyway, welcome to babble Charlotte. We're not tepid at all.

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Thanks. I've noticed there's not a lot of tepid opinions here.

I'm originally from Halifax, which is to say I love a good cup of strong tea... it keeps the jaw lubricated well enough so you can gossip.

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Originally posted by RealityBites:

But we are remarkably like pulling your lower lip over your head.

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Which lip?

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Originally posted by RealityBites:
Lower, lower.

Our upper lower lips are too busy flapping to be positioned.

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I can appreciate this...

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Originally posted by charlottemillington:
I was just sent an article that made my hair set on fire: Labour peace: Delivering a baby doesn't have to be an excruciating experience

I'm all about childbirth (see my profile, no, really, I really am ALL about childbirth), so reading any article that begins with the assumption that childbirth is excruciating already unhinges me somewhat, but as a feminist, any article that promotes the active dissolution of women's personal power leaves me chewing my mousepad in frustration.

Let me be clear. I work in perinatal health. My day-to-day job involves childbirth, either teaching it or attending it. I'm not a stranger to how childbirth looks and as a mother, I'm no stranger to how it feels.

Carol Burnett did not do childbirth justice when she said it's like taking your bottom lip and pulling it over your head. It's sort of like that, except that you have the better part of a day to accomplish it and she didn't specify which bottom lip she meant. Women who describe labour like strong menstrual cramps either have some kind of monthly cycle or they have practised the great art of the understatement. Labour is more like having someone repeatedly back their truck over your abdomen.

But labour contractions are nothing more than a woman's own personal power. There's no truck involved in childbirth, there's you, your baby, and your body's own massive surges of hormones and chemicals. Does it hurt? You betcha. Is it a bad hurt? No. And it shouldn't be because a bad hurt is a sign that something has gone wrong.

That article really bugged me. As long as we promote a culture of fear around childbirth, women are going to remain afraid of their body's own natural and normal power. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you must have an unmedicated birth to prove you're the right kind of woman. What I'm saying is that if you go towards labour with the idea that you're going to fail, you probably will - and that kind of attitude spills over.

I think it's a real tragedy that there are women who can't be bothered to see what sort of things their body can do. I think it's a bigger tragedy that these same women have chosen not to see how incredible their own personal power can be.

Charlotte

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That's a truly horrifying article.

The part that really bugs me is this:

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such as whether receiving an epidural early in labour increases the risk of cesarean or forceps delivery. (It doesn't.)

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That's a LIE! It does increase your chances of C-section, and the earlier the epi, the greater the chances! Granted, my youngest is 5 years old, but the stats and studies I read at the time (I do research for a living and tend to research the hell out of everything important to me) absolutely DO NOT support that statement.

I respect the right of women to make choices that I wouldn't -- including allowing an anaesthesiologist to muck with their spinal column -- but I have a great deal of difficulty with that kind of misinformation. Informed choice is the only real choice.

Personally, I think that the level of pain in labour is at least partly related to your frame of mind. I didn't find labour that hard, but I'd already come to the conclusion that it was going to be a lot like a marathon -- hard, sometimes uncomfortable, sometimes painful work. But not bad pain, working pain. And it was. I think it would help women a lot if we could get over this culture of fear about giving birth...

On one hand, you have my mother, a woman of great courage and strength and wisdom who bore five children. My mother, who swears up and down that while childbirth hurts, it doesn't hurt that much, it's almost a good hurt, and that your body will prepare itself, it was meant to do this. I really want to believe her.

On the other hand, you have my contemporaries (friends and co-workers). Of the half-dozen babies born in the last couple of years, three were C-sections (one was problems in delivery, one turned breech a week before and couldn't be turned back, and one was pre-planned and scheduled since conception) and three very long, painful labours (two with forcepts and suction), all with epidural. The part I find confusing (and scary!) is that my friends with the epi's still complained of the unendurable pain and agony. If it hurts this bad with the drugs, how is it possible without?

Truth is, I would love a 'natural' delivery, and have even speculated about the whole midwife and delivery at home thing. But, I am a wimp when it comes to pain. I'll admit it. I make my dentist freeze me ear to ear before he's allowed to pull out any drill-like object.

Add to that, the medical establishment, and my family Dr. in particular, seem to be very pro-drug. My Dr., since finding out that we were thinking along these paths, now starts quipping about how much labour hurts. Nothing hurts as bad. Burning a plantar's wart off my heel? "Doesn't hurt nearly as much as labour!" The healing of a hole in my arm that used to have a suspicious mole? "Doesn't hurt as much as labour!" I know it doesn't hurt as much, but all this constant reminder of PAIN PAIN PAIN is a bit overwhelming.

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hard, sometimes uncomfortable, sometimes painful work. But not bad pain, working pain. And it was. I think it would help women a lot if we could get over this culture of fear about giving birth...

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This is really interesting to me. As long as I can remember, I've refused to even consider the idea of bearing children myself, in large part because of the pain and disfiguration and incapacity that I associate with pregnancy and birthing. Whether it's objectively true or not, I tell people that the foundation of my anti-children stance stems greatly from my first sex-ed class: the teacher popped in a video at the front of the room without much comment which showed a woman, from the torso down, giving birth. A bloody, swollen birth lacking any beauty in my ten year old mind. I remember feeling angry that for some reason I'd be expected to go through this, purely because of my bad luck at being born female.

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On the other hand, you have my contemporaries (friends and co-workers). Of the half-dozen babies born in the last couple of years, three were C-sections (one was problems in delivery, one turned breech a week before and couldn't be turned back, and one was pre-planned and scheduled since conception) and three very long, painful labours (two with forcepts and suction), all with epidural. The part I find confusing (and scary!) is that my friends with the epi's still complained of the unendurable pain and agony. If it hurts this bad with the drugs, how is it possible without?

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In all likelihood, these births have one thing in common and that's obstetricians. Those guys (most of them are men) sure know how to screw up a natural process before it's even begun. I know there are those who feel a sense of loyalty to their OBs but I think that there has been a lot of material and research stating clearly over a long period of time that the more and earlier the interventions in pregnancy and delivery, the more interventions become "necessary".

My recommendation for any pregnant woman would be to see a licensed midwife, even if one doesn't decide to stay in their care. Their philosophy is woman and baby centered and yet they have the knowledge to really determine when medical interventions are called for, as they sometimes are.

Señor Mamitalinda was more than a little overwhelmed during the 24 hour labour and didn't know what to expect, and kept falling asleep toward the end (WAKE UP AND HOLD MY HAND, DAMMIT), and obviously I was fairly overwhelmed myself. The pain was tolerable if I thought it would be over in a couple of hours. My problem was that I got to eight hours and they checked and said that it would be another six hours and then they checked and said it would be ANOTHER six hours and I cried out for drugs. The "unendingness" of it all was what I couldn't handle. Later, of course, it turned out it wasn't ending because Papaitolindo's umbilical cord was wrapped around his foot, preventing him from descending properly.

http://www.wftv.com/irresistible/6904684/detail.html

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Eloysa Vasquez, who uses a wheelchair and had two miscarriages, suffers from Type 3 osteogenesis imperfecta, a disorder that makes bones soft and brittle.

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According to the university, one in only 25,000 to 50,000 births are to a mother with osteogenesis imperfecta, and even fewer involve moms with the severe Type 3 form.

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Vasquez gained 20 pounds during pregnancy and delivered the 3 pound, 7 ounce baby on Jan. 24 at Stanford University's Lucile Packard Children's Hospital.

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[ 16 February 2006: Message edited by: kiwi_chick ]

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Any advice/help for a middle aged prospective new mother surrounded by epi boosters and still dreaming of having her children at home (or at least being able to get up and walk around after) would be greatly appreciated.

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I'm going to preface this with the fact that I am an unbelievably stubborn person who had really great pregnancies. I know this isn't the case for everybody.

I had my first baby in hospital, with a doctor assisting, and I was pressured into having labour induced. It was a total runaway labour. Most of it wasn't that bad. Slight cramps after the induction, and they sent me home. They got stronger as we sat around and watched movies, and were 1 minute on, 1 minute off for a long time. The blond guy kept calling the hospital to see if we should go back, but they kept telling him that they didn't think I was in "real" labour, since it was the first try with the induction, then later that, if I could talk through a contraction, it wasn't urgent. We finally decided to just go in. Good thing, too.

Most of the labour, although I'd taken a birthing class prepping for a med-less labour and birth, I was waiting for the awful pain. It didn't arrive. I had one moment of wavering when I was in hospital, after being told by a resident that I was likely 5 hours from giving birth. I was actually in transition. I told my sweetie I didn't think I could do this for another 5 hours, so he asked me if I could hold on for 30 minutes. I said okay, 30 minutes I could do... I was pushing in 30 minutes, and Ms B was born 45 minutes later. If somebody could have told me that that moment was the worst of it, I would have been just fine. If the blond guy had been squeamish and not as committed to a drug-free birth, it might not have come out that way.

My second daughter was born at home. It was a shortish labour (7 hours), with a very short pushing stage. I think a large part of that had to do with being in my own space and feeling completely safe, supported and in control.

The things I'd recommend are having a supportive doctor/midwife; making sure your birth coach/partner is on the same page as you; being well-informed and assertive with medical people; get your head in the right space and getting past fear, because fear will hurt you more than anything -- tension is the enemy, it makes you work against your body instead of with it.

Lastly, being physically fit before pregnancy and continuing to exercise throughout pregnancy (walk, swim, do whatever it takes) is incredibly important because strength and endurance will make your labour easier to handle. Think of it as training for the most physically demanding sport out there: Motherhood!

PS -- I danced from the delivery room to the mat ward after baby #1!

PPS -- My mom is a total wimp about pain, and she told me that "it's not so bad" -- even after pushing a 10-pounder through a very tiny set of hips.

[ 16 February 2006: Message edited by: Zoot ]

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This is really interesting to me. As long as I can remember, I've refused to even consider the idea of bearing children myself, in large part because of the pain and disfiguration and incapacity that I associate with pregnancy and birthing.

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Originally posted by shaolin:

This is really interesting to me. As long as I can remember, I've refused to even consider the idea of bearing children myself, in large part because of the pain and disfiguration and incapacity that I associate with pregnancy and birthing. Whether it's objectively true or not, I tell people that the foundation of my anti-children stance stems greatly from my first sex-ed class: the teacher popped in a video at the front of the room without much comment which showed a woman, from the torso down, giving birth. A bloody, swollen birth lacking any beauty in my ten year old mind. I remember feeling angry that for some reason I'd be expected to go through this, purely because of my bad luck at being born female.

Irrational: yes. But then, I was ten. Nonetheless, the view has been refined and added to, but it still holds to some degree...

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For me, it was being nominated the 'birth partner' of a friend. She was 29, I was 19. I went to a few classes with her. There were videos. The blood, the indignity, the idiocy of the looks on the faces of women, the pain. But mostly the indignity turned me off forever.

Have you ever noticed that when you anticipate extreme pain, it's actually worse? Could that be what some of us are trying to get across here?

And I'm sure that, given your attitude, you'll make the sort of unsupportive partner who should stay the hell away from the L&D ward.

[ 17 February 2006: Message edited by: Zoot ]

Then came transition ... fortunately, the nurse said that it would be likely short, given the speed at which this whole thing was galloping.

At 6am I held my firstborn, my one and only daughter in my arms.

This did not happen to me, but a friend had a strong orgasm when she gave birth to her second child. Yeah, she knew what to expect and she rode those contractions with confidence!

[ 17 February 2006: Message edited by: deBeauxOs ]

You've all mentionned the whole state of mind concept in labour, so I thought I'd add in some more food for thought.

Labour pain, like all pain, comes in two forms: physiological and psychological. You can't do much about physiological pain. It's gonna happen whether you like it or not and it's a GOOD thing because without physiological pain, you wouldn't know something is happening. (Can you imagine the damage we could do to a newborn if they were born without warning?) So, when labour happens, there's going to be some sensations. Some women will call it pain, others will call it surges. Some women won't feel anything at all and other women will feel everything acutely. Physiological pain is so personal, about the only thing we know about it is that we'll all experience it uniquely.

In labour, it's the psychological pain that gets you. As Zoot points out, when you anticipate pain, it gets worse. In the childbirth scene, it's a part of a cycle called the fear-tension-pain cycle: you fear the pain so you tense up and that makes it feel worse. It's this cycle that has had women learning self-hyposis, breathing and other coping techniques. All of these are highly effective if you take the time to learn and practice, something that often doesn't happen in a four-week childbirth prep class, but can happen if you work at it outside class. They don't remove the physiological pain, but they can help you deal with the psychological pain, which often makes the physiological pain bearable.

Labour is truly nothing more than your own body at its most powerful. It's why I love my career: because when women harness this power, they walk away from their birth like Amazons. Harnessing this power is more than learning to breathe, though, it's also about learning how to embrace the power in any setting, home or hospital, trust your body and trust that you can handle your own power responsibly. It's a lot of work, but when I see women get it... it's like a light turned on inside them.

To be clear, harnessing your own power doesn't ensure you'll ride out each contraction like a champ and after you give birth (naturally and standing without support), someone will deliver you a medal, a lackey and a TV crew. What it does mean is that you will have the capacity to use your power in any situation that comes up. You will have the ability to make decisions during the birth that you will feel good about long after the baby has come.

And that kind of stuff spills over.

Childbirth is a quintessential feminist issue. It's about power, struggles with power and struggles with the ability to use power. Unlike other situations, however, childbirth is not about demanding equal rights (though, it can be), it's about finding your own voice.

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Originally posted by fern hill:

For me, it was being nominated the 'birth partner' of a friend. She was 29, I was 19. I went to a few classes with her. There were videos. The blood, the indignity, the idiocy of the looks on the faces of women, the pain. But mostly the indignity turned me off forever.

And yes, the anger that this was my destiny.

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I once watched a birth video without sound because I was on the phone. It was definitely frightening, so I can well imagine that if you learn visually, this would have put you off reproduction, perhaps permanently.

Childbirth doesn't make everyone look great, but then, it's to be expected. The same thing that got the baby up in there in the first place wasn't really any more graceful.

I mean, have you ever looked at yourself when you make love? (Or at your partner?) You have hair plastered to the side of your head and sweat pouring out your armpits that Lady Speed Stick can't mask. You contort your face into a grimace and make noises that sound like you're being gutted. There is little pretty about sex and yet most of us try it more than a few times in our lives.

Women having babies aren't showing a lack of dignity - they're showing you their intimate side. This is a tremendous gift to anyone who sees it because few of us want to be seen as anything less than perfect... or at least presentable.

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Originally posted by charlottemillington:
To be clear, harnessing your own power doesn't ensure you'll ride out each contraction like a champ and after you give birth (naturally and standing without support), someone will deliver you a medal, a lackey and a TV crew. What it does mean is that you will have the capacity to use your power in any situation that comes up. You will have the ability to make decisions during the birth that you will feel good about long after the baby has come.

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In a philosophical sense, this is what I gained from being in childbirth twice. In reality, it was more like a near-death experience, and I'm not exaggerating. Still, the near-death experience in itself was memorable and empowering.

Both of my labours were hellishly painful. I went into the first one with a good level of physical fitness and I wasn't particularly anxious, but I was completely exhausted from 10 days of false labour. Yes, I was induced and the yes, the contractions were probably way worse than if they had come naturally - I don't even know if they would've ever come naturally. I had a large baby with a very big head, and had I been a different person with a different doctor, it probably would have been a C-section. Instead, I got to 10 cm without an epidural; but the pain and exhaustion were such that everyone including myself agreed that having an epidural for the pushing was a good idea. It didn't go as well as I'd wanted, but I had reached the limits of my endurance, and I'd never wish anybody to have that kind of pain and not get relief that is medically available.

With the second birth, I was proud and happy to do it without drugs, simply because I wanted the experience. I know my body probably can't handle a third pregnancy, and I really wanted to go to the depths of what I could physically handle. For me, the pain was purely physical - I don't remember feeling particularly tense or fearful. It just hurt like hell - and I remember exactly how it hurt. I've always known my body and its limits really well due to a lifetime of physically punishing sports, so I'm probably too familiar with the concept of 'no pain, no gain'.

ur the weakest link. Goodbye

[ 17 February 2006: Message edited by: kiwi_chick ]

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Originally posted by Andy (Andrew):
Zoot I'm 17 and gay. I don't think I'll ever be in a delivery room for the whole thing.

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One never knows where life will take us.

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For me, going through that kind of pain did make me stronger, but it was only because I chose to do it - not because I wanted a hero biscuit. I'm somewhat uncomfortable with the idea that enduring childbirth without medication is a source of power - it is a source of a very specific kind of power, and I wouldn't want my personhood or motherhood to hang on it. However, I'm possibly more uncomfortable with the idea that childbirth should necessarily be painless and over-medicalized. I'm a practical and a rational person, but I like to give space to something 'more' - some kind of transcendence. I'm not sure everyone is going to find it through childbirth, though. It is a great and amazing experience, but there are other experiences to be had, too. Not everything has to be a contest, as someone once reminded me.

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I agree with you. I don't think that med-less childbirth is something anybody can do for a hero cookie, or that it should be something you get a badge of honour for. The thing that bothered me most about the article in the initial post was the fact that being misinformed/uninformed was being pushed as the sensible way to go... I can't see how a choice is really a choice if you don't have all the information about the potential pros and cons of that choice.

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Originally posted by Zoot:

There are some good reasons to have an epidural, and we're lucky that the technology's available to us. Women shouldn't be made to feel like they've failed if they have one. But we are, with the majority of prenatal classes, more geared to take the medicalized route because we aren't well enough prepared or informed going in. That really worries me. It's not a safe, healthy or respectful situation for women. It's as if, as soon as we exercise the choice to bear children, we should be treated like idiots and have our choices limited.

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You've hit bang on the issue that hits me the hardest, both as a childbirth educator and a feminist: how do we prepare women to be in control of their choices in a system that sees uppity women as a problem?

I live in Victoria where anywhere from one in four women to one in two women will have their babies surgically cut out of them. Going on about non-medicalized childbirth sets up too many women for failure and yet by not giving the couples the full range of their options and some means to achive those options also sets them up for failure.

I have four weeks to convince couples to trust themselves to make good choices, to list out the total list of choices so they can choose appropriately, and then help them find communication techniques to be able to state their choices. In the middle of all of that, I also need to help them understand that sometimes they will need an epidural or a cesarean and it's a good thing we have these options, but because couples come to me to learn how to successfully achieve a non-medicalized birth, I also need to make sure I help them learn the tools they need to work as a team.

Sakes alive. I have four weeks, two hours each go, to get through all of this. Somewhere in there, I also need to help them think about breastfeeding (yet another feminist issue, let me tell you). What I need to a three-month class, but so far, it's not been a big hit.

Informed choice is the buzz phrase in the medical field and it's a hot topic for childbirth educators. None of us have a solid plan on how to achieve it, though we all have our ideas and methods. About the only thing we've agreed on philosophically is that you can't ram it down anyone's throat and while you can lead a horse to water, there's no guarantee that you'll get anything more than a wet horse.

If you want to say something shitty about gay men or gay youth go ahead because it won't be the first time it's happened.

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Originally posted by Zoot:

One never knows where life will take us.

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I'm not sure I'd go the drug route if I were to have another baby. But I tend to think I probably would. The pain I experienced before the epidural was enough to convince me that I live in the 20th century for a reason. And considering that the pain gets a lot worse than what I had, I think I made the right decision. For me.

I like it that for the most part, people in this thread have been respectful of the fact that it's valid for a woman to make the choice of going the drug route for labour and delivery.

[ 18 February 2006: Message edited by: Ellechim ]

Men, straight or gay, should respect that this is the feminism forum (that does not mean all male input is unwelcome unless it is a stated guildeline for the thread).

But it really pisses me off that childbirth is seen as the quintessential feminist issue. There are a lot of women who either never wanted or couldn't have children, for many reasons.

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So I need a little info, if you have an epidural how unable to move will I be and for how long? It's the not being able to move that makes me think I won't be having an epidural.

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The other kind of epidural, where they inject an anaesthetic into your spine, does paralyze you. But you want to be completely numb if they need to do a lot of repair work afterwards.

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Originally posted by Sineed:
Despite all the medical interventions I required for my births, my memories of them are largely positive because I gave birth in a progressive, women-focused hospital that gave me choices whenever possible.

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That was my experience as well. All of the medical options (epidurals, sedative through a venous catheter) were offered to me by women, and the non-medical options (pacing, breathing exercises, baths, different birth positions, isometric exercises, birthing balls, etc.) were strongly suggested for controlling and reducing pain. From my point of view, medical options exist to make birthing a safer experience, not necessarily a painless one.

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Originally posted by brebis noire:

From my point of view, medical options exist to make birthing a safer experience, not necessarily a painless one.

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Firstly epidurals are not associated with an increased risk of caesarian section or instrumental delivery. Women who are more likely to have c-sections or forceps deliveries are more likely to have their babies in centres that offer epidurals. If data is examined in a non-biased form epidurals do not increase surgery interventions.

Epidurals done properly do not paralyze you. Most are done with dilute solutions of local anaesthetic that block pain fibres but not motor fibres. Very few women in well established labour actually want to walk around.

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Originally posted by Sven:
I don't get it. If a woman wants to eliminate the pain of childbirth, who is to say she can't (or shouldn't) have that option? Isn't it her body?

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Originally posted by BleedingHeart:

Epidurals done properly do not paralyze you. Most are done with dilute solutions of local anaesthetic that block pain fibres but not motor fibres. Very few women in well established labour actually want to walk around.

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In theory, maybe, but in practice, they most often do, at least temporarily. It's not a question of all or nothing, it's that if your sensory fibres are blocked, then your proprioception is already compromised and you will probably trip or fall if you try to walk.

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Originally posted by lagatta:

But it really pisses me off that childbirth is seen as the quintessential feminist issue. There are a lot of women who either never wanted or couldn't have children, for many reasons.

Ain't I a woman???

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No one ever said (especially me, since I'm the one who said childbirth is the quintessential feminist issue) that having babies makes you a woman.

I say childbirth is the quintessential feminist issue because it is one of three things women can do that men cannot and will not ever do. (Menstruation and lactation being the other two.)

If you have never had children by choice, then it's likely you spent your lifetime avoiding pregnancy. As a heterosexual female, the issue of childbirth has come up in your lifetime and the only reason you successfully avoided it is because feminists, women's libbers and suffragists made it possible for us to chose when and how many pregnancies we'll have.

If you can't have children, then it's obviously come up as an issue, otherwise you'd never know you had fertility issues. You can thank the women who laid down on many a doctor's table and endured crazy, untested therapies. (These tests really haven't looked much better in the last hundred years, although better pain medication means women aren't screaming during the treatments.)

The question in either scenario is simple: were you shunned for your choices or issues or were you treated with respect?

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Originally posted by charlottemillington:

I say childbirth is the quintessential feminist issue because it is one of three things women can do that men cannot and will not ever do. (Menstruation and lactation being the other two.)

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For me, feminism is waaay more an issue of what women cannot do than what they can. For example, earn buck-for-buck with men, have total control of their own bodies, be treated equally in the workplace, the courts, the political arena, the medical world, science, yadayada.

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Originally posted by BleedingHeart:

Firstly epidurals are not associated with an increased risk of caesarian section or instrumental delivery. Women who are more likely to have c-sections or forceps deliveries are more likely to have their babies in centres that offer epidurals. If data is examined in a non-biased form epidurals do not increase surgery interventions.

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This has been studied to the nose and studies still abound on this. ALL of them indicate that use of an epidural increases your chances of a cesarean, although not all of the studies agree on how much your chances increase.

If you have any studies that support the use of epidurals and that epidurals do not increase the likelihood of cesarean, I'd be open to seeing them.

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Originally posted by BleedingHeart:

Epidurals done properly do not paralyze you. Most are done with dilute solutions of local anaesthetic that block pain fibres but not motor fibres. Very few women in well established labour actually want to walk around.

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This is completely incorrect.

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posted by fern hill: Heph, considering the forum, that's really uncalled-for snarkiness.

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And lagatta, I do not agree with your outburst regarding the content of this thread; this is not about the

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the quintessential feminist issue

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Originally posted by fern hill but edited by charlotte:

For me, feminism is waaay more an issue of what women cannot do than what they can... have total control of their own bodies...

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Precisely why I say childbirth is the quintessential feminist issue: we ain't equal in the birth world.

Science defines "normal" via the male body. Why? Because the male body isn't buggered up by hormone fluxes. That means that medications are tested on male lab rats and we often don't know that things like some aspirin causes strokes in women until after the fact. (There's a class action suit in the US about this, although I can't remember which brand of aspirin it is.)

What this imbalance means is that childbirth is considered an abnormal state of health that requires extensive medical management. (See the article in the first post as an example of what happens when we buy into that.) If you read medical journals from thirty years ago, you see doctors enthusing over the use of episiotomies so that the infant head isn't battered against the women's perineum. (What's your perineum made from? I couldn't batter anything with mine.) So, thirty years ago, you walked into the labour room and found doctors cutting vaginas open to save the baby.

Fifteen years ago, which was when I began in the field, you walked into the labour room and found a 98% episiotomy rate because we all knew that women would tear and an episiotomy was easier to repair. We forgot why we started doing episiotomies and just kept doing them.

Now, I walk into the labour room and I see intact perineum after intact perineum. What changed? Well, for one thing, we learned a few things about how babies come out and we learned that when you cut a woman's vagina, you don't save her from anything. Regrettably, the other thing we learned is that when you give a woman a cesarean, she doesn't need an episiotomy.

*ech*

So, fifteen years ago, we had a 98% episiotomy rate and a 12% cearean rate. Now we have a 12% episiotomy rate and a 34% cesarean rate. Egads. Science still doesn't believe we can give birth and it still supports the excessive use of cutting into our bodies to get the babies out. Kind of makes one wonder how thirty billion years of evolution could have got it so wrong.

We don't have total control over our own bodies, not by any stretch. Many progressive hospitals and midwives create environments where women can birth just like any other mammal, but these are not the norm, these are the exception.

...Which would be reason 491(a) why I believe childbirth is the quintessential feminist issue.

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posted by charlottemillington: Precisely why I say childbirth is the quintessential feminist issue: we ain't equal in the birth world.

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Originally posted by charlottemillington:
What this imbalance means is that childbirth is considered an abnormal state of health that requires extensive medical management. (See the article in the first post as an example of what happens when we buy into that.)

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I don't get where you're going with this. Giving birth is historically and factually a state in which there is increased risk to the mother and the baby's survival. I don't think there's too much politics in there, rather, it's biology.

I'm a vet. I've helped cows, sheep, horses and goats give birth, and I've seen and performed life-saving C-sections on various species including pigs and a rabbit. When mammals give birth, risk and danger are sometimes part of the bargain.

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Originally posted by brebis noire:
I'm a vet.

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Originally posted by fern hill:
Gee, I haven't looked at the rules lately, but it seems at least disrespectful to quote someone and edit that quote to suit one's argument.

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I didn't actually edit your post to suit my argument, I snipped your post to a shorter version. You haven't been taken out of context at all.

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Originally posted by brebis noire:

I don't get where you're going with this. Giving birth is historically and factually a state in which there is increased risk to the mother and the baby's survival. I don't think there's too much politics in there, rather, it's biology.

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I'm not going anywhere with it, though to clarify: it's not just biology, it *is* politics. Childbirth is a highly political topic, though I expect moreso for people who are in the childbirth field. (Meaning that if there's any politics in the vet world, I don't know them because I'm immersed in the politics of the childbirth field.)

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Originally posted by brebis noire:

I'm a vet. I've helped cows, sheep, horses and goats give birth, and I've seen and performed life-saving C-sections on various species including pigs and a rabbit. When mammals give birth, risk and danger are sometimes part of the bargain.

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That's a good point: what's your cesarean rate?

In the world of human birth, we know that ceseareans save lives. Taking all of it into account, we know that in a primary care hospital, anything over 12% is excessive and anything over 8% in a tertiary care hospital is excessive.

Knowing that horses, pigs, cats and humans all have a similar pelvis, I'm going to take a wild guess that cesarean stats are probably about the same. (Are they?) I'm also going to take a guess that just like in humans, when you cross a great big male with a teeny weeny female, you get a high need for a cesarean.

Over in the world of human childbirth, the cesarean rates are not stuck at that 12% & 8% figure - instead, they are at multiples of those figures. (In some parts of BC, you have an almost one in two chance of a cesarean.) This can't be because biology has messed up in the last thirty years - it's got to be because of economics.

Looks increasingly as though I'm going to be child free (love that way of looking at it). And Charlotte, some of my time has been spent avoiding pregnancy, but that's only when I'm in a sexual relationship with a man, which is pretty darn rare. Reproductive issues are indeed an important part of feminism but they're not all of it by a long shot!

Interesting thread, though. I like that everyone's respecting that different women make different choices and have different needs. We do tend to make a bit of a cult about childbirth (and lactation - women have to put up with all kinds of crap and criticism if they can't breastfeed successfully), and parenthood, for that matter.

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In the world of human birth, we know that ceseareans save lives.

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And then there's those vanity C-sections favoured by Hollywood stars and former National Post columnists. Maybe those are pushing up the numbers.

Womens College Hospital in Toronto had a higher C-section rate because the OBs there followed more high-risk pregnancies.

For those who don't think childbirth is a feminist issue: I think Stargazer's experience was all too common when male doctors dictated what went on in the birthing suites. Women are no longer chastised for not following whatever hospital protocol they had back in the bad old days. They don't force you to lie on your back throughout labour--a position I found increased the pain. They let you walk around (my favourite), or hop in the shower with your partner, whatever.

As far as epidurals resulting in increased c-sections, forceps deliveries, etc, have they proved causality? Maybe women who ask for epidurals are having a more painful labour because there are problems that will necessitate more medical interventions.

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I'm not going anywhere with it, though to clarify: it's not just biology, it *is* politics. Childbirth is a highly political topic, though I expect moreso for people who are in the childbirth field. (Meaning that if there's any politics in the vet world, I don't know them because I'm immersed in the politics of the childbirth field.)

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If you don't think choice in childbirth is political, try choosing a home birth in a place where that is uncommon. I had a number of responses from people ranging from curiosity to outright hostility (mostly from nurses, oddly). I was asked to defend my decision by many people, whether it was their business or not what I chose to do.

I wouldn't necessarily say childbirth is "the" feminist issue, but it is a feminist issue. Think of it as an extension of the reproductive choice issue. One has the choice to use birth control or to terminate a pregnancy -- but our choices in childbirth are limited by social disapproval, lack of information/education and sometimes by legislation and political lobbying against making available a choice (home birth and midwife care - a specific example is here in Saskatchewan) that has been proven to be as safe and even preferable in many ways.

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I was in the hospital a week earlier, due to toxic anemia. I was 4 weeks past my birthing date. That's a long time. They had to break my water and they had to induce labour.

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[ 20 February 2006: Message edited by: Toedancer ]

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Originally posted by Zoot:
I wouldn't necessarily say childbirth is "the" feminist issue, but it is a feminist issue. Think of it as an extension of the reproductive choice issue. One has the choice to use birth control or to terminate a pregnancy -- but our choices in childbirth are limited by social disapproval, lack of information/education and sometimes by legislation and political lobbying against making available a choice (home birth and midwife care - a specific example is here in Saskatchewan) that has been proven to be as safe and even preferable in many ways.

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I guess each of us is informed by our own experience as well as by the particular country, province and hospital where we give birth. Here in Quebec, the midwife option is getting close to mainstream - some hospitals collaborate with birthing centres, and it's become a totally acceptable option since the mid-90s, especially as more and more women are choosing it.

For me, it wouldn't have been a good option, but I'm totally in favour of that approach. I tend to think that any social disapproval would come from very real concerns for safety, but then I've never been on the receiving end of that disapproval (nor on the giving end for that matter.)

As for increased rates of C-sections, I've wondered if they aren't due to the fact that babies in the western world are getting heavier. If I'd had a seven-pounder to start with, I'm quite sure things would've gone differently. But he was nearly nine pounds, and my pelvis is kinda boy-shaped. Well, it used to be. Babies are getting heavier from better maternal nutrition, more awareness of factors that favour healthy babies, and maybe some other factors I'm not aware of.

I heard a report some time ago about how mums in some countries (I think it was in Africa, though I could be wrong) would deliberately limit their diets during the last trimester so that their babies would be smaller - that being one of the biggest factors that would determine their own survival of childbirth, and of course that of their babies.

As for the celebrity 'trend' to C-sections, that is something I don't get at all. With a vaginal birth, your shape returns to normal so much faster and easier, you don't have a scar to deal with, and you can get back to exercising much quicker.

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Originally posted by charlottemillington:

That's a good point: what's your cesarean rate?

In the world of human birth, we know that ceseareans save lives. Taking all of it into account, we know that in a primary care hospital, anything over 12% is excessive and anything over 8% in a tertiary care hospital is excessive.

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I can't say what our cesarean rate is; it's extremely variable according to breed, species and available vet care. Bulldogs, for example: nearly 100%; the maternal pelvis is too small to let a big puppy bulldog head pass through.

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As for increased rates of C-sections, I've wondered if they aren't due to the fact that babies in the western world are getting heavier. If I'd had a seven-pounder to start with, I'm quite sure things would've gone differently. But he was nearly nine pounds, and my pelvis is kinda boy-shaped. Well, it used to be. Babies are getting heavier from better maternal nutrition, more awareness of factors that favour healthy babies, and maybe some other factors I'm not aware of.

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I don't know if I completely buy that. Maybe in a very few cases. On an anecdotal aside, my hips were 34" and I'm angular. My babies were both 8 pounders. My Ma is the same size as me, gave birth to a 10 lb baby (my sister), and without much difficulty. The real instances of CPD (baby's head too big for the pelvis) are statistically very small, from what I've read -- they can't begin to account for the rise in C-section. This is mostly from AMA studies, btw.

I think you're very lucky to have midwives considered a mainstream choice in Quebec. It wasn't always that way -- My SIL was told it was OB or nothing, and she had both her children in Montreal. They're 12 and 14 now.

As for the overall population, there is a consensus out there that better nutrition (including folic acid), less smoking and higher weight gains during pregnancy, including higher rates of mums who are already overweight or obese before getting pregnant all contribute to higher birth weights.

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In Canada the decline in smoking, coupled with the obesity epidemic among women and the increasing frequency of gestational diabetes, contributed to a rise in mean birth weight of about 50 grams (a little under 2 ounces) between 1981 and 1997. The proportion of infants who are large for gestational age has also increased. The data suggest that in Canada “the size of babies at any gestational age is going up,” Kramer says—and this shift toward heavier birth weights may be adding fuel to the epidemic of obesity there. A similar upward trend in birth weights has not been documented in the United States, but some experts worry that it could be on the horizon.

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Kramer’s analysis shows that in Canada the decline in smoking during pregnancy has been largely responsible for a heartening drop in the number of babies who are born small for gestational age.

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Wow. Good thing my Mom smoked whilst pregnant, as I and my bro' were 9 and 10 lbs. respectively. Just think what we mighta been had she not smoked?

My mum kept telling me that childbirth was a cakewalk; however, she later admitted only being able to remember baby number 3 (me) who was smaller than the first two...