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TOBYHANNA, Pa. - When New Yorkers and Philadelphians want to get away from the noise and crowds, they often come to the Pocono Mountains of northeastern Pennsylvania.

It's a bucolic, tourist-friendly place of forests and streams and lakes, a place where you can play a round of golf, take in a show, angle for trout or simply lose yourself on a country road.

A place where a Crip or a Blood would seem ... out of place.

Yet, jarringly, they are here: gang members from New York City and its suburbs who authorities say have quietly taken up residence in some of the private, gated communities of the Poconos, where they can stake out new drug turf with little interference from municipal or state police.

Many of these gang members are teenagers and young adults, brought here by their parents to escape big-city crime but instead bringing crime with them — creating fear and resentment among long-established residents.
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With so many commuting to jobs in New Jersey and New York, teenage children are left unsupervised for hours at a time after school. Bored teens who have little to keep them occupied can be easy pickings for gang recruiters, experts say.

"People who moved from New York and New Jersey into the gated communities, some of the youngsters decided they were going to get together and try to imitate the gangs," said Marut, the state police commander. "From there, it kind of mushroomed, with outside people coming in from New York City who were actual gang members trying to organize people."

Bloods, Crips, Latin Kings and MS13, a Latino gang, all have a presence here, authorities say. As of early August, 61 confirmed or suspected gang members were locked up in Monroe County Prison — up from just 25 at the end of last year.

Gang members know that gated communities are not patrolled by state troopers or municipal police, but by private contractors. Because these communities are private property, police may enter only under specific circumstances, such as pursuit of a fleeing suspect.

The limited police presence has made some private communities "almost safe havens for gangs," said Stephen Washington, chief of staff to state Rep. John Siptroth, D-Monroe. "Because of the efforts of urban areas to stamp down on gangs, (gang members) are leaving to come to the Poconos, where life is much easier for them."

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Yahoo story link.

[ 06 August 2006: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]

As for the gang members, there can be no greater evidence of a failed government than the proliferation of gangs such as we see in the u.s. of a. Such youth gangs can only survive where there is a sense of being alienated and abandoned by the state.

[ 07 August 2006: Message edited by: eau ]

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Originally posted by Michelle:
I certainly don't like to see gang activity anywhere. But it makes me smirk when it moves into white-flight "gated communities". Tough luck, suckers! Cope, you rich yuppie ninnies.

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I do not know about these specific gated communities, but I did look up the demographic data for Monroe County and compared these data to the data for the USA. The percentage of white people in Monroe County is less than in the USA, and the percentage of African Americans is greater than in the USA. (Monroe County, 79.14% White and 13,75% African American; USA 80.4% White and 12.8% African American. See here andhere.) This makes me question these characterization of these communities as "white flight". Moreover, the median household income in Monroe County in 2000 was $44891, only a little bit more than the US median of $42148. (See here, here and here.)

I also went to the web page of "A Pocono Country Place", to see how much houses cost there. Here are the prices on the first page of listings: $179,900, $189,000, $259,000, $279,900, $89,000, $90,000, $90,000, $97,900, $99,000, $109,900, $119,900, $119,900, $125,000, $129,900, $134,500, $139,000, $139,900, $142,000, $142,000, $143,000 .

Both the median household income and the housing prices make me question the characterization of the residents as "rich yuppie ninnies."

Finally, I myself was not inclined to smirk when I read the following in the article under discussion:

"The owners of a Pike County riding stable say they were attacked by Crips last August in a dispute over a parking space at a local deli. The victims were an elderly couple and their adult daughter. The daughter, who spoke on condition of anonymity because she fears another attack, said she suffered a fractured jaw and numerous lacerations, her father's cheek was split open, and her mother was roughed up."

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Originally posted by Martha (but not Stewart):
I do not know about these specific gated communities, but I did look up the demographic data for Monroe County and compared these data to the data for the USA. The percentage of white people in Monroe County is less than in the USA, and the percentage of African Americans is greater than in the USA. (Monroe County, 79.14% White and 13,75% African American; USA 80.4% White and 12.8% African American. See here andhere.) This makes me question these characterization of these communities as "white flight". Moreover, the median household income in Monroe County in 2000 was $44891, only a little bit more than the US median of $42148. (See here, here and here.)

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Well done, gumshoe, that's some serious detective work you've done. However, you might, in the future, improve your research skill by considering the following:

First of all, Monroe County, New York also contains the small urban centre of Rochester, NY (pop 219 773) with a 38% African American population that would certainly augment your numbers county-wide, and hence point to a much higher white population in the suburbs and county areas. In fact, minus all the urban African Amercians, this would make the suburbs a whopping 92% white.

Of course, none of this matters, since the county in question is Monroe County, Pennsylvania which has a demographic of 88% White and hence pretty much nullifies any of your assumptions. Pike County, furthermore, has a White population of 93%. I wish you luck in all future endeavors.

Edited to Add: And as for your conjecture on real estate values in Poconos Gated Communities, Hemlock Farms and Timber Trails, two such subdivisions, offer quite different numbers on how much such a home is worth. I'd say Michelle's characteriziation is quite correct.

And even if they weren't white, or rich, they are indisputably ninnies.

[ 09 August 2006: Message edited by: Catchfire ]

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Originally posted by Catchfire:
Well done, gumshoe, that's some serious detective work you've done. However, you might, in the future, improve your research skill by considering the following:

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I stand corrected -- on some points, though not all (see my next post). Thank you for correcting my mistakes.

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Originally posted by Catchfire:
... the county in question is Monroe County, Pennsylvania which has a demographic of 88% White and hence pretty much nullifies any of your assumptions. Pike County, furthermore, has a White population of 93%. I wish you luck in all future endeavors.

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On this point, I stand corrected.

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Edited to Add: And as for your conjecture on real estate values in Poconos Gated Communities, Hemlock Farms and Timber Trails, two such subdivisions, offer quite different numbers on how much such a home is worth. I'd say Michelle's characteriziation is quite correct.

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I did not suggest that there were no rich people in these gated communities. Surely there are. The question is whether they are all or even mostly rich, i.e. whether the population as a whole is best described as rich.

I checked both Hemlock Farms and Timber Trails. Over half of the sixty-five houses advertised on Hemlock Farms are advertised for under $300K. A fair number are selling for under $200K. These are not priced for poor people, but they are priced for the middle class, as opposed to the rich. Timber trails has only twelve homes for sale, so their page is statistically less significant: four of their twelve houses are advertised for less than $300K.

More importantly, it seems to me that you chose two of the more expensive communities (correct me if am wrong on this). I did some advanced searches at the Pocono Real Estate Listings, and found the following, by community:

Arrowhead Lakes: Two houses for sale, $148K and $159K. Seven houses recently sold; six under $160K.
Birches III: One house for sale, $250K.
Emerald Lakes: Five houses for sale, two under $200K, three under $300K. Eleven houses recently sold; ten under $200K.
Estates@Emerald Lakes: One house for sale @ $283K.
Foxfire: Two condos for sale, $90K each; twelve condos recently sold, all under $125K.
Hemlock Hill: One house for sale, $249K.
High Country Estates: One house for sale, $385K.
Lake Naomi: Two houses for sale, $180K and $215K.
Locust Lake Village: Two houses for sale, $140K and $260K.
Mushroom Farms: One house for sale, $100K.
Paradise Point: One house for sale, $260K.
Penn Estates: Two houses for sale, $142K and $189K.
Pine Crest: One house for sale, $165K.
Pine Hill Estates: One house recently sold, $195K.
Pocono Country Place: Five houses for sale, all under $200K. Twenty-two houses recently sold, all for under $150K.

OK, after getting to the letter P, I got tired, but I invite everyone to check out the other communities. The housing prices suggest that many or even most of these people are middle class and are not particularly rich. I should note that the community that was the main subject of the article is A Pocono Country Place, where all twenty-two houses recently sold went for under $150K.

I might add that the residents of these places can hardly be considered yuppies, by the way, i.e. young urban professionals. They certainly are not urban. These homes tend to be family homes, so I doubt that they are particularly young. They may indeed be professionals, but I see nothing wrong with that.

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And even if they weren't white, or rich, they are indisputably ninnies.

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The moved from higher crime areas to lower crime areas. Does that make them ninnies?

[ 09 August 2006: Message edited by: Martha (but not Stewart) ]

So, now that we've established that these communities are in fact white by a massive majroty, it is your contention that these aren't ninny-whites, but good ole boys--hard-working, blue-collar middle classers just trying to eek out a living in this land of opportunity. I'll ignore the fact that you somehow think that someone who could afford a $300K USD house is middle class (which in my opinion, is akin to calling a 30 year-old middle-aged--if you've spent time in Michelle's and my own income bracket, it's easy to understand describing such an individual as "rich" but, admittedly, there are those much, much richer). So, now that the bar has been set a bit lower (white, middle-class ninnies) lets examine your new claims.

You've listed quite a few houses in the Poconos there. Unfortunately, only a few of them are from gated communities, so that really has nothing much to do with the discussion. My searches of "gated communities poconos" generally turned up very expensive real estate listings, but I'm not at liberty to give a definitive verdict on the subject. I posted the sites I did because they were the first two that popped up on google.

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Originally posted by Catchfire:
Whenever I see someone going through such hardship and effort in order to defend rich, white ninnies,

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First, thanks for the article. Extremely interesting.

I should point out that my main goal was not to defend anyone, but simply to point out that people in gated communities are not particularly rich. If we are under the spell of a misconception, then we should shed it.

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I feel like a little sarcasm is permitted. I trust your feelings weren't hurt too badly. If they were, I apologize.

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It is nothing to do with my feelings, but with the appropriate course of constructive discourse.

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So, now that we've established that these communities are in fact white by a massive majroty,

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The article which you provided characterizes A Pocono Country Place as "a heavily black and Latino development". If this is a correct characterization, then at least one of these communities is not white by a massive majority -- presumably there are other such communities.

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it is your contention that these aren't ninny-whites, but good ole boys--hard-working, blue-collar middle classers just trying to eek out a living in this land of opportunity.

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No, this is not my contention. My contention is that many of them are middle-class. I said nothing about "good ole boys--hard-working, blue-collar middle classers just trying to eek out a living in this land of opportunity". In fact, I am middle class, but I am not a good ole boy, not particularly hard-working, not blue-collar, and not just trying to eke out a living.

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I'll ignore the fact that you somehow think that someone who could afford a $300K USD house is middle class

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A couple earning $55K USD each can together afford a $300K USD home. This may or may not be your income bracket, but it is certainly middle class.