I am ambivalent about abortion rights. I’m not "ambivalent" in the sense of "I don't care about the issue, one way or the other, because it makes no difference to me." Rather, I am "ambivalent" in the sense that I am pulled in (at least) two directions on the issue.

Part of me says that, as a very practical matter, abortion should be freely available because it’s going to happen anyway and, therefore, it should be safe. That same part of me looks at the tremendous harm caused to society by bringing an unwanted child into the world (or, even if the child is wanted, the child may not be properly cared for because the mother is far too young). I also think about the control a woman needs to have over her body in order to have an equal footing with me.

Another part of me says that there’s a little piece of life that get extinguished (regardless of whether that life is "human" or not) and it bothers me because, personally, I couldn’t even kill a rabbit if my life depended on it.

On balance, I tend to fall on the side of choice. But, there is an uneasiness about that position that bothers me.

Questions: For those who have gone through an abortion, what were your thoughts about the part of you that was being removed from your body? In your mind’s eye, was it a formless fetus or did you think about its hands and feet and whatnot? I really want to get a sense of what a person "feels" because I think it will help me to better empathize with a person (one of my nieces) who is going through that process. I also realize that I may not get any answers to these questions because the questions are so very, very personal. And, that’s okay. But, for those who may be willing to share their thought about this, I think it would be helpful to me as well as others in my position and it would be much appreciated.

[ 27 July 2005: Message edited by: Stargazer ]

I agree with Stargazer.

What you have asked is a rarely-talked-about issue for women, and feminists. That is, how emotionally difficult abortions are. As a pro-choice and pro-child feminist (remember the slogan "every child a wanted child"?) I can share this:

Every woman I know who had an abortion did not do it lightly, nor did she ever forget it. Women remember the anniversary of the day they had the abortion, the date the child would have been born, and over the years, how old the child would have been and what her life would have been like if she made a different choice. Nobody I know who had one regretted her decision either. And, I'm of the generation that had safe and legal abortions available (mostly. We turned 20 in the mid-late 80s).

This is a deeply private set of feelings that I'm always afraid to share, knowing that anti-choice, anti-abortion factions can try to take it to use in their arguments. But what I described is very widespread and I don't know anyone who waltzes in and does it and never looks back.

I think this is the crux of the abortion debate, that pro-choicers can be portrayed as unfeeling towards the potential life that is being deliberately ended. This is not the case at all.

Please remember that when abortion is not safe, free (in Ontario anyways) and available, women are put at great risk, including death.

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:
Thank you for your question.

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And thank you, and Stargazer, for your very thoughtful responses. Because the questions I asked are so personal, it would seem to me that they would be a wonderful topic for a book (with actual names changed). Really understanding the emotional burden of that decision would be a good thing for all to understand.

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Originally posted by Sven:
If there is one single thing that everyone should agree upon, it is to try and help avoid unwanted pregnancies in the first place. Why the two groups can't work together on that common ground is beyond my understanding. Birth control should be free and kids need to learn about sex in school. That would save so many from suffering so much angst and grief.

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I agree with the general principle, but I'm not sure about dispensing birth control in the schools. A question I have is do abortion counsellors discuss the possible emotional ramifications of abortion with women who are considering making that choice?

Speaking as a long-time vegan, there is no credible way for me to figure, within my philosophy of the good, the ending of any recognisable form of 'animal' life as morally irrelevant. To borrow a metaphor from another thread, I cannot treat the ending of any life as equivalent to a routine operative procedure like a knee operation without opportunistically and hypocritically throwing away the very foundations of my ethical outlook on the world by doing so.

In every other situation I encounter in my life, I have long applied a valuing of "life" which is not myopically focused on human adults of normal intelligence and in practice is extended to all organisms with a functioning nervous system. In all other scenarios, I consider myself not empowered or entitled to end (or to exploit in any way) these lives.

The abortion rate (as of 2000) is 15.4 abortions per 1,000 women. That's 1.54%. Such a small number for all the fuss it raises, and this is not meant to diminish any of the words above, including mine.

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you can help by not imposing any of your personal moral dilemmas on her.

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I am going to try to use that immensely controlled and wise statement as my own guiding star.

The tone of this thread bothers me a lot. It bothers me because of other kinds of experiences I have had with health / medical issues, and with the tremendously important role that I have seen a sense of autonomy play in the maintenance of people's health.

Sven, you haven't told us whether your niece has ever expressed to you, directly, the ambivalence that you say you feel (and the general discussion seems to have gone on to anguish). Do you know what she feels? Do you think it is possible that she feels no ambivalence and no anguish at all? I have certainly known women who felt none over their decisions to obtain abortions, and I think they would rather resent the implication that their straightforward decisions were being derided as insensitive or callous or trivial.

The only serious way to empathize, I think, is to listen to the Other and to follow her. If what you genuinely care about is her feelings, rather than your own, then you will be able to practise what Keats called "negative capability" -- to follow her logic, to avoid projecting your feelings on to her, perhaps to help her to clarify her thoughts -- that always helps. But it is her thoughts that matter.

And she may not be feeling anguish or ambivalence at all. Would that bother you? Would that hurt you?

To me, the heavy tone of this discussion is unwarranted, or at least a great many women are going to feel that way. I know what it is like to be burdened by the "help" of others who tell me how bad, how hopeless, how utterly lugubrious I should be feeling about something, and I know that, for me, when I am doing my best to work through a serious human problem, that kind of help is no help at all. I often end up empathizing with the well-intentioned person who thinks s/he is helping me, but then that just becomes an extra burden for me.

I’ve found this to be very much the case. Lots of women I know have had abortions and, if they didn’t feel pressured into having one, the experience was generally positive. I don’t recall the exact day I had an abortion and I don’t really think of that pregnancy as a baby I wish I’d seen grow up. I have two children, it’s not at all that I’m insensitive to the delights of children. I do remember that experience as one where I was wholly supported by my mother and by her insistence that the ability to do this safely, in a hospital, and strictly on my own say-so was a great victory.

USianweb page

Canadian web page

This conversation and much about the abortion debate reminds me so very much of the 1970s attitude about being a gay man – that is, you couldn’t help it and everything, but you were probably going to have to kill yourself because being gay was obviously and only a one-way ticket to depression and self-loathing.

It’s amazing to me that what seems to be really taboo is discussing an abortion you’ve had without a lot of hand-wringing. Why is it so radical to say, “I had one and, actually, I’m fine with that. It was the right decision for me at the time”? Because I think that the vast majority of women who’ve had abortions would fall into that camp – myself included.

If I had a niece who was having an abortion I’d provide some good practical information – that you’re really going to need some resting time in bed and that you need to have an in-the-know adult stay with you in case you start running a fever (if you do, you’ll start to get a little out-of-it and you might not think to get yourself to a doctor when you should). I’d provide the latest copies of Bitch and Bust. I’d hang out and make tea and talk if it seemed wanted and keep quiet if that was preferred. It’s important for any woman having an abortion to understand that they're not alone – both in the sense that lots of women have had abortions and that there’s someone around to drive you home from the appointment.

[edited for grammar -- good god!]

[ 28 July 2005: Message edited by: saskatchewan ]

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No one but me knows my circumstances, my mind. So anybody who wants to tell me what I did or didn't or should or shouldn't have felt, can fuck right the hell off.

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When I was in the midst of my marriage breaking down and suffering from ED this was my reaction.

When its about my death, coma and hospital travails, then I freely talk about it. It helps me deal.

We decide on our feelings, no one else. Everyone else can bite me.

Its a medical proceedure, it isnt fun, it hurts and can be uncomfortable for days (from the women I have seen go through it). Some people can suffer thru remorse, others dont. Its like anything you go thru, we all experience it differently.

You feelings of remorse, or elation at any experience in life should ALWAYS be secondary and hidden when helping someone go through it too, that needs your help. If they ask your opinion then give it but otherwise you are there for them because they need you and you car eenough to want to help, not to feed your beliefs or justify your experience/feelings.

The women I've known who have coped with profound life-long anguish have been those who bore their children (often in humiliating circumstances) and then gave them up for adoption. If you want to hear stories of endless heartbreak, listen to those women.

It isn't an easy decision, and it is a hellish position to be in.

The main point, for us men, is that it is not our decision. Our role is to be supportive of whatever choices a woman makes with her body. Period. It is also to provide support, where appropriate, before, during and after the decision.

It's not like there's a playbook for how people react to abortion. It's a human experience, there's infinite variety in what she might be feeling about it.

It sounds like your heart is in the right place Sven, but how would you counsel someone who had a niece who just had a baby, or had a miscarriage, or gave her child up for adoption?

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The women I know who have had abortions did not make the decision lightly, and have carried the decision with them.
It isn't an easy decision, and it is a hellish position to be in.

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I'm a bit leery of overgeneralizations like this.

I have a friend who has had at least two abortions, each time because she made a conscious decision to "wing it" with regard to birth control. She was fearful of the Pill, and she dislikes condoms because she says that she can't feel anything when her partner uses them. So she winged it. And when she became pregnant she had an abortion, twice. She became pregant a third time, and decided to have the child.

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Originally posted by vmichel:
This thread is weird. Substitue "death in the family" or "birth of a child" or any less-controversial life event for "abortion" in the OP, and see how weird it is.

It's not like there's a playbook for how people react to abortion. It's a human experience, there's infinite variety in what she might be feeling about it.

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Perhaps. But when I first read this thread, it was dominated by heavy male voices, and heavy male voices that seemed to be framing abortion as an unavoidably tragic experience. And slowly, slowly, people who write about tragedy always seem to end up writing more about themselves than about anyone else.

Demonstrably, abortion is not an unavoidably tragic experience, not unless you want to deny the testimony that has appeared on this thread since. Many many women, in all cultures we know of at all times, have not equated abortion with a death in the family.

Those who wish to, may. We fought for women to have the right to that choice.

But return to Stargazer's opening caution. The greatest danger I have ever met in caregiving is the ego of the caregiver. If you can't listen and follow, then back off, and find a therapist for yourself.

[ 28 July 2005: Message edited by: skdadl ]

Here’s part of the question – I’ve bolded parts I think are designed to especially elicit a one-sided, overly emotional response:

“In your mind’s eye, was it a formless foetus or did you think about its hands and feet and whatnot? I really want to get a sense of what a person "feels" because I think it will help me to better empathize with a person (one of my nieces) who is going through that process. I also realize that I may not get any answers to these questions because the questions are so very, very personal.”

It feels creepy, doesn't it. I know what it is like to be driven to silence because someone is bearing down on me with his/her preconceptions of how I MUST feel, and it is creepy.

That is not empathy. (See? I'm still on topic.)

Historically though, women didn't seem to perceive abortion as a tragedy; a necessity most likely, and a relief if all went well and they survived it without complications. Right now we're being taught to frame it as a personal trial when ironically it is safer than it has ever been, medically at least. Maybe it's because the element of personal risk, the risk of irreparably damaging our bodies is no longer as crucial, that has made us project those emotions onto something more intangible, a potential life, is perhaps how I'd put it.

[ 28 July 2005: Message edited by: fern hill ]

edited because I hit the wrong damn button

[ 28 July 2005: Message edited by: fern hill ]

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Originally posted by fern hill:
saskatchewan: yup, the f***king nurses. During my second, legal in Ontario, I had one rotten b***h. You know how you're real cold after a general? I kept asking for extra blankets, then drifting off. And the nurse kept smirking at me. I'd ask again when I came round again. Same thing. I woulda popped her, if I hadn't been so stoned.

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A tangent-- I never had an abortion. However, I had three babies. I was "awake & aware" with all three deliveries,'tho in some severe pain with my second child. I was amazed that some of the nurses--women who selected to work with women--were so d--n nasty to women in labor & to new mothers. I wondered why they wanted to work in maternity units!

Fern: thank you for raising the issue of not feeling guilty about an abortion.
Saskatchewan: thanks for pointing out the implicit nature of the openers discussion.

My mother (who has been working on abortion rights for over 25 years in Manitoba, just opening up a new clinic, btw) often talks to me about the reality that most womyn are happy afterwards because the burden of having an unwanted child is finally off their backs. Most womyn who get an abortion do it because they don’t want a child.

As a young womyn who may at some point have an abortion (especially considering I'm allergic to condoms, and I'm vegan), I always appreciated my mother who told me to have one (I lived in a town with Canada's 3rd highest teen pregnancy rate). She told me to f*** all those people who say it's emotionally difficult. She did this not because she felt that everyone's abortion was emotionally pain-free, but rather because she knew that everywhere else I turned, 14 year olds where popping out babies because abortion would be just too difficult. I think you must always consider the societal implications to what you are saying.

A lot of people in our society have been coopted by the Right into believing that most womyn do (and should) feel bad. In reality, as many of my old profs (womyn and health related classes) and the womyn I know working in abortion rights (such as my mother)tell me, those emotions are a minority and we can’t treat womyn as though they should feel hurt by their decision.

This issue is one feminists have been fighting for ages. I dates back to the judgement that womyn are more emotional than men, that we have an inherent attachment to child-bearing (we're born mothers). My mother always laughed at how prevelant (and normal) abortion would be if men could get pregnant.

To those who say we must allow everyone to feel every which way about their abortions...you are whole heartedly true. But we work in steps...right now, most womyn are shamed by their abortions (so we counter it by urging to womyn to remember that it is okay to not be sad/depressed). I believe that the pro-abortion movement recognizes that some womyn will require additional support (and we must provide that), but as the situation currently stands, society requires that womyn (or clinics simply make it policy) to counsel womyn, doctor's insist on laying out womyn's other options in a very biaised manner, we get Plan B (morning after pill) over the counter but the pharmacist has to provide you with counselling and they can refuse it if you are not fit for it (oh, and you will be paying for that counselling).

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Originally posted by marcella:

My mother always laughed at how prevelant (and normal) abortion would be if men could get pregnant.

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Wise woman your mother!

Aside from the pressures and opinions others place on a woman concerning this, maybe the key here is the difficulty with which she comes to her decision to abort? I wavered hard: I WANTED the child. Other factors made it clear that I wasn't capable of raising one. Some women may have choosen adoption in my position, and I can sympathize with that.
My point is: maybe it's less about the abortion, and more about the hard choices we sometimes have to make as women and mothers.

I think it's great that so many of you have mothers who are educated in this. That's awesome. My own mum, who is a wonderful woman, is pretty traditional. As a teenager, I was the one who wanted to talk about sex and condoms and all, and she wanted to avoid the subject as much as possible! lol She's always just said "you know more about this than me, dear"
She still looks at me funny for not being married with two kids yet

Losing a child to adoption affects many women deeply and for many years although, I'm sure that like abortion, the effects vary depending on the circumstances and the woman. Women are beginning to come out from under the societally imposed shame and tell the horror stories of how they were separated from their children without benefit of legal advice, counselling or protection from coercion. This is especially true more recently in part because of the debate over Ontario's proposed Bill 183. It proposes to open adoption records so that women can discover the fate of their lost children and so that adopted adults can find their roots, explore their genetic health issues and perhaps find some answers to their questions.

Anyway, all that to say that adoption, for many women, was never really a choice -- it was a decision imposed on them by others through pressure, lies and an overall lack of support (including inadequate social programs). Perhaps that's true of abortion as well -- a decision made from a place of one's own power and process is probably one that will sit OK through the years, whereas one reached against the person's real desires will probably cause long-term distress.

Given what I've lived with for years as a result of losing my child to adoption (depression, PTSD and increased suicide rates have been well documented in numerous countries among women who have surrendered their children), I would say that, while abortion is not an easy decision for a women, it is the preferable option for those who are not wanting/able to raise a child.

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Originally posted by Loretta:

Perhaps that's true of abortion as well -- a decision made from a place of one's own power and process is probably one that will sit OK through the years, whereas one reached against the person's real desires will probably cause long-term distress.

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I just wanted to commend all of you for the tremendous restraint you showed in not telling Mr. Magoo to fuck himself slowly with a chainsaw in response to his incredibly snide post.

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