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Author Topic: China's parliament 'anti-secession'
TemporalHominid
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posted 12 March 2005 02:10 PM      Profile for TemporalHominid   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
NPC

The draft law states they will seek to reunify Taiwan to China peacefully...


if Taiwan claims independence China would also use non-peaceful means.


From: Under a bridge, in Foot Muck | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 12 March 2005 09:56 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm surprised they didn't call it the Clarity Act.

Anyway, this is pretty much just formalizing what Chinese policy has been toward Taiwan for years.


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 12 March 2005 10:46 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Taiwan's anti-communist league funded right wing death squads in Latin America for years, too. Peasants who could carry the wealth of the bank of China over mountains no farther were ordered shot to death by Chiang's Kuomintang. Maoists who removed their red scarves and were found with traces of red on their necks were also executed on the spot.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 14 March 2005 10:49 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I found an article from last year that goes into some detail about what a Chinese invasion of Taiwan would look like.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FD10Ad02.html


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
mimsy
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posted 14 March 2005 11:21 PM      Profile for mimsy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
Taiwan's anti-communist league funded right wing death squads in Latin America for years, too. Peasants who could carry the wealth of the bank of China over mountains no farther were ordered shot to death by Chiang's Kuomintang. Maoists who removed their red scarves and were found with traces of red on their necks were also executed on the spot.

That was 50 years ago. You have to update your analysis a bit.

Yeah, it's pretty much just a loud, international reiteration of what has been the standing policy for years.


From: mon pays ce n'est pas un pays, c'est la terre | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
thorin_bane
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posted 15 March 2005 01:40 AM      Profile for thorin_bane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There was some report on the CBC about this. They said could you imagine if say Maui decided to claim it's independance from the US, and the Chinese put several Ships to inderdict if the US interfeared with it. What do you think would be the reaction. Because Taiwan is in fact a chinese province. The report made a remark at how such an event can't even register by and large in the states. They don't recognize or see anything from the perspective of juxtoposition(sp) of such an event.

Or you could use vancouver Island as a canadian example. Rememeber when NL took down the flags how much media attention it garnered. And they didn't even attempt anything as close as how close the taiwanese are to seperation from china right now. Not even quebec has been this close to seperation.


From: Looking at the despair of Detroit from across the river! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 15 March 2005 05:34 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mimsy:

That was 50 years ago. You have to update your analysis a bit.

Yeah, it's pretty much just a loud, international reiteration of what has been the standing policy for years.


Ok, today, the idiots call themselves, Spector, I mean, "The World League for Freedom and Democracy. And you're right, they're fascist agenda hasn't changed since 1966.

[ 15 March 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
kuri
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posted 15 March 2005 05:38 AM      Profile for kuri   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I suspect Taiwan is not only about Taiwan anyway. It's not like Taiwan is "so close to separation". They've been de facto independent for several decades. I think it's more a worry about not setting a precedent for other provinces in China, like Hong Kong and Tibet obviously, but also some of the very poor provinces in the interior where there is a lot of unrest over the huge disparities in standard of living.
From: an employer more progressive than rabble.ca | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
sheik yerbouti
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posted 15 March 2005 07:00 AM      Profile for sheik yerbouti     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
i think taiwan are in lots of trouble if china ever invaded. i can't see anyone starting a war over them with china.

however i think it is equally unlikely china would have the cajones to invade taiwan. there would be severe repercussions, if not outright war.


From: aaa | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 15 March 2005 07:55 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by sheik yerbouti:
i think taiwan are in lots of trouble if china ever invaded. i can't see anyone starting a war over them with china.

however i think it is equally unlikely china would have the cajones to invade taiwan. there would be severe repercussions, if not outright war.


the chinese have proven cajones. the forgotten war is unmemorable for a reason. nobody wants a land war with asia. they'd run over us like they did american's. make viet nam seem like picnic.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
nister
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posted 15 March 2005 09:21 AM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks, Doug, for the aitimes source. The author pointed out that Guam received a number of B-52's, stationed there "until no longer needed." Last week the US announced that an undisclosed number of B-2's were to be stationed in Guam. B-2's are high maintenance and high value, they'll need a ton of support infrastructure, hardened hangars, revetments, etc. Their deterrent value in my estimation is negligible as the US is unlikely to risk the forcedown and capture of even one. They can be tracked, and the US knows that's a death warrant for the B-2. The carrier groups pose the real threat to China; however, they too are vulnerable as never before, to the Sunburn anti-ship hypercruise missile. I think China will calculate that the US will "shake a fist", then back away.
From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vigilante
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posted 15 March 2005 05:41 PM      Profile for Vigilante        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So Fidel, are the generation of taiwanese today fascists? It seems many people on that island want nothing to do with Red Fascists. Do you want people on that island to die and be bombed into accepting those shighty vanguardist capitalists?

It's sad that you don't see what a danger to the world the Chinese state has become. It will pretty much vault the US in about a generation, but the reprocutions will be awful.

Let's work to end all empires once and for all.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Panama Jack
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posted 30 March 2005 04:49 AM      Profile for Panama Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I went briefly to the Peace & Democracy protest in Taibei last Saturday, where ~ 1 million Taiwanese stood up for their right not to get rained down by China's imperialist might. ["Right" being, as it unfortunately tends to be, a subjective term, with "might" superceding "right"]. Still, it probably was the only effective thing the Taiwanese and President Chen's Democratic Progressive Party could do.

I have a private lesson over here with an officer in the R.O.C. military who will be strolling through the halls of the Pentagon as a liasion officer in a couple of months. Thankfully (for me), he's a military "dove", and shares many of the same viewpoints on "W's" reign that I do.

He figures that the anti-secession law is mostly just for show, in order to please Hawkish members in the CCP. Then again, he also worries that the ASL could be used by these Hawks (still small but vocal minority within the party) to launch a first strike against the island.

Currently, he estimated that China has ~1500 conventional ballastic (they admit ~700) missles pointed at stategic targets throughout the Island. Two, three at most would take out Taiwan's largest military airport. Needless to say, he ain't much of a fan of Chen's high profile tactics, like most Taiwense, they'd happily go along with the status quo if that meant perpetual peace.

[ 30 March 2005: Message edited by: Panama Jack ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 30 March 2005 06:56 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Vigilante:
So Fidel, are the generation of taiwanese today fascists? It seems many people on that island want nothing to do with Red Fascists. Do you want people on that island to die and be bombed into accepting those shighty vanguardist capitalists?

It's sad that you don't see what a danger to the world the Chinese state has become. It will pretty much vault the US in about a generation, but the reprocutions will be awful.

Let's work to end all empires once and for all.


The U.S. is still the biggest threat militarily, As the British spent wantonly on military at annual rates of twice it's nearest enemies combined, maintaining that military advantage and empire eventually became less and less affordable. The U.S. still considers China and Russia to be potential hostile nations and is why they American's attempt to enforce an arms embargo of China with our European neighbors. Everyone knows that this cold war stuff was never about real threats moreso than it was a shakedown of the American taxpayers for corporate welfare payments to the military industrial complex.

China's experiment in market socialism is becoming a resounding success for a country where desperately poor peasants were being born in rice paddies and living to the ripe old age of 30-35 until Mao changed the course of Chinese history.

Market socialism has been around for several decades. It's described in detail by Karl Polanyi in his book from the 1930's, "The Great Transformation." The general area of Asia was the largest market in the world for a long time. It's poised to regain that status within the next couple of decades. We have to remember that laissez-faire capitalism was saved by Keynesianism, or socialism-lite. Theirs became an economic powerhouse because of massive interventionism in the economy. Even as political conservatism has whittled away at American social democracy since the early 1980's, the model that creates roughly half of the wealth in the US is still due to taxpayer spending on social amenities and services for the middle and working classes: housing programs, pensions that keep the elderly from poverty, public education and, yes, health care, although private-for-profit delivery of health care in the US has made it the most expensive system in the world. The US is not even a real model for capitalism as laissez-faire was rejected by the world over after a 30 year experiment proved disasterous in 1929.

As the remnants of New Deal socialism in the States are hacked away and handed off to private enterprising capitalists, the system will eventually go bankrupt. Socialism is the future.

[ 30 March 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
NDP Newbie
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posted 31 March 2005 06:55 PM      Profile for NDP Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Kuomintang is one of Beijing's right-wing Satellite parties. It is the responsibly of all friends of freedom, socialism, and democracy to stop them.
From: Cornwall, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged

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