The change to extend the dates of Daylight Savings Time, originated in the U.S. Energy Policy Act of 2005, has cost billions in upgrades of software and replacements of hardware, but has resulted in less than zero energy savings.

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Always sold as a conservation measure, the practice of daylight savings actually jacked electricity use in homes across one central U.S. state by up to four per cent, according to a new American study.

"If you could actually get energy savings and decrease carbon dioxide emissions just by adjusting the clock, that's certainly something we should at least consider," says Matthew Kotchen, a University of California-Santa Barbara economics professor who, together with a graduate student, combed over almost 8 million residential meter readings across Indiana to quantify the change in electricity use over three years.

The state offered a perfect case study: Up till 2006, only a handful of its counties pushed their clocks around at all. The vast majority, mostly rural farm communities where daily routines are still largely dictated by sunrise and not an electric clock, stuck stubbornly to standard time year-round. Then, two years ago, the entire state standardized their clocks and joined the daylight savings movement. That provided both a bulk of data and a control group.

The results? Instead of saving electricity and money by adding an extra hour of sunlight to evenings most of the year, it cost Indiana homes an extra $8.6 million in electricity bills – mostly from chugging air conditioners – each year. And since 95 per cent of that extra energy was generated by coal-fired power plants, that meant much more atmosphere-warming carbon dioxide was spewed into the air.

Expanded nationally, those results would translate to at least two coal-fired electricity plants pumping power just to feed the daylight savings habit. - Toronto Star, March 9, 2008

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The changeover also disrupts businesses. For example, Australian news media report that the online auction company eBay this month forgot to adjust its clocks in Australia for daylight saving, creating chaos as customers wondered when auctions would actually end.

If that item is confusing, it's because Australia made its switch last weekend -- and, because it's "down under," it's starting its Daylight Saving Time. That's just one example how, in our global economy, the time changes are only going to cause more and more havoc.

It's even dangerous, scientists concluded after reviewing traffic data. On the fall Mondays following the changeover, pedestrians walking during the evening rush hour are nearly three times more likely to be struck and killed by cars than before the time change, according to a study by two Carnegie Mellon University researchers. The end of Daylight Saving Time results in about 37 more U.S. pedestrian deaths around 6 p.m. in November compared to October, they concluded. - Daily Herald, Utah, today

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:
Maybe they haven't had the time.

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It's time for change!

It's change for time!

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Originally posted by Erstwhile:
What makes you think daylight wants to be "saved", anyway?

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The whole of China has had a single time zone since 1980, although it stretches far into the west.

Still, most Uighurs use Xinjiang time, which is two hours ahead (and more accurately reflects the position of the sun).

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For anyone who hopes to have Han and Uighur friends, this makes arranging any kind of meeting incredibly tiresome. You will frequently be two hours early, or late, even when you think you have specified whether the time of meeting is Xinjiang or Beijing shi dian. For many Uighurs, this imposition of the wrong time zone is more than simply absurd. It sums up the arrogance and indifference of the Chinese government to the fact that Xinjiang is so markedly different to the rest of China. You could almost be forgiven for thinking it was a separate country.

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Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Where do you people put all that time you've saved?

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I've got no time for Standard questions like that.

ETA: At this point in the discussion, I'm tempted to switch over to Miller Time.

[ 01 November 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

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Originally posted by unionist:
It's time for change!

It's change for time!

The future is hours!

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"Constant Saskatchewan Time."

Now go play with your sundials.

[ 01 November 2008: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]

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Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Y'know what CST means?

"Constant Saskatchewan Time."

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:
I've got parsley, sage and rosemary. Something's missing....

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Originally posted by jrootham:
Some sage advice, I'd be partial to Rosemary if I had the time.

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China, India and Japan are the only major industrialized countries that do not observe some form of daylight saving. China tried summer Daylight Saving Time from 1986 through 1991, but quit. Maybe they have the right idea?

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Continued from HERE

The change to extend the dates of Daylight Savings Time, originated in the U.S. Energy Policy Act of 2005, has cost billions in upgrades of software and replacements of hardware, but has resulted in less than zero energy savings.

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It's why Canadians should read those solar energy texts out of southern California with some skepticism on the most optimistic chapters.

This, after months of arriving to work in the dark, and just beginning to see the sun in the morning.

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Originally posted by Malcolm:
If you want more sunlight, get up earlier. It's not like DST actually gives more hours of sunlight. (You guys do understand that, eh?)

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I thought it was invented by some British entrepeneur and promoted by Winston Churchill? Now, the eight working hour day is a socialist concept.

[ 03 November 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
The one that gets me is in the early spring when those polytheists decide to push the clock ahead, engulfing their mornings in yet more darkness.

This, after months of arriving to work in the dark, and just beginning to see the sun in the morning.

It would drive me crazy.

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NO KIDDING. The "falling back" in autumn isn't so bad - an extra hour of sleep is always welcome. But in the spring when you lose an hour? Ick. Some years, I feel jetlagged for several days afterwards. And the time changes are NO fun with very young children, when you finally get them to sleep and wake on a schedule and then they get totally thrown off.

"Spring ahead fall back"

You can take it to mean an physical action taken, and hopefully, as for me I won't forget what happens twice a year.

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Originally posted by Brian White:
Daylight savings time is a socalist concept, so I doubt that you can understand.

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Your contention is utter bullshit - like much of what you post here.

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Originally posted by Brian White:
Daylight savings time is a socalist concept, so I doubt that you can understand.

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"The hours aren't bad, but most of the actual minutes suck."

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Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Huh? Like, "The minutes drag and the hours jerk," or is there some redistribution of seconds from the rich to the poor that I'm missing?

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You go for a beer, go shopping, go cycling or walking around town AFTER work.

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Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

I must have magic powers, then, as I am able to do all those things IN THE DARK!

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We don't want Daylight Saving Time here.

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Originally posted by Malcolm:
Your contention is utter bullshit - like much of what you post here.

And I understand socialism and social democracy just fine. You, OTOH, believe that all the fuckwits should vote as you tell them to vote.

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Malcolm, once again, probably for the 50th time, I'm going to tell you that your personal attacks aren't welcome on babble. If you can't control yourself, then step away from the computer.

Brian, that goes for you too - please don't tell other babblers that you "doubt they can understand" something - it's insulting and rude.

[ 05 November 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Malcolm, once again, probably for the 50th time, I'm going to tell you that your personal attacks aren't welcome on babble. If you can't control yourself, then step away from the computer.

Brian, that goes for you too - please don't tell other babblers that you "doubt they can understand" something - it's insulting and rude.

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My favourite is Creston which is like Sask. a DST free zone. Since the time line runs through their city they get to decide which time zone Mountain or Pacific they want to be on. They merely change the sign on the highway saying you are going through a time change from one side of the town to the other twice a year. it makes it fun though to go to meetings from Nelson or Cranbrook because it is hard to remember what time they are on. The people in the kootenays think it is because the area has a high population of retired farmers from Sask.

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Originally posted by remind:

Not wanting to get in this or anything like that, and am just saying this as a point of clarity, malcolm was throwing brian's word of "fuckwits" back at him. As that is what brian has called those who do not believe in strategic voting, and those who did not vote for briony penn and the Liberals.

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Thank you. I don't think Michelle had caught the significance of Brian's post = possibly not noticing the connection to the other thread. This thread had been going along just fine with lot's of reasonably friendly banter until one poster decided to troll.

That said, she's right to say that I shouldn't have returned fire - at least not quite the way that I did.

That said, I still won't vote for a right wing party, and Brian can't make me.

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Originally posted by Malcolm:

Thank you. I don't think Michelle had caught the significance of Brian's post = possibly not noticing the connection to the other thread. This thread had been going along just fine with lot's of reasonably friendly banter until one poster decided to troll.

That said, she's right to say that I shouldn't have returned fire - at least not quite the way that I did.

That said, I still won't vote for a right wing party, and Brian can't make me.

And I still won't change my clock, and Brian can't make me.

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Originally posted by Fidel:
I think DST was designed to save industrialists money in a bygone era when shiftwork wasn't so prevalent. They were more concerned about saving on light bills than inconveniencing people in general.

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Originally posted by Brian White:
daylight savings time was proposed by a guy in england who wanted to share the joy of outdoor living with other people who were more tied to the clock than he was.

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Originally posted by laughingatu:
I support DST. I believe that it is human instinct to "feel tired" at dark, and that extra hour of light allows me time to spend with my family and friends before my internal clock tells me it is time to recharge.

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Where you live in a time zone makes almost as much difference. If you live in Vancouver instead of Nelson the difference in when the sun rises and falls is about 25 minutes. Between Thunder Bay and Trois Riveres is over an hour.

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
We have the same amount of light regardless of using DST or just the same old standard time. Whether or not it means anything to an individual depends on when they normally arise it is certainly not some universal truism.

Where you live in a time zone makes almost as much difference. If you live in Vancouver instead of Nelson the difference in when the sun rises and falls is about 25 minutes. Between Thunder Bay and Trois Riveres is over an hour.

So I just don't get who it actually benefits especially the further north you get.

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I believes it benifits people up north most because they have more extra light in the summer.

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"Cue The Sun."

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
The light is the same no matter what clock you use. Its the sun and the rotation of the planet that determines how much light you get. Word games and lines on a map don't produce a single second of extra light.

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
The light is the same no matter what clock you use. Its the sun and the rotation of the planet that determines how much light you get. Word games and lines on a map don't produce a single second of extra light.

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Nothing precludes anyone from getting up in the morning.

If our refusal to adapt this horological witchcraft bothers you so much, you are welcome not to move here.

In the meantime, every national conference call I was on this week, I heard Canadians from the ten benighted provinces expressing their envy of our simple Saskatchewan ways.

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Originally posted by Malcolm:
Moving your clock does not have any affect on how many hours of sunlight there are.

Nothing precludes anyone from getting up in the morning.

If our refusal to adapt this horological witchcraft bothers you so much, you are welcome not to move here.

In the meantime, every national conference call I was on this week, I heard Canadians from the ten benighted provinces expressing their envy of our simple Saskatchewan ways.

We don't care to change our clocks, and you can't make us.

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Originally posted by genstrike:
I think there is a safety aspect to DST for children going to school. In the best of times, they aren't exactly the most respectful of traffic signals and laws. I don't think it is a particularly good idea to have these kids walking to school in low visibility conditions if we can avoid it.

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Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
How many kids are walking home from school in the dark during the summer?

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Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
How many kids are walking home from school in the dark during the summer?

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Not a lot because the days are longer.

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And kids aren't in school then either.

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But I think the point is to keep kids from walking there in the dark in winter...

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Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

When Daylight Saving Time isn't in effect?

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Originally posted by Malcolm:
There are not "more" hours of sunlight.

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Originally posted by Malcolm:
There are not "more" hours of sunlight.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
NO KIDDING. The "falling back" in autumn isn't so bad - an extra hour of sleep is always welcome. But in the spring when you lose an hour? Ick. Some years, I feel jetlagged for several days afterwards. And the time changes are NO fun with very young children, when you finally get them to sleep and wake on a schedule and then they get totally thrown off.

I'd like us to get rid of it. Maybe I should move to Saskatchewan!

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Hear! Hear!

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Originally posted by genstrike:

Wait... winter is normal time for DST? I thought it was summer

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Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Yes, that's my point, Einstein.

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Thanks for being so respectful of people who make a simple mistake.

But seriously, I think the question here is whether the extra daylight in the evening (for most people who work during regular business hours) is worth the pain in the ass to switch twice a year. I have to say I appreciate the extra daylight in the evening in the summer. It makes it a little safer to ride my bike around, people feel a little safer walking around when it's still light, and it is a little warmer and nicer if you're hanging out with friends at a restaurant with a patio (things which I do a lot less in the winter).

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Originally posted by genstrike:

Thanks for being so respectful of people who make a simple mistake.

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