Author
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Topic: cosmetics and fashion - oppression or consumerism?
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otter
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12062
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posted 11 March 2006 04:36 PM
This is a issue that has long been on my mind, so excuse me if it has been discussed here before. But first let me preface this thread with the fact that i have made these points to lots of men and women i have known and few disagree with the overall perspective that the way we have allowed cosmetics and fashion to dominate our existence looks a lot more like oppression than simply consumerism. Cosmetics. The attempt to look like someone you are not. Most people, especially women - but men are quickly joining their ranks -, look rather silly and even a few look down right ridiculous [Tammy Fay anyone?] with eye shadow, eye liner, lipsticks, powders and paints on their faces. One of the most insane items to put near your eye is mascara which makes eyelashes look clumped, painted or just messed with and even stings apparently. Next time you see a man or women trying to look younger and prettier than then they, in fact, are take a close look at your own response. I suspect you will find embarassment, ridicule or even revulsion among some of the more common feelings. Bottom line on cosmetics, they taste terrible to your lover and are a barrier to real body to body intimacy since so many of them contain perfumes and other ingredients that provoke allergic reactions of all kinds. fashions. Has anyone ever seen a fashion designer that didn't look and act like an escapee from a psyche ward? This industry appears to be little more than a continuation of children's dressup times. Talk about infantile, un-thinking consumerer adults. Fashion has nothing to do with comfort or affordability. Fashion is all about mindlessly ogling un-natural looking models, wearing un-comfortable and impractical items while stomping around in un-natural footwear in an unrealistic and spine wrenching manner of walking. perfumes. They were created to mask the odors of rotting flesh and other un-hiegenic consequences of cosmetics and inappropriate fasion [wearling heavy wool or brocade clothing in sweltering temperatures for example]. All perfumes are un-natural scents and provoke moderate to severe allegic reations by assailing their unwitting victims in public settings. Oh yes, and i find it all rather ludicrious too
From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006
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wedge_oli
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6378
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posted 11 March 2006 05:05 PM
I don't think that, necessarily, makeup is a bad thing. Its not really, if its done reasonably, trying to make yourself look like somebody you're not... I see it more as just one of many forms of grooming (getting a hair cut, shaving, combing your hair) that most of us, whether we admit it or not, partake in.I think that the cosmetics industry, however, provides an interesting viewpoint into how feminist themes have been woven into consumer culture. I remember sitting for half an hour in the cosmetics section of Bloomingdales, while my girlfriend got a "free" make-up session done... The message that one comes away with is that it is empowering to be able to control your appearance: it is the hallmark of the strong, independant, modern woman to use makeup to take control of her appearance. There is little mention of doing it to please a husband, or boyfriend, or anyone else but one's self. And as twisted, and selfish, as that is, I think that the message has really hijacked alot of feminist themes and manipulated them as marketing tools.
From: Montreal, QC and St. Catharines Ontario | Registered: Jun 2004
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Yst
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9749
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posted 11 March 2006 05:22 PM
quote: Originally posted by otter: Cosmetics. The attempt to look like someone you are not.
So what do I really look like, and who defines this for me? Get me in contact with them, because often I express who I really am visually in colours and forms and effects which involve cosmetics, and if this isn't me after all that I'm expressing, I'd best figure out who this real me is, you know, if there's someone who's more in touch with me than I am who can tell me I've got it all wrong. quote: Most people, especially women - but men are quickly joining their ranks -, look rather silly and even a few look down right ridiculous [Tammy Fay anyone?] with eye shadow, eye liner, lipsticks, powders and paints on their faces.
So now your complaint is not that it's oppressive, but that it's ugly? Tammy Faye shouldn't have made herself look the way she did because you don't approve of her fashion? What if she approves? What if she likes the way she looks? At any rate, it's an interesting movie. quote: One of the most insane items to put near your eye is mascara which makes eyelashes look clumped, painted or just messed with and even stings apparently.
More fashion police rhetoric from the anti-fashion police? Look, if makeup isn't your thing, okay, but if you don't dig it, at least don't tell those who do how to use it. quote: Next time you see a man or women trying to look younger and prettier than then they, in fact, are take a close look at your own response. I suspect you will find embarassment, ridicule or even revulsion among some of the more common feelings.
And I even wear underarm deoderant in order to stink less than I, in fact, do. Isn't it horrible how untrue we are to ourselves? quote: Bottom line on cosmetics, they taste terrible to your lover and are a barrier to real body to body intimacy since so many of them contain perfumes and other ingredients that provoke allergic reactions of all kinds.
And now they're bad because they're a turn-off? What if, just maybe, they aren't always so? I think you're rather oversimplifying this with your sweeping generalisations. quote: fashions. Has anyone ever seen a fashion designer that didn't look and act like an escapee from a psyche ward?
And lots of them are queers too. Really nancy boys. Watch out for them sort. quote: This industry appears to be little more than a continuation of children's dressup times. Talk about infantile, un-thinking consumerer adults.
...sticks and stones will break my bones... quote: Fashion has nothing to do with comfort or affordability. Fashion is all about mindlessly ogling un-natural looking models, wearing un-comfortable and impractical items while stomping around in un-natural footwear in an unrealistic and spine wrenching manner of walking.
You seem to have really refined this category encompassing all things abominable which is titled fashion here. Don't worry about, you know, relating it to reality or anything. quote: perfumes. They were created to mask the odors of rotting flesh and other un-hiegenic consequences of cosmetics and inappropriate fasion [wearling heavy wool or brocade clothing in sweltering temperatures for example]. All perfumes are un-natural scents and provoke moderate to severe allegic reations by assailing their unwitting victims in public settings.
Again, just a bit of a generalisation? Things you smell may kill you. [ 11 March 2006: Message edited by: Yst ]
From: State of Genderfuck | Registered: Jun 2005
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nonsuch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1402
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posted 11 March 2006 05:30 PM
quote: There is little mention of doing it to please a husband, or boyfriend, or anyone else but one's self.
Maybe so.... But think about it. Who really puts on half an hour's and $15's worth of makeup, just to admire hemself in the mirror? Wouldn't most people, most of the time, be happier unwashed, uncombed, un-highlighted, un-painted, un-tooth-bleached, in their grungy old sweat-suits? When we make an effort, it's for other people. We say it's for ourselves, because we're not sure other people will notice (often true) or care (mostly true) or like us the more for it (usually true), but we don't want them to have a reason to criticize and reject us. If we are young - or, even more, not-so-young - and looking for a mate, we want to present the best possible outside, in order to entice prospective mates to approach and investigate the inside. Advertising for cosmetics has all of that covered. Clothing fashion is a different - perhaps extraterestrial - story.
From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001
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lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534
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posted 11 March 2006 05:36 PM
The first post really bothers me. Not because I want women or men to be Stepford wives or husbands, but because it fails to understand how important decoration has been to human beings ... since humans were human. I've been translating a lot of documents on Aboriginal peoples - decoration of mocassins, clothing and housewares, but also face and body painting, jewellery etc. I certainly don't want to make myself look older or uglier... And yes, I do hide the greys. I don't slather on foundation because it isn't either attractive or good for the skin, but I have eye makeup and lipstick for those times when I want to transform myself - theatrically. I'm a brunette with thick, dark (except for greys) too-kinky hair and the thick black eyelashes to go with it, so I've never worn mascara, but I know people of a paler hue - or less-hairy Asians - who are transformed by such subterfuges. In particular in the theatre. Yes, it is too bad how corporate capitalism tends to make people feel like shit to sell stuff, but decoration goes back long before. As for the fashion designers as freaks, that does strike me as a bit homophobic. I'd criticise fashion designers for only designing for a very young, very thin and androgynous figure, but not for "being" different...
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002
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ephemeral
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8881
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posted 11 March 2006 06:29 PM
quote: Originally posted by otter: Cosmetics. The attempt to look like someone you are not.
Or the attempt to enhance one's own looks (whether one's own looks are good or bad to begin with is irrelevant). Everybody likes to think they look attractive, and if cosmetics help, why not use them? Cosmetics have been used for centuries using all kinds of natural and man-made products. Why? Because people like the way some products and/or accessories bring out certain good features, hide unwanted features, gives them confidence and adds a sparkle to one's overall general appearance. quote: One of the most insane items to put near your eye is mascara which makes eyelashes look clumped, painted or just messed with and even stings apparently.
You know, if you see someone whose mascara is spread that badly all over their eyelids, you could try telling them verrry, verrrry, veeerrrrry politely. They just might appreciate your feedback, and get it fixed. Or learn to apply it better. Most people I've seen don't apply mascara the way you've described it. They apply it just right and it brings out the colour of their eyes quite nicely. Okay, time for fashion tip of the day: When applying make-up, apply it so that it enhances your looks AND it looks like you're not wearing any. Just an itsy-bitsy wee bit of make-up is all that's needed to make one look ultra-gorgeous. quote: Next time you see a man or women trying to look younger and prettier than then they, in fact, are take a close look at your own response. I suspect you will find embarassment, ridicule or even revulsion among some of the more common feelings.
As a general rule, I try not to make a judgement or form an opinion on somebody else's fashion sense. I am sure they looked in the mirror and approved of themselves before leaving home, and I try to respect their sense of style, even if I would never adorn myself in the same fashion. quote: Bottom line on cosmetics, they taste terrible to your lover
I can't speak for other women, but if/when I use cosmetics (which I rarely do), I use them for myself, not for my lover. So, I really couldn't care less if he didn't like the taste. I would probably only remove it before we kiss. quote: and are a barrier to real body to body intimacy since so many of them contain perfumes and other ingredients that provoke allergic reactions of all kinds.
True, but with any other product that contains common allergens, cosmetics are to be used with care and consideration. quote: fashions. Has anyone ever seen a fashion designer that didn't look and act like an escapee from a psyche ward? This industry appears to be little more than a continuation of children's dressup times. Talk about infantile, un-thinking consumerer adults.
Gee, you're really down on differences in fashion, aren't you? quote: Fashion has nothing to do with comfort or affordability. Fashion is all about mindlessly ogling un-natural looking models, wearing un-comfortable and impractical items while stomping around in un-natural footwear in an unrealistic and spine wrenching manner of walking.
You see what you want to see. Fashion doesn't have to be what you've just described. It isn't always like that everywhere. quote: inappropriate fasion [wearling heavy wool or brocade clothing in sweltering temperatures for example].
People wear heavy wool in sweltering temperatures? I don't think it is fair to say that cosmetics and fashion by themselves that are oppression or consumerism. That is too simplistic. The big criminal here is capitalism. I think you have half a point in your thread title, but all your arguments after that in your first post are not very convincing. Fashion can be oppressive for some when they feel pressured to look a certain way by media, by celebrities, by peer pressure. But not for the reasons you've mentioned. I myself wear make up once in a blue moon, my socks don't match, I don't wear deodarant or perfume, the only accessories I wear are hats, no jewelry, and I don't wear the same trendy clothes that I see most people wearing on the street. But I very much respect other people's desire to look entirely different, and decorate themselves in all kinds of neat attire. It's something of an art.
From: under a bridge with a laptop | Registered: Apr 2005
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goyanamasu
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12173
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posted 11 March 2006 06:48 PM
This is a feminism thread. So question: Do women also 'do' what almost freaks me out in some men: wear rose-tinted contact lenses? On light-hued irises, in the sun, some of these make a certain type of male look like an albino. Not that I've got anything against albinos. There are many things decorative I don't like on skin, walls or lawns. But only the 'surprise' options, when they become fashion, are worth discussing in a public forum in my take. The toupee has often been laughed at. Who am I to do anything more than strut my natural look for the world to admire? Take it or leave it. EDIT: Changed 'were' to 'wear' Calling this look 'were wolf' would be an exaggeration. [ 11 March 2006: Message edited by: goyanamasu ]
From: End Arbitrary Management Style Now | Registered: Mar 2006
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ShyViolet
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6611
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posted 11 March 2006 09:17 PM
I don't think that if you wear makeup you're trying to look like someone you're not. At least, that's not why I wear it (unless it's Halloween). I wear makeup to accentuate the parts of my face I like the best. Mascara is actually my favorite cosmetic, and if it looks stringy, painted, or clumpy, then you're applying it wrong. Now as for why I wear makeup... wearing makeup (and perfume) makes me feel pretty and thus more confident. So, if I need some confidence, I might just wear a little bit of makeup. I have never felt embarassment, revulsion, or ridicule upon seeing another person wear makeup, unless of course, they've overdone it and look like a clown. As for perfume, if you apply it with a light (and considerate!) hand, it shouldn't bother most people. I do know what you mean though about people who smell like they've bathed in it (ick!)Bottom line (imo), makeup and perfume are fine as long as they are used in moderation. [ 11 March 2006: Message edited by: ShyViolet ]
From: ~Love is like pi: natural, irrational, and very important~ | Registered: Aug 2004
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het heru
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11011
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posted 13 March 2006 07:36 PM
The only thing I remotely agree with in that initial post is the scent issue. I love perfume, but out of deference to those with allergies I rarely wear it in public.I miss it intensely, though (not that I ever bathed in it). I also rarely wear makeup but that is out of sheer laziness (even though I am really quite skilled and fast about its application). I am lucky enough to have the facial structure to be attractive without it, and frankly, there are moments when I've put it on that it becomes a PITA because it is a noticeable difference in the amount of attention I get. Makeup can highlight your strong features (never try to camouflage the "weak" ones - it really just calls attention to them) and it can be used to express yourself (ask any goth).
And yes, I DO do it for me. Men will hit on anything in a skirt, so frankly, they're irrelevant. (It would be like writing a manual on "How to pick up men" when "hi" will suffice.) I am also a huge fan of natural products as opposed to those with chemical preservatives. If you see "mineral oil" in the ingredients, or anything you cannot pronounce, put it down immediately. On the other hand, I also have several feather boas (and not the $20 jobbies), so you can well imagine that I like being girlie. I don't think there is anything wrong with pampering yourself if you want to, when you want to.
From: Where Sekhmet sleeps | Registered: Nov 2005
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otter
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12062
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posted 24 March 2006 06:17 PM
It doesn't matter how much makeup a person - male or female - wears, the message is always the same. That is to say, thsoe that spend all that time and money on their outward appearance are really saying that they are as artifical a person as the products they wear. Perhaps the propensity for excessive use of makeup is an evolutionary mechanism warning the rest of us which people are not worth the effort getting to know. But if folks spent as much time and money working on their inner stuff such as emotinal maturity, postive self-worth, a healty self image and self honesty they would be a lot further ahead in every way. I know the rest of us would definitely be better off not having all those toxic products in our environment.
From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006
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fern hill
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3582
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posted 24 March 2006 06:31 PM
quote: Originally posted by otter: It doesn't matter how much makeup a person - male or female - wears, the message is always the same. That is to say, thsoe that spend all that time and money on their outward appearance are really saying that they are as artifical a person as the products they wear. Perhaps the propensity for excessive use of makeup is an evolutionary mechanism warning the rest of us which people are not worth the effort getting to know. But if folks spent as much time and money working on their inner stuff such as emotinal maturity, postive self-worth, a healty self image and self honesty they would be a lot further ahead in every way. I know the rest of us would definitely be better off not having all those toxic products in our environment.
Gee, looky here, otter starts a thread with a question, but really knew what he thought all along. And he seems to be taking mega-dose Judgemental tablets. I wear make-up occasionally. My sweetie likes it. So, if we ever run into each other, otter, I'm the one of the ones not worth getting to know. And I'm sure it'll be mutual.
From: away | Registered: Jan 2003
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lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534
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posted 24 March 2006 07:47 PM
Otter, you scare the living daylights out of me: quote: It doesn't matter how much makeup a person - male or female - wears, the message is always the same. That is to say, thsoe that spend all that time and money on their outward appearance are really saying that they are as artifical a person as the products they wear. Perhaps the propensity for excessive use of makeup is an evolutionary mechanism warning the rest of us which people are not worth the effort getting to know. Bizarre, I never was a bimbo type, not even when I was young and purty.
This past couple of years, I've devoted ooddles of free labour on a refugee case - EVERYTHING had to be translated, and certified, as the refugee had been deported to the US since he arrived from there. And that is just an example. I wear little makeup because I don't like the feeling unless I am deliberately playing dress-up. But you will let me colour my hair. Please, pretty please? Especially when I'm working with "new media" people half my age? But if folks spent as much time and money working on their inner stuff such as emotinal maturity, postive self-worth, a healty self image and self honesty they would be a lot further ahead in every way. I know the rest of us would definitely be better off not having all those toxic products in our environment.
I could retort by saying that people who have the luxury of spending a lot of time and money working on their "inner stuff" (scrupulously avoiding spelling and syntax flames, tempting though it is) are frigging new-agey yuppie types, bathing in privilege. Trust me; I've seen them. You really wouldn't like hanging out with theatre people, eh?
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002
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Nikita
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9050
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posted 24 March 2006 07:54 PM
quote: Originally posted by otter: It doesn't matter how much makeup a person - male or female - wears, the message is always the same. That is to say, thsoe that spend all that time and money on their outward appearance are really saying that they are as artifical a person as the products they wear. Perhaps the propensity for excessive use of makeup is an evolutionary mechanism warning the rest of us which people are not worth the effort getting to know. But if folks spent as much time and money working on their inner stuff such as emotinal maturity, postive self-worth, a healty self image and self honesty they would be a lot further ahead in every way. I know the rest of us would definitely be better off not having all those toxic products in our environment.
My mascara makes me unworthy of human affection? *slaps forehead* Why didn't I get that memo? Asshat.
From: Regina | Registered: Apr 2005
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lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534
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posted 24 March 2006 08:09 PM
Rebel, Rebel (Bowie) You’ve got your mother in a whirl She’s not sure if you’re a boy or a girl Hey babe, your hair’s all right Hey babe, let’s go out tonight You like me, and I like it all We like dancing and we look divine You love bands when they’re playing hard You want more and you want it fast They put you down, they say I’m wrong You tacky thing, you put them on Rebel rebel, you’ve torn your dress Rebel rebel, your face is a mess Rebel rebel, how could they know? Hot tramp, I love you so! Don’t ya? Doo doo doo-doo doo doo doo doo You’ve got your mother in a whirl ’cause she’s Not sure if you’re a boy or a girl Hey babe, your hair’s alright Hey babe, let’s stay out tonight You like me, and I like it all We like dancing and we look divine You love bands when they’re playing hard You want more and you want it fast They put you down, they say I’m wrong You tacky thing, you put them on Rebel rebel, you’ve torn your dress Rebel rebel, your face is a mess Rebel rebel, how could they know? Hot tramp, I love you so! Don’t ya? Oh? Doo doo doo-doo doo doo doo doo Doo doo doo-doo doo doo doo doo Rebel rebel, you’ve torn your dress Rebel rebel, your face is a mess Rebel rebel, how could they know? Hot tramp, I love you so! You’ve torn your dress, your face is a mess You can’t get enough, but enough ain’t the test You’ve got your transmission and your live wire You got your cue line and a handful of ludes You wanna be there when they count up the dudes And I love your dress You’re a juvenile success Because your face is a mess So how could they know? I said, how could they know? So what you wanna know Calamity’s child, chi-chile, chi-chile Where’d you wanna go? What can I do for you? looks like you’ve been there too ’cause you’ve torn your dress And your face is a mess Oh, your face is a mess Oh, oh, so how could they know? Eh, eh, how could they know? Eh, eh
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002
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Stargazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6061
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posted 24 March 2006 08:20 PM
@ Nikita. Good one!We should just cancel our gym memberships (concentrating on building a stronger better looking more powerful body is so passé). Throw all the makeup out you shallow biatches! I'm not going first. Nikita? You? Asshat is right. Otterly ridicules.
From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004
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