http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=bc_hockey-locker20050712

edit: I wonder what the boys on the team think about having a girl change in the same locker room.

[ 13 July 2005: Message edited by: Nikita ]

And the only person to consider here isn't the person changing - it's the people they are changing in front of.

I mean when I go to the gym they wouldn't let a man come and change in our facilities based on him feeling comfortable with it. They'd be attentive to how all of the people around would feel.

And lets not forget the boys have to change as well.

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aristotleded24:
What are your thoughts on this?

Since you raised the subject, let's hear your thoughts first.

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Good question to raise. Personally, I lean towards having separate changerooms, but I have other questions. As a society we have very strict norms about bodies being exposed. I understand the coach's point about harassment; heck, many teens that age feel uncomfortable being seen naked by anyone. In some cultures, that's not a big deal.

Yet, am I a conservative traditionalist? Do we as a society need to re-examine our attitudes on the issue? Would people be so self-conscious of their body image if they weren't bombarded by messages about that the body should look like?

The best solution is for everybody boys and girls to put their gear on at home except for skates, helmets, gloves and put the rest on in the shared dressing room.

Lots of kids even at high levels get dressed at home.

From the article:
The Emlyns say the solution is shared change rooms with a dress code. And that when it comes time to shower, they say the minority gender would have to leave the room.

[ 14 July 2005: Message edited by: Lukewarm ]

If they forget or don't have time to put on the hockey underclothes before they get to the rink, well, they can change that bit in a bathroom stall.

I think a good solution would be to have one big common changeroom with separate men's and women's toilet/shower facilities. Although, as BleedingHeart points out, it's pretty rare in my experience that anyone showers at the rink (except the one indoor rink that has a real women's changeroom with a clean shower, perhaps attributable to its large figure skating program). But in general, rink showers? Eeeeuw!

I play on a co-ed (mostly male) team here. There are so few women hockey players that at the outdoor rink where I play in winter, the two changerooms are in practice broken down, not girls vs. boys, but pleasure skaters vs. hockey players. If women are there, we have to use an equipment room that you get to by walking through the hockey changeroom. So occasionally I've gotten an unexpected eyeful

Even when there *are* two changerooms, the rinks typically don't mark them "men" and "women" (often using them for two opposing teams of the same sex), so men will often go into all of them. As a result, it's pretty common, if you play on a co-ed team, you'll end up having to change in front of men.

As for the delicate sensibilities of hockey players, I don't see the big deal. I dress so I'll be decent in front of them, and my teammates don't care. Once or twice, at pickup hockey, I've had some old guy glare at me, but tough luck. Where am I supposed to change -- outdoors? I've never had a young guy (under, say, 45) complain about it. They try to be modest if there's a woman in the changeroom ... well, most of them do

One thing I've learned through this: middle-aged beer-league players don't always look so hot in a jockstrap ...

[ 14 July 2005: Message edited by: puzzlic ]

I'm not normally a fan of "slippery slope arguments, but I agree with Bob McCuaig, as quoted in the article:

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"In order to have a safe environment for everybody, where they are not going to feel threatened I would rather have a girl feel a little bit left out than threatened by, 'I have to change in the room with guys.'"

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There was some adolescent snickering at first, but then the guys just got over it.

Here, though, we are dealing with actual adolescents. Still, if the showers are the only problem and even then not much of a problem, as others have said above, then someone's suggestion of redesigned showers sounds good.

[ 15 July 2005: Message edited by: skdadl ]

Of course, I'm not a teenager and I always have at least a couple of male friends there (which I assume would also be true of this girl, since she's on the team). I'm not saying sexual harassment could never occur. I just think the girl has a point: if she wants to be part of the locker-room banter, why exclude her?

[ 15 July 2005: Message edited by: puzzlic ]

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Here, though, we are dealing with actual adolescents. Still, if the showers are the only problem

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Well, skdadl, I was reading this thread and wondering "so what's the problem, so long as the gril player is cool with it?". And, "I can't imagine that her male team-mates would mind". But somehow, your post brought to mind the real *problem*. As a male oldfart, way back in the dep recesses of memory I recall a certain irrepressible phenomenon in adolescent boys, that of unintended, unwanted physical response. And it is a *problem* even absent full nudity. In fact, I distinctly recall that beeath an athletic support and protective cup, it is a quite unfortable and even painful condition, not to mention distracting. And I could see that being a real problem for even the purest of mind (thinking Hailey's youngsters here ) fellows on the team.

Hell, I remember one time during the playing of "O Canada" in the 8th grade that one boy, who was unfortunately wearing sweatpants, was unable to stop himself from saluting, much to the (admittedly cruel) amusement of half the class.

I don't think you can blame the girl for that. It just happens and the best solution, I think, it not to draw attention to it.

The reason I think separate shower arrangements -- if any showering is needed, and some above don't seem to think it is, much -- would be a good idea is the problem Ron Webb raises: this female player might be comfortable even with those, but would others? If showers are needed, separate showers should be available.

I am smiling at the memory of an attempt to make the washrooms in the editorial department of U of T Press co-ed. Hee. What a failure.

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it's pretty rare in my experience that anyone showers at the rink

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I find it amazing (and a bit off-putting) that people don't. You skate around for an hour in heavy equipment and most players (male and female) are sweating pretty profusely when they come off the ice. Then many simply get changed into their street clothes (and most often winter coats and the like) and, if your an adult player you oftentimes go to the bar, where you sit with all your fellow sweaty teammates. Then you drive home, fermenting away.

(In my youth I was a member of the YMCA in Ottawa and we had communal showers - no big deal, but male only.)

In 1975 - 77 when I did my undergraduate at Trent I lived in the Traill College Residence, second floor, where we had co-ed washrooms. Each washroom had three private toilets, three private cubbies with wash basin, mirror, shelf, and a curtain for privacy. There was just one shower stall - private, with a lock on the door handle. It didn't present any problem until the weekends when folks were drinking and were a bit more boisterous and loose, and I think using these coed washrooms during those times became more uncomfortable for all concerned. I know we had a Head of College Meeting where we discussed enforcing rules of conduct on resident floors, and these rules were subsequently adopted. Still, I was completely aghast that no one saw these problems developing when co-ed washrooms were first proposed. BTW, yes, I was an older, more mature student at the time than most in residence, having decided to return to higher ed and make a change of career.

It's my conviction that proposals for co-ed arrangements involving changing clothes or using washroom facilities need to be carefully thought out.

[ 15 July 2005: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]