I think it unlikely that the Communist Party of China will ever be more sensitive to international public opinion than it is in these precious pre-Olympic months. Although this recent wave of events got sparked off in the homeland of the 14th Dalai Lama, it goes well beyond Tibet. There’s Myanmar, Darfur, Xinjiang, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Tiananmen, human rights within China.

There’s lax environmental regulation that endangers not only the people in China, but the entire world. Like airborne mercury travelling from China to faraway places, just to name a little example. These lax environmental regulations also allow the life-destroying effects of profligate consumption in industrialized countries to be swept under a big toxic rug. People in the west think their electronics waste is being “managed” when actually it just gets dumped in places like China, where some components of the planned obsolescence may be scavenged, but plenty of it isn’t. Lo and behold the e-waste may eventually make its way back as fine windborne toxic particles to those who trashed it for this year’s model – call it environmental justice. Lax environmental regulations in China allow people in other, oh-so-righteous countries with “enlightened” environmental regulations to live under the illusion that they are taking responsibility for the full life cycle of the products they consume by shipping them off to some poisonous pile in China, in a makeshift village populated by peasants forced off their food-bearing land to make monster mansions for their compatriots who act as middlemen in their exploitation. (China is communist only in name, Fidel.)

There’s the lax labour regulation, that allows China to be the sweatshop for a shiny new beautiful globalized fatass industrial capitalist carbon dioxide-spewing economy. How many local living economies have been undermined by big box stores like Malwart, whose prices are so low because there are a thousand children of landless peasants standing in line ready to take the job of the kid who wants enough time to both go to the toilet and get a drink of water on one of her scarce breaks between long monotonous shifts?

Babblers will have seen by now that I’d like this to be more than just a rag-on-China thread. The situation ain’t so simple. The official Chinese response, backed with a lot of cashola, is usually to find something wrong in the west to verbally throw back and muddy the issues. Often it’s not hard for them to do. We’re all in this together – I’m talking planetary survival – and of course China is included in a better world that is possible (if only enough people would carry out the actions, both large and small, that would engender it).

What about something like Darfur? Well, as long as people (and that includes you and me) play the ego-driven, king-of-the-heap game of empire or superpower, whatdya expect? This is a world with dwindling oil reserves, and the American military machine (accompanied by its Canadian coattail riders) has its claws on most of the world’s known reserves. The genocide in Darfur is part of a larger spiral of insecurity – you can’t expect China to sit idly by and let the west get all the stuff that makes the military machines fly. China is desperate for its own secure supply in an insecure world. In no way am I excusing the Darfur genocide, I’m just saying in a world where competition is encouraged over trust-building, in a world without true global collective security, of course you are going to get desperate and murderous resource grabs like this.

Anyways, that’s just a few thoughts I want to throw out in an opening post. This is a big, important topic. I’d love to see babblers pull out what they know/feel/perceive/think about Chinese history and culture and discuss, during the run-up to the five-ring circus, how the Chinese government can be effectively encouraged to make a better world for themselves, all their citizens and every sentient being on the planet.

[ 11 April 2008: Message edited by: gram swaraj ]

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Babblers will have seen by now that I’d like this to be more than just a rag-on-China thread.

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ahahahahahahahahahaha!

Perhaps, then, you might include some remarks about the positive aspects of Chinese development, their economy, Chinese cultural life, what role the Olympics might play in familiarizing outsiders with China in more detail, and so on. That is called balance and is to be distinguished from lecturing China on this, that, or the other.

Personally, I admire the way China handles some of the diplomatic attacks on her. The Ambassador, for example, was recently on CBC facing Peter Mansbridge. I thought the Ambassador handled himself fairly well.

Here, form your own opinion of the matter...

Mansbridge mano-a-mano with Lu Shumin, Chinese Ambassador to Canada

Edited to add: The number of contributors with Chinese names disgusted by Mansbridge's conduct is most instructive. Mind you, they should have seen Mansbridge's "interview" with the HAMAS leader.

Here's a very interesting comment from the many on the CBC site ...

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I did a little research online. If you go to tibet.com, the official website of the Tibetan exile groups, you can find the following information. That, Canada has the highest Tibetan exile population in the western world, at around 6000, more than all the rest combined. Switzerland has about 1500 and USA has about 1000. That is quite incredible to me. I could not find the reason why, at least not through public online sources, but I consider it an interesting topic to explore. Perhaps this is related to the biased Canadian government and media.

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I've noticed that leading CBC journalists, like their private sector counterparts, seem to have special venom saved for those leaders, and countries, who are subject to attack or criticism by Uncle Sam and the current Canadian government.

The Ambassador wasn't having any of Mansbridge's tactics. It was quite amusing at one point when it was clear that Mansbridge had no intention of listening to the reply to his provocative question by the Ambassador and just tried to talk over his interviewee.

Mansbridge, either by internal assimilation or by direction, has done a great job of absorbing the appropriate degree of (routinely) approved hostility towards Chinese officials.

[ 11 April 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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Posted by N. Beltov: Perhaps, then, you might include some remarks about the positive aspects of Chinese development, their economy, Chinese cultural life, what role the Olympics might play in familiarizing outsiders with China in more detail, and so on. That is called balance and is to be distinguished from lecturing China on this, that, or the other.

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I agree.

Thomas Walkom wrote a column that sums up well my conflicted feelings about using the Olympics and Tibet as a hammer to hit China's Communist Party over the head:

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But what do those favouring the Tibetan cause hope to achieve? Or, to put it simply, what is the Tibetan cause? According to the Dalai Lama, it is not independence from China. He talks instead of autonomy within China, a kind of Asian version of Canadian federalism. Indeed, no government, including Canada's, is on the record as favouring Tibetan independence.

Yet will Tibetans accept anything less? Given the region's history and the nature of the riots that precipitated this latest flare-up, the answer is not obvious.

First, consider the riots. Exactly what sparked them is unclear. But as a reporter from the Economist magazine, one of the few Western journalists able to witness the events, later wrote, they quickly turned into an ethnic rampage. Tibetan mobs attacked shopkeepers belonging to China's Han majority and set fire to their shops. Some Han Chinese were killed. For more than a day, mobs kept police and soldiers at bay.

Whatever its underlying cause, the Tibetan uprising in Lhasa certainly did not represent a victory for human rights. It was vicious and racist. The Chinese government describes it as such and in this it is right.

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Or consider this from today's Globe and Mail:

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BEIJING — A wheelchair-bound Chinese torch bearer has rocketed to national fame after fending off protesters in Paris, becoming a symbol of China's defiance of global demonstrations backing Tibet.

Jin Jing, a 27-year-old amputee and Paralympic fencer has been called the “angel in a wheelchair” and is being celebrated by television chat shows, newspapers and online musical videos after fiercely defending the Olympic torch during the Paris leg of the troubled international relay.

Protesters denouncing Chinese policy in Tibet threw themselves at Jin. Most were wrestled away by police but at least one reached her wheelchair and tried to wrench the torch away.

Ms. Jin clung tenaciously to what has become a controversial icon of the Beijing Olympic Games until her attacker was pulled off.

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However, with such a large Tibetan population - the most of any Western country says one observer that I quoted - perhaps the current politicians are looking to have their cake and eat it too, by deluding Tibetan Canadians into imagining a completely sovereign Tibet is a likely prospect.

Furthermore, didn't the dismemberment of the East Bloc and the destruction of their version of socialism begin with the support of nationalistic movements in Eastern Europe?

There are, I figure, wheels within wheels here and all sorts of things at play.

ETA: going after a disabled woman person with a disability in a wheelchair isn't very sporting, is it? Good grief. (correction thanks to Ghislaine.)

[ 11 April 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:

ETA: going after a disabled woman in a wheelchair isn't very sporting, is it? Good grief.

[ 11 April 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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I have to say - a person with disability who is my brother or my brother who is a person with a disablitiy.

Eric Margolis said:

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The world laments for the Tibetan cause, but utterly ignores the unfashionable cause of Tibet’s northern neighbors, the Uighurs. After 2001, the Bush Administration even branded Muslim Uighur resistance movements `terrorists.’

How many Tibetans are there? China has obscured census figures. When I met with the Dalai Lama, who inspired my book, `War at the Top of the World’ - which is in part about Tibet - he told me there were over seven million Tibetans. About three million are in Tibet proper, and the rest in the neighboring Chinese provinces of Sichuan, Gansu and Qinghai, to which protests have spread. The last two Chinese provinces used to form part of historical Tibet.

A primary cause of the Tibetan `intifada’ is continuing settlement by Han Chinese. After what I call `ethnic inundation,’ ethnic Chinese settlers now outnumber Tibetans. The same process of inundation occurred in Inner Mongolia, whose people are ethnically close to Tibetans.

But we should be aware that China has also uplifted Tibet from frightful poverty and medieval superstition, brought education, hospitals, electricity, roads, and ended widespread serfdom. Last year, a remarkable new high altitude rail line linked Lhasa to Beijing.

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Marxists, American and Canadian citizens and volunteers from around the world once tried building schools and hospitals in Latin America. U.S.-backed contras and mercenaries bombed and torched them in order to stop socialism at inception in the 1970's-80's. Bombing and wrecking infrastructure has been a preferred method of vicious empire in retarding progress and keeping millions of people in grinding poverty and despair.

Canadian J.J. Hilsinger has bicycled through Tibet, and in news pieces, Hilsinger has recounted the Chinese building of schools, hospitals, roads and rail lines through Tibet. He said there are new roads being built through impossibly high mountain passes at great cost and effort to bring civilization to Tibet. This is what the vicious empire objects to, really.

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Tendzin Choegyal, the Dalai Lama’s younger brother and follower, said, “Terrorist activities could achieve the biggest effect at the lowest cost."

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[ 11 April 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Ibelongtonoone: are you kidding? I can't say my disabled brother.

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That's not a complete sentence which is also sort of idiotic. Give us an example of a complete sentence if you like.

But I digress. I think Ghislaine's point was to urge the use of the term "disability" in a way that doesn't characterize generalize about the subject by the use of that term.

A disability is something I have, not something I am. Am I right, Ghislaine?

[ 11 April 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:

ETA: going after a disabled woman in a wheelchair isn't very sporting, is it? Good grief.
[ 11 April 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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The correct term is "person with a Disability".

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My brother is a disabled man who enjoys playing video games and flirting with beautiful women.

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
China has already seen the light. It is called global capitalism and they have embraced it like it was a message from heaven.

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Not quite, imo. Those known to be the torch bearers of capitalism have continually tugged and pulled on leashes imposed on them since the collapse of laissez-faire capitalism in 1929, the last great crisis of a rigid economic ideology which said that markets must rule every aspect of our lives. And western capitalists have won back important concessions made to workers in the west since from the 1930's to 1960's-70's.

According to Canadian William Krehm and advocates for economic and monetary reform in Canada and U.S., the political right has been working diligently trying to bury our Keynesian mixed market economics in both theory and practice ever since the 1970's.

And guess where a form of mixed market socialism is thriving and contributing to a bustling economy for an unprecedented in world history, 21 years in a row? China and the Asian tigers. They know they are polluting, and they know that Asia represents about half of humanity and have a right to certain world resources by virtue of their numbers.

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Posted by N. Beltov, agreed by John K: Perhaps, then, you might include some remarks about the positive aspects of Chinese development, their economy, Chinese cultural life, what role the Olympics might play in familiarizing outsiders with China in more detail, and so on. That is called balance and is to be distinguished from lecturing China on this, that, or the other.

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Sheesh.

The west will have all the time in the universe to learn about the positive aspects of China after the Olympics, as it has had time to learn about them in the millenia preceding the Olympics. Thomas Walkom obviously does not know a heck of a lot about China if he has to ask “what is the Tibetan cause?” He’s got his head stuck up his butt on this one.

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(by Thomas Walkom) Whatever its underlying cause, the Tibetan uprising in Lhasa certainly did not represent a victory for human rights. It was vicious and racist. The Chinese government describes it as such and in this it is right.

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I fully agree. The Dalai Lama has spoken out against the riots and killing of innocent Chinese, for violence only begets violence. However, what the Chinese government will never admit to, is that it too is doing violence in Tibet. The problem is that it is a slow burning violence, not easy for today’s sensation-based media to put a spotlight on. This kind of violence may not have pulled an innocent teenager off his bike and pummelled him to death, but it kills over generations, which is why it’s called “cultural genocide.” Ever heard of that? Ever heard of Canada’s residential schools for aboriginal kids?

Today with the US dollar based on so heavily on Chinese debt, and with Canada so eager for Chinese business, the western mainstream media like the TorStar, CBC, Globe and Mail (and when you read some posts on this thread, apparently babble as well) is going to be very cautious before criticizing this colossal and hypersensitive creditor and customer.

Is the west so bloody lazy and caught up in its own circuses that it has to wait for the Olympics to arrive in the “Middle Kingdom” before it attempts to learn something positive about China? If so, it is truly, incredibly, disgustingly pathetic.

I tend to think those most wimpy about criticizing China in the run-up to the Olympics are those with the most money to lose (or put more accurately, sales to miss out on), basically bigass corporations and their toady governments.

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Originally posted by gram swaraj:
Ever heard of that? Ever heard of Canada’s residential schools for aboriginal kids?

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Are the Chinese actually abducting Tibetan children and sending them to residential schools for whitification?

Are there Tibetans with no running water,

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where temperatures bottom-out below minus 40 degrees Celsius and the closest bathroom is an outhouse across the yard, through knee-deep snow. Imagine a community where a single 900-foot house is home to three generations with hammocks, couches, and cushions as make-shift beds; where tuberculosis lurks in the close-knit quarters and gas flares light up the windows, outpacing the morning sun.

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Now Tibet has become inextricably entwined with this summer's Beijing Olympics, as activists call on world leaders to boycott the Games' opening ceremonies to protest China's treatment of the region.

But what do those favouring the Tibetan cause hope to achieve? Or, to put it simply, what is the Tibetan cause? According to the Dalai Lama, it is not independence from China. He talks instead of autonomy within China, a kind of Asian version of Canadian federalism. Indeed, no government, including Canada's, is on the record as favouring Tibetan independence...

So what to do about Tibet? At one level, it is easy to support the underdog. Tibetans, as any visitor to the country knows, are an attractive, engaging people. In theory, threats of a world Olympic boycott might embarrass China into doing something to help them. But what is it that the world wants to happen?

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Not quite

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

Then we will have to disagree. I see China as the perfect expression of corporate capitalism. Free of democracy and a government committed to ensuring the interests of capital are paramount.

Do you know what happens to the unemployed in China if they are sick?

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I shudder to think of Chinese workers who've lost limbs in factory machinery and have no means of support otherwise.

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In addition to being geostrategically situated, Tibet is also rich with oil and gas, and minerals -- and this is just part of the larger superpower warfare between the US and China. See Tibet, the "great game", and the CIA.

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Christ! Aside from imperialist shitholes like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, is there any place in the world where oil is found and CIA shit disturbing campaigns are not happening?

[ 11 April 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Larry Chin said:

Christ! Aside from imperialist shitholes like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, is there any place in the world where oil is found and CIA shit disturbing campaigns are not happening?

[ 11 April 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by laine lowe:

Canada.... maybe.

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Ah! It's all very clear to us now.

The Lubicon Cree Nation Fights Genocide

[quote]The Lubicon Nation is a small aboriginal society living in north-central Alberta, Canada. They have seen their traditional lands overrun by massive oil and gas exploitation which has destroyed their traditional lands and way of life. The Lubicon people are struggling for their future. In fact a report way back in 1983 accused the federal and provincial government of committing genocide for allowing and contributing to the physical and cultural destruction of the Lubicon People[/url]

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Though I do think we have to understand where China started out from in just 1950

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

I agree. On the other hand, no one is forcing China to adopt all the worst aspects of western consumer capitalist culture without adopting any of the more progressive social and environmental programs and standards.

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I agree. And I think that along with developing an industrialized economy since just the late 1980's or so, China is also beginning to develop social unrest as a result. China's government deals with tens of thousands of protests each year. Workers are protesting at every turn, and the Chinese are struggling to develop the basics of civil society structures which we have had to fight long and hard for here in Canada and the U.S. since turn of the last century. Chinese-Canadians are travelling to China and setting up business schools and teaching basics of labour law and collective bargaining, although the CPC does not allow independent trade unions yet that I'm aware of.

China Labour Watch

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"There's a real push to get the rules up to international standards. (Beijing is) slowly exploring letting businesses get on with it -- they do it very discreetly," said Stephen Frost, a research fellow at Hong Kong's City University.

For its part, China is eager to burnish its image to attract further investment and has stepped up labor law reforms, and Beijing has approached the International Labor Organization to ratify parts of its labor code.

"Ever since China joined the World Trade Organization and emerged as a major economic power, they are very aware that they have to play by the global rules, ...

Despite constraints on collective action, China's workers also are becoming more vocal in demanding better working conditions. Last year, workers staged 74,000 protests, up 16,000 from 2003.

But Fair Labor's van Heerden sees progress, at least among foreign companies operating in China.

"If you spend a lot of time on the ground in China," he said, "you would see that the situation is moving a lot quicker than expected."

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Ever since China joined the World Trade Organization and emerged as a major economic power, they are very aware that they have to play by the global rules, ...

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Originally posted by gram swaraj:
I’d love to see babblers pull out what they know/feel/perceive/think about Chinese history and culture.

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The ice is slowly thawing and beginning to crack, and the demands of the Chinese people for democracy and freedom will be increasingly exposed.

"Allowing the Media to Speak Will not Cause the Sky to Fall in".

The Chinese media is beginning to become an outlet for public opinion.

Since the middle of the 1990s, the internet has expanded explosively in China. In only ten years, 130 million users have come online, which places China second only to the US in numbers of users. There are also 20 million individual blogs, with about a million relatively active. In theory, every blog has the potential to become a news outlet. For the traditional media, the internet has the potential to make any tiny local story into a national sensation overnight. Small, bitty stories can be seized upon by the professional media and turned into important news stories.

China's city newspapers are full of vitality. They are far in advance of the traditional, established newspapers both in terms of circulation and advertising revenue. They also report on issues far outside their own geographical region, and have become the Chinese public's main source of information. In contrast to this, the circulations of the traditional centrally-published party newspapers are falling every year, and their influence is waning: "mainstream media has become marginalised, and marginal media has become the mainstream".

After much independent reading, Chinese news workers had by the mid-1980s freed themselves from the imprisonment of traditional ideas of what news should be. We started to firmly reject hollow propaganda and strove to work by the principles of true journalism. Since then, four or five generations of young journalists have entered the profession, and these youngsters have been steeped from an early age in these globally accepted principles.

In the journalism departments of Chinese universities, the values and techniques as well as the principles of journalism are being taught. Outstanding examples of foreign journalism are held up as models, and there is a widespread attitude of professionalism. Investigative journalism aiming to reveal truths from behind the scenes has also taken off, and several pieces which compare favourably with the work of the best journalists in other countries have been produced. It can be said that Chinese journalists now share common professional values with their colleagues from across the world.

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"Nail house" is a term unique to mainland China. At a time when many urban homes are being demolished and residents relocated, the term has sprung up to describe houses in which the owners refuse to budge. Like a nail sticking up through a plank of wood, they are difficult to remove. In the past, the Chinese news media have always used the term in a derogatory fashion to condemn those who refused to act "in the public interest".

Now, however, the owners of one nail house in the southwestern Chinese city of Chongqing have become heroes to the public and news media. Defending their property rights, Yang Wu and his family held out against developers' bulldozers for three years - until they got what they wanted.

On 26 February 2007, a Chinese blogger posted a photograph of the Yangs' building, terming it "the coolest nail house ever". The picture spread quickly around the internet.

Almost all of the influential news media in China were stirred into action. Commentators wrote columns, legal experts debated, and websites hosted running updates of events, attracting millions of viewer hits. Public opinion almost unanimously supported the Yangs in their attempts to uphold their legal rights.

On 21 March, Yang Wu - an ex-kung fu champion - climbed up to his home and put a Chinese flag on the roof, along with a banner reading: "Citizens' private-property rights must not be violated!!!" Wu Ping, his fashionably dressed wife, talked almost non-stop to domestic and foreign news media.

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[ 11 April 2008: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

Global rules? They are playing by global rules. Who created the global rules? Exxon, GM, Dole, ...

I would be more impressed if they were invoking real standards.

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No, Exxon-Imperial dictates Canada's national energy policy while GM struggles to compete with Japan, Germany and Korea instead of just Toyota, VW, and Kia as should be happening without dated ideology standing in the way.

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Canadian J.J. Hilsinger has bicycled through Tibet, and in news pieces, Hilsinger has recounted the Chinese building of schools, hospitals, roads and rail lines through Tibet. He said there are new roads being built through impossibly high mountain passes at great cost and effort to bring civilization to Tibet. This is what the vicious empire objects to, really.

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Originally posted by Doug:

Which is just about what Cecil Rhodes would have had to say about Africa or for that matter, George W. Bush about Iraq. The benefits of imperialism to its subjects do not legitimize imperialism.

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But African countries were under control by brutal colonizers: Britain, Holland, Italy, France etc. And Iraq really did suffer massive loss of life over a million people from 1991 sanctions led by the current vicious empire through shock and awe over Baghdad to the current brutal U.S. military occupation.

Here is google's definition for imperialism:

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The practice of one country extending its control over the territory, political system, or economic life of another country

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Tibet is a territory of China for several centuries longer than Langley and Washington have existed. And according to American Michael Parenti's research, the first Dalai Lama was installed by a Chinese army in the 13th century. Columbus hadn't even set sail for the new world yet.

eta: And technically even though China appears to be seeking control of Sudan's oil exports to the chagrin of an oil-thirsty vicious empire in the west, they are extending aid and development loans to Sudan and Angola without the same oppressive IMF stipulations for giving up sovereign powers of central banking and turning the country over to global real estate speculation, or iow's, neocolonialism. \

We have absentee corporate landlords controlling dozens of important sectors of the Canadian economy today as a result of unfair and unfree trade deals with Warshington.

[ 11 April 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Are the Chinese actually abducting Tibetan children and sending them to residential schools for whitification?

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Come on, Fidel, you're sharper than that. I brought up the residential schools as an example of cultural genocide, I wasn't trying to say the exact same tactics were being employed in Tibet. And of course they're not being whitified, they're being sinocized.

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Do you know what happens to the unemployed in China if they are sick?

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In addition to being geostrategically situated, Tibet is also rich with oil and gas, and minerals

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It is also the source of meltwater that feeds river basins of a huge chunk of humanity. In his documentary, Gore said 40% of the world's population depends on rivers that get more than half of their water from Himalayan glaciers.

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Originally posted by gram swaraj:

Come on, Fidel, you're sharper than that. I brought up the residential schools as an example of cultural genocide, I wasn't trying to say the exact same tactics were being employed in Tibet. And of course they're not being whitified, they're being sinocized.

In response to other comments above, does building railroads, schools and hospitals give an occupying power the license to suppress the language, religion and traditions of a place?

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Notwithstanding that he started his political career as theocratic despot, and took 60 tonnes of treasure with him into exile, the Dalai Lama’s saintly image has seen him win the Nobel Peace Prize. Not surprisingly, Western politicians are as keen as rock gods and movie stars to be seen meeting him.

Western support?

However, while verbal support for Tibet is sometimes used by the Western politicians to strengthen their position with respect to China, it would be a mistake to assume that, as was the case during he Cold War, Western imperialist powers are seeking Tibetan independence.

Not only is China embracing capitalism, it has become essential to the globalised economy. The booming manufacturing industry of eastern China is either directly or indirectly controlled by Western capital.

While many leftists and anti-imperialists see self-determination for Tibet as a tool to open up Tibet to the imperialist global market, this is ignoring the fact that the imperialist global market is reaching Tibet through the Beijing-Lhasa railway.

The West's desire not to see China dismembered is reflected by the Dalai Lama, who supports autonomy, as opposed to independence, and makes moral strictures against rioting. This is creating a divergence between his government-in-exile and Tibetans inside the country.

For its part, the Chinese government is using the similarity between the self-determination struggles in Tibet and Xinjiang to tar the Tibetans with the terrorism brush. On April 1, public security ministry spokesperson Wu Heping accused the Dalai Lama of preparing squads of suicide bombers to attack the Olympics.

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Good article. Also discusses the plight of the Uighurs.

[ 17 April 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

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Not only is China embracing capitalism, it has become essential to the globalised economy. The booming manufacturing industry of eastern China is either directly or indirectly controlled by Western capital.

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But there is a subtle difference our own stoogeocrats in Canada might be a little embarassed over. All foreign corporations doing business in China are expected to cede either controlling interest or large minority share in their Chinese enterprises to the CPC.

And industries considered key to China's economy, like Steel and agriculture, will not be majority foreign-owned or controlled.

Banks in China that are more than 29% foreign-owned and controlled forfeit all money and credit creation privileges.

Canada's economy, otoh, is majority foreign-owned and controlled in over three dozen key sectors. Canada's manufacturing sector is more than 50% foreign-owned and controlled, more than any other developed nation by comparison. Canada is a NeoLiberal experiment in capitalism for absentee corporate landlords and resource colonialism.

And contrary to the rules of NeoLiberal capitalism in the west, the CPC uses the full range of Keynesian levers to control inflation and value of its currency instead of floating the Yuan on world money markets. Floating national currencies places enormous control of national economic policies like Canada's in the hands of international capitalists and money speculators.

There is no CIA-MI6 campaign to free Alberta or Quebec, and it's because Canada is a fully pliant colony of American imperialism and victim of marauding capital. Canada is one large Northern Puerto Rico. We're just America's gas tank, a juvenile country delinquent on Kyoto obligations to curb America of its voracious appetite for cheap energy resources in the Northern colony.

eta:Canada's lost a lot of jobs to China. We don't make TV's, telephones, washing machines, clothes dryers, chainsaws, or very many finished wood products anymore. We used to be told that Canadians don't want to do labour-intensive work anymore. Today our stoogeocrats don't say much of anything anymore, because the knowledge-based economy Brian Baloney said would create Jobs! Jobs! Jobs! and which never was, is going away.

Forget about capitalism. We did in the 1930's. What we have today is a global struggle for imperialism. And the real issue for our imperialists is that China and Asian barbarians are no longer divided. Hands off Tibet. It's been part of China centuries longer than Canada has been a repository of natural resource wealth for imperialists to raid at will.

The western world banking system has been collapsing for years and on the verge of total failure. Brits and vicious empire are embroiled in a full court press to create chaos and mayhem around the world, and it's because they know that NeoLiberal capitalism is finished.

Von Hayek and Friedman are dead a long time, but Keynes is alive and perhaps not so well in China and several other Asian countries. Keynes is demonstrating through China that mixed market economy with lots of government intervention works while laissez-faire in the west is a recipe for disaster, once again. Self-regulating markets were a colossal lie, and it's people who have the ability to decide our own future(appalling levels of pollution and human rights issues in China aside) China is showing the west that we can harness levers of the economy to achieve whatever we want to.

[ 17 April 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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I have been watching with growing amazement and concern the assaults on the bizarrely quasi-religious Olympic Torch as it has staggered through London, Paris and San Francisco, as well as the self-righteous pronouncements by certain European "leaders" (and even by the European Parliament, the UN Secretary-General and John McCain) that they will not be attending the opening ceremony of the Olympics or are seriously considering not attending or urging others not to attend unless China bows to their "human rights" demands.

Have they even been invited? Who needs them? Why, aside from the obvious intention to to give offense, should the Chinese care?

I should make clear from the start that I am profoundly sympathetic to Tibet and Tibetans….

Having said that, the current anti-Chinese frenzy in the West, pursued in the guise of pro-Tibetan (and, to a lesser extent, pro-Darfuri) human rights activism, and the Western media's coverage of it reek of hypocrisy….

Can anyone seriously argue that Chinese treatment of Tibetans, who have not been subject to either genocide or ethnic cleansing and of whom the vast majority continue to live on their ancestral lands, compares unfavorably with the treatment accorded to the Native Americans by the European settlers of North America or the treatment accorded (and continuing to be accorded) to the indigenous Palestinians by the Zionist settlers of Palestine? Can anyone seriously argue that it is even in the same league of evil and injustice?

With more than 50 recognized ethnic minorities comprising roughly six percent of China's immense population, Chinese government policy has always aimed at cultural integration of all Chinese citizens rather than at multiculturalism. Inevitably, some peoples are deeply attached to their own distinct cultures and do not wish to be integrated into another one. If Chinese treatment of certain ethnic minorities justly merits criticism, most serious observers would argue that repressive measures against the Uighurs of Xinjiang have been more severe than repressive measures against Tibetans.

However, although there are many more Uighurs than Tibetans, one hears very little about Uighurs in the West. They are Muslims. Uighur nationalist movements are on America's list of "terrorst" groups, and four Uighurs swept up in Afghanistan were incarcerated at Guantanamo for years, even long after being exonerated as potential threats to America, before finally being dumped in Albania, because no other country would provide them asylum.

Furthermore, how reasonable is it to hold China responsible for the human suffering resulting from multiple separatist insurgencies and governmental counterinsurgency measures in the Darfur region of Sudan (because China invests in Sudan's oil industry?) while not holding America and its Western collaborators responsible for the far worse human suffering resulting from America's invasions and occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq and America's unconditional financial and diplomatic support for Israel's occupation of Palestine?

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Get with the trend, man. It's Tibet, Tibet, Tibet!

(Oh, wait, a minute, that's not true, there's others...)

It would've caught on if only Chuck Barris had started producing The FALUN GONG SHOW!

[ 18 April 2008: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

quote:

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Falun Gong? That's so last year!

Get with the trend, man. It's Tibet, Tibet, Tibet!

BTW, what's your particular fondness for that homophobic mind-control cult?

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Originally posted by Papal Bull:

God bless China. Fidel is right. Authoritarian capitalism is wicked rad! It is what the left should totally be all about!

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I've never once said that anyone should duplicate what China is doing. I'm more interested in the truth than sologaneering and snide remarks.

edit:: all governments should face scrutiny from all people of the world. Plain and damned simple. Scrutiny and criticism by the populace is something quite different than CIA meddling and media interpretations. Are they not?

[ 18 April 2008: Message edited by: Papal Bull ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Papal Bull:
Scrutiny and criticism by the populace is something quite different than CIA meddling and media interpretations. Are they not?

[ 18 April 2008: Message edited by: Papal Bull ]

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They are. And to be fair to the Americans, they also have a large population. The part of their economies reliant on capitalism in both China and the USA will create vast inequalities and social injustices. And as we've seen since dissolution of the USSR, human evils which were repressed and held in check by hardliners are now emerging, but not nearly in the same unfettered way in which Russian gangster capitalism did in the 1990's. Some of those people executed in China, as is the case in the U.S., will be innocent of charges and put to death by travesties of justice - crime statistics say 1 in 7 on American death row will be innocent. This is a problem, but I think one of the differences between China's state executions and U.S. state executions is the number of politicians executed for corruption in China. Apparently we are without corrupt politicians in the west - and our economic and political system is totally transparent - something I was entirely surprised to know? ... I believe some of our more Liberal opinions will condemn capital punishment, and in the next breath, suggest that the system just needs tweaking a bit here and there. The far left isn't as naive, however. And the Chinese and Asians in general know all about corruption. Their's are very old cultures. We in the west will tend to hear more about common people executed in China, teh travesties of Chinese justice, than we will know of corrupt politicians and business leaders put to death. Same with Singapore. Suffice to say, I believe that the left and centrists in the west argue against capital punishment for very similar and yet quite different reasons at the same time.

[ 18 April 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by Joel_Goldenberg:

So for that, if it's the case, this merits torture and imprisonment?

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No. But it does mean we can assume nothing positive whatsoever would come from Falun Gong taking over the Chinese government as they are clearly trying to do.

They'd be even more repressive.

Nobody should be tortured, but Falun Gong isn't a group we should feel any solidarity with.

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On top of all this is the brewing call for world leaders and corporate chieftains to boycott the opening ceremonies - Hillary Clinton called on President George W. Bush to do so, and Barack Obama seemed to agree. All of these rumbles lead to a couple of conclusions.

First, if members of the International Olympic Committee wanted to avoid controversy, they should have just awarded the Games to Toronto (the distant runner-up for 2008).

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"China is the worst human rights abuser in the world and it's not just against Tibetans, it's against their own people, their own population," Anders told CBC Radio morning show The Calgary Eyeopener on Thursday. ...

He said the Beijing Games are "absolutely 100 per cent a propaganda exercise" that also "has similarities" with the 1936 Summer Games held in Berlin at the height of the Nazi dictatorship.

"The fact that they've got torch goons who are going from country to country intimidating athletes as they run is an example of that," he said, in reference to tracksuit-clad Chinese security officials who have flanked the Olympic torch during its five-continent tour. ...

Anders also was the lone MP to oppose Parliament's move in 2001 to grant former South African president Nelson Mandela an honorary Canadian citizenship. Anders, then a member of the Canadian Alliance, called the anti-apartheid activist and Nobel Peace Prize winner a former "Communist and a terrorist."

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Originally posted by unionist:
Brought to you by Canada's New Government - fighting communism in China, South Africa, and right here at home.

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Anders may be an asshole-deluxe, but he's our asshole-deluxe!

[ 18 April 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by Ken Burch:
But it does mean we can assume nothing positive whatsoever would come from Falun Gong taking over the Chinese government as they are clearly trying to do.

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Tibet was freed 50 years ago.

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Did I call you "sharp"? Maybe you are, but I didn't realize until now how blindly ideological you are. A dangerous combination, makes you fit to be a dictator. Or maybe I should say, the number one comrade in a dictatorship of the proletariat.

I suppose you think that suppression of religious freedom in Tibet is all part of keeping up the fight against the counter-revolutionaries?

[ 22 April 2008: Message edited by: gram swaraj ]

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Seeking personal emotional satisfaction or domestic political advantage by gratuitously sticking pins in the Chinese dragon is unlikely to prove a wise course of action.

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I agree with this statement, but at the same time, this is not a simple issue. Not everyone critical of China is doing it for “personal emotional satisfaction or domestic political advantage.” What, does Whitbeck think these are the only two possible reasons to be critical of China?

He also asks:

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Can anyone seriously argue that Chinese treatment of Tibetans, who have not been subject to either genocide or ethnic cleansing and of whom the vast majority continue to live on their ancestral lands, compares unfavorably with the treatment accorded to the Native Americans by the European settlers of North America or the treatment accorded (and continuing to be accorded) to the indigenous Palestinians by the Zionist settlers of Palestine? Can anyone seriously argue that it is even in the same league of evil and injustice?

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But the problem with the "assimilationist" view of Chinese history is that it is largely founded on the conceit of those who have mythologized Chinese culture, as the basis of a National Chinese State, an entity that is based in a civilization that is "5000 years old", or so it is said. The reality is that foundation of the Chinese state a s single contiguous adminstrative unit does not really happen until they are conquered by the Mongols in the 13th Century, up until that time they are really 4 Kingdoms, add in the Manchu and you have 5.

The reality is that China is a composition of the cultures and people who make it up, and they have not "assimilated" other peoples so much but melded with them. The Mongols' basicly founded China as a state (not something that fits very well with the modern ideological construct as posed by the Chinese mythology by the powers that be at this time) and in fact Budhism became for a while the state religion of China after the Tibetan conquest of China, and again when conquered by the Mongols.

It is not like there is this preconcieved malign Chinese plot to trick alien cultures into invading them so that they can weaken and assimilate them using ancient techniques they learned with great patience.

[ 22 April 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by gram swaraj:
I suppose you think that suppression of religious freedom in Tibet is all part of keeping up the fight against the counter-revolutionaries?

[ 22 April 2008: Message edited by: gram swaraj ]

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So what we now call the Chinese state has evolved over history into what we have today - whatever it may be. Does that justify imprisoning Buddhist monks and torturing them? Could the Chinese state evolve in a direction where human rights are more genuinely realized, not only in Tibet but throughout the "People's Republic"?

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I'm not high on any religion where the priests are above working for a living. Sounds like theocratic feudalism to me.

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He testified that under serfdom he was subjected to incessant toil, hunger, and cold. After his third failed escape, he was merciless beaten by the landlord’s men until blood poured from his nose and mouth. They then poured alcohol and caustic soda on his wounds to increase the pain, he claimed.19

The serfs were taxed upon getting married, taxed for the birth of each child and for every death in the family. They were taxed for planting a tree in their yard and for keeping animals. They were taxed for religious festivals and for public dancing and drumming, for being sent to prison and upon being released.

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It's no wonder imperial Britain, the U.S.A. and their promising stooge in China, Chiang Kai-shek and his murderous band of thugs were down with old Tibet. Count me out, Gram. I can't support this. Not anytime soon as in never.

[ 22 April 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Michael Parenti says one 24 year-old Tibetan welcomed Chinese intervention as "liberation." It's no wonder imperial Britain, the U.S.A. and their promising stooge in China, Chiang Kai-shek and his murderous band of thugs were down with old Tibet. Count me out, Gram. I can't support this. Not anytime soon as in never.

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I wonder about the relationship of that "one" Tibetan to the Chinese authorities. In any case, rest assured, I think less than one in a hundred million people - including me, other Western supporters, Tibetan rioters, monks or nuns - are advocating a return to pre-invasion feudalism. A good student of Buddhism, the Dalai Lama says to think of your “enemy” as your greatest teacher, and he recognizes that Tibet was not a place of great freedom before 1959, either. He has mused also that maybe the Dalai Lama system should be abolished (sorry no reference, I can’t find where I read that, a while ago).

So I think it’s safe to say almost no one is calling for human rights in Tibet so that the old feudal system can be re-installed. They are opposing things like this:

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The worst torture I endured was when I was handcuffed with my arms around a hot chimney and left there for a whole day without food or water. The scorching heat of the chimney resulted in blisters all over my body. There was water running from the blisters and my wounds were stinging painfully from heavy perspiration. At night, when the prison guards finally came to release my cuffs, my boots were completely filled with water from the sweat of my body,” recalls Lobsang Dhargay, a monk from Ragya Monastery, who had been arrested for distributing leaflets reading “Free Tibet” and “Chinese quit Tibet”. He was detained in Golok Prison for a year without trial. With every interrogation he was beaten with sticks, kicked, punched and shocked all over his body with an electric cattle prod. He escaped Tibet on April 2, 1997 and reached Dharamsala, India on April 28, 1997.

Hanging prisoners from the ceiling with a fire burning underneath, is a method commonly described by former prisoners. Often chilli is thrown on the fire, producing a thick smoke and enhancing the burns. “When they sprayed chilli powder on the fire it provoked a terrible burning sensation on my whole body and each time I was unable to open my eyes for several hours,” says Jampel Tsering, a monk from Gaden Monastery. He served a five-year prison term in Drapchi Prison for leading a demonstration in Lhasa in 1989.

Ropes are also used as during interrogation. The rope is first laid across the front of the prisoner’s chest and then spiralled down each arm. The wrists are then tied together and pulled backwards over the person’s head. Next the rope-ends are drawn under either armpit, threaded through the loop on the chest and pulled abruptly down. Immediately the shoulders turn in their sockets, wrenching the prisoner into a grisly contortion although managing not to strangle him or her.

This was just one of the many of torture techniques survived by Palden Gyatso, who spent 33 years in prison on political grounds: “...first they tied our neck, then our hands were tied up to our neck. They fastened the ropes as if they were fastening a bag, using the wall as a support. We were tied during interrogation sessions and then hanged from the ceiling. When we did not give satisfactory answers, we were stripped naked and hanged again from the ceiling and the torturers would pour hot water on us.”

Another method described by Palden Gyatso, who was released in 1992 and now lives in Dharamsala, is the self-tightening hand-cuff or the ‘yellow cuff’: “The yellow cuff is specially designed and made in China. There are teeth protruding from the inner circle of the cuff and when the victim moves, the inner teeth automatically protrude from inside and cut into the wrist.” Another type of cuff could be fastened, according to Palden, “so that the wrist would develop blisters all around and these would later become inflamed and turn into burns.” These cuffs are still in common use in prisons.

Lhundup Ganden (layname: Ganden Tashi), 30, a monk from Gaden Monastery in Lhasa, was originally imprisoned for three years in 1989 and released in 1992 when he became paralysed as a result of extreme torture. He was one of the participants in the demonstration on March 5, 1988, demanding human rights in Tibet and the release of political prisoner, Yulo Dawa Tsering. After the police threw tear gas at the demonstrators, Lhundup Ganden was arrested and taken to a room with seven other monks. Chinese police officers and soldiers made the monks strip and then beat them with sticks, rifle butts, rubber bats and electric batons, while throwing water on them to increase the shock: “When I came back to my senses, I realised that I was in Gutsa Detention Centre with my hands tied. The worst torture was when they would make me strip and beat me with electric batons all over my body. Afterwards I was unable to sleep on my back and buttocks. My skin swelled, turned green and blue and there were cuts also. Electric batons and wire are used all the time: they tie the wire around the wrist and the shock is extremely painful. I was hanged a lot in Gutsa for 10 to 15 minutes each time. There are lots of ways people are hanged. They tie the prisoner’s hands, hang him from the ceiling and beat him.”

While in Gutsa Detention Centre, Lhundup, and two other Tibetan youths and a woman were all stripped while police officials surrounded them in the interrogation room. The four were beaten with electric batons and Lhundup was hit on his head with a rifle butt. When he was later called again to be interrogated, he was unable to walk and had to be carried by other prison mates. Lhundup sustained serious head injuries from torture used during interrogations and he continues to suffer migraine headaches today, so many years since the damage was done and five years since his release.

One of Lhundup’s worst memories from Gutsa was the day a truck full of Tibetan political prisoners arrived at the prison: “Everyone had been so badly tortured that they were unable to stand on their feet, so the Chinese officials just threw them from the truck on the ground. The PSB kept throwing the prisoners one on top of the other. Some of them were able to move and tried to crawl out of the pile. The corridor of the detention centre was full of blood. Three prisoners were found dead in the pile and were taken back in the same truck.”

Lhundup saw several inmates in Gutsa die from torture and starvation. Following this period, while he was in Outridu Prison, he heard of three suicides. In Outridu he was kept in solitary confinement with no contact whatsoever with the outside world for 34 days: the cell had a metal floor and no bed, his hands and feet were cuffed, he was provided with two meagre meals a day, and he was not even allowed to go out to the toilet.

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source: go down to "Tales of Terror". It's not hard to find more.

It seems Tibet is not quite liberated of medieval practices, eh?

[ 23 April 2008: Message edited by: gram swaraj ]

By Chi-Wen Yao

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Prior to the Chinese takeover in 1959, Tibet was a theocratic state based on feudalism. There was a social caste system where people were born into serfdom. The people born into serfdom, then, were taught the Buddhist notion of karma and reincarnation; that they were suffering from the sins of the past life. However, there was a way out of the caste system. One third of the boys in Tibet were forcibly taken by the monastery and could live in the life of harmony, along with a chance for molestation and rape.

The lamas and the feudal landlords, who owned the lands of Tibet, did not represent the majority of the population, who were illiterate and poor. The Drepung Monastery was one of the biggest landowners in the world, and it lent money to the peasants at an interest rate of 20 percent to 50 percent. In theocratic feudal Tibet, torturing methods such as eye gouging and amputation were common as punishments for thieves and runaway slaves. This is quite the contrary of the peaceful teachings of Buddhism, isn't it?

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I think it unlikely that the Communist Party of China will ever be more sensitive to international public opinion than it is in these precious pre-Olympic months.

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I agree and that's why the central government has been consistent with its policy of repressing real or perceived threats to its authority. However, generally the people of China have also been sensitive to international commentary and have taken a defensive position which has placed it shoulder to shoulder with the central authorities. For most Chinese, the Olympics are a recognition of its new status in the international community and an acceptance into that community, so the claim that granting the Olympics to China was an injustice is considered an insult to the Chinese nation. A foreigner challenging the CCP will likely receive the same response -- the challenge is interpreted as an affront to Chinese pride, independence and nationhood, not the central government.

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Anyways, that’s just a few thoughts I want to throw out in an opening post. This is a big, important topic. I’d love to see babblers pull out what they know/feel/perceive/think about Chinese history and culture and discuss, during the run-up to the five-ring circus, how the Chinese government can be effectively encouraged to make a better world for themselves, all their citizens and every sentient being on the planet.

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Originally posted by Liang Jiajie:

Chinese and overseas Chinese who follow current affairs are aware of the challenges China must overcome. Considering what I wrote above, the spirit of the above quote would be considered arrogant by many Chinese and would be unproductive.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Liang Jiajie:
For most Chinese, the Olympics are a recognition of its new status in the international community and an acceptance into that community, so the claim that granting the Olympics to China was an injustice is considered an insult to the Chinese nation.

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What a strange situation for China. Western leaders courted China's officials throughout the cold war, trying to convince China's leaders to integrate their economy with the west's. Same was true for Russia.

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Originally posted by unionist:

Thank you for your thoughtful post - which I have been missing - and welcome back to babble!

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Thank you! I've been reading many of the topics I missed and will try to respond to some.

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Originally posted by Fidel:

What a strange situation for China. Western leaders courted China's officials throughout the cold war, trying to convince China's leaders to integrate their economy with the west's. Same was true for Russia.

It's just that now our leaders have been trying to bury any and all memories of our own Keynesian ecomomic history of post-WWII to 1970's. It's kind of like the purges and cleansing of all things Mao in China. Meanwhile, China is a bastion of Keynesian interventionism. So is India to a lesser extent. And I don't think our nouveau Liberal capitalists here in the west appreciate that very much at all.

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China and the West shouldn't have difficulty in their courtship. China (and other Asian states) want to be like the West. The governments and peoples want the consumerism, the disposable income, the financial markets, the popular culture, the social services, the nice cities and suburbs, and the good militaries. This is what China and its neighbours want to "rise" to and it shouldn't be perceived as a threat. To achieve this, China and the rest of Asia need the West, and for the West to maintain its affluence, it needs Asian markets and the international trade they create. In this sense, China has seen the light and wants to be in it.

But more interesting is the economic revolution may be creating the foundation for political reform in China. The economic revolution has brought millions of Chinese out of poverty thus creating stability by giving the central government legitimacy and loyalty from most Chinese who will remain content with their good livelihoods. The central government is not giving them reasons to be disatisfied and it remains at most a benign presence in the lives of ordinary Chinese. The social stability established, political reform can be achieved smoothly. The opposite happened in eastern Europe. The political reform came quickly but the economic reforms were not so successful and the people are still disatisfied.

An example of how "satisfied" Chinese are about the general status of their country is the confrontation between pro-Tibet and pro-China groups. At this point, the public defenders of China have been overseas Chinese. This is significant because those Chinese live, work, and study in the West so they have experienced democratic forms of government, yet they know their action is indirectly supporting an authoritarian government. It also means that China is bigger than the CCP -- China belongs to Chinese, not the CCP.

quote:

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Originally posted by Liang Jiajie:

China and the West shouldn't have difficulty in their courtship. China (and other Asian states) want to be like the West.

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But there are problems with the courtship. China has our western imperialists in a lather over Africa, South America, and global resources

IMF in a tiz 2007

China and the Congo BBC video

3Com delays buyout vote again Struggles to satisfy US security concerns

China's giant oil company not happy with Canadian stoogeocrats 2007

China's Expanding Presence in "the backyard"

'My brother enjoys playing video games and flirting with beautiful women.'
Rather than

[/QB][/QUOTE]

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My brother is a disabled man who enjoys playing video games and flirting with beautiful women.

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Originally posted by Fidel:

But there are problems with the courtship. China has our western imperialists in a lather over Africa, South America, and global resources

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Yes, there is a problem, but I think at this early stage in the re-ordering of international relations, it's a problem of perception and it's a problem that can be overcome. The West (its governments and many of its peoples) perceives China as a commercial threat which wants to destabilize Western economic dominance and become the world's only superpower. China certainly wants to dominate East Asia, but it doesn't want and can't become the world's only superpower. It's too expensive and dangerous. Also, generally Westerners must accept that perhaps in the future, Asia will become an equally influential partner (rather than an adversary).

quote:

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Originally posted by Liang Jiajie:

Yes, there is a problem, but I think at this early stage in the re-ordering of international relations, it's a problem of perception and it's a problem that can be overcome.

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I certainly hope so. Because in approximately 1980, the U.S.A. was the world's richest economy with the most expensive and most menacing military in the world bar none.

Today, the U.S. is the most menacing military threat bar none. Asia and Pacific Rim countries are now the largest generators of capital in the world. U.S. hawks perceive everything as a threat to U.S. interests. U.S. investment is no longer the dominant capital in South America, referred to by various ultra right-wing nationalists in the U.S. as "the backyard."

Imagine how paranoid U.S. imperialists are today with realizing that the [i]"barbarians"[/b] are no long divided ie. China, India, Russia, Japan, the Koreas and Taiwan increasing trade and cooperation with one another. And rest assured, these right-wing administrations are not immoral racists - they are amoral powermongering colder warriors who think nothing of waging a ten year-long medieval siege on a desert nation before perpetrating blitzkrieg in this very decade.

You're absolutely correct. It's not a unipolar world anymore. And that's a kind of personal terror for political hawks in the U.S. and for their imperialist allies. They saw dissolution of the USSR as a window of opportunity to affect regime changes for a list of countries. And using the one most influential tool they've had left, the military, they are running out of time and money in Iraq and Afghanistan. I think Asian countries may well be in a bargaining position to convince U.S. hawks to close down some of the 730 cold war era U.S. military bases around the world, and to decommission some number of nuclear weapons stationed in countries and seven seas surrounding China and Russia. There was never any legitimate purpose for nuclear weapons.

eta: I think the only way for cold warriors in the west to continue financing the "great game" will be to revert to Keynesian banking and government finance. They will bankrupt their own country with upside-down socialism in the mean time in order to prop up a failing ideology to the very last.

[ 30 April 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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The militarization of the South China Sea and of the Taiwan Straits is also an integral part of this strategy which, in the post 9/11 era, consists in deploying "on several fronts".

Moreover, China remains in the post-Cold War era a target for a first strike nuclear attack by the US.

In the 2002 Nuclear Posture Review (NPR), China and Russia are identified along with a list of "rogue States" as potential targets for a pre-emptive nuclear attack by the US. China is listed in the NPR as "a country that could be involved in an immediate or potential contingency". Specifically, the Nuclear Posture Review lists a military confrontation over the status of Taiwan as one of the scenarios that could lead Washington to use nuclear weapons against China.

China has been encircled: The U.S. military is present in the South China Sea and the Taiwan Straights, in the Korean Peninsula and the Sea of Japan, as well as in the heartland of Central Asia and on the Western border of China’s Xinjiang-Uigur autonomous region. China has been encircled: The U.S. military is present in the South China Sea and the Taiwan Straights, in the Korean Peninsula and the Sea of Japan, as well as in the heartland of Central Asia and on the Western border of China’s Xinjiang-Uigur autonomous region. Moreover, as part of the encirclement of China, "Japan has gradually been amalgamating and harmonizing its military policies with those of the U.S. and NATO." (See Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya, Global Military Alliance: Encircling Russia and China, Global Research, 10 May 2007)

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Fidel, how much do you know about the substance of Buddhism? Not the temporal, materialist perversions of it, but the core spiritual messages?

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I agree with many, but not all, of the things Fidel and Liang Jiajie have posted. This is not a simple issue. Any westerner who criticizes the Chinese government risks being labeled “arrogant.” China has a history of being torn apart at the seams, and it’s understandable that its government may view a western movement for a more democratic China as a Trojan Horse. Surely there are westerners hoping for a weaker China where multinationals can rule. But it’s a glaring fallacy to think all western critics of China’s human rights record want this.

[ 02 May 2008: Message edited by: gram swaraj ]

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Human Rights Watch China: Restrictions on Lawyers Fuel Unrest(146-page report)

(New York, April 29, 2008) – Chinese lawyers who take cases seen by the government as politically sensitive or potentially embarrassing face severe abuses ranging from harassment to disbarment and physical assaults, Human Rights Watch said in a new report released today.

In April 2008, for example, a group of lawyers who had publicly offered to defend Tibetan protesters were warned by the Chinese Ministry of Justice not to get involved or they would face disciplinary sanctions and jeopardize the renewal of their professional licenses for the year...

"Lawyers who challenge official abuses in China systematically suffer retaliation," said Sophie Richardson, Asia advocacy director at Human Rights Watch. "But if people can't take their grievances to the courts, they will take them to the streets."

The 142-page report, "Walking on Thin Ice: Control, Intimidation and Harassment of Lawyers in China," details consistent patterns of abuses against legal practitioners. These include intimidation, harassment, suspension of professional licenses, disbarment, physical assaults, and even arrest and prosecution when lawyers take politically sensitive cases, seek redress for abuses of power and wrongdoings by party or government agents, or challenge local power-holders.

Human Rights Watch also said that restrictions on lawyers risk exacerbating widespread social unrest as citizens are denied meaningful legal avenues to solve disputes. China has witnessed an explosion of social unrest in recent years, fueled by rising economic disparities and endemic abuses by unaccountable local officials. Issues such as illegal land seizures, forced evictions, relocations from dam areas, environmental pollution, unpaid social entitlements and administrative malfeasance have become burning social issues...

"It is inherently unjust for government officials to have the power to decide which cases lawyers can pursue," said Richardson. "It negates the rule of law and makes justice fundamentally unattainable."

...Examples include:
- Li Heping, a prominent Beijing lawyer was kidnapped, detained, and beaten by a group of unidentified men on September 29, 2007. His captors released him after six hours, having threatened him with further violence if he did not leave Beijing;
- Zhang Jianzhong, a prominent lawyer and advocate who served as the head of the committee on lawyers' rights of the Beijing Lawyers Association, was arrested in May 2002 and sentenced to two years in prison in December of the same year under article 307 for allegedly having assisted with fabrication of evidence.

The new Human Rights Watch report draws on extensive interviews with Chinese lawyers, activists and legal experts, and argues that the incidence of violence, detention or prosecutions of lawyers is far more widespread than the number of publicly reported cases indicates.

"Abuses of lawyers compound human rights violations, undermine citizens' rights, and exacerbate social unrest," said Richardson. "Without due process and genuine defense rights, law remains little more than an instrument of state repression."
...
“You can beat me up, but please do not beat me up in court; please do not beat me up as I carry out my professional duties.” —Open letter by lawyer Wang Lin after he was assaulted by a court official in Tianjin, April 2007

“When you go to a small town and the police are following you all the time, what kind of testimonies can you get?” —L. W., a lawyer from Beijing, November 2007

“For the past few years, the working environment of the legal profession has become more dangerous day by day.” —Text of an open letter by 53 lawyers, December 2006

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Human Rights Watch Asia = arrogant?

[ 02 May 2008: Message edited by: gram swaraj ]

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Fidel, how much do you know about the substance of Buddhism? Not the temporal, materialist perversions of it, but the core spiritual messages?

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Originally posted by gram swaraj:
Human Rights Watch Asia = arrogant?

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I dunno, maybe they're worse than arrogant?

Hijacking Human Rights

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In an instructive article dealing with human rights abuses in China, Ralph McGehee (1999) draws attention to the links between HRW's Asia branch and the imperial ambitions of the NED [National Endowment for Democracy] and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). He notes that: "US corporate-owned media, in league with government agencies, orchestrate media coverage to demonize states in conflict with corporate plans". He observed that in China's case many of those stories "seem to be generated by the 'privately funded' US-based Human Rights Watch/Asia" and that this:

"...reveal[s] the current US policy of using (rightly or wrongly) the theme of human rights violations to alter or overthrow non-US-favored governments. In those countries emerging from the once Soviet Bloc that is forming new governmental systems; or where emerging or Third World governments resist US influence or control, the US uses 'human rights violations,' as an excuse for political action operations. 'Human Rights' replaces 'Communist Conspiracy' as the justification for overthrowing governments."

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Originally posted by It's Me D:
Since you've asked this question twice could you explain its relevance to the discussion? I know you were asking Fidel but hopefully you wouldn't mind elaborating to me.

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Freedom of religion in Tibet.

eta: Which is not to necessarily deny freedom from religion in Tibet, either.

[ 02 May 2008: Message edited by: gram swaraj ]

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Originally posted by unionist:
Of course, they may just be genuine neutral kind-hearted people that call violations wherever and however they see them. Still, you might want to read the whole above-linked article to get a more balanced picture of HRW activities around the world.

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Thanks for the link unionist. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they got a large chunk of funding from people wanting to demonize China (or whatever country).

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Originally posted by Cueball:
True, that is how China's relationship with Tibet really begins, in the 8th Century with Tibetan conquest of China. Of course the traditional vision of the consequences of that is that China assimilates the invaders, just as they did with Mongols after.

But the problem with the "assimilationist" view of Chinese history is that it is largely founded on the conceit of those who have mythologized Chinese culture, as the basis of a National Chinese State, an entity that is based in a civilization that is "5000 years old", or so it is said. The reality is that foundation of the Chinese state a s single contiguous adminstrative unit does not really happen until they are conquered by the Mongols in the 13th Century, up until that time they are really 4 Kingdoms, add in the Manchu and you have 5.

The reality is that China is a composition of the cultures and people who make it up, and they have not "assimilated" other peoples so much but melded with them. The Mongols' basicly founded China as a state (not something that fits very well with the modern ideological construct as posed by the Chinese mythology by the powers that be at this time) and in fact Budhism became for a while the state religion of China after the Tibetan conquest of China, and again when conquered by the Mongols.

It is not like there is this preconcieved malign Chinese plot to trick alien cultures into invading them so that they can weaken and assimilate them using ancient techniques they learned with great patience.

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Originally posted by Erik Redburn:
Thanks for your efforts Gram, but there's no getting through to people when they're committed to a simplistic belief system.

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Originally posted by Erik Redburn:
Well, that might be the case if his historical revision wasn't based on fiction, but maybe you're just nicer than I am.

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Yeah, I try to be nice, though we all know often it takes a lot of effort. It's generally better to discuss and engage in civil debate, rather than throw mud.

I've just started to read the article that unionist listed above. Human Rights Watch Asia doesn't look all that neutral, or even honest - from here I've spun off a new thread on Transparency of NGOs .

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Originally posted by gram swaraj:

Still, would the evidence HRW provides be all fabricated?

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Originally posted by gram swaraj:

Yeah, I try to be nice, though we all know often it takes a lot of effort. It's generally better to discuss and engage in civil debate, rather than throw mud.

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Originally posted by gram swaraj:
Any westerner who criticizes the Chinese government risks being labeled “arrogant.”

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I should've been more precise in my response to your initial post. A discussion on "how the Chinese government can be effectively encouraged to make a better world for themselves, all their citizens" is arrogant because it's based on the claim that the central government hasn't attempted to improve the lives of Chinese and, if it has, it's not enough, and that the livelihood of millions of Chinese hasn't improved. The livelihood of millions of Chinese has improved dramatically since the economic revolution began in 1978 but more time must pass before the lives of millions more improve dramatically.

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China has a history of being torn apart at the seams

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The tearing of China was mostly caused by uprisings because of food shortages, umemployment and corruption. History matters to the central government and that's why social stability through economic reform and anti-corruption campaigns are more important priorities than political reform.

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and it’s understandable that its government may view a western movement for a more democratic China as a Trojan Horse.

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Many senior officials in the central government fear that the democratic Trojan Horse will release Chinese who still haven't benefitted from the economic revolution.

[ 02 May 2008: Message edited by: Liang Jiajie ]

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Originally posted by Fidel:

I certainly hope so. Because in approximately 1980, the U.S.A. was the world's richest economy with the most expensive and most menacing military in the world bar none. [...] I think Asian countries may well be in a bargaining position to convince U.S. hawks to close down some of the 730 cold war era U.S. military bases around the world, and to decommission some number of nuclear weapons stationed in countries and seven seas surrounding China and Russia. There was never any legitimate purpose for nuclear weapons.

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China certainly has financial leverage in its relations with the United States and its allies. I can imagine the negative reaction of the world's financial markets at the mere speculation of a military confrontation between both countries, and the powerful American business lobby would likely pressure the American administration to temper its behaviour. Business and finance is so important between China and other countries that I can imagine the United States losing the support of allies in a real confrontation with China. The Iraq and Afghanistan wars are helpful here because most of the United States' allies have refused to send combat troops to Iraq and Afghanistan, even most member states of NATO refused to do so. These governments have placed their domestic interests before their relationship with the United States. Perhaps they would respond in a similar way if the United States confronted China.

Not to mention the fact that the whole coast is a hornets nest of cheap SAM's, and "silkworm" anti-ship missiles.

This really leaves the nuclear option as the only viable one, and the US is not going to risk losing Ronald Reagan's ranch along with the rest of California over some ridiculous dispute. American capitalists are more than aware that the Chinese are willing to do business, and that lot in the US now are no different than their forefathers who had no problem selling the country down the drain for short-term gain.

This is at best smoke and mirrors and play-brinksmanship for public consumption and to the benefit of domestic distraction.

The people who have to worry are the Japanese.

[ 05 May 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Liang Jiajie:
Many senior officials in the central government fear that the democratic Trojan Horse will release Chinese who still haven't benefitted from the economic revolution.

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Here's a remarkable article published July 10, by Xinhua writer Tian Ye:

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. . "calling a spade a spade" has been the guiding principle and important feature of media coverage on the eve of the Games.

"Report both the good and the bad" has become a distinctive feature of Chinese journalism ahead of the Olympics.

Having been tested by the magnitude-8.0 earthquake in Wenchuan County in southwest Sichuan, the Chinese media have became more truthful, objective and timely in reporting emergencies, which is partly due to the relaxed information environment.

The government has learned, especially after the quake, that only by offering the public trustworthy information in a timely and transparent manner can it curb the spread of rumors and let outsiders make their own judgment and distinguish the good from the bad.

The eased media environment has demonstrated the composure that the government has in its ability to deal with emergencies and mass incidents.

In retrospect, when it comes to the spread of those incidents, except for government announcements and numerous stories by the Chinese domestic media, the role of the Internet can never be ignored.

Speculation and rumors might be rampant online, but blocking the source of stories on the web is far from a wise decision.

What the government needs to do is to channel public grievances, talk with the masses on an equal footing and make known the truth as soon as possible.

The government should not stand in the way by blocking news online, which is an important channel for ordinary people to vent their anger and make their voices heard.

It's been 30 years since China launched its opening up and reform policy in 1978. To share and enjoy the achievements brought about by the economic boom, China must at the same time undergo unavoidable reforms.

The government may not be able to prevent the occurrence of mass incidents. But as long as it observe the principle of transparency and submit its behavior under public scrutiny through the media, it shall continue to enjoy people's trust and support and feel at ease that such incidents will not develop into a full crisis.

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They were immediately quoted by media in semi-autonomous Macau:

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“Biased and misleading”, “unprofessional incident” says Air Macau regarding an article “released by a local media”.

The truth is this press release doesn't deny a single fact published by Macau Daily Times on Wednesday. Facts are facts.

We strongly recommend Air Macau leadership and the communication department to read the article published in our Saturday edition, signed by Xinhua writer Tian Ye, about “lessons of transparency applied by the Chinese government, media” after violent protests in Guizhou, suspects shot dead in Xinjiang and a fatal stabbing attack on police in Shanghai.

“Calling a spade, a spade” has been the guiding principle and important feature of media coverage on the eve of the Games,” says the writer.

“The government has learned, especially after the quake, that only by offering the public trustworthy information in a timely and transparent manner can it curb the spread of rumours and let outsiders make their own judgement and distinguish the good from the bad.”

It's time for Air Macau to learn the same lesson.

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Perhaps it is:

China takes responsible attitude to climate change and environmental protection: "(Xinhua reporters Lv Xueli, Jiang Guocheng and Tian Ye contributed to the reporting.)"

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People have been quick to express anger that the Western world might believe that the Chinese public is "brainwashed" by the Chinese government.

"We have much more free access to news and views of fellow Chinese than you think. Bulletin boards are intensively used here to freely discuss our experiences," says Maggie from Chengdu in Sichuan province

Many are surprised and intrigued by the fact the English language version of the site now appears to be unblocked.

A number of those who sent in messages were aspiring to improve their English and said they were delighted.

But others said they thought the BBC displayed an anti-Chinese bias and a lack of cultural understanding.

"You BBC should know better about China," John Zheng from Shandong province wrote in.

"The reporters in China should learn more about Chinese social life, furthermore about Chinese culture. It is not complete just to explain things in your pre-formed point of view. Chinese society works better in our own way," he continued.

Unlike many other international sites, the BBC News website has essentially been blocked in China since its inception in the late 1990s.

The Chinese language site remains inaccessible to users who do not have access to proxy servers outside China.

Since the site has become more accessible, many people have been able to read BBC coverage of the recent protests in Tibet for the first time, and the comments coming in display a close reading of the coverage.

Headlines of old news stories have been subjected to comprehensive examination.

"Why have you talked about '80 killed' in Tibetan unrest?'" one emailer questions angrily. [The Chinese media have only published their own estimated casualty figures, which are much lower than those given by the Tibetan government-in-exile in India. The BBC has published both.]

Many of the web users appear disconcerted by the interest of the Western media in China.

"After I read some reports about China, I feel a little bit uncomfortable. Maybe as a Chinese I will feel ill when I read something bad about our country, even those things [which] are not written aiming to criticise. But it also surprises me that China has caught such attention from the world," said Emma from Guangzhou.

For some, access is not without its risks.

"I'm a Han Chinese... I can open BBC website without a proxy server in Changsha, China. But I think you had better use a proxy server to read BBC, especially when you leave comments here. If you think it's alright, tomorrow the security service will knock on your door. I'm not kidding," is one user's view.

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A REPORT carried by a London newspaper, The Times, on July 18 saying two monks in a temple in Garze, a Tibetan-inhabited region in Sichuan Province, were shot dead by armed police was fabricated, an anonymous Chinese official has said.

Investigations showed there was no clash between monks and armed police in temples throughout the Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture of Garze on July 12, said the official.

Two monks at Gonchen Monastery in Garze did die that day in a house blast in the monastery, but were not killed by armed police in a dispute with officials as the British newspaper reported in an article entitled "Chinese impose blackout over new Tibetan monk deaths."

The source of the report carried by The Times was said to have been three anonymous Tibetans. The report even described the incident as the first case in recent times of "lethal use of gunfire against Tibetan protesters demanding ... independence."

The official gave details of the truth behind the deaths of the two monks.

An explosion occurred in a house in the northern part of Gonchen Monastery at midday July 12 when six monks were having lunch on the first floor. Three monks escaped but the others were buried.

Two later died of their injuries.

The explosion occurred when "black powder" kept in the house was ignited by a spark from a short circuit in a worn electrical wiring.

It was also disclosed that the temple had broken safety rules in storing 716 kg of the black powder, which is used periodically in Buddhist rituals.

(Xinhua)

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[ 27 July 2008: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]