EDIT: By the way, this thread is probably going to need to get moved, since its not really an "introduction" or "frequently asked question."

[ 24 March 2005: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]

To contain the costs faced by a new public insurer, might it be possible to legislate away the common practice of garages and treatment providers that offer one price if payment is in cash, and a higher price if an insurance company is going to pay?

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Originally posted by paxamillion:

What shall we do about fraudulent claims? Raises the penalties perhaps?

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I know, make the penalties for price gouging and corruption in general for CEO's, Libs and cons, CFO's etc punishable by lining up at dawn and shooting. No ciggy. No blind fold. Insurance companies might then be persuaded to offer more competitive premiums. PM's and their autocratic underlings might actually become accountable, too.

Edited to add "voided on" and then shot at dawn. But not necessarily in that order. HA!

[ 25 March 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by wanderer:
In Ontario, the last gov. to tackle public or gov. controlled auto ins. was the NDP, under Bob Rae. He PROMISED in the election campaign that his government (if elected ! ) which it was, would get it legislated. The first thing he did, was say he couldnt do that. WHY?

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First off, not all of those would be sent packing. A public scheme would bring thousands of those workers under one roof. The NDP can't do much about the stolen EI-UI-O funds for laid off workers or pathetic job training. Not when voters elect traitors like Mulroney, Chretien and Martin to the real seat of power in this country.

And people forget that Lyin' Brian short-changed Bob Rae's government by $3 or $4 billion a year in transfer payments, which Rae needed to pay for public auto at the time.

Add to that, the Peterson Liberals left an "unforseen" annual budget deficit of $2 or $3 billion they didn't tell anyone about leading up to the election.

We're not finished yet. Add to Rae's miseries the fact that Canada was plunged into one of the worst economic recessions since the depression era as Lyin' Brian beat a hasty retreat before voters had a chance to give him the frozen boot.

[ 25 April 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by no1important:
if you are in an accident back in BC and are found out to be a BC resident and not one from Alberta you are screwed.

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Actually, I lived in Vancouver for a year with Alberta auto insurance, and was in accident (not my fault) but there wasn't a problem for me because I had an address (P.O. box, but my parents' address nonetheless) in Alberta. I saved well in excess of $1000 in insurance doing this. A (male) friend of my sisters at the U of A did the opposite, keeping his BC insurance while living in Alberta and also saving several hundred dollars.

The year I was honest and actually switched over to ICBC was the most I'd ever paid until I moved to Toronto, where my partner is now using the car. I second Melsky's question: why is auto insurance so expensive in Toronto (I say Toronto instead of Ontario because I didn't pay that much in Ottawa). I know Vancouver's was expensive because I had to pay boy prices, but that explanation doesn't work for Ontario.

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Originally posted by wanderer:
NOW of course the Ins. Compaies have no fear of gov. control, as it has already been tried. They have complete monopoly !!

Evidence of thier gouging is to be seen in thier profits (4 billion $ ) in Canada last year.!

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So, it's gouging to make a profit? That $4B in profit represents a return on equity of, on average, 5%-6% per insurer. Banks make typically 17% to 20%.

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Originally posted by DrConway:
A public service message: One should not drive without insurance if one can possibly avoid doing so, because it saves one a major asskicking by police.

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Originally posted by kurichina:
Is there an actuary in the house??? (Is that what you are, btw, artfuldodger?)

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Originally posted by no1important:
But they failed to understand though if you are in an accident back in BC and are found out to be a BC resident and not one from Alberta you are screwed.

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Originally posted by paxamillion:
Wouldn't Toronto have a higher rate of auto accident and theft? Wouldn't Toronto garages have higher operating costs which are passed along in repair costs?

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Originally posted by Melsky:

I would like to see a distance based system for charging for insurance. My husband pays the same if he takes the car to work every single day or if he takes the train most days. It would be great to see people rewarded for driving less.

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Originally posted by kurichina:
That much higher than Vancouver or Ottawa? I suppose it's possible but they're all really huge cities. I wonder how Montréal compares...

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I understand that typical driving distances and a whole bunch of other factors do come into play when underwriting a region.

I was also wondering if there is a difference in the government health systems for things like physiotherapy. In Ontario, it's not covered by OHIP, so the insurer picks up costs not covered by an insured's own benefits. I don't know how the provincial health systems work elsewhere.

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Originally posted by kurichina:
car. I second Melsky's question: why is auto insurance so expensive in Toronto (I say Toronto instead of Ontario because I didn't pay that much in Ottawa). I know Vancouver's was expensive because I had to pay boy prices, but that explanation doesn't work for Ontario.

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ICBC is prohibited from discriminating on the basis of sex.

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Originally posted by paxamillion:
Would that mean your policy was cancelled or voided? I believe that those things turn up in the electronic background checking that gets done during underwriting. Not a good thing to have discovered.

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A co-worker of mine several years back was driving his car on Alberta insurance and got away with it for a long time because his family still lived there. Then one day he got in an accident and the Alberta insurance company gave him such a hard time about the fact that he'd been driving his car in BC that he ended up having to move back home (well, his family wanted him back, too, but he told me he needed to move back or he might never be able to get insurance through the insurer again).

So, penalties for trying to mess around with your insurance company can be pretty high.

[ 25 April 2005: Message edited by: DrConway ]

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Originally posted by DrConway:
ICBC is prohibited from discriminating on the basis of sex.

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Originally posted by DrConway:
ICBC is prohibited from discriminating on the basis of sex.

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Originally posted by kurichina:
That's what I meant by having to pay "boy prices"... In Alberta I paid much lower premiums by virtue of being female, in BC *everyone* had to pay boy prices as far I could tell. It was halfway facetious anyways...

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I'm not against public auto insurance if it's fair, (and I think if it was fair it could reduce rates for everyone) but the simple fact of the matter is that I was being charged for risks in which I was statistically unlikely to partake and didn't partake.

From Insurance-Canada:

(why it was, indeed, men who paid more in Alberta)

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Speed Demons
Men were more likely than women to say they drive over the posted speed limit more than 25 percent of the time (42 percent compared to 36 percent, respectively).

Gender Differences
Women were more likely than men to drive over the posted speed limit during morning rush hour (26 percent compared to 18 percent, respectively), although men were more likely than women to drive over the posted speed limit late at night (32 percent compared to 19 percent, respectively).

And, women were more likely than men to be deterred from driving over the posted speed limit due to safety concerns (50 percent compared to 40 percent, respectively); although men were more likely than women to be deterred from driving over the posted speed limit if it meant paying more for auto insurance (17 percent compared to 11 percent, respectively).

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Edited to add:
According to this, raising rates was more likely to deter men from speeding than women.

[ 25 April 2005: Message edited by: kurichina ]

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I'm not against public auto insurance if it's fair, (and I think if it was fair it could reduce rates for everyone) but the simple fact of the matter is that I was being charged for risks in which I was statistically unlikely to partake and didn't partake.

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So what you're suggesting is that men who refrain from speeding or other risky behavior should be penalized for daring to be the same gender as those who do.

With the current hubbub going on over 'gender based pricing' (even a movement to make it illegal), it's a bit ironic that it seems to be ok when it goes the other way.

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The way I have always heard it is that female drivers are assumed to be riskier drivers and therefore get hit with higher premiums, which unfortunately contributes to sexist notions about "woman drivers".

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The Consumers’ Association of Canada today expressed outrage that ICBC has, following a year of secret negotiations, committed to pay millions into an insurance pool to subsidise Ontario based private insurers who fail to meet their financial obligations. “We now know why ICBC has not been returning any of its record profits to the good drivers of BC”, said Mr. Cran. Millions of our premium dollars have been reserved to subsidize private insurer bankruptcies in Ontario. This is completely unacceptable.

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“The only ones being levelled are BC consumers”, said Mr. Cran. First, we have massive record profits by ICBC. Then we have millions in payouts to ICBC managers and employees. Now we have multi millions allocated to subsidizing private insurers based in Ontario. What’s next, a shiny new ivory tower for ICBC?

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Is ICBC really subsidizing private insurance in other provinces?

[ 25 April 2005: Message edited by: ReeferMadness ]

But I don't think it's correct to characterize ICBC's rates as slightly higher for women. They are significantly higher in my experience and that of most everyone I've known who's lived in both places.

And in regards to gendered stereotypes about drivers, I've never heard that women were considered riskier drivers. I always felt that jokes about 'women drivers' referred disparagingly to our skill as drivers, not our risk level. I've always anecdotally found guys to take more risks, however.

edited: 'whose' to 'who's'

[ 25 April 2005: Message edited by: kurichina ]

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Originally posted by Agent 204:
In Manitoba, collision coverage is automatic, so there is no two-tier pricing.

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Sure, but do you have to put every potential claim through? Say you've already had an accident this year, and you are in a fender bender that you might rather pay than put through on your insurance. In Ontario, there is no law against a garage charging you less for direct payment than if it was paid from a reported claim.

[ 25 April 2005: Message edited by: Agent 204 ]

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Is ICBC really subsidizing private insurance in other provinces?

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I don't believe so. I believe ICBC is participating in what is called reinsurance -- not a subsidy; rather, a form of sharing the risk.

Insurance companies can buy what is called reinsurance, which is used to reduce the overall risk. The insurance company pays a premium to the reinsurer (ICBC in this case) for the right to seek help if it is having trouble with the risks under its management.

Some reinsurers protect insurers in the event of a servere weather event (like an ice storm). In exchange for getting premiums from the insurer, the reinsurer risks such an event taking place.

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Originally posted by Agent 204:
In that case, if the person you hit agrees, you can do it yourself- but I'm not sure if it's actually legal to do that, and in any case I've never known anyone who's done it.

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Happens all the time in Ontario. And is there ever a difference in the two prices. I'd be curious to know the legality in MB.

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That question can only be answered if we compare the average for all drivers, regardless of sex, age, etc, in the two provinces. If the average in BC is significantly higher, then that will be part of the reason why the cost for women is higher. How do the rates for women in Alberta compare to the rates for all drivers in Manitoba, where public auto insurance really works?

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The only information I can find on this is in this report by the Consumers Association of Canada.

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Originally posted by ReeferMadness:
It shows the public insurers are on average significantly less expensive than private insurers. AFAIK, this is true.

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AFAIK this is true, too. Did the CAoC study use cases of risks with identical benefits, deductibles and such? It's very hard to do, so I wouldn't be surprised if the answer is no.