Was this a good-bye present to the new ME 'peace envoy'?

Guardian link

quote:

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According to some witnesses, the light metallic green Mercedes saloon was driven erratically and crashed into bins near a nightclub. The driver was then seen running away.

During an initial investigation of the vehicle, officers found a potentially viable device. It was made safe three hours later.

Police are now frantically searching landmark sites across the capital for further explosive devices. They were not sure whether the bomb was a lone device or one of several deployed across London.

---

When you read the New York Times, it appears they have already concluded through general linkages it was a part of a "jihadist conspiracy" (while dutifully reporting the official British position that no one knows).

It is too early to know where this will all lead, but the directions in the reports are interesting. The British appear to have taken some care, followed by the CBC, in not pre-judging. The Americans, even through one of its less strident news sources, have already narrowed the issue.

quote:

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The Independent offers a specific quote from an official saying it could be the work of muslim extremists, a breakaway IRA sect or an animal rights group.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
Of course if you were an Islamofascist Al-Qaeda copycat in London, you might regard the fact that it was the Pride route as a convenient way to kill two birds with one stone. Those people tend to loath gay people too.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
There has been speculation that Muhammed Atta the ringleader on 9/11 was a self-hating gay closet case who wanted to be a suicide bomber for that reason.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
Actually, now that you put it that way - it makes a lot of sense.

---

quote:

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If these amateurish and bungled attempts are truly the work of Islamic terrorists we have nothing to fear.

---

quote:

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Stockholm:
Amateurish stupid people are still quite capable for killing vast numbers of people.

---

What is the point in relation to the contrived war on terrorism?

Amateurish stupid people have been killing vast numbers for eons. They are found in every society, belief, race and so on. Some of them are aggressive heads of state that invade places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

quote:

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Stockholm:
Who said anything about the so-called war on terrorism.

---

Just about every source that is reporting this. Even in this thread we hear about Al Qaeda, Islamofacists and so on.

quote:

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Believe it or not it is actually possible to be 100% opposed to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and to the prison in Guantanamo Bay and to the Patriot Act - and ALSO be opposed to people blowing up subways full of people at rush hour and people hijacking planes and flying them into buildings.

---

quote:

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Just about every source that is reporting this. Even in this thread we hear about Al Qaeda, Islamofacists and so on.

---

My take on this is that it is a 'drill' for a big false flag terrorist attack. It is meant to see that, given the new government of Gordon Brown, all the crucial decision-makers are still on side and on page...if any government official or media news editor deviats from the script one iota, he or she can be culled before the next drill or the 'big one'.

Here is another take by the blogger, kurt nimmo

Kurt Nimmo views the lates London False Flag attack

gc

[ 30 June 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

quote:

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Stockholm:
What's the alternative? To just sit back and allow these terrorist attacks to happen?

---

What's the alternative to hyping up these incidences, blowing them out of proportion and using them to sow fear for political purposes?

How about not doing so? How about treating them like criminal acts and their perpetrators as base criminals instead of elevating them to the stature of terrorists and giving them more credence than they merit?

Who is for allowing these things to happen? I don't think that point of view can be rationally deduced from the exchanges here. Who benefits from these acts anyway? Mostly the governments of the countries in which they occur since they make handy excuses for increasing control over the population.

quote:

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Are you disappointed that the authorities in London managed to prevent this catastrophe?

---

Well, for one we can not be sure that they didn't have a hand in it, and for two, what did they prevent? Three attacks that failed either because the attackers were incompetent, or because they were supposed to look like failures. If the authorities managed to prevent catastrophe as you say, that would be an argument for a participatory role in planning an event not meant to create casualties, only fear.

quote:

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As if we are supposed to just suppress the whole story and pretend that it didn't happen.

---

You know, the London attack that coincided exactly with the drill that was supposed to involve a terrorist attack on the exact subway station that was 'really' attacked?

You know the young man I am referring to, the Brazilian electrician that was shot point blank by some SWAT team that trailed him through the subway?

Did this family ever get compensation for this terrorist attack on an innocent man?

quote:

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Originally posted by greencrow:
Did this family ever get compensation for this terrorist attack on an innocent man?

---

I don't know that they did or that the killers were ever prosecuted.

Or that the family was compensated for the loss of their son through a terrorist attack.

Was he guilty? Was there a trial of his killers so we could find out?

quote:

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Originally posted by greencrow:
Was he guilty? Was there a trial of his killers so we could find out?

---

You said he was an "innocent man". I was simply curious as to the source of your knowledge. As for me, I just don't know. Why are you asking me all these questions? Either tell me why you said he was innocent, or try repeating after me (it's easy after the first few times):

I thought the legal standard was

"innocent until proven otherwise."

Does that still stand?

quote:

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Originally posted by greencrow:

"innocent until proven otherwise."

Does that still stand?

---

"Al Qaeda" Learning Curve Sucks

"...When the government pulled off 9/11 they wanted us to believe we faced a powerful and implacable foe filled with hatred of anything american and capable of defeating a multi trillion dollar defensive shield. Of course a stand down order from Dick Cheney didn't hurt, but Al Qaeda, according to the damage done and all the bloviating brownshirts, was such a force to be reckoned with that we were impelled to turn our republic into an authoritarian police state.

The brownshirts will tell you there hasn't been another 9/11 because of all the draconian measures and due diligence exercised by our overseers and their minions. The real reason is we haven't gotten to the right timing for the fascists to pull off another massive false flag attack to further their agenda for full control, likely to happen just prior to war with Iran and Syria.

But we fluoridated hoi polloi don't have no lengthy attention span let alone any kind of long term memory so our masters felt the need to remind us about Osama and his death machine. From time to time they stage laughable events and play tapes for us and generally try to inject that good old 9/11 fear and outrage they fed from of like starving vultures. Rounding up some patsies that can't tie their shoes without help, setting off a bomb or two here and there and resorting to battling sippy cup terrorism is supposed to reduce us to quivering bowls of jello, fearfully begging them to save us from the Dreaded Al Qaeda menace.

But a couple of gallons of gas and some nails? Sometimes I think the spooks at Langely and M15 get bored with their invented terror plots."

. . . . . . .

But they have to do something to boost TV ratings over a long weekend.

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:
Every thread is about 9/11, eh gc? What is this, some kind of conspiracy?

---

QUEEG: There's no need for that. ... All the officers were disloyal. They were always fighting me. If the crew wanted their shirt-tails out, they'd let them. Take the tow line ... defective equipment. But they began spreading wild rumors about my steaming in circles -- and then "Old Yellowstain." I was to blame for Maryk's incompetence. Maryk was the perfect officer, but not Queeg. But the strawberries ... Ah, that's where I had them! I proved with geometric logic that a duplicate key to the icebox existed. I could have produced that key. They were protecting some officer ... Naturally, I can only cover these things from memory. If I've left anything out, just ask me specific questions ... and I'll be glad to answer them ...

one by one.

Lt. Greenwald: No further questions, sir.

quote:

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What's the alternative to hyping up these incidences, blowing them out of proportion and using them to sow fear for political purposes?

---

I don't see how it's "blowing anything out of proportion" to run headlines after two cars packed with enough explosives to kill thousands of people are discovered in the middle of London, followed by someone trying to drive a car packed with explosives into the Glasgow airport on the same day and almost getting burned to death doing it (somehow I doubt if Scotland Yard has any South Asian officers who would voluntarily burn themselves alive just to help "create hysteria").

This is a big news story any way you slice it.

Are we also "overhyping" the story of Maher Arar or of the Brazilian guy who was shot by the London police? No. Those stories deserve to be told and so does this one.

Nodding Head doll media covers non event in London

gc

[ 01 July 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

[ 01 July 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

[ 01 July 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

quote:

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Originally posted by greencrow:
Plot overblown...'bombs' could not have killed anyone.

---

Oh, sure. Try to bury this story. Cover up the fact that the Glasgow Airport just happens to house the West's prime communications network running ABM defences.

It's all a gigantic coincidence - is that what you would have us believe, gc?

You're still harping on 9/11, trying to divert attention from one single event which could have been more devastating than 100 million 9/11s according to a preliminary estimate by the General Intelligence and Communication Coordination Centre (GICCC)?

Inquiring minds will follow this to the end, no matter how many cynics and jokers try to distract us.

ETA: Don't bother trying to Google the above info. I just checked, and someone has deleted all the references, even from the Google cache and http://www.archive.org. God they're thorough, but luckily I've kept images on a hard drive which I've secured in a safe deposit box.

[ 01 July 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]

quote:

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Stockholm:
I'm sorry if it is "inconvenient" to some people s political agenda for there to be three attemped terorist attacks on London on the same day. But you can't just pretend that it didn't happen.

---

I haven't heard any arguments in favour of pretending that it didn't happen, I guess such spin might be convenient to someone's political agenda though, eh?

quote:

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This is a big news story any way you slice it.

---

So are the antics of Paris Hilton, at least according to a lot of the media.

What is at issue, however, is not that it is a news story, even a big story, but in how you slice it.

Media can also be theatre, and often more important than the event itself is the message that is delivered in the reporting.

As an example a in a recent story on a poll on citizenship the media reported that 40% of Canadians oppose dual citizenship, a fact that was used as the headline. Ask yourself why didn't they report instead that 60% of Canadians do not oppose dual citizenship?

quote:

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Are we also "overhyping" the story of Maher Arar or of the Brazilian guy who was shot by the London police? No. Those stories deserve to be told and so does this one.

---

Was London Bomb Plot Heralded On Web?

"Hours before London explosives technicians dismantled a large car bomb in the heart of the British capital's tourist-rich theater district, a message appeared on one of the most widely used jihadist Internet forums, saying: "Today I say: Rejoice, by Allah, London shall be bombed."

CBS News found the posting, which went on for nearly 300 words, on the "al Hesbah" chat room.
Posted Jul 1, 2007 10:22 AM PST
Category: COVER-UP/DECEPTIONS

Only problem is that the "al Hasbah" chat room is REGISTERED WITH A DOMAIN REGISTRATION COMPANY IN SCOTTSDALE, ARIZONA, one that hides the identity of the original registrar.

quote:

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All stories deserve to be told, that isn't the issue.

---

What is the issue? Don't you agree that it is very disturbing that in one day there have been three separate attempts to blow up hundreds or even thousands of people in the UK?

I started this whole debate by saying that it is very scary and disturbing that these incidents have occurred and that I'm glad that the plots were foiled and that i hope everyone behind the plots gets arrested.

Anybody ever hear what became of that case?

Oh, and what about the testimony in the recent Air India Inquiry by several witnesses that they were told by a CSIS official that there was going to be a terrorist attack on a plane BEFORE it happened?

Any fall-out from that blockbuster revelation?

You have M16, the CIA, the Mossad, CSIS and several other agencies that have to prove that they need their multi-million dollar budgets.

And they have to have regular 'terror drills' to make sure there aren't any moles in their organization that won't play ball to produce the proper media hype and terror levels. They have to find out who in the government bureaucracies and media need to be culled before the next event.

That's how they control the western societies by their hidden government...the true agenda of which is globalization....one all seeing eye at the top of the pyramid...just like on the US dollar.

Problem is, there is a growing movement throughout the world to snatch that eye out of it's socket and tromp on it so that humanity can be free and pursue issues of international justice, universal health care and environmental restoration and preservation.

gc

[ 01 July 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

Now what are the chances of that!?

quote:

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Stockholm:
Don't you agree that it is very disturbing that in one day there have been three separate attempts to blow up hundreds or even thousands of people in the UK?

---

That people would blow up people is disturbing, no matter who are why. Has it been irrefutably established that this was an attempt to do so? Even if it has, the degree of competency exhibited does not make this as near as disturbing as if it were done by people who knew what they were doing.

quote:

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I started this whole debate by saying that it is very scary and disturbing that these incidents have occurred and that I'm glad that the plots were foiled and that i hope everyone behind the plots gets arrested.

---

I hope that everyone behind these actions get arrested, too. No matter where the chips may fall. But were these plots foiled? How were they foiled? From what I have read, which isn't everything, they were either successful, or totally incompetent. I guess one might argue they were foiled by incompetence, but I usually associate foiled with an interdicting act by an outside party.

Are you arguing that the authorities knew that these acts were planned and then foiled them?

What plays into the hands of those with an interest in promoting the so called war on terror is taking events for more than they are and helping to spread hysteria.

Do you seriously think it was just a coincidence that THREE different "incompetent and amateurish" plots failed on the same day and that there was no connection??

quote:

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Stockholm:
Do you seriously think it was just a coincidence that THREE different "incompetent and amateurish" plots failed on the same day and that there was no connection??

---

I never suggested that.

quote:

---

I keep trying to imagine if on the morning of Sept. 11 airport security people had arrested 19 people armed with box-cutters....

---

What is the relevance to the current issue?

Are you suggesting that every vehicle require a trip order and be checked by security officials before leaving its assigned parking area? That would put an end to much of this car bombing stuff.

We could require everybody to fly naked and have every piece of luggage totally checked by hand inspection before it goes on a plane. That would foil a lot of hijack and air terror plots.

In fact we could require that everyone have a passport and be required to present it on demand anywhere by a public official, and require travel documents to go more than so many km from one's registered domicile, that would really put a cramp on terrorism.

I keep imaging that if people historically hadn't been exploiting one another, building empires, establishing colonies, etc. and etc. ....

quote:

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Stockholm:
There is nothing "so-called" about the terrorist act of blowing up civilians with a car bomb. Why don't you go to Australia or to Bali and tell all the victims of the car bombing there that it was a "so-called terrorist act" and that somehow the pacifist Hindus of Bali did something to deserve it.

---

The invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan are also acts of terrorism. The history of the US and the west is one of a never ending series of state sponsored terrorism, yet when we speak of terrorism those things are generally left off of the table. Instead we have a "war on terrorism" that really isn't. In fact what we have is a war between terrorists. If you take sides, you are supporting terrorism.

You are right, blowing up cars in public places with the intent to frighten or harm people is an act of terrorism. In fact if the UK events were false flag operations they would still be an act of terrorism, though the perpetrators and their chroniclers probably would call them necessary acts of patriotism.

I call it so called terrorism because when the word is used it usually is very slanted in its meaning.

When I see reports from our forces in Afghanistan that say "In a terrorist attack today we bombed x number of men, women and children" I will have more faith in the use of the word.

"Except that two years ago a group of terrorists in London - incompetent and amateurish as they may have seemed - blew up 56 people and yesterday had it not been for a a chance sighting of smoke from the Mercedes - as many as 1700 people could have been killed by those car bombs."

. . . . . .

Except that the government was performing 'drills' that day that involved 'terrorists' carrying knapsacks with explosives into the very subway station where the actual bombs went off;...

...what are the odds that that was a 'coincidence', Stockholm?

gc

[ 01 July 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

Fer gawd sake, keep a diary if you have to. Jot down every time one of these terror events happens and then follow up to see what happens with the people arrested...invariably they are let go with no charges...particularly in states outside of the US where the judges have not yet been bought.

At some point, you will end up saying 2+2 = 4.

quote:

---

Originally posted by greencrow:
The problem is that average joes and josephines have such incredibly short memories...

Fer gawd sake, keep a diary if you have to.

---

I have a very long memory and I keep a diary, too.

That's why when I see greencrow, I think purplepigeon!

purplepidgeon is no relative of mine. I have been posting under greencrow on several different forums since 2002.

Here's a good one...the US Intelligence says that 'al queda' [of course everone knows that al queda was initiated and trained by the CIA to fight the Russians in Afghanistan] is planning a 'spactacular' summer of 'terror events'.

ABC
news says US says al quada planning 'spactacular' summer

Isn't it time we the people broke up this phony baloney international terror club before they kill again?

The trouble with this terror club is that while the events they plan are phony... they kill for real.

Prague, the Czech Republic,

against "airport infrastructure and aircraft."

. . . . . .

Of course Prague would be on the list of terror subjects...the Czech people just came out overwelmingly AGAINST having a star wars missile base on their soil.

Gawd, get these f*ckers off the planet!

gc

[ 02 July 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

[ 02 July 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

[ 02 July 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by greencrow:
"...As ABCNews.com reported, U.S. law enforcement officials received intelligence reports two weeks ago warning of terror attacks in Glasgow and

Prague, the Czech Republic,

against "airport infrastructure and aircraft."

. . . . . .

Of course Prague would be on the list of terror subjects...the Czech people just came out overwelmingly AGAINST having a star wars missile base on their soil.

Gawd, get these f*ckers off the planet!

gc

[ 02 July 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

[ 02 July 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

[ 02 July 2007: Message edited by: greencrow ]

---

Now, as for the 'muslim drs'...how many times has the zionist controlled mainstream media pointed us in the direction of 'muslims' only to discover later that these were young men who were recruited by an undercover RCMP cop as in the case of the 'paintball' terrorists or, in the case of the shoebomb terrorist, a mentally handicapped man who was obviously co-opted.

I believe there was an incident in the southern US states where some marginal people were recruited as well, There just is no credibility attached to these charges anymore when they come, as they do, from a source that has a major conflict of interest.

If you want a spell checker to deal with things like posting on rabble here is what you can do:

1. Forget Microsoft's Internet Explorer and install Firefox, its free and a much better web browser.

2. Firefox allows for dozens of various add on utilities, all free, that you can pickup from their site. One is a dictionary.

When I type in the rabble reply box all of my obviously misspelled words are automatically underlined. A right mouse click on the word brings up a choice of possible correct ones.

Check out Firefox at:

Their reputations were ruined and their families were put through hell,,,,but all to a good 'cause' eh, contrariana?

At the time the media was 100% sure these young men were jihadists of the worst sort...but...one by one they were let go by judges who were appalled by the paucity of evidence against them.

Now, we have two young muslim doctors who work in nearby hospitals arrested based on the colour of their skin...

This is digusting... and it HAS to stop!

quote:

---

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

---

Just because the people arrested were Muslims doesn't mean that they are automatically innocent. One of the men apparently drove a car loaded with explosives into a crowded airport terminal and then proceeded to douse himself with gasoline and try to immolate himself before being arrested. Apparently he happens to be a South Asian Muslim. So be it. I I don't care if he is a doctor from Pakistan or a red headed frustrated Scottish nationalist - if you are caught red-handed trying to firebomb an airport full of innocent people - you should be arrested and charged.

One must ask, why is it important that the ethnic or religious background of the perpetrators be mentioned at all.

"...A few years ago Timothy McVeigh was arrested and charged with mass murder. I think he was arrested because there was a weight of evidence pointing to his guilt - not because the FBI was on some vendetta against white Christians."

. . . . . . . . .

Actually, there are a lot of gaps in the Oklahoma Bombing on a par with the gaps in the 9/11 evidence. Just to mention one....Timothy McVeigh used to be in the U.S. military and was assigned to a base that had black ops running from it.

quote:

---

One must ask, why is it important that the ethnic or religious background of the perpetrators be mentioned at all.

---

I suppose we could pass a law saying that it is illegal to make any reference to the religion, ethnic origin or gender or political leanings or affiliations of anyone who commits a crime anywhere.

quote:

---

Among other things this whole series of events is a propaganda exercise.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
..anytime you have three attempted mass murders on the same day, it makes sense for the police to try to find links between the crimes and to try to establish motives and to find out who was involved etc...

---

No one is questioning whether or not the police investigate links, another strawman and followed by another 2, just for good measure, I guess.

quote:

---

I suppose we could pass a law saying that it is illegal to make any reference to the religion, ethnic origin or gender or political leanings or affiliations of anyone who commits a crime anywhere.

---

Now why would you lump all that together, a cluster fuck of strawmen do not mean anything.

quote:

---

From now on when a rape occurs, any newspaper report is forbidden to say whether the rapist was male or female (what difference does it make?)

---

quote:

---

Stockholm:
OK, fair enough, then the next time that bombs land in Gaza or the West Bank, I guess we should censor all reference to the source of the bombs being Israel.

---

As Remind points out, there is a difference between one's ethnic background and the official action of a state.

I don't think that they should have been identified as doctors, just saying suspects would have sufficed.

quote:

---

I think that anytime you have three attempted mass murders on the same day, it makes sense for the police to try to find links between the crimes and to try to establish motives and to find out who was involved etc...

---

Yes, and what does that have to do with how it is reported in the press? Nobody is arguing for that information to be discarded by the police. However, even the reporting of names of suspects can be unduly prejudicial and taints the right of innocent until proven guilty.

quote:

---

So, do you think the British government secretely hired some willing South Asians and paid them to try to burn themselves alive in a purposely botched terrorist attack on Glasgow airport - all to score propaganda points?

---

No idea, I keep an open mind until there is definitive proof one way or the other. Can you prove that they didn't.

Assuming that they didn't or some foreign country didn't, the way that it is handled in the press still makes it a propaganda exercise to a degree.

quote:

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So tell me, is there any good reason why the gender of rapists ought to ever be mentioned or discussed?

---

quote:

---

Stockholm:
Are you suggesting that the media be banned from reporting on the name or any personal characteristics of anyone arrested as a suspect in any crime

---

Are you suggesting trial by media? What does reporting those things accomplish? We already ban it if a minor is involved. Why?

Perhaps if one is tried in the media and later found innocent in court they should have an open and shut case for slander against all media that did so. Banning wouldn't be necessary if you were guaranteed to lose a lawsuit every time you reported someone was charged with a crime and they were then acquitted.

It can be argued that Conrad Black, of course, is a public figure and different rules apply. It is a debatable point. Certainly there should be no bar for one charged to make the information public.

quote:

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....we should only be allowed to know who was charged after there has been a conviction - in other words all trials must take placxe in camera?

---

No. There is a difference between being able to go to the court and find out who is being charged, if one is so inclined, and having someone tried by the media. The issue isn't about court procedure, or even police procedure aside from their predilection to conduct fishing expeditions in the media, it is about media responsibility and the right of a person to a fair trial and the right to be considered innocent until proven guilty.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jerry West:

One must ask, why is it important that the ethnic or religious background of the perpetrators be mentioned at all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel_Goldenberg:

What if the perpetrators bombed an abortion clinic?

---

What if they did? What difference would it make if they were white, black, protestant, Hindu or whatever?

[ 03 July 2007: Message edited by: Briguy ]

quote:

---

Stockholm:
If an abortion clinic were bombed, I for one would want to know....

---

I know that in repressive police states, these kinds of details get routinely suppressed. But here we need to have as much transparency as possible.

I'm sorry if the fact that a growing list of doctors from South Asia were apparently involved in this attempted mass murder is inconvenient for your political agenda. Why don't you complain to the perpetrators about it.

[ 03 July 2007: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

quote:

---

Stockholm:
It can take years to secure a conviction in our justice system. In the meantime, I think that the public has a right to know who has been arrested and what direction a police investigation is taking.

---

Of course, but the argument is not against this, so what's your point?

quote:

---

But here we need to have as much transparency as possible.

---

I completely agree and haven't argued otherwise. Of course there is a difference between transparency and trial by media.

quote:

---

I'm sorry if the fact that a growing list of doctors from South Asia were apparently involved in this attempted is bad for your political agenda.

---

Cute comment, though not true. And what difference does it make it they are either doctors or South Asians? Does that make them more guilty or less, the crime more heinous or less?

quote:

---

Why don't you complain to the perpetrators about it.

---

Do we know beyond a reasonable doubt who they are, as proven in a court of law, or do we just have suspects who have the right to be deemed innocent until proven otherwise?

Shall we put them on a rack and extract a confession? Maybe send them to Guantanamo until they can establish their innocence?

I suppose that MAYBE this was all done by a bunch of Martians coming off a UFO who were disguised to look like South Asians and who had fake IDs saying they were doctors.

quote:

---

And what difference does it make it they are either doctors or South Asians? Does that make them more guilty or less, the crime more heinous or less?

---

It doesn't make them more or less guilty or the crime more or less heinous, but if it allows the police to put together leads that show that this was a conspiracy of several people acting in unison - then it is important that the plot be exposed so we can prevent any further attempts at mass murder that may not otherwise be foiled.

For many years there were IRA bombings in the UK as well. In those cases where the IRA was suspected, that was publicized and the police tried to infiltrate and arrest anyone connected with the crime.

Are we supposed to live in some bizarre 1984-like world where the IRA blows up pubs and shops on a daily basis and the press is supposed to be muzzled and not allowed to report on the fact that the IRA is suspected and instead we are only allowed to read a headline that says "Pub spontaneously blows up. Five dead"

quote:

---

Stockholm:
I think that when it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

---

In other words in this case doctors and South Asians are terrorists.

quote:

---

....but if it allows the police to put together leads that show that this was a conspiracy of several people acting in unison - then it is important that the plot be exposed so we can prevent any further attempts at mass murder that may not otherwise be foiled.

---

Who is we? No one is advocating hindering the police's ability to put together leads unless media fishing expeditions are what you are looking for.

Personally, I was brought up to understand that trials should be held in court rooms, not in the media.

quote:

---

For many years there were IRA bombings in the UK as well. In those cases where the IRA was suspected, that was publicized and the police tried to infiltrate and arrest anyone connected with the crime.

---

First off, publication should not help nor hinder the police's ability to suspect and infiltrate.

Second, the IRA often took credit for the action, they wanted it to be publicized so no protection necessary. Of course that brings up a whole other issue of letting the criminals use the media for their own devices.

quote:

---

Or should we have newspaper reports that say....

---

Conrad Black may be aquitted. Should the CBC then have to pay him a billion dollars because news coverage of his trial damaged his reputation?

"Personally, I was brought up to understand that trials should be held in court rooms, not in the media."

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jerry West:

Newspapers should be responsible and not damage the reputation of innocent people. Would you favour a law that said if an media reported that someone had been arrested for a heinous crime, a report that most likely would ruin their reputation, and then that person was found innocent, the media would be responsible for the damages done and liable to pay huge reparations?

---

quote:

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Stockholm:
I don't favor making the media pay "damages" to people when they publicize the fact that someone has been charged with a crime.

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What if they haven't been charged but are only under investigation?

quote:

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Conrad Black may be aquitted. Should the CBC then have to pay him a billion dollars because news coverage of his trial damaged his reputation?

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Conrad Black, a public figure who has thrived on media coverage, is not a good example.

How about an innocent school teacher who gets falsely accused of molesting students, is arrested and charged, has her name drug through the media for months and then is released for lack of evidence? The chances are that she is through teaching in the community, her home may have been vandalized, her children taunted, shunned or worse, and her significant other out of a job. Heaven help her more so if she is gay or a member of an ethnic or religious group that is a minority in the community.

quote:

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but the media must have the right to report on NEWS.

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quote:

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How about an innocent school teacher who gets falsely accused of molesting students, is arrested and charged, has her name drug through the media for months and then is released for lack of evidence?

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Joel_Goldenberg:
Even if the religious identity of the suspects was not revealed in the media, wouldn't a trial of fundamentalist Christians in general inevitably be held on Babble or other forums and blogs?

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Beside the point. And whether that information was published or not would depend upon the suspects themselves. If their defense is their religious beliefs then its fair game.

quote:

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But the reporting should be fair and made clear whoever was arrested is only a suspect.

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But for some crimes being made public as a suspect is just as damaging as a conviction, and connecting race or gender or religion of preference for breakfast cereal to it builds a prejudice against those things.

It is all fair game when a conviction is attained or when the suspect puts it on the table themself.

The media is not a neutral medium, it shapes opinions and attitudes and can be a catalyst to public behavior. It should not use that ability either intentionally or inadvertently to harm innocent people.

Some, I realize, disagree.

quote:

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Stockholm:
Then it is the responsibility of the police, the crown prosecutors and the government to compensate. Not the media.

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Small comfort to a women who has had her life needlessly destroyed, something that could have been easily avoided by waiting for a conviction.

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Stockholm:
In the interest of freedom of the press, I do not believe that the media should be barred from reporting on people being arrested in connection with crimes.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jerry West:

I am barred from publishing the names of young offenders arrested for crimes, and the court has the right to impose publication bans. Does that make us a police state or should those blocks be removed?

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Children have special rights, which are different from adults in many aspects other than this. They are protected under child welfare acts and are tried under completely seperate legislation than adults when they commit crimes. Using children as an example is irrelevant.

The media will and should continue to have the right to publish information about the arrests of adults.

[ 03 July 2007: Message edited by: EmmaG ]

[ 03 July 2007: Message edited by: contrarianna ]

quote:

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Just about every source that is reporting this. Even in this thread we hear about Al Qaeda, Islamofacists and so on. Stockholm

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There is no such thing as "Islamo-Fascists". It is only a term coined by propagandist neo-cons of the Bush and company brand.

Assuming that "Islamo-Fascism" is the movement that tries to establish, establishes or maintains an islamic theocratic regime through the force of the gun (violence), one must count the Saudi regime as "Islamo-Fascist".

How is it then that there was no war on the Islamo-Fascist" Taliban pre Sept 11, that there is no war on "Islamo-Fascists" who run Saudi Arabia, but there is a war against other "Islamo-Fascists" ?

The answer is that there is "Islamo=Fascism" only when the Western imperialist countries and their protegé the Zionist entity are thwarted in their attempts to exploit, subjugate, bully and neo-colonize Muslim lands.

How did Stockholm use this term ? Clear. It is central to the hysteria-creating and hype-inducing pro-imperialist and pro-Zionist Islamophobic propaganda. Put the word Islam beside Fascist and dish it uncritically, daily and freely for public consumption. Force of repetition brings about belief: Islam equals fascism.

How is it that Stockholm went even further to apply the term to British Muslims who allegedly took part in the latest events in the UK, since it does not appear that their goal is to establish an islamic theocracy in the UK?

The answer is that Stockhom is only spreading neo-cons' propaganda, to serve neo-cons`imperialist interests and the interests of their protegé, the Zionist entity.

Stockholm:

Do you think it would be appropriate to use such term as "Judeo-Fascism" or "Judeo-Apartheid" as a system inflicted on Palestinians ?

Why is the term "Islamo-Fascism" acceptable then?

Please read this article and stop using this term:

http://tinyurl.com/yploob

-.

[ 03 July 2007: Message edited by: bohajal ]

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EmmaG:
Using children as an example is irrelevant.

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It is relevant in the context used. Stockholm contends that with holding the names of the accused is tantamount to a police state. The question is does Stockholm think that this applies to with holding the names of minors or publication bans on trial proceedings?

Maybe you are arguing that what Stockholm thinks is irrelevant?

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Contrariana:
....the ability to get information, even if it is sometimes disinformation, is essential to an open society.

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That is not being contested. There is a difference between things being public and things being hyped in the media.

quote:

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A prohibition on reporting details, alleged associations and allegiances of an accused, would lead to more abuses by the state rather than less, as people disappeared into a closed legal system.

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Again, the argument is not for a closed legal system nor for the suppression of information by the government, it is an argument for responsible dissemination.

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Even supporters of the accused could not not make their objections known.

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Maybe in your vision, but certainly not what I have been arguing for. The accused and their supporters do not need to be protected from themselves.

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Lewis Libby's

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A public figure and member of government, not the same as a private citizen.

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Stockholm:
But would you rather that people be arrested and incarcerated in secret with no information on what happened?

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Of course this is not being argued for, another strawman irrelevant to the issue at hand.

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Briguy:
Whether or not they were involved, they have already been prosecuted in the press.

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Well, if they were detained and questioned there must be something wrong with them. If they are not convicted it is a failing of the system.

[ 03 July 2007: Message edited by: Jerry West ]

Victims are not adversely affected by having their names kept out of the papers.

Accused people could be, though, if secret arrests were to become the norm.

quote:

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Michelle:
Accused people could be, though, if secret arrests were to become the norm.

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There should never be secret arrests, period, even for security reasons. But not being secret should not be a license to try someone in the media.

Of course thanks to media hype we now have yahoos getting even for the attacks:

quote:

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Neighbours fear Scotland attack was revenge

Vancouver Sun
Published: Tuesday, July 03, 2007

GLASGOW, Scotland - Attackers rammed a car into an Asian-owned newsagents near Scotland's biggest city Glasgow on Tuesday and set it ablaze in what neighbours feared was revenge for Saturday's assault on the city's airport.

Police said they believed the attackers had deliberately reversed the car into the shop on Smithycrost Road in the suburb of Riddrie and then set it ablaze. The shop was burned out. ...

Story

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Don't you realize that by repeating this scurrilous story you are only adding to the hysteria and media frenzy.

[ 03 July 2007: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

[ 03 July 2007: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

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Stockholm:
How do we know it wasn't just an innocent traffic accident?

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We don't, though the chances of that are about the same as the airport attack being one.

I really wonder if Stockholm is real. With all the stuff he is saying, miraculously without ever getting kicked off from babble, could it not be the he is the alter ego of one of the moderators??

quote:

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But notice, no reference to ethnic background, occupation, or religion or other defining characteristic of the alleged perpetrators.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
Well then you MIGHT be able to argue that the fault lies in the authorities releasing the names of people being detained. But would you rather that people be arrested and incarcerated in secret with no information on what happened?

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quote:

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What the hell is happening in this thread?

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It's called Stockholm Syndrome and it is incredibly boring dull and well, it tends to derail threads with silly, meaningless BS. I also ask why Stockholm gets as far as he does here, but alas, he does.

quote:

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Originally posted by bohajal:

There is no such thing as "Islamo-Fascists". It is only a term coined by propagandist neo-cons of the Bush and company brand.

Assuming that "Islamo-Fascism" is the movement that tries to establish, establishes or maintains an islamic theocratic regime through the force of the gun (violence), one must count the Saudi regime as "Islamo-Fascist".

How is it then that there was no war on the Islamo-Fascist" Taliban pre Sept 11, that there is no war on "Islamo-Fascists" who run Saudi Arabia, but there is a war against other "Islamo-Fascists" ?

The answer is that there is "Islamo=Fascism" only when the Western imperialist countries and their protegé the Zionist entity are thwarted in their attempts to exploit, subjugate, bully and neo-colonize Muslim lands.

How did Stockholm use this term ? Clear. It is central to the hysteria-creating and hype-inducing pro-imperialist and pro-Zionist Islamophobic propaganda. Put the word Islam beside Fascist and dish it uncritically, daily and freely for public consumption. Force of repetition brings about belief: Islam equals fascism.

How is it that Stockholm went even further to apply the term to British Muslims who allegedly took part in the latest events in the UK, since it does not appear that their goal is to establish an islamic theocracy in the UK?

The answer is that Stockhom is only spreading neo-cons' propaganda, to serve neo-cons`imperialist interests and the interests of their protegé, the Zionist entity.

Stockholm:

Do you think it would be appropriate to use such term as "Judeo-Fascism" or "Judeo-Apartheid" as a system inflicted on Palestinians ?

Why is the term "Islamo-Fascism" acceptable then?

Please read this article and stop using this term:

http://tinyurl.com/yploob

---

[ 04 July 2007: Message edited by: Lard Tunderin' Jeezus ]

quote:

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These doctors aren't terrorists. They are people angry over the genocide being executed in Iraq by the USA and Britain with the tacit OK of the UN.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
These doctors aren't terrorists. They are people angry over the genocide being executed in Iraq by the USA and Britain with the tacit OK of the UN.

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Bruce Schneier asks:

Who invites their friends on a suicide drive anyway?

Sanity

quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
These doctors aren't terrorists. They are people angry over the genocide being executed in Iraq by the USA and Britain with the tacit OK of the UN.

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How do you know that? Have you interviewed them? have they published a manifesto?

Maybe they were just a group of pyromaniacs that tried to blow people up for the pure fun of it?

quote:

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These doctors are both (1) people angry over the genocide being executed in Iraq by the USA and Britain with the tacit OK of the UN; and (2) terrorists intent on taking innocent lives and sowing terror in order to punish the innocent for the crimes of the guilty

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quote:

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Aren't you being racist and stereotypical in assuming that just because all of those arrested were from the Middle East and were Muslim, that what they did had any political motivation???

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Always blathering away at nonsense, eh, Stockholm? For a board that is supposed to uphold certain values, it always surprises me that such a hateful, little man as you seems to have full reign.

[ 04 July 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

quote:

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Friends described Dr. Abdulla as the son of secular and well-educated parents, a man who was considered an extreme and zealous believer in political Islam, whose beliefs alarmed even fellow extremists.

“He supported the insurgency in Iraq, he actively cheered the deaths of British and American troops in Iraq,” while he lived in Cambridge, England, with family members who worked at the university, his ex-roommate and former extremist Shiraz Maher told the BBC program Newsnight last night.

“And he also, which is quite unusual, supported the sectarian conflict, he actively supported the deaths of Shias at the hands of Sunnis. … He believed in the creation of an Islamic state, and in the imposition of sharia law in Iraq and eventually across the entire world.”

Dr. Abdulla, his friends say, was infuriated by what he saw as un-Islamic behaviour by Britons and especially by fellow Muslims – he once was so outraged by his roommate's guitar playing that he threatened to behead him for playing music, which extremist Muslims consider sinful.

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