Creepy. Another pro-wrestler meets a weird premature death.

Anything to do with steroids?

The WWE did a tribute to him tonight, apparently, and had to do some careful dancing around a story-line around the (fake) death of Vince McMahon - which in a rare display of tact on their part, has been dropped.

There has also been some careful stepping around what it appears to have been a brutal murder, the painfully common "he seemed so quiet and nice" that covers so many sins within the family - the man's man who becomes wildly abusive within the home.

I must add, that of course this is a tragedy, I shouldn't make light of!

Edited for insensitivity ...

[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: jrose ]

Seems to me that wrestling of old was much healthier than the latest brand of soap opera and steroids.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Petsy:
I rememebr for example Killer Kowalski, Dick "the bulldog" Brower, Antonia Rocca, Edouard Carpentier, Bruno Sammartino, Bobo Brazil, they seemed cleaner (maybe silly) but it was real fun

---

The Vachon family is legendary, Paul "the butcher" Vachon and sister Vivian all great wrestlers along with another quebecer, Gilles "the Fish" Poisson. And lets not forget other great canadian rasslers like Edmontonian Gene Kiniski, Hamiltonians John and Chris Tolos, Torontonian Whipper Billy Watson.

[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: farnival ]

[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: farnival ]

Rowdy Robbie Piper, Dusty Rhodes and Brett Hart are from the 1980s. Those I mentioned date back to the 1960s...some like the Vachons endured to the 70s.

Old goat, ya Lord Athol Layton, loved him, couldnt wrestle worth a wit but a great performer..also Dr. Gerry Graham, Sweet Daddy Siki, and into the 70s and 80s, Greg "the hammer" Valentine, Honky Tonk Man, Jesse the Body ventura, Jake the snake, the ultimate warrior, and what of the women of yester year and today??? The Fabulous Moolah, Kate Sweet and Little Princess (she wasnt that little about 5'10 135lbs) and probably the best strangling scissor hold in the business!! ....a tragic event leads to a nostalgia that takes us away on a hot and muggy summer day

[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: Petsy ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldgoat:
I believe Boom Boom you are referring to Angelo Mosca.

Yup! He's the one! He had quite a temper, too.

Lord Athol Layton.

Another one of the greats from the past.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Wizard of Socialism:
The Honky Tonk Man was the Greatest Intercontinental Champion of all time! And he also has a tremendous singing voice.

---

edited to add: Terrible, turns out Benoit strangled his wife then asphyxiated his 7 year old son

[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: Petsy ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Petsy:
We should be careful not to confuse decades.

Rowdy Robbie Piper, Dusty Rhodes and Brett Hart are from the 1980s. Those I mentioned date back to the 1960s...some like the Vachons endured to the 70s...

---

with all due respect Petsy, the Piper started wrestling in 1973 and this wiki lists his debut as 1969 and "endured" as you say, to nearly present day. i was born Jan. 9 1970 and can remember him from my earliest recollections, which were likely as soon as i got home from the hospital, knowing my dad! haha.

The Texas Outlaw, Dusty Rhodes started in the late 60's too, and i had a laugh in this bio with the mention of Terry Funk! Him and his brother were bruisers, and of the same biker/tough guy style when i was a kid, jeans and boots, occasionally busting out "foreign objects" like the taped nail hidden under the trunks, or the dreaded "texas rope match" where the two combatants would be roped together at the wrist with a big rough rope used for all manner of hurt on the other guy!

observation: it is always amusing how much normally pacifistic and kind folks can get lathered up and frothing with excitement at t.v. wrestling. haha. i remember when All-Star Wrestling used to tour B.C. and came to our small town. i was likely 12 and couldn't talk for a couple of days after from shouting!

for your amusement: Professional wrestling attacks

[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: farnival ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Petsy:
Yup you are right

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oh yeah? ya care to back that up Petsy? You wanna dance?!?!?!?

quote:

---

...Authorities also said they are investigating whether steroids may have been a factor in the deaths of Benoit, his wife and their 7-year-old son.

Steroid abuse has been linked to depression, paranoia, and aggressive behaviour or angry outbursts known as “roid rage.”

“We don’t know yet. That’s one of the things we’ll be looking at,” said Fayette County District Attorney Scott Ballard...

---snip---

Nancy Benoit filed for a divorce in May 2003, saying their three-year union was irrevocably broken and alleging “cruel treatment.”

But she later dropped the complaint, as well as a request for a restraining order in which she charged that Benoit had threatened her and had broken furniture in their home...

---

it doesnt' say why she dropped the suit but does say in the filing Benoit made $500k a year. was her silence purchased? It is interesting to note her manager name was simply "Woman". as in the context of the genre, would that have been "woman, get me a beer?"

The joke line i used with Petsy was actually used a couple of years ago buy a deluded lad at the local i was having a beer at where a friend having a bad day pissed off pretty much everyone and was tossed out. all the "boys" who hung out there because the owners, much to our dismay, played wrestling at their request on the big screen tv. one of them chased out my friend and squared off with him on the sidewalk shouting "do you wanna dance?" . I intervened and told the guy "nobody here is dancing with you" and my pal was thoroughly perplexed, asking "what on earth is he talking about?". both were quite drunk and harmless in thier own way, but this was a tad surreal. dude went back in all pumped up backslapping his buddies, but stayed away from our table quite obviously.

I think another aspect to this story, and one I hope gets equal coverage, is the horrible labour practices of this fucked up industry of pro wrestling, something that's only become apparent to me over the last few years of my fandom. The WWE (which was Benoit's employer and by far the largest promotion in the world) has fired on air talent while they recouperated from injuries, for being unwilling to work through serious injuries, for trying to form a union, for trying to collect pay promised to them but as yet withheld, for becoming pregnant, and on, and on, and on. Despite the fact that the average wrestler in the WWE would work easily 200 nights a week, arranging their own transportation between shows, only the top stars are guaranteed any time off. (Once, in the late 1980s, the supremely talented Ricky Steamboat was severely punished, in terms of being moved down the card and (later) being given an embarassing gimmick meant to reduce his fan response and thus his ability to make money, for having the temerity to ask for six weeks off when his wife gave birth.) Wrestlers are specifically set up as independent contractors, and not employees, so that the company can avoid covering health costs, providing pensions, and the like. On top of all this, the WWE likes to promote performers with bodybuilder style physiques (or, in the case of the women's division, with body types unattainable except through surgery), and they have a history of releasing or severely underusing and underpaying talented performers (particularly women) because someone else has a better "look". There is a commonly understood pressure for most guys to be on steroids, and a laughable drug testing policy that pretends to care about the health and welfare of the wrestlers while letting them know they can get away with being on the gas indefinitely if they want to.

A combination of working through injuries, excessively hard schedules, and drug abuse has ended the lives of dozens of great wrestlers from the 70s, 80s, and 90s prematurely. I can scarcely count the number of wrestlers I grew up adoring who have died in their 30s, 40s, and early 50s due to the obscene lifestyle success in this industry demands, and that the greedy promoters demand. In the week before this story broke, two performers (one a long time legend on the Calgary scene, the other one of the best managers I've ever seen) died in their 40s in separate incidents, and this was seen in the community of wrestling fans as just another two entries sad but routinely updated list of our childhood heroes who have been worked into an early grave.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boom Boom:
I just watched this story...and Vince McMahon did some kind of a tribute to Benoit last night

---

Yes, wonderful, some kind of tribute eh? What a fucking hero!

He had bound her wrists and ankles before her strangled her, and smothered their son. There was a "Bible" found next to their bodies.

Excuse me, but excusing it as possible steriod use, frivoulously making fun of wrestlers and the WWE making a tribute for this man is beyond belief.

A woman and child were violently murdered in another senseless act of violence, by someone who had at one time professed to love them.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bacchus:
I often wonder when I read about these tragedies of someone killing a lover and themselves or their kids; what brings someone to that. What goes on in their mind so that killing a loved one, a child and themselves seems like a reasonable act?

---

I would think arrogance and narcissism would create a opposite effect, where the individual would hurt and create hardship for others but never do anything to hurt themselves, assuming it will work out for them

[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: Bacchus ]

quote:

---

Time to get back on topic. And yeah, I'll move this to the feminism forum.

---

Thanks. I wasn't sure exactly where to put it at first. The domestic violence angle, although suspected, hadn't been confirmed when I posted.

It is rather surreal here in Edmonton, where Benoit was considered the hometown boy. The fact that he turned out to be another abusive murderer is causing some dissonance around town. How can you pay tribute to a guy who methodically plotted the murder of his family?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bacchus:
Hmm I doubt that in every case like women who kill their kids or the other latest murder suicide where a cop killed her lover then herself.

I would think arrogance and narcissism would create a opposite effect, where the individual would hurt and create hardship for others but never do anything to hurt themselves, assuming it will work out for them

---

Oh yes, let's bring ancedotal evidence in, that because women sometimes kill their kids or partner, it can't possibly reasons of male dominance and supremacy at work, when a testosterone driven minor celebrity that makes money off of violence against others.

quote:

---

ESPN.com is reporting that District Attorney Scott Ballard said Daniel (who was seven years old), had needle marks on his arm. He believed that the boy had been given growth hormones for some time because the family considered him undersized.

---

Hello, first post. Glad to see this was brought to the feminism forum.

quote:

---

Oh yes, let's bring ancedotal evidence in, that because women sometimes kill their kids or partner, it can't possibly reasons of male dominance and supremacy at work, when a testosterone driven minor celebrity that makes money off of violence against others.

---

Bacchus, I think she was referring to this case when answering your rhetorical question. Also, in cases where women kill their kids, I think in a lot of cases it's also something about the patriarchal society we're living in. Women who kill their kids because they think their boyfriends won't want kids, women who kill their kids because they're suffering from post-partum depression and their asshole husbands still expect them to be wifey-for-Jesus...

quote:

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Originally posted by Bacchus:
Didnt say it could not be true in this case, just that it would not account for all cases, your pithy one line dismissal of things notwithstanding

---

We were not talking about every other case we were talking about THIS case!

And how in the hell was I dismissing anything, and fuck I am glad to see the great sensitivity of people when discussing violence against women. And that again women are forced to defend themselves here.

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:

Actions like this affect ALL women! That someone who has professed to love someone, and who should love their child could do this to them, hits pretty fucking close to home! It could be anyone of us women who are the focus of the next fucking insensitive discussion.

---

Sad but TRUE!! . I think the things about hate crimes and violence against women, that is often missed is the effect it has on the target group.

The terror of knowing that your loved one could do this to you, is unmeasurable.

quote:

---

Originally posted by John_D:
I'm not sure how many people I know online know this, but I am (and have been for some time) a fan of professional wrestling. You're right to raise the content as a problem...

...I think another aspect to this story, and one I hope gets equal coverage, is the horrible labour practices of this fucked up industry of pro wrestling...

---

solid post brother John. i too grew up a huge fan of pro wrestling, as can be seen from my posts above, responding to Petsy. I can no longer stomach most of it, but have friends/acquaintainces that are "amateur" pro-wrestlers of various styles, genders and sexual orientations, and have a blast and are not fools or demeaning or exploitative. thank you for the insight to the labour practices in this industry.

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:

Yes, wonderful, some kind of tribute eh? What a fucking hero!

He had bound her wrists and ankles before her strangled her, and smothered their son. There was a "Bible" found next to their bodies.

Excuse me, but excusing it as possible steriod use, frivoulously making fun of wrestlers and the WWE making a tribute for this man is beyond belief.

A woman and child were violently murdered in another senseless act of violence, by someone who had at one time professed to love them.

This thread obviously needs to be moved to the feminist forum.

---

remind, your anger is palpable and appropriate, but before you beat up on anyone that was posting here before you started with this one and before we knew the further details, re-read my post two up from yours where i link the new facts to get back on topic and then discuss the misgogyny inherent in the sport. no one is having a laugh about this at all. it's not funny when anyone dies, particularly in this case.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michelle:
Yeah, most of us did do the thread drift thing in this one and got talking about other wrestlers, etc.

Time to get back on topic. And yeah, I'll move this to the feminism forum.

---

already done. perhaps now this is in the feminist forum, could there be some commentary on the questions i asked relating to violent pro sports and can athletes just turn that off when thyey go home, and the interesting information john_d posted related to the labour practices and how they affect the women in the industry?

quote:

---

Originally posted by farnival:
already done. perhaps now this is in the feminist forum, could there be some commentary on the questions i asked relating to violent pro sports and can athletes just turn that off when thyey go home, and the interesting information john_d posted related to the labour practices and how they affect the women in the industry?

both of our posts appear to have been ignored.

---

Frankly farnival, it is just not about women in the industry that John mentioned, it was primarily how the men were treated. As far as I am concerned, they, be it the males or females, involved can walk away if they don't like it. It is greed and the drive to be famous motivating them quite obviously, or they would not be tolerating it.

WWE would soon go away if no one wrestled for them, eh?! Even faster if everyone viewing it boycotted them. How progressives can even watch that violent misogynistic crap is beyond me.

Moreover, as far as I am concerned, this is NOT about wrestling and the other wrestlers, nor the poor labour practices this is about a woman being bound and murdered, and the child being smothered, by someone whom they should have been able to trust.

As for those who participate in violent sports not being able to leave it at work, I would say they are there because they are violent. Moreover, there are plently of other male athletes in sports, which are not violent, who have beaten and killed their wives, or girlfriends.

This incident like those others, is about power and control by men of women in the patriarchial world that we live in.

If you want to discuss poor labour practices in the WWE start another thread about that please.

[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: remind ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:

...If you want to discuss poor labour practices in the WWE start a thread about that pleasse.

---

frankly remind, this was already in another thread that could have discussed the poor labour practices as they affected the men and women involved, as well as the issue of violent sports, and the issue of a man murdering his wife and child as related to those two issues as was initially being discussed. And this discussion was moved at your urging to the feminist thread, where now at your diktat, these things can no longer be discussed apparently and has now, because of you getting angry at the other aspects of this issue has been derailed/ended.

Too bad. Perhaps Michelle could move this back to the original place and you, remind, could start a new thread discussing the specifically feminist angles/implications of this issue, allowing for the original discussion to continue without you slagging the rest of us, or more specifically, me.

[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: farnival ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bubbles:
Michelle,

Care to explain why you moved this to the feminism collum? Seems to me that the case is still under investigation. Are we to automatically blame men? Comes across as somewhat sexist in my view. It is not an issue that lends itself to be resolved by one sided analises.

---

She moved it because she was asked to.

The case is still be investigated but it has been investigated far enough for the police to STATE PUBLICALLY, it was a murders suicide situation.

What kind of other side analysis do you want bubbles? By asking the question about automatically blaming the man, surely you are not suggesting that she brought this on herself? Cause it sure sounds like it!

It is here in the feminist forum for a reason. And your comments come as sexist frankly! And again women are having to defend actions and statements.

[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: remind ]

I completely agree with this position, and I believe that it can be extended to the physical and mental damage that patriarchy inflicts upon men, especially through its encouragement of hypermasculinity and its contempt for men's vulnerability. Professional sports--that is, corporate sports--play a crucial role in this malignant socialization process, as demonstrated very effectively in Varda Burstyn's The Rites of Men: Manhood, Politics, and the Culture of Sport.

I believe that patriarchy is responsible for men's very high suicide rates, our rates of violent death, our willingness to mutilate ourselves and others through careers in sports and the military, and our general emotional impoverishment.

There's nothing wrong with what farnival posted - it's well within the bounds of discussion in the feminism forum, particularly the part about how the violence of pro-wrestling reinforces patriarchy. remind, I understand you're passionate about this subject, but you really need to leave the moderating to the moderators, and not fly off the handle at every perceived slight. People can talk about different aspects of this case than you, as long as it does not silence the feminists in the discussion.

quote:

---

Originally posted by farnival:
frankly remind, this was already in another thread that could have discussed the poor labour practices as they affected the men and women involved...

---

I agree with farnival. The point of the OP here was to look at the creepy premature death of yet another wrestler and the possibility of steroids playing a part. I don't think it's fair to silence the posters here and change the substance of this thread by moving it, when a new thread discussing this tragedy from a feminist POV could just have easily been created in the FF.

oops crossposted with michelle

[ 27 June 2007: Message edited by: Polly Brandybuck ]

quote:

---

Also, in cases where women kill their kids, I think in a lot of cases it's also something about the patriarchal society we're living in. Women who kill their kids because they think their boyfriends won't want kids, women who kill their kids because they're suffering from post-partum depression and their asshole husbands still expect them to be wifey-for-Jesus...

---

Uh-huh. Normally, I agree with most of your posts Michelle, and I appreciate the work you do as a moderator. But this sounds like a big guilty liberal apologist weep-fest.

SO the women who kill their kids aren't to blame. They are just "victims of patriarchy." Yet when working class men pull this, well they're the "oppressors."

Sorry folks. I know this is the feminism forum. But this reasoning in any environment is just cattle compost, as far as I'm concerned.

I well know that social and economic factors play key roles in shaping behaviour, including the negative stuff. But that alone does not make violent or dishonest behaviour by people against one another condonable.

For example, this so-called "patriarchy" also appears to set often unreasonable standards and expectations on men--like having to always be the main provider and protector for the family. And when they lose their job or get injured and become disabled and can't do that anymore, they are often seen as unproductive burdens, unfortunate losers and has-beens.

I have read that this can lead to brutal violence and/or suicidal behaviour by men against their families or associates. does that make it acceptable? No, it does not, and neither should it be in the case of women who turn violent against their families.

Benoit is certainly a tragic figure now, because of what happened. But in no way do I see him as a hero.

Contrary what some others say here, Steroid use, especially in men, can lead to increased violent tendencies and anti-social behaviour—and steroids were found at the Benoit residence, indicating that they could have played a role.

Like others here, I was a pro-wrestling fan as a kid in the 60’s, when the little folks still thought it was real combat, and into the 70s, even after we knew it was stunts and tricks but still fun to watch—in the days of Gene Kiniski, Bulldog Brown, Don Leo Jonathan, Mr.X/Guy Mitchell, Dutch Savage, etc.

Back then, steroid use was uncommon. Even into the early 80s, with Hulk Hogan, Andre the Giant, Nicolai Volkov, George The Animal Steel, etc., it was still not a big practice.

Now it’s everywhere, and it seems, despite new rules, education programs and testing, far too many athletes—from Olympic sprinters to pro hockey players—seem to feel compelled to use them.

No. You just burst in here guns blazing thinking you had "caught" feminist thinking in a logical fallacy. The thing is, SA, is that you don't do gender well. So for the umpteenth time, before you come barging into this discussion all reactionary and accusatory, why don't you stop and think about what's at stake, and take the time to read the thoughtful contributions.

Truthfully, in this case, I think Benoit IS a tragic figure. Tragic because, in our patriarchal culture, he felt that he had to take steroids to be a macho man, felt that his firing from his job as a macho man meant he wasn't a macho man, felt like he had to be a macho man with his family.

When Mike Tyson was busy beating his wife, I also thought that he was a product of this patriarchal culture.

Does it mean that everyone reacts to our patriarchal culture the same way? No. Not everyone has such extreme dysfunction in their lives or their psyches or whatever. But for those who do, it's our society that informs it and feeds it. And our society is patriarchal.

When working class men who are oppressed by the capitalist system, and are expected to be alpha males or be no one, take this to heart and become abusive at home (because they can't meet the expectations), then yes, this is a systemic problem. When have I ever been the type of person to blame everything on the individual person who commits a crime, violent or otherwise?

When feminists rail against patriarchy, we're railing against a system, not individual men. We're railing against a system that informs everyone, women AND men. But it's true - we're also railing against individual men who refuse to see patriarchy, perhaps because it is too threatening to admit how all men, IN DIFFERENT WAYS, benefit from the patriarchal system. Obviously, men with class and skin privilege benefit more, and in different ways, than working class men, or men of colour, do. But you know, even working class men benefit from patriarchy in certain ways - just ask the working class women who are oppressed by them.

But as Tommy and remind were discussing in another thread - it's not overly useful for feminists to tell working class men that they're the oppressor, when working class men are obviously oppressed as well. That doesn't mean, though, that working class men are exempt from trying to understand how our patriarchal system works, and how it affects women.

quote:

---

Originally posted by farnival:
i have been giving this subject alot of thought, driven by remind's passion on the subject of violence against women, and i think this is a vital aspect of this discussion and i am pleased in some aspects that this has been moved here to the feminist forum,

---

farnival, my apologies if you think I was slagging you, I wasn't intenionally doing so, I respect you a good deal as a poster here. Though I will admit I have no patience when I perceive that men, again as always, want to make this about them, or when they try to blame something other than the men who are at fault in keeping society patriarchial, such as steriod use or belonging to violent sports, as being at fault when women have a violent act committed against them.

It has always seemed to me as if providing excuses is escaping responsibility, and then to express horror is tokenism, as the truth is, sub-consciously, or perhaps even consciously, they, the men, are willing to let a small number of women die in order for their privilege continue.

quote:

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but think it might possibly sideline some of the issues myself and john_d, and now michael have brought up from a male perspective.

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It would never do to have male perspective sidelined. I know that will come across as snarky, but in fact it isn't, it is a statement of truth. Just maybe this time perhaps men will get it.

quote:

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i think i will start a new thread with a slightly different angle, as i think that while this subject was brought to the fore by the wrestler's murder/suicide, there is a bigger picture that i'd like to hear from other babblers on

---

Please do, I know I would certainly love to read how hard done by males are, and how their patriarchial system in the bigger picture oppresses them against their will. Again not snarky just interested. Perhaps men will finally get that their desire for privilege, kills women, and then perhaps even and to some extent, themselves.

I see the bigger picture you speak about, have done so for years, but perhaps I am a bit jaded as I see men's lack of desire to give up their privilege embodied by the lack of action in real life to change it. The benefits of privilege outweigh the risks, so to speak, for many in my view, and discussing it gives them the appearance within themselves, and to some extent externally, they are doing something, when in fact they aren't.

quote:

---

everyone might be interested in Antonia Zerbisias' column today in the Star: Experts say they're preventable, yet 'femicides' continue

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Thanks for the article farnival it says much. In particular these things stuck out for me.

quote:

---

There's little chance of getting out, once you're in.

... we do know it will happen again. And again. And again.

In the end, only one thing needs to "suddenly snap" and that's the outrage.

---

Further, these acts of murder against women, actually keep women in violent relationships, pretty hard to leave when you know you have a choice to either to continue to be abused, or to get dead, eh?!

Perhaps the younger women here, who are still tolerant of the endless male discourse, with no action, will be tired of it after a couple of decades of listening to it too.

[ 27 June 2007: Message edited by: remind ]

This strikes me as overgeneralizing. Certainly, most men don't think twice about the privilege they enjoy in patriarchal societies, but this doesn't mean that all men are equally comfortable with this injustice, and it doesn't mean that all the men who are involved in what you refer to as the endless male discourse on this board are apathetic about this injustice. There are also degrees of awareness and commitment among progressive men about these issues: some men are only marginally involved in change, while others are on the front lines of change.

Similarly, most non-Aboriginal Canadians don't think twice about the privilege they enjoy as colonial peoples, but that doesn't mean that all non-Aboriginal Canadians are comfortable with colonial injustices. Of those non-Aboringal Canadians who oppose this injustice, there are also degrees of awareness and commitment.

Consider that the stance you take towards men might just as easily be taken by colonized peoples towards non-Aboriginal peoples. If you are a non-Aboriginal person, then the same criticism that you direct towards men could be directed towards you by someone who didn't care to find out more about you as a person and your own level of awareness and commitment to fighting injustice.

Please remember that there are men on this board who have suffered because of patriarchy. Most haven't suffered as much as women have, but there are men who have been beaten by other men for perceived effiminacy and who have been terrified of what may befall them for violating patriarchal codes of conduct. Some men have been killed because of this. Most men who defy patriarchal norms find themselves socially excluded and stigmatized to one degree or another. There are men who have made painful sacrifices to confront patriarchy. You don't know whether or not this includes any of the men who participate in discussions on babble.

remind, thank you for the post, though the reason we clearly need another thread to talk about this issue from a male perspective is articulated astutely by michael above.

there are many of us men who, through dint of being born male, have been ostracised, harmed, punished, and yes, killed, by the very patriarchal system you rightly rail against, and work every minute of our lives to change that and try to prevent the tragedies like this thread is based on. It is mighty discouraging, as michael has pointed out, when, thinking you are among natural allies in that cause, you are shut out or berated by those percieved allies for "not getting it" simply because of our gender and associated "entitlement" that i never asked for to begin with, or told that we are just talking to make ourselves feel better and like we are doing something, but really aren't.

now before you get all excited and angry that i'm boo hooing for being a man, stop and think. three of us have posted thoughtful words about this issue addressing and furthering the discussion that is, as michelle pointed out, fully within the acceptable range of discussion in the feminist forum. i was raised by very strong women who taught me that violence in any form is wrong, there is no such thing as women's or men's work or roles, there are is just work and things that need to get done. and most importantly, when you let your anger cloud your judgment you have lost your way. anger is a valuable tool to spur action to change things for the positive. but it can also push away like minded people, and yes these can be men, that want to work to the same common goal of an end to this system that oppresses people, and women and children in particular. no, remind, i am not patronising you. rather i, and the other men michael refers to are on your side and ready to fight with you for as long as it takes. even if you don't want our help.

[ 27 June 2007: Message edited by: farnival ]

farnival, I may have appreciated everything you have said but you extinguished that appreciation with your second comment. You have dared to speak for me, precluding what I would've said to michael, and then inferred that I would not understand.

quote:

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Originally posted by farnival:
though i'm not sure remind will agree, or even understand what you are talking about.

---

perhaps we can get back on a better footing some other time and place.

[ 27 June 2007: Message edited by: farnival ]

quote:

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Originally posted by farnival:
well i was about to edit it out, realising it would generate the response it just has, thus shuting out any dialogue once again. remind, i wasn't speaking for you, and never would presume or want to. i was speculating based on experience debating/discussing issues with you and your well known style, and after reading it again, could see right away the error of including it. i do think that is the case and you have confirmed it for me, so i do apologise if it has put a wrench in things, as did your comment that michael noted, that was directed at me, in the same fashion you dislike now.

perhaps we can get back on a better footing some other time and place.

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quote:

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Originally posted by remind:

Perhaps not!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:
All right, can we get past this? Does every discussion have to get into a big meta thing about how you said this about me and then I said this and then you said that? It gets so boring to have to read that in every discussion. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells just READING these discussions, trying to figure out what people are going to pick out of this post or that one and take offense over.

Can we just assume the best of each other and think, hey, maybe she didn't mean it that way, or maybe he didn't mean that in the worst possible light? Everyone is engaging in this kind of nitpicking in this thread, and it seems to have become one of the less savoury aspects of babble culture. Can we get over this?

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I'd really like for babble to be less like that. People pounce all over each other's posts, looking for gotchas and things to be offended over and blow up into a big argument. It makes this place intimidating and not very pleasant at times. Can't we show a little bit of charity to each other and not always assume the worst about what others are posting?

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Originally posted by farnival:
that's why i learned to generally avoid this forum michelle, and was dissapointed that it was moved here. this wasn't happening until it moved. and i knew it would, because as you point out, it always does. i don't know what to suggest. i keep trying to bring the conversation back to the topic, but to no avail. i am officially at a loss and will return to the other forums where this happens less frequently.

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Oh puleeeze!
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Michelle, quite obviously this forum has no use for feminist's, or even women's voices that speak against the established system present here. It always becomes about how we are preventing males from having the voice that it is all about them. Well, in a way it is about them, it is always about them and they will find a way to make it so, while blaming the woman.

[ 27 June 2007: Message edited by: remind ]

[ 27 June 2007: Message edited by: farnival ]

As for Remind, well, reading her stuff on these matters is like reading about a spoiled brat in a bad surrealistic comic strip, like the Fabulous Freak Brothers. Nuff said.

Catchfire:

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You just burst in here guns blazing thinking you had "caught" feminist thinking in a logical fallacy.

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No, you got it wrong. I burst in here guns blazing over what I had interpreted as a statement apologizing for people who kill their kids, not about having "caught" anything about feminism. That’s what I was referring to when I used the term “cattle compost,” not anything about patriarchy.

Michelle:

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Honestly, I don't think it's any more acceptable for women to kill their children than it is for men.

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I'm pretty sure you don't Michelle. My response was more influenced by the apologistic statements on a variety of subjects out there made by various posters than by how I view you and your sentiments.

I guess it was somewhat of an over-reaction, and should have been more "moderated."

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But we all live in a patriarchal society, so it stands to reason that this is what informs both women AND men when they act out in whatever dysfunctional way.

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This is I guess, true. And I’ll be the first to admit I’m no expert on the subject of “patriarchy.” I do have some experience, both positive and negative, with feminist politics of various kinds. Some of it I agree with wholeheartedly. Some not at all.

However, I’m pretty confident that I know quite a bit about class and economics and the oppression that influences all sorts of negative behaviour in both men and women, and, in the more extreme cases, drives them cuckoo and can lead to the type of violence we saw the other day with Benoit (or school shootings, murder-suicides, etc.).

SO I’m not disagreeing with the fact that social and economic factors contribute, in various ways and to various degrees, creating this criminal, violent and anti-social behaviour.

But I get cautious when you say:

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Do I feel sorry for men who commit these crimes? Do I feel sorry for Chris Benoit? Yeah, I do. I think they're victims of patriarchy as well as instruments of it.

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I don’t think these folks necessarily deserve that much pity. It’s true that they are negatively influenced by class and capitalistic oppressive pressure that, when added to depression, trauma or mental or biological disorders, can create real walking time bombs.

Benoit obviously was using steroids largely because lots of people in his profession do to gain an advantage—greater agility and strength serve to make a better show.

But the fact is all of us are victims to varying degree of that class oppression, stress, insecurity and the building up of rage. And lots of people have all kinds of medical and mental problems that can add to it. It doesn’t result in that type of violent act. The fact is Benoit, unless he is insane some how, is still responsible for his actions as an adult—even an oppressed one. The main victims here are his wife and kids who had their lives cut short for no good reason; not him.

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It doesn't just happen in this forum. It happens all over babble. It happens in the Middle East threads, it happens in the economic discussions, it happens in the feminism forum. This isn't just about feminism. This is about something that happens on babble regularly, and it's not just feminists who engage in it. It isn't just women feminists who engaged in it in this thread, even.

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You are right, Michelle. And it doesn't just happen on this site either. I was invited to check out the Bread and Roses site recently, and I have been on Enmasse from time to time. I also remember the days on Canada.com and the now-defunct CBC forums (and of course that Nazi horror show the Freaky domination site--where I got kicked off three times for injecting unwanted fact into "discussions").

It seems to happen on all of these open-ended anonymous blog sites, where people discuss things largely in abstract, with people they will likely never meet and get know or work with on anything practical. Add to this, these sites, no matter how many subscribers or members they have, end up being dominated by a relatively small group of people who comment consistently on everything, with a few occasional posters wading in at times, thereby often making the conversations more personal yet still anonymous, which seems to create a lot of intense vitriol as people seem to use each other to vent frustration, rather than carry on informed debate. And, yep, I’m obviously not immune to this either.

Actually in comparison, especially to Canada.com and the Freaky domination, the Rabble.ca is not too bad this way. But it’s still the same type of media, therefore it still has many of the same type of problems.

It's to be expected that discussions about patriarchal violence will evoke passionate responses from women, in the same way that discussions about racist violence will evoke passionate responses from Blacks and homophobic violence will evoke passionate responses from GLBT people. Even if those responses are sometimes unfair, I think that it's important to respect the heart they're coming from. This kind of violence is terrifying and infuriating for its intended victims, and the significance of those emotions shouldn't be minimized. Benoit committed a horrific crime, and the WWE's decision to offer him a televised tribute was both misogynistic and macabre. I'm very disturbed by this. If I were a woman, I would be boiling over.

I'm sorry if I sound preachy, but I've been struggling with this issue for awhile, and what I've just written is directed to myself as much as to you.

In the hope of helping to get this thread back on track, I've opened a thread about the negative effects of patriarchal violence on men in the Culture forum. If anyone's interested in this subject, we can discuss it over there, and continue the analysis of the violence directed by Benoit towards his wife and child, as well as its social implications, here.

[ 27 June 2007: Message edited by: Michael Nenonen ]

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Originally posted by Steppenwolf Allende:
As for Remind, well, reading her stuff on these matters is like reading about a spoiled brat in a bad surrealistic comic strip, like the Fabulous Freak Brothers. Nuff said.

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This is acceptable Michelle? Unreal! I am sure if he came out against your comments in such a manner instead of just taking exception to them, you would be seriously pissed.

This is a tactic to silence and marginalize the voice of women especially when they take exception to male privilege and the impacts it has upon women and children, and society at large in a strong manner.

The fact that SA does not acknowlege below in his comments anything about gender supremacy says much about where he is NOT coming from.

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But the fact is all of us are victims to varying degree of that class oppression, stress, insecurity and the building up of rage. And lots of people have all kinds of medical and mental problems that can add to it. It doesn’t result in that type of violent act. The fact is Benoit, unless he is insane some how, is still responsible for his actions as an adult—even an oppressed one. The main victims here are his wife and kids who had their lives cut short for no good reason; not him.

We as activists cannot let these factors minimize the culpability or unacceptability of this type of acting out, otherwise we are sending out a message that it’s, at least minimally, acceptable to express our rage under the system in these manners. It’s much more productive and beneficial to encourage people to express these rages against the system and its ruling elites or, better yet, apply that energy in more constructive ways, like working toward and developing practical alternatives.

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Lots of words no substance SA.
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It is becoming apparent that Benoit had his wife and child hostage for at least 2 days before he murdered them. He explained their abscence 2 days prior to their deaths as them having "food poisoning". Moreover, he killed his son the day after he murdered his wife.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
When Mike Tyson was busy beating his wife, I also thought that he was a product of this patriarchal culture.

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Mike Tyson's is a slightly different story. Tyson grew up in grinding poverty. He became a criminal and street thug early in life. Very bizarre person.

I think North America in general has tended to nurture a boyish culture among men while women tend to value and pursue higher education and improving their situations in general. I'm not sure what this has to do with the thread topic. Just an observation.

[ 28 June 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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As for Remind, well, reading her stuff on these matters is like reading about a spoiled brat in a bad surrealistic comic strip, like the Fabulous Freak Brothers. Nuff said.

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Steppenwolf, yes, that is more than "nuff said", and you know it. You knew it when you wrote it and you know it now. That's pure trolling and completely unacceptable. I've told you time and again over the last few days.

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This is acceptable Michelle? Unreal! I am sure if he came out against your comments in such a manner instead of just taking exception to them, you would be seriously pissed.

This is a tactic to silence and marginalize the voice of women especially when they take exception to male privilege and the impacts it has upon women and children, and society at large in a strong manner.

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First of all, no it's not acceptable. I haven't been back to this thread since he posted that - this is the first time I've seen it.

Secondly, yes, I would be pissed if he wrote something like that about me, but frankly, you are quite often blowing up at people on babble, and SA has a tendency to do the same thing, and this is a flame war between two people who have a habit of doing that. Sorry, remind, but I don't think you're being silenced - far from it - and I don't think your manner of handling opposition to your point of view on babble is very constructive, even when you're absolutely correct. That doesn't mean I condone what he has said. It means that you are ALSO contributing to the hostile tone around here, along with him. At some point when it seems you're getting into fights with many people on a discussion forum on a regular basis, you have to maybe ask yourself what YOU might be contributing to that dynamic. It's not always everyone else's fault all the time.

You are not above the rules on babble. One of those rules goes like this:

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You agree to avoid personal insults, attacks and mischievous antagonism (otherwise known as "trolling"). You will not post material that is inaccurate, abusive, hateful, harassing, obscene, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy or otherwise violative of any law.

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Another of those rules goes like this:

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Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to do the following:

- e-mail [email protected]; (or michelleATrabbleDOTca or oldgoatATrabbleDOTca)
- in the body of the e-mail, include the title of the thread where the post is found, the URL for the thread, and a copy of the post you are complaining about.

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Investigators had not yet discovered the bodies of pro wrestler Chris Benoit, his wife and their 7-year-old son when someone altered Benoit's Wikipedia entry to mention his wife's death, authorities said.

Authorities said Thursday they are trying to determine who altered the entry on the collaborative reference site 14 hours before authorities discovered the bodies of the couple and their son.

Benoit's Wikipedia entry was altered early Monday to say the wrestler had missed a match two days earlier because of his wife's death.

A Wikipedia official, Cary Bass, said the entry was made by someone using an Internet protocol address registered in Stamford, Conn., where World Wrestling Entertainment is based.

An IP address, a unique series of numbers carried by every machine connected to the Internet, does not necessarily have to be broadcast from where it is registered. The bodies were found in Benoit's home in suburban Atlanta, and it's not known where the posting was sent from, Bass said.

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Originally posted by Bacchus:
The Toronto Star mentioned that the kids in the neighbourhood told reporters about the spousal violence but that the parents of these kids knew nothing

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Interesting article in Salon on anabolic steroids. The focus of the article is the body-building scene, but there's lots that's applicable here.

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Steroids can also flick switches in the user's mind, altering personalities and inciting overly aggressive behavior, commonly called "'roid rage." Diane Williams says she was sexually voracious during her steroid cycles; professor Todd says that steroids can act as a triggering mechanism for violent behavior. Last year, a Sports Illustrated article reported on the unusual number of bodybuilders behind bars for homicide: Bertil Fox, a former Mr. Universe, is incarcerated for the murders of his girlfriend and his girlfriend's mother. California bodybuilder John Riccardi awaits execution for a double homicide. Another California muscleman, Gordon Kimbrough, is serving 27 years to life for the murder of his fiance. A female strength prodigy, Sally McNeil, is serving a life sentence for the murder of her bodybuilder husband.

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Anabolic steroid use is virtually universal amongst bodybuilders.

[ 02 July 2007: Message edited by: Sineed ]