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Originally posted by scooter:
Are there any employers left in the city that can get away with paying minimum wage?

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I'm pretty sure that's the going rate for Conservative Party strategists.

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Originally posted by scooter:

Hehehe...no wonder Ralph had to bring back Rod Love.

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Originally posted by RealityBites:

I'm pretty sure that's the going rate for Conservative Party strategists.

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Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:

Oh Please. Like they're hiring Calgarians.

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Originally posted by Wicked Chicken:

The Superstore on Macleod Trail is unionized (UFCW) so that probably has an impact on the starting wage.

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As far as I know, all of them are.

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Originally posted by Wicked Chicken:
You can be sure that all serving staff at bars, restaurants and fast food outlets are making minimum wage...

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Originally posted by Fidel:
The three most conservative western nations have the highest percentage of workers earning less than 65 percent of the median wage.

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Originally posted by Gir Draxon:

What a tragedy. We should have a nation where EVERYONE can afford to drive an SUV and live in suburban super-sprawl

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Never mind SUV's, how about more living wage jobs for Canadian's ?. In the 13.25 years before FTA, Canada created over 3 million full time payroll jobs. In the 13.25 years after FTA was signed, about 1 380 000 full-time payroll jobs were created. And we have more people now than then, but the participation rate in the Canadian economy has dropped since the 1970's. Pathetic you say, Gir?. And our exports of energy, fossil fuels and raw materials to the States has never been greater. Industry Canada says our economic performance during that period was probably the worst among 25 other developed nations. SUV's Gir ?.

If something is doing harm to the environment, then tax it or price it out of range. No need to have Canadian's living 50 percent below the poverty line while we're the second largest exporter of oil to the States next to Saudi Arabia. Perhaps, though, it's advantageous for rich Canadian's and foreign investors if wages are low and unemployment high. It's called insulating the wealthy from free market forces while people on web sites make dark comments to justify political impotence on the Canadian economy.

~ "Never let the colonies make so much as a hair pin." - Benjamin Disraeli

[ 08 July 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by Rufus Polson:

What it's reasonable to expect and what certain rah-rah types have been claiming are not necessarily the same thing. Nam didn't say he was surprised--he was saying that his anecdotal evidence contradicts the claims put forward with no evidence at all, that jobs are always $8.50 or more.
Now you may not have said that, in which case you might surmise that he's not arguing with you.

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The claim that any idiot can come to Alberta and get a great paying job with no qualifications and minimal effort is BS.

One person might be able to exist on 5.90 an hour (ifthey get close to full time) but to provide for their whole family on that would be impossible without constantly relying on foodbanks and other (failing) safety nets. Not to mention that every time a worker has to rely on such social support to get by, the public is subsidizing said worker's employer.

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Originally posted by Gir Draxon:
What I disagree with is acting as if this fact is somehow a tragedy. As a farily inexperienced cook, I don't really expect to make more than $10/hour. Now someone can exist on $5.90/hour full time in Alberta. It's hard, but possible. I don't see why any capable person who lacks the ambition to do something more challenging than cleaning a deep fryer should be entitled to the same standard of living as me after I get a better education and a job with qualifications more extensive than having a pulse and showing up for work.

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Conservatives in New Zealand put a similar choke-hold on the economy there after pointing to an imaginary monetary crisis and labour was given the gate. College and university tuition fees soared along with unemployment rates under conservative government in NZ, and young people left the country in droves for freely accessable education in Europe and elsewhere. I tell kids the same thing today, "Get the hell out of Canada, go see the world. Have some fun, but mainly, get the hell out of Canada."

[ 10 July 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by Doug:

Speaking of whom...what a GREAT gay porn star name that would be.

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Canada has a history of raiding skilled workers from other countries instead of investing in Canadian's. In the past, the feds have made it easy for machinists, tool and dye designers from Britain to take jobs in Canada; we've imported bricklayers, concrete finishers and plumbers from Italy and Spain, engineers from Germany and so on. Canada has a tradition of neglecting the needs of Canadian workers, and that's the reality of the situation. I think it's entirely unnecessary to blame Canada's youth for not having anything more to choose from than what is the second or third largest low wage economy in the developed world. Not when university and college tuition fees have skyrocketed over the last several years in direct comparison with how easy it was to obtain a degree in the 1970's.

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For many, it seems the options are either low wages or to go to school to learn the skills for high paying jobs but having to pay back debt for a long time. Not very pleasant.

On the topic of education, columnist Thomas Friedman recently commented on Ireland. Friedman is a staunch advocate of free market capitalism, yet he praised the Irish for providing accessible education.

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Ireland's turnaround began in the late 1960's when the government made secondary education free, enabling a lot more working-class kids to get a high school or technical degree. As a result, when Ireland joined the E.U. in 1973, it was able to draw on a much more educated work force.

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I think there are ways in which we could create wealth while at the same time, curbing consumption. Economic growth doesn't necessarily have to mean increased consumption of non-renewable, finite resources. We don't have to poison the planet, but I'm afraid that old world colonialism will have a difficult time letting go of this comparative wealth-based system we've always had in one form or another. People are critical of Ronal Wright's opinions on the collapse of societies throughout history. But what I find true of Wright's commentary is that the wealth gap between rich and poor has never been as wide as it is now. And those societies that existed to concentrate wealth and power in the hands of the few always seemed to create an irrepairable crisis within by consuming more and making a mess of their agricultural situations. Either that or the poor eventually caught on to the fact that they needed to work harder and longer for the sake of making the rich richer. Revolution or catastrophe.

So with Canada owning one of the largest low wage, low skill job sectors in the developed world, I think we can expect the centres for science and technology to shift gradually to what were traditionally the largest economies in the world in Asia and Europe. Asia will become the largest economy again in the coming decades while we in the west try to revive failed laissez-faire capitalism after several spectacular failures in Chile, Argentina and now Africa and Russia. We're seeing it now, imo.

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There were no jobs in Toronto for new graduates. Headlines were pronouncing liberal arts degrees as “useless” and PhDs were driving cabs. I packed up my stuff and moved back home to Winnipeg. I joined the staff of the Winnipeg Harvest food bank and soon started to see the impact of the job-scarce economy, up close and personal.

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And Reagan waged war on the working poor in his country and Latin America. The rich began noticing the working class slobs treading on the best beaches of the world during their well-earned vacations.

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Originally posted by Gir Draxon:

The unionization of course has both advantages and disadvantages. It brings slightly higher starting wages, but poisons the work atmosphere and severely limits advancement of newer employees.

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Originally posted by Nam:

What??? Poisons the work atmosphere??? Is this statement simply regurgitating the myth of how unions just bring trouble into the workplace? How does a union limit advancement of newer employees? I, and I'm sure others, wait for the answers.

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To begin with, union environments tend to focus on seniority rather than merit with regards to promotions.

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Originally posted by Nam:

What??? Poisons the work atmosphere??? Is this statement simply regurgitating the myth of how unions just bring trouble into the workplace? How does a union limit advancement of newer employees?

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My comments are based on my experience in labour/service oriented jobs. Trade unions are likely a different story.

What these people who bash unions never let on is that they were always free to join the private sector and give up their union wage rate. They were entirely free to negotiate their worth with the thousand dollar suits in the private sector. Nobody in the union holds a gun to your head. No sir, the private sector was always there for your enjoyment.

[ 11 July 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Canada and the States have the lowest rates of unionized workforce along with the highest rates of child poverty

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Hmmmm. Lets compare what we consider to be child poverty in Canada with what I have seen in Cuba.

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Originally posted by C.Morgan:

Hmmmm. Lets compare what we consider to be child poverty in Canada with what I have seen in Cuba.

I think that we are doing alright.

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I dunno, Morg. Check our native infant mortality rates in Northern communities against Cuba's. I think Nunuvut has touched the 15 per 1000 mark at some point. There are over 5000 people in my N. Ontario hometown who have no family doctor. The Cuban's have more physicians per capita than any other western nation. Our socialized medicine is being short-changed by liberal and conservative governments right now so that fine Canadian's like yourself will be highly suggestable to privatisation of health services and other gimmicks designed to blow our minds and allow foreigners to pick our pockets.

[ 11 July 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by C.Morgan:
Hmmmm. Lets compare what we consider to be child poverty in Canada with what I have seen in Cuba.

I think that we are doing alright.

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Originally posted by Gir Draxon:
But in the unionized places where I have worked, it isn't how hard you work or how good you are that determines advancement.

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[ 11 July 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

If I am not mistaken, we were not speaking of the USA but Canada.

You are predictible if nothing else.

Kids in Cuba may not have wireless Nintendo or have the choice to be prematurely obese from eating McCrap, but they can see a doctor if and when they need to, unlike poor American kids and those in Canada's northern communities. Cuban kids aren't considered to be just another market for plastic throw-away widgets or human waste disposals for capitalism.

[ 12 July 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Ok, I will. Thanks to socialized medicine in Canada, and in spite of the fact that we are pumping the second greatest amount of oil to the States, next to Saudi Arabia year-in year-out, Canada has a better infant mortality rate than the Yanks do while they spend more on health care than anyone else in the world. And so does the politically isolated island of Cuba have an infant mortality lower than that of the most privatised, most expensive health care system in the world. Kids in Cuba are happy, Morg. They're not so happy in El Salvador or any of the other shitholes off Uncle Sam's back doorstep.

Kids in Cuba may not have wireless Nintendo or have the choice to be prematurely obese from eating McCrap, but they can see a doctor if and when they need to, unlike poor American kids and those in Canada's northern communities. Cuban kids aren't considered to be just another market for plastic throw-away widgets or human waste disposals for capitalism.

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Guess all that happiness is what drives them to sniff all that glue eh?

You ever notice all the baggies in the gutters in the residential areas Fidel?

It must be all that happiness that drives them to risk their lives to cross the ocean on rickety boats to seek refuge in other countries too.

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Originally posted by C.Morgan:
You ever notice all the baggies in the gutters in the residential areas Fidel?

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But you've got enough homeless people in Calgary to start another town, Morg. All that all oil/gas and old Ralph had to empty the Heritage Fund to look good. Krist, socialist Norway was a net creditor nation years ago, and their oil is more expensive to drill than Leduc. Where in the hell has all the money gone out there, hockey players ?. Moose pasture, Morg ?.

That's right, Aristotleded24, Havana used to be a haven for drug traficking, gambling and child sex for well-heeled tourists. Morg must be confusing Havana with a ten day drunk he had in Santo Domingo. Wrong island altogether there, Morg.

[ 12 July 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by Fidel:
I've been to Havana, shitforbrains. I doubt you've been anywhere farther south than the farmers market.

But you've got enough homeless people in Calgary to start another town, Morg. All that all oil/gas and old Ralph had to empty the Heritage Fund to look good. Krist, socialist Norway was a net creditor nation years ago, and their oil is more expensive to drill than Leduc. Where in the hell has all the money gone out there, hockey players ?. Moose pasture, Morg ?.

That's right, Aristotleded24, Havana used to be a haven for drug traficking, gambling and child sex for well-heeled tourists. Morg must be confusing Havana with a ten day drunk he had in Santo Domingo. Wrong island altogether there, Morg.

[ 12 July 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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That must explain all those Calgarian kids getting on boats for Cuba eh?

Get real Fidel. You are living in a dream world if you think that any level of Canadian poverty comes even close to the levels that exist in the "worker's paradise" of Cuba which you view with rose colored glasses.

For further referrence for you, may I suggest you seek how many people were climbing the Berlin wall to get to the East side when they were communist.

Here's an idea. You and your chums down at the Legion should save your haying money and take a road trip through Mexico, Belize, Guatemala, El Salvador. Maybe your gas money will last til Honduras before you get diarrhea and wanna go home to dum, mad and the dog. And while you're driving the Pan-Am highway chatting with armed soldiers at road blocks and watching out for bandits, have a look around at the children and the haunted look in their eyes. Have a good look around, amigo. Come back here and tell us what you know besides nothing.

[ 12 July 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

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Originally posted by C.Morgan:
That must explain all those Calgarian kids getting on boats for Cuba eh?

Get real Fidel. You are living in a dream world if you think that any level of Canadian poverty comes even close to the levels that exist in the "worker's paradise" of Cuba which you view with rose colored glasses.

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In the case of the whole boat situation, there is an inherent anti-Cuba bias in American media. Cuba nationalised operations under the control of American companies and basically told the United States to take a hike, and the American business establishment has never forgiven him. Given that American media outlets are owned by major American corporations, they are not going to do Cuba any favours. I remember when Elian Gonzales was in the news, and the argument for keeping the child away from his father was effectively that his Miami relatives didn't like Castro. That country has survived despite being shunned by the US and being stung by the collapse of their largest trading partner, the former USSR. (Organic agriculture, anyone?) The fact that Cuba survived that shows resilience in a time when many countries are fracturing and losing their way. I don't like Castro personally, I think he's an authoritarian thug, but he's an authoritarian thug who provides health care to all of his people.

As for the levels of child poverty in Canada approaching Cuba's? Have you been to any First Nations communities in Labrador, Manitoba, or the North? These people do not have basic essentials-they live in Third World type poverty right here in Canada. Fidel, you asked how many people cannot afford a greyhoud ticket, how about being able to eat? You said you've been both to Cuba and many of the types of communities I've just described. Has C.Morgan been there and experienced anything that would refute your assertions?

[ 12 July 2005: Message edited by: Aristotleded24 ]

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Do you realize how many Canadian's and American's there are who can't afford a greyhound bus ticket to the next province or state, never mind another country ?. I've worked in northern communities and with native Canadian's who'd think Cuba really is a paradise, tractor boy. 1500 without a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of, right there in Calgary, diesel breath.

Here's an idea. You and your chums down at the Legion should save your haying money and take a road trip through Mexico, Belize, Guatemala, El Salvador. Maybe your gas money will last til Honduras before you get diarrhea and wanna go home to dum, mad and the dog. And while you're driving the Pan-Am highway chatting with armed soldiers at road blocks and watching out for bandits, have a look around at the children and the haunted look in their eyes. Have a good look around, amigo. Come back here and tell us what you know besides nothing.

[ 12 July 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Tractor boy? Diesel breath? Man now, you really are sad. You sure hate facts getting in the way of your flawed faith in communism don't you?

I have been through Mexico and Guatemala by the way. I don't doubt that those impoverished Albertans you refer to are scrambling to get there either.

I was lucky enough to tour the Soviet Union in my youth as well. I was part of a ski jumping team and I must admit that there is no better experience than travel. Rest assured that we had no North American defectors eager to stay in the communist countries no matter how awesome they were to tour.

If you really think that things in Alberta are nearing the bad levels that we can see in third world nations, may I suggest that you adjust your dose of medication.

Lets look at some of the other aspects of Cuba however aside from their widespread poverty.

How about human rights?

Human Rights Watch

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Tractor boy? Diesel breath? Man now, you really are sad. You sure hate facts getting in the way of your flawed faith in communism don't you?

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So someone who believes that no-one should be without essentials is a communist? Oh wait, isn't there an expression that goes like, "when I feed the poor, they call me a saint when I ask why so many are poor they call me a communist?"

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I was lucky enough to tour the Soviet Union in my youth as well. I was part of a ski jumping team and I must admit that there is no better experience than travel. Rest assured that we had no North American defectors eager to stay in the communist countries no matter how awesome they were to tour.

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Nor do tourists who come here to travel defect to Canada in large numbers. That point is irrelevant.

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If you really think that things in Alberta are nearing the bad levels that we can see in third world nations, may I suggest that you adjust your dose of medication.

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You have not addressed any of either Fidel's or my own points about the deplorable conditions on many First Nations in Canada.

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Lets look at some of the other aspects of Cuba however aside from their widespread poverty.

How about human rights?

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So someone who believes that no-one should be without essentials is a communist?

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No, I am calling Fidel a communist. Look up his past postings.

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Nor do tourists who come here to travel defect to Canada in large numbers. That point is irrelevant

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How many tourists do we see from the few remaining communist countries?

When I used to jump, the jumpers from the Soviet countries were allowed here, but it was made clear to them that their families would remain at home.

Why do all these "workers paradises" have to work so hard to keep their own people from escaping?

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You have not addressed any of either Fidel's or my own points about the deplorable conditions on many First Nations in Canada.

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Rest assured that I have discussed the state of our natives at length on other threads before.

While conditions on our reservations are deplorable, they do not even come close to matching those of third world countries.

How many third world children are offered free education, tax exemtions and business grants.

Piss poor comparision to say the least.

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Did I not call Castro an "authoritarian thug" in my last post?

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How many tourists do we see from the few remaining communist countries?

When I used to jump, the jumpers from the Soviet countries were allowed here, but it was made clear to them that their families would remain at home.

Why do all these "workers paradises" have to work so hard to keep their own people from escaping?

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Well, in the former communist countries, corruption is now running rampant, and many believe they were better off under communism. Many people who come here from those countries are women bought and sold in the sex trade.

I never thought of the communist countries as "workers paradises." What the main problem in those countries was the concentration of power in a few hands. The communist revolutions began because of widespread oppression and poverty, unfortunately the communists ended up replacing those at the top with their own representatives and not much changed. But that's not the only way that power is concentrated. Privatisation, contracting out of government services places the decision-making capabilities in the hands of a few corporations whose goal is to make profit for their shareholders, and they are often removed from the people who their decisions affect.

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Rest assured that I have discussed the state of our natives at length on other threads before.

While conditions on our reservations are deplorable, they do not even come close to matching those of third world countries.

How many third world children are offered free education, tax exemtions and business grants.

Piss poor comparision to say the least.

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How can conditions on reserves "not even come close to matching those of third world countries" when several have infant mortality rates that match those of third world countries? What about substandard housing? Yes, those Natives who have high infant mortality rates, low literacy rates, and live in substandard housing don't recognise how gracious we are with our tax exemptions, free education, and business grants. Ungrateful bunch they are.

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The outcomes are the same as third world countries, but the opportunities certainly are not.

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No, I am calling Fidel a communist. Look up his past postings.

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You're been unwilling to directly address a single fact placed before you. What are you doing here, besides disrupting intelligent conversation?

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Originally posted by canadianpatriot:
back to the minimum wage question, I believe Min Wage in AB is under $6.00 a hour, plus people won't take those jobs, when the cost of living is so high, so there has to be some sort of incentive.

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Originally posted by canadianpatriot:
however to get a good job, education is the key.

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Originally posted by Fidel:
What does Morg say about the fact that anywhere from six to thirteen million children starve to death around the capitalist third world each and every year. It's an annual holocaust.

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Between 6 and 13 million, eh? Let's see, that's only a margin of error of +/- 116%, so the actual number could easily be zero, and still fall well within Fidel's margin of error.

Fidel, when will you give up boring everyone with your ridiculous made-up statistics and completely bogus facts.

I still remember laughing like hell when someone called you out on your ridiculous claim that the United States had somehow started forcing Haiti to export millions of tonnes of non-existent rice. You painted such a colourful picture describing Haitian babies starving, while US Marines cracked the whip, forcing Haitian peasants to load bags of rice onto conveyor belts into freighters in Port au-Prince.

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Originally posted by Aristotleded24:
It is also worth mentioning that many people in the Third World, in spite of their material poverty, experience a joy for life that most of their counterparts in the materially wealthy First World do not. Americans own 50% of the world's wealth despite constituting 6% of the worlds population, and many are quite miserable.

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Holy crap, that has got to be the most racist and condescending remark I've seen in a long time.

Yessiree, those darkies are having so much fun dancing, clapping their hands, and playing the banjo -- they don't even realise how poor they are!

When I lived in the 3rd World, I certainly did not see that kind of inexplicable unhappiness.

[ 13 July 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

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Originally posted by mellowyellow:
Holy crap, that has got to be the most racist and condescending remark I've seen in a long time.

Yessiree, those darkies are having so much fun dancing, clapping their hands, and playing the banjo -- they don't even realise how poor they are!

At the same time, we wealthy Westerners are suffering with clothes on our backs, full bellies, and roofs over our heads -- it's a spiritual poverty we suffer from, doncha' know.

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You missed my point entirely. I realise that people in the Third World suffer, and I do not for one minute advocate that anyone go without basic essentials. I know that misery exists in the Third World, yet there is also a sense of community forged in the struggle to survive, and people there, experiencing the poverty that they do, are content to simply have their basic needs met. They also accept that certain things are beyond their control, and they simply accept that, unlike us Westerners who feel we have a divine right to control every circumstance of our lives. We are a miserable bunch of people. Can you not see the problems we have with drugs, alcohol, people with psychological disorders, depression, suicides, and psychotic people who go around shooting people before shooting themselves? These problems persist despite a large number of them experiencing a material wealth that most people in the Third World can only dream of?

Oh, and I can see why you think Fidel made up those stats that he did. You can't really trust the statistics on infant mortality that come from the Central Intelligence Agency in the US now, can you?

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Originally posted by Hinterland:
I don't know; I think he has a point. Certainly, the most affluent North Americans tend to be the most ill-tempered, angry anti-social miseries you'd ever want to come across.

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Um, remind us, would you? Exactly how many of these "most affluent North Americans" have you come across?

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Huh? What?

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Originally posted by mellowyellow:
Um, remind us, would you? Exactly how many of these "most affluent North Americans" have you come across?

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Certainly given to questions of a highly personal nature, anyway.

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Even then, I don't get the relevance. I think hate-bag thought I meant the super-rich, when I'm mostly thinking of affluent middle-class people (you know, the ones who are all 'self-made' and won't stop griping.)

[ 13 July 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

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I know that misery exists in the Third World, yet there is also a sense of community forged in the struggle to survive

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Oh, you "know" this, do you? I guess a 25-year-old, sitting in front of his computer in Brandon Manitoba, with a bag of Doritos, waiting for his pogey cheque (or for mom and dad to kick him out), has the inside track on Third World misery? I should have guessed.

I wonder how many calories are in "a sense of community"? Is this "sense of community" what drives all those rampant never-ending civil wars in the Republic of Third World? Or have you just confused "sense of community" with clannishness? Even maximum security prisons have "a sense of community".

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and people there, experiencing the poverty that they do, are content to simply have their basic needs met

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At any rate you certainly seem to be content believing such an inane fantasy.

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They also accept that certain things are beyond their control, and they simply accept that, unlike us Westerners who feel we have a divine right to control every circumstance of our lives.

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That is far out, man! That is, like, totally Zen of those people! But then, you're right. Who are we Westerners to impose our control-freak trip on all those content starving, diseased people?

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We are a miserable bunch of people.

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When you say "we", what you really mean is "you".

If you're so miserable, why not take your sack-cloth and ashes, and emmigrate to the Third World. You'd finally find contentment, while tucking into your big, steaming bowl of "sense of community". I can assure you nobody is standing in your way. Bon apetit.

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Can you not see the problems we have with drugs, alcohol, people with psychological disorders, depression, suicides, and psychotic people who go around shooting people before shooting themselves?

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True, in the Third World, people generally don't go and shoot themselves -- usually someone else takes care of that for them.

So tell me, Aristotle, exactly how many of these drug-fueled, psychotic murder-suicide sprees have you personally witnessed, sitting in front of the computer in your parent's basement, in Brandon, Manitoba?

Your laughable exaggerations aside, you commit the error of extrapolating a general rule from a specific case. If the real Aristotle were alive, he'd probably tune you up good with a doric column over the head.

So, my suggestion to you, Aristotle, would be to take your sanctimonious pile of slacker horseshit, and see if anyone in the actual Third World is buying whatever it is you seem to be peddling. In addition to their "contentment", I'm sure they could also use a good laugh, as they rip your soul-patch from your lower lip, and beat you to death with your own toque.

[ 13 July 2005: Message edited by: mellowyellow ]

[ 13 July 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

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Originally posted by Hinterland:

Even then, I don't get the relevance. I think hate-bag thought I meant the super-rich, when I'm mostly thinking of affluent middle-class people (you know, the ones who are all 'self-made' and won't stop griping.)

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Oh, I see. So the "super-rich" are actually not "the most affluent North Americans"? The most affluent are actually "affluent middle-class people"?

It's all so clear now. Pass the bong, dude.

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It's a hissing, spitting, cold-hearted rage that mellowyellow (sic) seems to direct at anyone he/she/it interacts with. It's vulgar in its coarseness.

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It's a hissing, spitting, cold-hearted rage that mellowyellow (sic) seems to direct at anyone he/she/it interacts with

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Actually I'm laughing my ass off. And, no, not with you.

I can assure you, the rage is all yours.

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It's vulgar in its coarseness.

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Nope, on the wagon. Booze and hot weather don't mix well with me. I'll just have another hit off my bong (man) and wait to see what other mellow things pop up.

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Sounds like a plan.

Now, where'd we leave off in our discussion of '60s and '70s kids' TV? Or has that old horse been proverbially flogged long enough?

[ 13 July 2005: Message edited by: 'lance ]

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Oh, you "know" this, do you? I guess a 25-year-old, sitting in front of his computer in Brandon Manitoba, with a bag of Doritos, waiting for his pogey cheque (or for mom and dad to kick him out), has the inside track on Third World misery? I should have guessed.

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That is a personal attack. You have no business responding to a post by ignoring it and using my personal situation against me. You don't know the specifics of my personal situation, nor are they your business. I didn't call you a "God-freak," tree hugger, or any other such derogatory name, or suggest that you find a "real occupation," I expect the same respect for you. Back off.

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I wonder how many calories are in "a sense of community"? Is this "sense of community" what drives all those rampant never-ending civil wars in the Republic of Third World? Or have you just confused "sense of community" with clannishness? Even maximum security prisons have "a sense of community".

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Not following what you're getting at. Yes, I am well aware of the problems with the civil wars in the Third World. That has more to do with government policy than anything else.

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That is far out, man! That is, like, totally Zen of those people! But then, you're right. Who are we Westerners to impose our control-freak trip on all those content starving, diseased people?

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You missed my point completely. The point is not about contentment, it is about accepting that certain things (ie the weather, for one) are beyond one's control, so there's no sense complaining about it. Unlike Westerners who complain at every situation that doesn't go their way. Suffering from starvation and disease, on the other hand, is mainly a result of human decisions, and that is something we do have control over.

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When you say "we", what you really mean is "you".

If you're so miserable, why not take your sack-cloth and ashes, and emmigrate to the Third World. You'd finally find contentment, while tucking into your big, steaming bowl of "sense of community". I can assure you nobody is standing in your way. Bon apetit.

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Actually, when I said "we" in that context, I meant "our society." I thought that was clear.

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So tell me, Aristotle, exactly how many of these drug-fueled, psychotic murder-suicide sprees have you personally witnessed, sitting in front of the computer in your parent's basement, in Brandon, Manitoba?

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None, but I do know of people who have done drugs, drank alcohol, and have attempted to take their own lives in order to escape from what they feel as misery, and these people, by and large, have a level of material comfort that people in the Third World can only dream of.

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So, my suggestion to you, Aristotle, would be to take your sanctimonious pile of slacker horseshit, and see if anyone in the actual Third World is buying whatever it is you seem to be peddling. In addition to their "contentment", I'm sure they could also use a good laugh, as they rip your soul-patch from your lower lip, and beat you to death with your own toque.

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What are you trying to say? I am well aware that people in the Third World are often short of material essentials. Yet, I also know that they find joy in life that many people in North America do not. I know this because I have talked to people who have gone there. Are there things I don't know? Yes. If I were to go to the Third World, I would attempt to learn as much about what people experience as possible. I'm open to learning from other people, unlike some babblers who ignore posts to respond with personal attacks and ignorance.

[ 13 July 2005: Message edited by: Aristotleded24 ]

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Actually I'm laughing my ass off. And, no, not with you.

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Kinda like Regan McNeil giggling over Father Merrin's lifeless body in The Exorcist. eh?

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Now, where'd we leave off in our discussion of '60s and '70s kids' TV?

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Well, it's the next day, and Sonny, upset over the disturbing behavioural changes that Skippy has undergone, radios his teacher in...Alice Springs, was it?...in a panic. Suddenly, Skippy jumps at him, opens his pocket and out pops a...

*ding dong*

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Originally posted by mellowyellow:

Between 6 and 13 million, eh? Let's see, that's only a margin of error of +/- 116%, so the actual number could easily be zero, and still fall well within Fidel's margin of error.

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Does this have anything to do with my pointing out that you couldn't read a 2-D graph showing rising incidence of cancer over several decades if your life depended on it, mellowyellow ?. Your mother paid for all those books, and you're still a moron.

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"Food is what the world needs the most," he stressed, noting that a UN Food and Agricultural Organization's report of December 8 revealed that 5 million children starve to
death every year and 852 million people suffer from famine

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Fidel Castro

"12 million children starve to death every year"
Rice U - pdf

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10 million children starve to death every year

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And Haiti is described by Washington as the freest trading nation in the Carribe, mellowyellow. And what a shithole it is as they, too, export food to "the market" while children in Port Au Prince suffer malnutrition and ridiculous infant mortality. You're not very big, but you sure are stupid.

[ 14 July 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by Aristotleded24:
So, back onto the main topic, how is the living wage initiative being received? Are Albertans receptive, or do they think, "it's Alberta, there are lots of jobs, anyone can find one, it's not a big deal?"

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Trying to keep this on topic (Hint - if what you post has dick-all to do with the thread title, it probably isn't on topic, but you are welcome to start your own thread)

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Originally posted by Nam:
To actually answer the question of the thread title, yes, there are many people making minimum wage in Calgary. Through figures from Stats Can for 2002, a total of 4,300 Calgarians were earning $5.90 or less an hour. A total of 26,600 were earning $7.00 or less, of which 8,600 were over 25 years old. So, yes, a lot of people are making minimum wage in Calgary.

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Don't forget that the vast majority of those people are working in jobs that involve gratuities which usually double or more the ammount of their hourly wage. Many others are part-timers just looking to make a few extra bucks.

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Originally posted by C.Morgan:

You can keep looking, but you will be hard pressed to see any realistic, large-scale rampant poverty in Calgary.

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Wow. I'm assuming you don't work/go downtown because nowadays any trip downtown means literally tripping over street people who don't have a lot of loonies to rub together. Also, I assume you don't volunteer for an organization such as Inn From The Cold, which each night shelters many families who don't have a home, and would otherwise be sleeping on the streets.

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Originally posted by C.Morgan:
Don't forget that the vast majority of those people are working in jobs that involve gratuities which usually double or more the ammount of their hourly wage. Many others are part-timers just looking to make a few extra bucks.

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Originally posted by Contrarian:

How the hell would you know this? Do you have facts to back it up, or did you dredge it up, dripping ichorous slime, from your own deep well of prejudice?

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No actually I see these things in those crazy little things called want ads. Or the radio ads screaming for employees, or the signs on the windows of most of the businesses in the province. No slime at all.

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Originally posted by Nam:

Wow. I'm assuming you don't work/go downtown because nowadays any trip downtown means literally tripping over street people who don't have a lot of loonies to rub together. Also, I assume you don't volunteer for an organization such as Inn From The Cold, which each night shelters many families who don't have a home, and would otherwise be sleeping on the streets.

BTW, how many people have to be realisticly living in poverty before we should care about it? 10, 500, 20,000? How many in this very rich city, in this very rich province, in this very rich country? Or should we only see a realistic issue if it is you who gets affected?

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Considering the labor crisis in Alberta, it is a pretty safe bet to assume that the people currently on the streets are there due to mental issues, addictions etc.

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Many others are part-timers just looking to make a few extra bucks.

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How do you know part-timers are just looking for a few extra bucks? Maybe they're trying to feed themselves as they continue with their schooling. Maybe they are single parents who can only work around their child care responsibilities.

The 'working for pin money' argument is so old and tired that was used to justify unequal pay for women. Now we see it manifesting itself as a justification for shit paying McJobs.

[ 18 July 2005: Message edited by: shaolin ]

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Originally posted by shaolin:

How do you know part-timers are just looking for a few extra bucks? Maybe they're trying to feed themselves as they continue with their schooling. Maybe they are single parents who can only work around their child care responsibilities.

The 'working for pin money' argument is so old and tired argument that was used to justify unequal pay for women. Now we see it manifesting itself as a justification for shit paying McJobs.

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I saw one of those rental signs on the side of the road in Lloydminster offering $11 per hour plus benefits.

Not bad for unskilled fry cooks.

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Originally posted by shaolin:
What does that have to do with the people making minimum wage?

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Originally posted by Amy:
You suggest that do you? Well, thanks. I'll let my friends that work within walking distance of their minimum wage job that you'll suggest a way to make it worth the (very overpriced) bus pass or moving expenses...

Not everyone can manage switching to a 'better paying job' for that kind of financial reason. Not everyone has the resources to pull that off, even if that just means borrowing some money from a buddy.

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To actually answer the question of the thread title, yes, there are many people making minimum wage in Calgary. Through figures from Stats Can for 2002, a total of 4,300 Calgarians were earning $5.90 or less an hour. A total of 26,600 were earning $7.00 or less, of which 8,600 were over 25 years old. So, yes, a lot of people are making minimum wage in Calgary.

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Interest rates were raised slowing down the economy as unemployment nudged up. In the 1980's, and early 90's, the U rate soared to new heights in Canada. At the same time, employment insurance and social welfare was made more difficult to access, and deep cuts were made to what was left of social assistance programs at the municipal-provincial level. Then the federal Liberal government stopped setting its own minimum wage, and provincial governments stopped adjusting minimum wages to keep up with inflation. The result was the creation of a low-wage economy.

Too, Canada actually has a highly educated workforce capable of supporting a high-productivity, knowledge-based economy. Canada could have just as easily chosen the economic strategy adopted by many European and Asian countries, some of which rank high in the top ten for Economic Competitive Growth Index for several years running while Canada, alas, can only boast that we are a good place for wealthy people to hide their money from the erosionary effects of inflation; iow's a vibrant and bustling economy ours is not. The more of us there are with low wages and savings, the more the rich are comparatively better off because of it. Canadians have suffered for too long as a result of this deliberate political choice to protect and insulate wealth from free market forces rather than an economy that promotes job growth and prosperity.

Next to the States in a comparison of rich economies, Canada has the next largest low wage work force as a percentage of total. The percentage of families with incomes below the national median, about $21K today, has increased instead of dropping since 1980. Given those facts, it's not difficult to realise that next to the USA, Canada also owns the highest child poverty rates among rich nations as well as the second lowest rate of unionized labour, second only to the USA and among countries that matter.

[ 18 July 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by C.Morgan:
Just the one while working in Lloydminster. I don't browse the want ads often. It is rather indicitive though.

I have limitted tears for those who claim not to be able to find good employment in Alberta.

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Well, pardon me, but I don't recall anyone looking for your sympathy. I do recall people wondering what decent-paying entry jobs in Lloydminister have to do with people working at mom'n'pop shops in Calgary though.

The statement below is not about this boad, but about the general atmosphere that I encountered while working as a sales clerk.

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...Less than 1% of working Albertans earn minimum wage, or about 11,000 people...

...The average hourly wage Albertans make is $18.55 an hour...

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