It was $18.99 a month for 24 months.

Having not a bad idea of the price of T.V's at the moment, I did some quick cipherin' and after all the naughts were carried, I figured the actual cost of the T.V. over the time period was about 4 times what it would be retail.

Holy usury, Batman!

I did some more thinking on this. Obviously, the inflated cost is because the rent to own place probably turns no one away. So, they suffer a lot of defaults.

But..... if that's the case..... the honest person is actually carrying the cost of those who default or defraud....

And...like that ain't right.

So, it struck me as a game. The only way to win in this game would be to be a defaulter.

Or, the owner of the Rent to Own place.

Honest people who make their payments as agreed upon are the losers in this particular game.

quote:

---

Did you just discover this now?

---

Oh, not exactly. I was forever councelling my ex about how much cost was attached to the priveledge of having something "now" as opposed to saving and waiting.

I'm trying to impart this to my eldest too, she seems to be of the same spending philosophy as my ex.

I'd just never seen it laid out so dramatically before, and I found it funny, about how the honest person who pays on time is, in fact, a dupe.

Would it be unethical, do you think, to rent stuff like that under an assumed name, and default? It seems to me not. Illegal, perhaps, but hardly unethical.

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]

quote:

---

Would it be unethical, do you think, to rent stuff like that under an assumed name, and default? It seems to me not. Illegal, perhaps, but
hardly unethical.

---

(this is what I was obliquely getting at, btw.)

This is pure theft, Earthmom, and it's a great example of how expensive it is to be poor, or even working class.

I think it came out that 60% per annum was the maximum one could charge before it became usury.

I wonder if anyone ever actually polices that, or looks to see if retailers might in fact be violating that law?

I've often thought that my local, in it's quest for social justice, should have an education seminar for people on the consumer "rip-offs" that are out there.

I once tried to convince a young man that he did not need a credit card and how much he could save by not having one (he did and it was maxed).

After going around the same circle a couple of times, finally he exclaimed triumphantly: "you need it for emergencies!"

I asked him what his credit card limit was? He said $5000. So I asked him why not save up $5000 and put it in a bank and never touch it except for emergencies? In the meantime it would earn him interest.

His reply was priceless: "If I had $5000 in the bank, every cool thing I heard about would become an emergency!"

There are so many telling revelations in this simple statement about where the problem lies with this particular young man. I am sure you all could make a list.

[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: Too old to lie ]

But you know what? After leaving high school, even with this knowledge, just knowing that the hock shops and department store credit cards were usurous did not stop me from using them when there was an emergency - as earthmother says, sometimes there isn't any other option.

Also, the 10% savings that we were taught in high school was pretty useless when I was taking home $800 a month and had to pay $500 in rent.

[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: Michelle ]

Since the poor of the world are often the minimum wage cashiers and delivery people and the front line of the retail industry, I don't think the problem is with basic arithmetic. In fact, I would be willing to bet that the poor of the country have a much better grasp of the arithmetic of poverty than anyone else. When you get a credit card with a $500 limit and you discover that paying the minimum payment barely makes a dent in the total due to it only being slightly more than the monthly interest charge, you get to understand compound interest quite well, even if you don't know the exact mathematical equation used to calculate it.

For sure, i want a system that doesn't put anyone in that situation! For sure, i want a system that protects people from predation!

But i also see people (at various income levels) making bad decisions and being duped. And i maintain that many kids don't get a rigorous enough education in basic math (i did see two kids through school), especially in financial matters, and the ones who can least afford to make mistakes get the least education.

Remember that not everyone is as quick as you are, that many children start out with an intellectual and/or informational and/or enironmental handicap, and that some schools are more effective than others, while some are truly dreadful.

But, I would love to have the equations to plug the numbers into to figure out real interest rates on things like Rent to Own.

I'm not sure it's math we need to teach, but scepticism.

And even at that, much of it is just a trap. It is hard when you've got Visa and Sears etc, extending credit to you when you probably shouldn't have it.

When you have kids, it is surprising what "wants" become "needs" all of a sudden. Nothing's too good for your own kid.

I think it is a case for regulation. the rate of usury has to be fixed to a certain level above the prime rate, and it has to be low.

I came at this subject rather obliquely, but if the pretext for charging 28.2% interest on a department store credit card is because there are many defaulters, then tough titty. The problem of debt default is between the lender and the individual borrower. The rest of the consumers being held responsible for what is, in the final analysis, lender incompetence, amounts to theft.

I suspect though, that default is merely a pretext for high consumer interest rates.

It's just greed and exploitation.

I'm lucky, I'm getting to a point where I can take advantage of good prices on grocery items, and I can stock up on cheap things that will keep.

Food Basics had .18 off Zoodles this week. And someone always seems to be selling kilo's of coffee for $4.99. You have to go nuts on stuff like that and I think it does pay off in the long run. I've noticed my weekly grocery bill has come down about ten bucks a week since I've been doing this, and I've not made it a crusade.

But, if you don't have the money to be able to do that, then how can you ever get ahead?

Never assume that buying in volume carries with it a price break. Often it does, but sometimes it doesn't.

I noticed on friday that carrots are cheaper by the pound in the 2lb bag, and get progressively more expensive the larger bag you buy. At least at Food Basics they were. I did the math twice, figuring I made a mistake the first time.

One thing I noticed about grocery shopping since I took over the task, is that where before I didn't attach much significance to saving a few cents on this item or that, I quickly realized that those few cents per item add up significantly in the end.

Being rather helpless, I knew the first time I went shopping, at "Value Mart" where my ex works, I'd be at their mercy. I think my first bill came to about $140.00. But then, at that time I was buying a little extra each week to put together a pantry.

But, I made a list of what I bought and how much I paid, and I kept it up. I was able to whittle it down by being careful and doing price comparassons in the store.

Then I started asking around to see where people thought they got better price deals. I tried "Price Chopper" and that was significantly cheaper than "Value Mart." Finally, I found for much of my grocery shopping, "Food Basics" gave me the lowest weekly bills. I think I average about $60 a week for the four of us, although that doesn't include a roast or a whole chicken I will pick up elsewhere. I'm not impressed by the meat at that particular store.

What I noticed is that while "Food Basics" doesn't have a lot of "sale prices", EVERY item is a few cents less than other stores I've been too.

And that seems to be the key thing in grocery shopping.

The "Food Basics" I shop at doesn't have the really cool look of the A&P down the road, or the new I.G.A. next to where my eldest works, but....like what does that matter.

And it is true, A&P (which is the top end of the same chain that includes Price Choppers and Food Basics) does have wider selection of stuff, but for those special things like garum masala or fresh taragon, you can go out of your way. For stock everyday items you have to find the cheapest place overall and go there.

One thing I keep forgetting to do is bring a calculator with me. My list includes the unit price of the items I buy; I've made price comparasson as easy as possible for myself. The other thing I need to do is to take my list out with me everywhere, even if I'm just taking the girls out shopping.

Lots of times I've seen stuff and wished I knew if it was a good price or not.

It's at Princess and Adelaide.

Oh yeah, you get two weeks free trial, then two weeks with only the weekly fee. After that it's membership time!

I mostly shop at the small, organic market that's only a block and a half from our house. I know slightly the guy who runs it, know his wife better. I buy my bread from the bakery around the corner -- it's a family business, wife and hubby working together. Since we're a bit more flush these days than we used to be, it seems like a good way to spread it around.

We also buy meat and chickens in bulk, direct from the farm... Free range chickens, beef with no antibiotics or chemicals, and the money goes direct to the producer. We get premium quality for about the same as the supermarket price. And we get to support people who we say hello to, who are part of our community. I think it's a good trade-off.

I can absolutely see Earthmother's point -- sometimes you have to pay through the nose for something because there's no way to come up with cash up front -- But there are also people who will go with the RTO route for luxury items -- a bigger tv, a stereo, etc. My sister (long-term welfare recipient) does this, always defaults, and then turns around and does it again later on. And it has never been for necessary items. How many others like her are out there? I think it makes it much worse for the honest ones who really are doing it out of necessity.

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]

quote:

---

I'm a dullard when it comes to math, nothing there comes to me intuitively, it's all a slog.
But, I would love to have the equations to plug the numbers into to figure out real interest rates on things like Rent to Own.

---

Here's what it does:
CHOOSE A CALCULATION:
1 CALCULATE LOAN PRINCIPAL -- (How Much Can I Afford to Borrow?)
2 CALCULATE SIZE OF MONTHLY INSTALMENTS -- (Can I Repay It?)
3 CALCULATE RATE OF INTEREST -- (What is it Costing me?)
4 CALCULATE TIME TO REPAY IN FULL -- (How Many Instalments?)
5 N E S T - E G G FINDER -- (Size of Retirement Fund)
6 N E S T - E G G BUILDER -- (How Much to Save, periodically?)
7 N E S T - E G G GROWTH FACTOR -- (What INTEREST Must I Earn?)
8 N E S T - E G G PLANNER -- (How Long will it take?)
(Choose No.1 - 8 to CALCULATE) or (0 to QUIT)

(The program runs under DOS, or any version of Windows.)

Number 3 is what you need to calculate what the RTO shop is charging you.

A 1980's vintage Commodore computer monitor that someone gave me along with an old Amiga computer...cost $0. (I tossed the computer and kept the monitor).

Its hooked up to an old cable TV converter with audio/video outputs that I got out of a friend's garage...cost $0.

Think I paid $5 for the connecting cables.

This thing has lasted me for years and the colour is fantastic.

I had a conversation last night though, at the laudromat, with a guy who regularly deals with them.

He asked if I ever did, and I said no because I didn't want to create an incentive for someone to break into my house and steal my stuff.

He got kind of deffensive, and said that his buddy owns a pawn shop, and detailed the security measures they go through.

To which I countered that of all the people I've known who were victims of B&E's, the detectives always tell them to check the pawn shops for thier stuff.

The guy did go on to tell me a story about buying some gold jewelry at pawn shop in London East. He said after buying it, someone he knew raised doubts that it was real gold, so he had it looked at by a reputable jeweller. Sure enough, it wasn't real gold. After a lengthy argument with the pawn shop owner, he got his money back.

And the next day the jewelry was back in the window, at the "real gold" price.

[ 13 February 2003: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]

quote:

---

I'd know within an hour whether it was "real gold" or not - there

---

That's the trick with pawn shops or anyone else who deals in "used" stuff.

You have to know your stuff and what its worth and not be afraid to haggle.

An aquaintance of mine told me that Cash Converters isn't actually offering cash at the moment, but store credit on stuff one brings in.

I've also heard that much of the stuff brought into them in London will be moved and sold out of another outlet in another city.

There was a time when B&E in London was low or at least the same as other towns. Then all of a sudden there was large, quick growth in the Pawn Shops and Cash Converters business outlets....at a about the same time as London became the B&E capital of Canada.

In the end I usually go to Safeway because it is the most convenient (in my life that is a value I cherish). However, I know their sales inside and out, make a killing on Airmiles and avoid their high regular prices.