quote:

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jester
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11798
posted 07 September 2008 07:58 AM

The angry response to Palin by Canadian progressives and feminists makes me ponder what these individuals intend to do about it. When Harper cut the court challenges program, the reaction was a flurry of emails and then meek acceptance. When Harper cut women's programs,ditto. Culture and arts funding? Ditto.
When are progressive women going to stop allowing Harper to kick sand in their faces and start fighting?

Here's what Rick Salutin has to say:

quote:

Personally, I think Stephen Harper is calling an election now to get out from under the arts funding cloud - all the protests against his harsh cuts added onto leftover charges about trying to censor films. The issue has legs. It won't go away as he likely thought it would - after some predictable mewling by artsy types alongside some gruff appreciation from the good ol' boys. I imagine he can't understand why. I'd say it's because something has basically changed about the role of art and culture in this society. Lissen up, Stephen:

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When will the angry resentment at social program cuts turn from words to action? An election is called for Oct. 14, where are the articulate activist women standing for parliament?

I'm certain that many progressive women will be working behind the scenes but change must come from the House. Where are the high profile names like Judy Rebeck and Maude Barlow?

If you don't like Palin as a VP candidate, think on what effect 4 years of her as VP and 8 years as President will have on social policy in the US and the ramifications for Canadians.

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This is exactly what I am saying. I have read on Huffington Post, comments on here, comments on Feministing questioning whether she should be running at all and stating that she should be home with the kids or insinuating that she is a bad mother because she is running to be VP. This is sexism and should be opposed no matter what you think of her views. Obama has young children and Michelle Obama has quit her job to care for them and join him on the road. Todd Palin left his job to care for the Palin family. Perhaps the message here is that national politics and young families do not mix unless one has a partner willing to sacrifice their own career for the politician's?

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Patty Tobal, 63 year old retired nurse and lifelong feminist says:

"We don't need any more fighting in Washington," Tobal said while having her hair done at a little shop on Route 40, where the customers go longer between appointments in these hard times. "Women are not for women just because they are women. We are intelligent enough to make a conscious decision."

Exactly my take on the Palin pick. I was insulted by this brazen appeal to what the Daily Show's Samantha Bee calls "Vagina-Americans."

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"Vagina-Americans"

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This is the international news and politics forum but, if this subject is beyond the pale and the Palin Chronicles are narrowly focused on what a right-wing abomination she is, feel free to change the opening post to something more suitable.

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:

Let's keep this one for All Sarah Palin All The Time.

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More from Daily Kos (same link as above):

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--Palin is a flawed choice. Sure, they would have preferred a wingnut woman politician without the stew of scandals that haven't even come to a full boil yet. They would have preferred an abstinence advocate without a pregnant teenage daughter. They would done better to have gotten a woman who was an actual feminist to pick up disaffected Hillary voters, who were so passionate in large part because of their strong feminist values.

But I guess they run with the whacky woman wingnut they have, not the one they wish they had. Demographically, Palin looked perfect, as mother, governor, and darling of the religious right. But despite all their carrying on, it's not working.

Palin is going to lock up their Crazy Base World vote. Because McCain, despite all his pandering, could not.

But that's not enough to win.

And they know it.

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These two...

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Oh, and someone that BigCheneyOil could manipulate...to dumb by half to get it.

Tell us Sarah When is you kid Deploying...I found his 'assignment' in the Arab Press. I think you earned the "Penalty Box" on this one.

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being a veteran infantryman, if this is so...
she committed an egregious violation of operational security. she has needlessly jeopardized the life of every person in that unit.

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So went to the transcript to see exactly what she said:

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Our son Track is 19.

And one week from tomorrow — Sept. 11 — he'll deploy to Iraq with the Army infantry in the service of his country.

My nephew Kasey also enlisted and serves on a carrier in the Persian Gulf.

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I'm pretty sure what the veteran infantry man is absolutely correct. In that speech she announced the name of her son, as well as another relative and specifics of there deployments to the entire world.
Her being a the potential 2nd from the President of the US. Okee...just put a big honkin target on him.
Made me recall the problems when Prince Harry was supposed to be deployed and he ended up NOT going because of all of the 'threats.'

So that got me thinking. Considering that her speech would have been written for her and vetted with a fine tooth comb I can't see this as getting in there by accident. If it did, well that says something about how stupid the campaign people are. If not it means something else. Which could be several things.

Her son will more then likely have to be very protected in Iraq and will not be treated like everyone else. It is a massive security risk not only for him but to anyone that's around him.
Whether he was ever going to be near a 'risky' area before she was nominated I have no clue. If he was, he more then likely won't be now. Simply he's not just a regular soldier any more.
More then likely assurances of this would be all in place before those words left her lips.

The question in my mind is I wonder if Palin had the smarts to understand all this, leading to a more nefarious, imo, 'discussion' about other reasons for doing it. Palin is no longer just like every 'average' 'Mom' who sends their sons or daughters off to war. To be blatant having to worry about her son being killed has pretty much been alleviated. Sounds like a good deal.

Yes I am cynical because I wouldn't be surprised if the 'whole my son is at war' line will be played up. Heck we might actually get the whole 'hugging and crying' as we send off photo-op.

The next thing I think of is whether or not we'll get 'Track at War' type stories and photos. Will her kid be used so blatantly like that? If that sort of thing does occur it will be absolutely shameful. The average joe or jane may not understand what exactly has to go on behind the scenes in order to orchestrate such a thing. Wagging the dog is the term that comes to mind. Big time. There's just no way her son will likely ever be in any real harms way and if it comes across that way it's all an illusion.

Next scenario that comes to mind, even more nefarious, he's won't go, or he will go and have to be pulled out or purposely re-assigned to a job behind the lines because of all the 'threats'. This will be played out politically for points. Something along the lines of, "He really wants to fight for his country, but due to the evil people, he can't do what he wants to do." If he stays in the safe job, "He will be strong and committed' with a bit of martyring schlick thrown in" The real security issues will be played up something along the lines of, "We understand the security issue, look what we have to go through'. More cynically, 'As a Mom I realize that because of who I am my son is at greater risk. We've decided that the cause is worth it. We can't give in to the evildoers. We stand strong despite it all" Implying that she has to deal with more then the average Mom, when in truth he will be so protected she won't have too really worry at all. If this happens I think I really will barf.

If things like this happen to me the question is just how much was it pre-planned in terms of the strategy and just how much is Palin is in on it. Is she being used because as that first commenter said because she's 'dumb' on this count or was there perhaps a discussion along the lines of, 'So if we go this route your son can still be the 'soldier' but you aren't going to have to worry about him being killed and Palin said, "Perfect, let's roll with it."

I don't support the war but I am uber-cynical about the lengths that this party will go to win this election. Honestly though if her son goes off and little is heard about it, perhaps just a few simple comments, 'We won't speak about because of security issues' then it would actually garner a little respect in my eyes. I can even live with knowing that she's getting as, they like to throw out 'special treatment' if the "I'm just like you card' isn't played up on this issue. If the likely media interest in him being there is met with a 'please just don't, security, security issues' line is used then that will garner a little respect.

Anything else will be just horrid in my mind. So much focus has been put on her pregnant daughter and how she has been put in the spotlight, it's fairness, unfairness, how the pregnancy is being played for points. I missed even thinking much about what it could mean for her son.

[ 07 September 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:
Hey jester. If that's what you want to discuss, what I suggest is to begin again, quoting yourself, again (sorry) and go to the Canadian politics forum. Or feminism, but I think Canadian politics is the best given what you want to discuss.

Let's keep this one for All Sarah Palin All The Time.

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Aye Aye, Skipper. I believe the lack of interest and even passive/agressive response to my querie is answer enough.

Sorry for the disruption, carry on.

[ 07 September 2008: Message edited by: jester ]

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Originally posted by jester:

Aye Aye, Skipper. I believe the lack of interest and even passive/agressive response to my querie is answer enough.

Sorry for the disruption, carry on.

[ 07 September 2008: Message edited by: jester ]

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I hope BCG can give me a little leeway here because I have feel I have to answer this.
In my case as someone who has been participating in this thread it wasn't out of lack of interest that I didn't respond. I'll be honest. I think they're generally good questions but wasn't clear on there intent behind them and didn't want to get into questioning it to get a clearer read and perhaps end up derailing what I thought was just intended to be a continuation of the other thread and not a topic which would more then likely go off in an entirely different direction. (which I now may be doing anyway with this post) So I didn't respond. I then went away to do some work and when I came back saw that BCG suggested a new thread and thought 'great I can answer there.'

So no, nothing to do with lack of interest. Again honesty....This last response is pretty insulting. I dunno but I personally find that saying that you know what ALL people that might have read the thread are thinking and reasoning pretty passive aggressive or maybe that graduates to actually being aggressive. I WOULD like to answer at least some of the questions. I DO think it could be an interesting discussion but I also do agree that it's a topic that deserves it's own thread.

[ 07 September 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]

"The bouffant in the front, which appears to be teased from underneath, is more traditional, to appeal to the GOP base and those big donors from Houston who've been known to fly with their hairstylists on their private planes. And yet, you get the feeling that at the end of the day, she could shake out that lustrous mane (longer than any other major female U.S. political figure's) and get it on with her man."

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Originally posted by Sven:
"... you get the feeling that at the end of the day, she could shake out that lustrous mane (longer than any other major female U.S. political figure's) and get it on with her man."

There is an obsession with Palin's looks in much of the media...

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Palin Media Avoidance Watch: Day 9 -- McCain Camp Says She Won't Do Interviews Until It Knows She'll Be Treated with "Deference"

September 07, 2008 9:41 AM

Rick Davis, campaign manager for Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., just told Fox News Channel's Chris Wallace that McCain running mate Gov. Sarah Palin won't subject herself to any tough questions from reporters "until the point in time when she'll be treated with respect and deference."

Davis assailed the way the media had discussed Palin and her family in the last week and said the campaign would wait until a less hostile media environment.

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The next thing I think of is whether or not we'll get 'Track at War' type stories and photos. Will her kid be used so blatantly like that? If that sort of thing does occur it will be absolutely shameful. The average joe or jane may not understand what exactly has to go on behind the scenes in order to orchestrate such a thing. Wagging the dog is the term that comes to mind. Big time. There's just no way her son will likely ever be in any real harms way and if it comes across that way it's all an illusion.

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That is the prime reason why she was selected by Dirt Barrel Rove.

The Rethugs want to take away all media's and idle public's attention from pathetic, uncaring McCain as well as from visionary Obama.
She is the dummy on the stage to the GOP elite's ventriloquist - you know whos doing the talking, but dammit it if our eyes arent somehow set on the dummy.
Like other pessimistic posts said before, even repeated criticism of her may bring more votes in the long run.

She is playing to be dense where it comes to serious issues, and keeps avoiding them while contantly talking about herself. For now, she is given a pass by the media - they creepily refrain from questioning her policies and go for 'fluff'.
And lets face it people, no one watches the VP debate, so warmonger Joe B.'s trashing of Palin would happen to the sound of crickets.

Final thought:
The common message about this campaign is that of the narratives, i.e purely personality contests. Thus: McSame is a troubled war veteran, Obama a biracial young success story.

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On the other hand, if Track (if that's really his name) is blown apart by a mine before the election, Palin will attract so many sympathy votes that the contest won't even be close.

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Originally posted by Willowdale Wizard:

Would Track Palin dying in Iraq lead to more sympathy votes than Beau Biden dying in Iraq?

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RCP is now showing, for the first time since about April, that McCain is ahead of Obama. I think Palin is the reason for that.

[ 08 September 2008: Message edited by: Sven ]

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Originally posted by Sven:
RealClearPolitics is a website that, among other things, publishes current polls.

RCP is now showing, for the first time since about April, that McCain is ahead of Obama. I think Palin is the reason for that.

[ 08 September 2008: Message edited by: Sven ]

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Originally posted by josh:
RCP is a right-wing site. Of course it relies on Gallup's "most likely voter" numbers, rather than the registered voter numbers, which show a smaller lead.

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RCP isn't "relying" on any particular poll. If you look at the site again, you will see they take all recent published national polls and average them. Gallup is one of them.

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Originally posted by josh:
It's clear that McCain got a convention bump, just as Obama did. Wait a few days and see where things stand.

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In the shadow of the blatant and truly stunning sexism launched against the Hillary Rodham Clinton presidential campaign, and as a pro-choice feminist, I wasn't the only one thrilled to hear Republican John McCain announce Gov. Sarah Palin as his running mate.

[SNIP]

Whether we have a D, R or an "i for independent" after our names, women share a different life experience from men, and we bring that difference to the choices we make and the decisions we come to. Having a woman in the White House, and not as The Spouse, is a change whose time has come, despite the fact that some Democratic Party leaders have decided otherwise. But with the Palin nomination, maybe they'll realize it's not up to them any longer.

[SNIP]

Clinton voters, in particular, have received a political wake-up call they never expected. Having watched their candidate and their principles betrayed by the very people who are supposed to be the flame-holders for equal rights and fairness, they now look across the aisle and see a woman who represents everything the feminist movement claimed it stood for. Women can have a family and a career. We can be whatever we choose, on our own terms. For some, that might mean shooting a moose. For others, perhaps it's about shooting a movie or shooting for a career as a teacher. However diverse our passions, we will vote for a system that allows us to make the choices that best suit us. It's that simple.

The rank bullying of the Clinton candidacy during the primary season has the distinction of simply being the first revelation of how misogynistic the party has become. The media led the assault, then the Obama campaign continued it. Trailblazer Geraldine Ferraro, who was the first Democratic vice presidential candidate, was so taken aback by the attacks that she publicly decried nominee Barack Obama as "terribly sexist" and openly criticized party chairman Howard Dean for his remarkable silence on the obvious sexism.

[SNIP]

Virtually moments after the GOP announcement of Palin for vice president, pundits on both sides of the aisle began to wonder if Clinton supporters - pro-choice women and gays to be specific - would be attracted to the McCain-Palin ticket. The answer is, of course. There is a point where all of our issues, including abortion rights, are made safer not only if the people we vote for agree with us - but when those people and our society embrace a respect for women and promote policies that increase our personal wealth, power and political influence.

Make no mistake - the Democratic Party and its nominee have created the powerhouse that is Sarah Palin, and the party's increased attacks on her (and even on her daughter) reflect that panic.

[SNIP]

The [Democratic] party has moved from taking the female vote for granted to outright contempt for women. That's why Palin represents the most serious conservative threat ever to the modern liberal claim on issues of cultural and social superiority. Why? Because men and women who never before would have considered voting for a Republican have either decided, or are seriously considering, doing so.

They are deciding women's rights must be more than a slogan and actually belong to every woman, not just the sort approved of by left-wing special interest groups.

Palin's candidacy brings both figurative and literal feminist change. The simple act of thinking outside the liberal box, which has insisted for generations that only liberals and Democrats can be trusted on issues of import to women, is the political equivalent of a nuclear explosion.

The idea of feminists willing to look to the right changes not only electoral politics, but will put more women in power at lightning speed as we move from being taken for granted to being pursued, nominated and appointed and ultimately, sworn in.

It should be no surprise that the Democratic response to the McCain-Palin ticket was to immediately attack by playing the liberal trump card that keeps Democrats in line - the abortion card - where the party daily tells restless feminists the other side is going to police their wombs.

The power of that accusation is interesting, coming from the Democrats - a group that just told the world that if you have ovaries, then you don't count.

Yes, both McCain and Palin identify as anti-abortion, but neither has led a political life with that belief, or their other religious principles, as their signature issue. Politicians act on their passions - the passion of McCain and Palin is reform. In her time in office, Palin's focus has not been to kick the gays and make abortion illegal; it has been to kick the corrupt and make wasteful spending illegal. The Republicans are now making direct appeals to Clinton supporters, knowingly crafting a political base that would include pro-choice voters.

On the day McCain announced her selection as his running mate, Palin thanked Clinton and Ferraro for blazing her trail. A day later, Ferraro noted her shock at Palin's comment. You see, none of her peers, no one, had ever publicly thanked her in the 24 years since her historic run for the White House. Ferraro has since refused to divulge for whom she's voting. Many more now are realizing that it does indeed take a woman - who happens to be a Republican named Sarah Palin.

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Originally posted by ElizaQ:
Google the author, 'Tammy Bruce' and 'Tammy Bruce fox.'

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Originally posted by Sven:

I was listening to public radio on the way in to work today. They were interviewing three women pollsters and the consensus was that about 20% of the Hillary supporters are likely to vote for Mac-Palin. They said that Obama really needs about 90% of the Hillary voters to win. So, while Bruce may be in the minority, she does speak for a significant—and critical—number of women.

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Originally posted by Sven:
Had Obama selected HRC as his VP running mate, Palin would not have been on Mac's ticket and the Dems would have walked away with this election. It was stupid stubbornness on Obama’s part. As it turns out, this is going to be a very, very close election.

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Originally posted by ElizaQ:
I don't think it's safe to say that she speaks for all of those 20% of women that the pollsters were talking about.

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Of course not, just like no one person speaks for those HRC supporters who are going to vote for Obama. But, she is a voice from the 1 in 5 who are projected to vote for Mac-Palin.

Frankly, as the numbers are indicating, there is not going to be a tsunami of HRC supporters going over to support the Mac-Palin ticket. Just not going to happen because of fundamental policy differences. But, if a significant bloc of HRC supporters vote for Mac-Palin, that’s going to hurt Obama.

With a disdain for science that alarms wildlife experts, Sarah Palin continues to promote Alaska's policy to gun down wolves from planes.

excerpt:

Gordon Haber is a wildlife scientist who has studied wolves in Alaska for 43 years. "On wildlife-related issues, whether it is polar bears or predator controls, she has shown no inclination to be objective," he says of Palin. "I cannot find credible scientific data to support their arguments," he adds about the state's rational for gunning down wolves. "In most cases, there is evidence to the contrary."

Last year, 172 scientists signed a letter to Palin, expressing concern about the lack of science behind the state's wolf-killing operation. According to the scientists, state officials set population objectives for moose and caribou based on "unattainable, unsustainable historically high populations." As a result, the "inadequately designed predator control programs" threatened the long-term health of both the ungulate and wolf populations. The scientists concluded with a plea to Palin to consider the conservation of wolves and bears "on an equal basis with the goal of producing more ungulates for hunters."

One of the more interesting poll indications was the “favorability rating” (i.e., how much do the voters like a particular candidate), particularly among the critical independent voters:

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McCain's favorability rating increased from 50% favorable last week to 57% favorable now, a significant jump that indicates the GOP convention was a success. Among independent voters, 61% now have a favorable impression of him, compared to just 49% who said the same a week ago.

Nearly half - 49% - said they had a favorable opinion of Barack Obama, while 50% they had a negative impression of him. Among independent voters, 47% gave him favorable marks, compared to 46% who said the same thing last week.

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When Sarah Palin was announced as John McCain's Vice Presidential pick, I found it a little disturbing that she told the public that her oldest son, Track, would be deploying to Iraq on September 11. Generally, disclosing the date of deployment is against Operational Security (OPSEC) and illegal.

Calling around to a couple of Public Affairs Officers (PAO) who would be handling the flow of information about Track and his unit, VoteVets.org found out that, first, Track is not deploying on September 11. He may be part of a deployment ceremony that day, before going to Kuwait, though one Public Affairs Officer said that any details of the upcoming ceremony hadn't been made public yet by the military.

Governor Palin may have spilled the beans on that one, while showing she doesn't know the difference between a soldier deploying to Iraq vs. one preparing to deploy to Iraq. And while not illegal, if she really did believe that's when he's deploying to Iraq, then she didn't know enough to keep quiet about that to keep from violating OPSEC -- something a potential Commander in Chief should know.

But, more disturbing, and definitely in violation of security, are an explosion of stories that say specifically where in Iraq Track is deploying to, which have been dutifully eaten up by right wing websites, and reprinted. I will not reprint it here, because I would only be compounding the issue. But, unfortunately, it is very easy to find on the web at this point.

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Vets call for Investigation

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Gentlemen,

As veterans of Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom, we are alarmed with recent leaks that have led to a multitude of stories in the media divulging details regarding the deployment and future movements of Track Palin, the son of Republican Vice Presidential candidate, Governor Sarah Palin. We are attaching such examples of these details appearing in the media.

As you know, leaking such details is a clear violation of Operational Security (OPSEC), as defined in DOD Directive (DODD) 5205.02, and Army Regulation 530-1.

After speaking with a number of Public Affairs Officers, we are confident that the Department of Defense has not leaked these details. However, as it is simply impossible for any reporter to figure out these details on their own if all they know is the name of a soldier and where he is based, someone has compromised security, not only for the son of a potential Vice President of the United States, but all those who serve with him.

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
I hope for the sake of her son that the polls don't show his death would cause a bump in the polls with a sympathy vote because if they do I fear for his life.

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Clinton voters, in particular, have received a political wake-up call they never expected. Having watched their candidate and their principles betrayed by the very people who are supposed to be the flame-holders for equal rights and fairness, they now look across the aisle and see a woman who represents everything the feminist movement claimed it stood for.

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Uh, what? No, I don't think so. Sarah Palin most certainly does NOT represent "everything the feminist movement claimed it stood for". She's a regressive throwback who does her best to ensure that it's as difficult as possible for other women to overcome the obstacles in their path to success. She's anti-choice, homophobic, and cuts funding for social programs, which are generally what women rely upon when they have children, leave abusive spouses, etc.

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Originally posted by Sven:

What about McCain's son? Or Joe Biden's son?

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Then, just when you thought it was all over and the recovery could begin, Republicans handed us Sarah Palin.

The Palin pick is disheartening on so many levels. For starters, even what little we know about the Alaska governor's policy views is enough to make a traditional feminist weep. The staunchly conservative Palin not only opposes abortion rights (even in cases of rape or incest), she also supports abstinence-only sex education and takes a strict free-market approach toward health care.

[SNIP]

By far the most insulting aspect of Palin's candidacy is the McCain team's hope that placing a ballsy female on the ticket will attract some former Hillary supporters by stoking their gender-based resentments against Obama and the DNC. Palin has been happy to encourage this strategy by cheering Hillary's "eighteen million cracks in the glass ceiling" and offering herself up as a way to help women go even farther. Sadly, some Hillary dead-enders may be so blinded by bitterness that they fall for this nonsense.

[SNIP]

Working mothers in particular should be holding their breath. The McCain camp's decision to pitch Palin's Supermom-of-five status as one of her chief assets has opened yet another front in the endless and endlessly counterproductive Mommy Wars. The moment Palin's addition to the ticket was announced, women began publicly and privately savaging the hard-charging governor for perceived mothering missteps both great and small. (What kind of pregnant woman is reckless enough to travel twelve-plus hours from Texas to Alaska after her water breaks? What mom subjects her pregnant, unmarried 17-year-old to the scrutiny of a presidential race?! How dare she take her newborn to a campaign event without socks?!!) How, or whether one should even try, to balance career and family remains a raw subject for women in this country, and the centrality of Palin's motherhood to her candidacy guarantees that this corrosive debate will rage for the remainder of the election.

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In the shadow of the blatant and truly stunning sexism launched against the Hillary Rodham Clinton presidential campaign, and as a pro-choice feminist, I wasn't the only one thrilled to hear Republican John McCain announce Gov. Sarah Palin as his running mate.

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Right. A pro-choice feminist is thrilled to hear of a pro-life nominee for Vice President. How is it better that Palin is a pro-life woman, rather than a pro-life man?

It's this myth that Obama should have picked Clinton as his VP nominee. Why should Obama have picked Clinton if he didn't trust her?

Pick your reason for him not trusting her -- Bill Clinton's behaviour, the problem of having to vet the Clinton finances, Mark Penn's memo about Obama not being "fundamentally American in his thinking and in his values", or her comments on "60 Minutes" about taking Obama "at his word" that he's not a Muslim, "as far as she knew."

Despite not trusting her, he should have picked her since she was a woman, and that act would have been feminist?

[ 08 September 2008: Message edited by: Willowdale Wizard ]

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Originally posted by Willowdale Wizard:
Right. A pro-choice feminist is thrilled to hear of a pro-life nominee for Vice President. How is it better that Palin is a pro-life woman, rather than a pro-life man?

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The author of the San Francisco Chronicle piece addressed that specific point:

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Yes, both McCain and Palin identify as anti-abortion, but neither has led a political life with that belief, or their other religious principles, as their signature issue. Politicians act on their passions - the passion of McCain and Palin is reform. In her time in office, Palin's focus has not been to kick the gays and make abortion illegal; it has been to kick the corrupt and make wasteful spending illegal. The Republicans are now making direct appeals to Clinton supporters, knowingly crafting a political base that would include pro-choice voters.

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I think she is arguing the following:

■ A candidate’s position on abortion is not the litmus test for all voters. It is obviously determinative for many voters (on both sides of that issue). But, there are many pro-life voters who will vote for a pro-choice candidate and vice versa. This is particularly true for voters in the middle (the independents and the undecided voters who will determine the outcome of this election).

■ Abortion is not a critical issue for either McCain and Palin and they are, instead, much more focused on government reform (something that has appeal for independents).

quote:

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
That article is bullshit and if the American people are stupid enough to pick those two scumbags McCain/Palin then America is more screwed up than it ever was (and that's saying a lot).

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Originally posted by ceti:
Read this before continuing with this thread.

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Well, if I had $1,000 to bet, I'd bet that Palin will crash-n-burn before November and that Obama will win by 3%-5% (maybe more).

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Ha! I'll take that bet, or any other bet against the Republicans that anyone cares to make. For one thing, Palin will not crash and burn in any way. She may stumble here and there, but none of the "life-is-scary-change-is-bad" Repubs will care one bit. I daresay she will prove to be more adept than McCain is by the end.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jacob Two-Two:
Ha! I'll take that bet

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I wish we could bet!!

My biggest fear with Palin is that she has ZERO (or close to zero) knowledge about foreign affairs. I can't imagine her making decisions regarding the subject of Iranian nuclear weapons, for example, or making a decision, one way or the other, whether the Ukraine should be a member of NATO, as another example.

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Patriotism won't put food on the table. Admiring the pluck of a mother who hunts moose won't keep the bank from foreclosing on the house.

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Yet, with regard to blue collar workers in the key rust-belt states of Pennsylvania, Michigan and Ohio:

quote:

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"She [Palin] not only energized the Republican base," a longtime Democratic campaign veteran told me. "She is going to make a real run for the Reagan Democrats."

[SNIP]

For all his factory and shop-floor visits, Obama has yet to gain traction with union voters -- a pivotal Democratic constituency everywhere and more so in the industrial battleground states, according to several sources. Though labor leaders are fully on board, Fisher says, rank-and-file members don't yet feel a "comfort level" with Obama. "I would agree that there's still much work to be done," Fisher says.

Obama, with his mixed-race heritage and his Ivy League demeanor, always was going to be a difficult sell. Now the job is tougher. Not only is Palin a potential cultural touchstone for those still smarting from Obama's description of working class voters as "bitter," but she's even got a husband who's a member of the steelworkers' union!

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Multiple readers clued us into the latest incredibly disappointing fact about Republican VP candidate Sarah Palin: under her mayoral leadership in Wasilla, Alaska, rape victims were charged for their own rape kits.

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Thank God for Sarah Palin. Without her jibes, her sarcasm, her exaggerations, her smug provincialism, her hypocrisy about family and government, her exploitation of mommyhood and her personal attacks on Barack Obama, the Democratic base might never be consolidated. This much is certain: Obama could never do it.

Not, anyway, the Obama who appeared Sunday on ABC's "This Week" with George Stephanopoulos. That Obama was cool, diffident, above it all -- unflustered, unflappable, unexcitable and downright unexciting. These "uns" ran on, a torrent of cool that frosted my flat-panel TV and had me wondering if, as a kid, Obama ever got a shot in the mouth on the playground, he'd glare at the bully -- and convene a meeting.

Stephanopoulos vainly tried for some genuine reaction. In choosing Palin, did John McCain get someone who met the minimum test of being "capable of being president?" Everyone in America knows the answer to that. They know McCain picked someone so unqualified she has been hiding from the media because a question to her is like kryptonite to what's-his-name. But did Obama say anything like that? Here are his exact words: "Well, you know, I'll let you ask John McCain when he's on ABC." Boy, Palin will never get over that.

And how about this silly business that she's qualified for the presidency because she's commander in chief of the Alaska National Guard? Another softball. Another slow one, right down the middle. Obama reared back ... and told Stephanopoulos that those questions should come from the press: "It's going to be your job and ... "

Pathetic.

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Obama can give soaring speeches. But, he's no street fighter. He sucks in interviews and in debates. He comes across as a smart but aloof, if not arrogant, Harvard professor. If he keeps that up, he's going to have a hell of a time connecting with Jane and Joe Sixpack, the very people he must win over to win in Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Ohio and who will identify with Sarah Palin's life "narrative".

That is going to be one of, if not the, critical remaining events between now and the election. If Palin wins, or even holds her own, against Biden, this thing could be over.

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Yet, the top of the Democratic ticket has a very thin resume on foreign affairs as well.

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Obama's been on the senate foreign relations committee for nearly four years. Which is more experience than Carter, Reagan, Clinton and Bush II had.

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Palin is like Ronald Reagan II.

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You really need to take a deep breath and calm down.

[ 09 September 2008: Message edited by: josh ]

Andrew Sullivan points out that the longest that a VP candidate has gone before having a press conference with the media, until now, has been 10 days (Eagleton in 1972, and we know how that ended up).

Lloyd Bentsen? One day after selection. Ferraro? Four days. Quayle? One day. Lieberman took eight days, but he was a senator who had given national press conferences before.

Moreover, Eagleton was selected on July 15, 1972, i.e. six weeks earlier than Palin.

Sullivan:

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Most campaigns actually believe that it is good for them to get press interest in their vice-presidential pick. Normally, they can't wait to get him or her in front of the cameras. It's important to realize that, whatever the intimidation from the GOP, what is happening with Palin is without historical precedent. The question we have every right to ask is: why?

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Most campaigns actually believe that it is good for them to get press interest in their vice-presidential pick.

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McCain doesn't need Palin to do interviews to generate "press interest" in her. The media is already in a total frenzy about Palin and can't seem to stop talking about her. That is causing the air to get totally sucked out of the Obama campaign (Obama who?).

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Originally posted by Sven:
The Event: Vice Presidential Debate
Location: Washington University, St. Louis, Missouri
Date: October 2, 2008

That is going to be one of, if not the, critical remaining events between now and the election. If Palin wins, or even holds her own, against Biden, this thing could be over.

My gut tells me that she will get crushed (I mean, how is she going to handle foreign affairs questions???), but my brain tells me, "She's too much of a wild card, and too much of an unknown, to predict how she will do in the debate...she may walk all over Biden."

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CSPAN currently has streaming video on its
website of the 2006 Alaska Gubernatorial debate. I watched it with interest and she definitely comes off as informed and a formidable debating opponent. I don't think she will be easy on Biden and I am certain he is watching it in preparation.

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Originally posted by Ghislaine:
CSPAN currently has streaming video on its
website of the 2006 Alaska Gubernatorial debate. I watched it with interest and she definitely comes off as informed and a formidable debating opponent. I don't think she will be easy on Biden and I am certain he is watching it in preparation.

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You're kidding, right?

No, I'm sure you're not...(sigh).

I guess I'll have to watch the C-SPAN tape now.

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Originally posted by Sven:
Okay. So, she challenges (and beats) a sitting Republican Governor in the primary election, goes on to beat a former Democratic Governor in the general election, and then posts an 80% approval rating.

She may be more appealing to voters than I might have at first imagined...especially if she debates well.

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I don't share her evangelical views, but I cannot help but be impressed by her. She really is the kind of politician who started out with no big name or big money connections (that has changed of course!). She has what seems to be an amazing husband, happily willing to be a stay-at-home dad while she follows her career. I also think it is awesome that she would speak to reporters, do conferences with baby Trig in a sling. Obviously this is not something all women can do and seems only possible in the small-town atmosphere of Alaska, but I think it is great. She says that she did the same with Piper and kept her at her office until she was old enough for daycare.

Anyways, I won't link to it here for obvious reasons, but Fox aired a biography of her that you can watch on its website if you just cannot get enough of Palin.

Her candidacy brings a lot of issues in regards to mothering, giving birth etc. to the forefront, which I think is a good thing. She is fearless and unapolegetic in this and I think it is a good thing. Obama has never once been questioned as to whether he can run with two young children and she should not be either.

In August, Obama had an 8% lead over McCain among white women voters (50% Obama versus 42% McCain). Today, McCain has a 12% lead over Obama among that same demographic group (41% Obama versus 53% McCain).

I think the explanation can be boiled down to two words: Sarah Palin.

Will that be sustained?

[ 09 September 2008: Message edited by: Sven ]

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Sven: "McCain has a 12% lead over McCain..."

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Outdoing himself in the face of adversity, I see.

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ETA: The aura of “inevitability” has been ripped from Obama in the past week. For months, it has been assumed that whoever won the Democratic primary would be a lock for winning the November election. Obviously, a lot of time remains (eight weeks) to reverse this. But, now, for the first time, Obama is on the defence rather than on the offence. He’s going to have to get his hands dirty now to win this thing.

[ 09 September 2008: Message edited by: Sven ]

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For all the tumult among white women over the past two weeks on the big picture of Obama vs. McCain, they are about where they were in June.

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And

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But, now, for the first time, Obama is on the defence rather than on the offence.

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You obviously must have been on the other side of the world from April to July.

[ 09 September 2008: Message edited by: josh ]

[ 09 September 2008: Message edited by: josh ]

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Originally posted by josh:
Of course it relies on Gallup's "most likely voter" numbers, rather than the registered voter numbers, which show a smaller lead.

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Gallup's daily tracking poll is based on “registered voters”. In contrast, the ARG poll that Josh just linked to is of “likely voters”.

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I think that the fairest and most accurate thing to say about the recent polls is that the race very tight—and probably will remain so up through the date of the election. That fact alone is just stunning given that Bushke has a dismal approval rating of less than 30%.

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Not so stunning when you consider that there's an African-American running for president, and that McCain had a brand name entering the race.

[ 09 September 2008: Message edited by: josh ]

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Originally posted by josh:
And tracking polls and regular polls are different kettles of fish. In a tracking poll, you can have a dramatic change based on the addition, or subtraction, of one day's results.

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Originally posted by Sven:
I think that the fairest and most accurate thing to say about the recent polls is that the race very tight—and probably will remain so up through the date of the election. That fact alone is just stunning given that Bushke has a dismal approval rating of less than 30%.

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Sven just thought that comes to mind. Do you think that what could be happening in a meta sense is a play on the whole "Change" meme. With Obama whether it had any substance or not it appeared from up here to really catch people's imagination.
So you couple that with traditional we support the Republicans being more and more disillusioned and calling for something themselves, just not knowing what exactly, that the Republican strategy is actually based on capitalizing on the atmosphere that's already been set up by the Dems.
So in comes Palin, who looks different, talks different, talks a "Well I can change things to line, in terms of 'reform' and "Not being one of them" line and boom, game on.

[ 09 September 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]

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Originally posted by Sven:

How so? Tracking polls are usually made up of multi-day rolling averages and most static polls are taken over several days as well. So, a bump, one way or the other, gets blended in either type of poll.

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Originally posted by ElizaQ:

Sven just thought that comes to mind. Do you think that what could be happening in a meta sense is a play on the whole "Change" meme. With Obama whether it had any substance or not it appeared from up here to really catch people's imagination.
So you couple that with traditional we support the Republicans being more and more disillusioned and calling for something themselves, just not knowing what exactly, that the Republican strategy is actually based on capitalizing on the atmosphere that's already been set up by the Dems.
So in comes Palin, who looks different, talks different, talks a "Well I can change things to line, in terms of 'reform' and "Not being one of them" line and boom, game on.

[ 09 September 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]

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I have one piece of advice for the struggling Obama campaign:

Fire MSNBC. They’re killing your campaign.

By all accounts the Democrats had a successful national convention in Denver. Their nominee’s speech at the ObamaDome was well received. At one point last week, Sen. Barack Obama had an 8-point lead in the polls.

Today, he’s losing by 4. If you only count likely voters, Obama is down by 10. And he has his fawning friends in the media to thank for it.

[SNIP]

What’s worse for Obama is how this is affecting his support among women.

I still don’t believe that true Hillary Clinton supporters will back the McCain/Palin ticket. Liberal feminists aren’t going to turn into home-school hockey moms because there’s a girl on the GOP team. But something is up.

One week ago, Obama had a 14-point lead among women in the Rasmussen survey. Yesterday, it was down to 3 percent. Women are watching what’s happening to this confident and authentic female leader, and they don’t like it.

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Hypocrisy is only bad when it is improperly used.
—George Bernard Shaw

I never thought I would live long enough to see the day when the Republican presidential candidate would cite membership in the PTA as evidence of executive experience, when the far right would laud the full-time working mothers of newborns, when social conservatives would stare down teenage pregnancy and replace their pursed-lip accusations of promiscuity with hosannas about choosing life.

The Republican Party has undergone a surprising metamorphosis since Sarah Palin was chosen as its vice presidential candidate. In Palin I recognize a fellow traveler, a woman whose life would have been impossible just a few decades ago. If she had been born 30 years earlier, the PTA would likely have been her last stop, not her first. Her political ascendancy is a direct result of the women's movement, which has changed the world utterly for women of all persuasions. It is therefore notable that Palin has found her home in a party, and in a wing of that party, that for many years has reviled, repelled and sought to roll back the very changes that led her to the Alaska Statehouse.

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From Michael Graham of the Boston Herald:

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Published on Tuesday, September 9, 2008 by Salon.com
What's the Difference Between Palin and Muslim Fundamentalists? Lipstick
A theocrat is a theocrat, whether Muslim or Christian.

by Juan Cole

[....]
Palin has a right to her religious beliefs, as do fundamentalist Muslims who agree with her on so many issues of social policy. None of them has a right, however, to impose their beliefs on others by capturing and deploying the executive power of the state. The most noxious belief that Palin shares with Muslim fundamentalists is her conviction that faith is not a private affair of individuals but rather a moral imperative that believers should import into statecraft wherever they have the opportunity to do so. That is the point of her pledge to shape the judiciary. Such a theocratic impulse is incompatible with the Founding Fathers' commitment to tolerance and democracy, which is why they forbade the government to "establish" or officially support any particular religion or denomination.

McCain once excoriated the Rev. Jerry Falwell and his ilk as "agents of intolerance." That he took such a position gave his opposition to similar intolerance in Islam credibility. In light of his more recent disgraceful kowtowing to the Christian right, McCain's animus against fundamentalist Muslims no longer looks consistent. It looks bigoted and invidious. You can't say you are waging a war on religious extremism if you are trying to put a religious extremist a heartbeat away from the presidency.

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A long-time Wasilla resident who has known Palin for 16 years shares her own views on the Vice Presidential candidate.

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And that is pretty damn scarey considering Obama, may have lost himself the race today with this:

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Perhaps Barack Obama's "lipstick on a pig" remark tumbled out of his mouth prompted by Sarah Palin's own remark about lipstick distinguishing a hockey mom from a pit-bull.

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If Mr. Obama wants to win, he needs to remember he's running against John McCain for president, not Mrs. Palin for vice president.

Michael Dukakis spent the last months of the 1988 campaign calling his opponent's running mate, Dan Quayle, a risky choice and even ran a TV ad blasting Mr. Quayle. The Bush/Quayle ticket carried 40 states.

Adlai Stevenson spent the fall of 1952 bashing Dwight Eisenhower's running mate, Richard Nixon, calling him "the kind of politician who would cut down a redwood tree, and then mount the stump and make a speech for conservation." The Republican ticket carried 39 of 48 states.

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Joe Klein is also interesting in Time:

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Palin's embrace of small-town values is where her hold on the national imagination begins. She embodies the most basic American myth — Jefferson's yeoman farmer, the fantasia of rural righteousness — updated in a crucial way: now Mom works too. Palin's story stands with one foot squarely in the nostalgia for small-town America and the other in the new middle-class reality. She brings home the bacon, raises the kids — with a significant assist from Mr. Mom — hunts moose and looks great in the process. I can't imagine a more powerful, or current, American Dream.

Reagan's vision of the future was the past. He offered the temporal pleasures of tax cuts and an unambiguous anticommunism, but his real tug was on the heartstrings — it was "Morning in America." The blinding whiteness and fervent religiosity of the party he created are an enduring testament to the power of the myth of an America that existed before we had all these problems. The power of Sarah Palin is that she is the latest, freshest iteration of that myth.

Obama faces an uphill struggle between now and Nov. 4. He has no personal anecdotes to match Palin's mooseburgers. His story of a boy whose father came from Kenya and mother from Kansas takes place in an America not yet mythologized, a country that is struggling to be born — a multiracial country whose greatest cultural and economic strength is its diversity. It is the country where our children already live and that our parents will never really know, a country with a much greater potential for justice and creativity — and perhaps even prosperity — than the sepia-tinted version of Main Street America. But that vision is not sellable right now to a critical mass of Americans.

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
The Sarah Palin I Know, by Anne Kilkenny

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While Sarah was Mayor of Wasilla she tried to fire our highly respected City Librarian because the Librarian refused to consider removing from the library some books that Sarah wanted removed. City residents rallied to the defense of the City Librarian and against Palin's attempt at out-and-out censorship, so Palin backed down and withdrew her termination letter. People who fought her attempt to oust the Librarian are on her enemies list to this day.

Sarah complained about the "old boy's club" when she first ran for Mayor, so what did she bring Wasilla? A new set of "old boys". Palin fired most of the experienced staff she inherited. At the City and as Governor she hired or elevated new, inexperienced, obscure people, creating a staff totally dependent on her for their jobs and eternally grateful and fiercely loyal-loyal to the point of abusing their power to further her personal agenda, as she has acknowledged happened in the case of pressuring the State's top cop (see below).

As Mayor, Sarah fired Wasilla's Police Chief because he "intimidated" her, she told the press. As Governor, her recent firing of Alaska's top cop has the ring of familiarity about it. He served at her pleasure and she had every legal right to fire him, but it's pretty clear that an important factor in her decision to fire him was because he wouldn't fire her sister's ex-husband, a State Trooper. Under investigation for abuse of power, she has had to admit that more than 2 dozen contacts were made between her staff and family to the person that she later fired, pressuring him to fire her ex-brother-in-law. She tried to replace the man she fired with a man who she knew had been reprimanded for sexual harassment; when this caused a public furor, she withdrew her support.

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Obama faces an uphill struggle between now and Nov. 4. He has no personal anecdotes to match Palin's mooseburgers. His story of a boy whose father came from Kenya and mother from Kansas takes place in an America not yet mythologized, a country that is struggling to be born — a multiracial country whose greatest cultural and economic strength is its diversity. It is the country where our children already live and that our parents will never really know, a country with a much greater potential for justice and creativity — and perhaps even prosperity — than the sepia-tinted version of Main Street America. But that vision is not sellable right now to a critical mass of Americans.

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But, for those interested in reading an interesting commentary about Sarah Palin by a strong Barack Obama supporter, I recommend Paglia’s piece posted today on Salon.com.

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Conservative though she may be, I felt that Palin represented an explosion of a brand new style of muscular American feminism. At her startling debut on that day, she was combining male and female qualities in ways that I have never seen before. And she was somehow able to seem simultaneously reassuringly traditional and gung-ho futurist. In terms of redefining the persona for female authority and leadership, Palin has made the biggest step forward in feminism since Madonna channeled the dominatrix persona of high-glam Marlene Dietrich and rammed pro-sex, pro-beauty feminism down the throats of the prissy, victim-mongering, philistine feminist establishment.

[SNIP]

Perhaps Palin seemed perfectly normal to me because she resembles so many women I grew up around in the snow belt of upstate New York. For example, there were the robust and hearty farm women of Oxford, a charming village where my father taught high school when I was a child. We first lived in an apartment on the top floor of a farmhouse on a working dairy farm. Our landlady, who was as physically imposing as her husband, was an all-American version of the Italian immigrant women of my grandmother's generation -- agrarian powerhouses who could do anything and whose trumpetlike voices could pierce stone walls.

Here's one episode. My father and his visiting brother, a dapper barber by trade, were standing outside having a smoke when a great noise came from the nearby barn. A calf had escaped. Our landlady yelled, "Stop her!" as the calf came careening at full speed toward my father and uncle, who both instinctively stepped back as the calf galloped through the mud between them. Irate, our landlady trudged past them to the upper pasture, cornered the calf, and carried that massive animal back to the barn in her arms. As she walked by my father and uncle, she exclaimed in amused disgust, "Men!"

Now that's the Sarah Palin brand of can-do, no-excuses, moose-hunting feminism -- a world away from the whining, sniping, wearily ironic mode of the establishment feminism represented by Gloria Steinem...

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[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Sven, the issue is not whether we "hate" Ms. Paglia but the extent to which she hates feminism and women who don't fit her Ayn-Randish fantasy. Sad to see you stink up this space with such bile.

[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

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Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Gina Gershon Strips Down Sarah Palin

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
Camila's endorsement of that horrible woman Palin shows exactly what kind of "feminist" she pretends to be. No one takes her seriously (except men like Sven apparently).

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Palin Stumped On The Bush Doctine, Believes It Is The President’s ‘Worldview’»

During her much anticipated interview with ABC’s Charles Gibson, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin had a “deer-in-headlights moment” when Gibson asked her if she agreed with the Bush Doctrine. Surprised at the question, Palin asked Gibson what he meant. When Gibson asked, “Well, what do you interpret it to be?” Palin replied inquisitively, “His worldview?” Gibson then explained his understanding of the Bush Doctrine and asked if Palin agreed:

GIBSON: The Bush doctrine as I understand it is that we have the right of anticipatory self-defense and we have the right of preemptive strike against any country we think is going to attack us. Do you agree with that?

PALIN: Charlie, if there is legitimate and enough intelligence that tells us that a strike is imminent against American people, we have every right to defend our country.

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Palin clip

The question I have is when do I wake up?

edited add: That blog missed out a part in the middle of that. Rough transcript here. Much better to watch though to get all the expressions and body language.

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GIBSON: Do you agree with the Bush doctrine?

PALIN: In what respect, Charlie?

GIBSON: The Bush — well, what do you — what do you interpret it to be?

PALIN: His world view?

GIBSON: No, the Bush doctrine, enunciated September 2002, before the Iraq war.

PALIN: I believe that what President Bush has attempted to do is rid this world of Islamic extremism, terrorists who are hell bent on destroying our nation. There have been blunders along the way, though. There have been mistakes made. And with new leadership, and that’s the beauty of American elections, of course, and democracy, is with new leadership comes opportunity to do things better.

GIBSON: The Bush doctrine, as I understand it, is that we have the right of anticipatory self-defense, that we have the right to a preemptive strike against any other country that we think is going to attack us. Do you agree with that?

PALIN: Charlie, if there is legitimate and enough intelligence that tells us that a strike is imminent against American people, we have every right to defend our country. In fact, the president has the obligation, the duty to defend.

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[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]

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When Gibson said if under the NATO treaty, the United States would have to go to war if Russia again invaded Georgia, Palin responded: "Perhaps so. I mean, that is the agreement when you are a NATO ally, is if another country is attacked, you're going to be expected to be called upon and help.

"And we've got to keep an eye on Russia. For Russia to have exerted such pressure in terms of invading a smaller democratic country, unprovoked, is unacceptable," she told Gibson.

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Full interview and transcript

I haven't read or watched the whole thing yet. Slow dial up, but the parts I saw...and this was the easy friendly interview...
Is mean for me to say wtf? Is this whole thing a joke? I feel like someones going to just pop out and go ha ha, fooled are you guys. It's just all in fun, heres the real deal.

[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]

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Palin leaves open option of war with Russia

Staff
AP News

Sep 11, 2008 17:29 EST

Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin left open the option Thursday of waging war with Russia if it were to invade neighboring Georgia and the former Soviet republic were a NATO ally.

"We will not repeat a Cold War," Palin said in her first television interview since becoming Republican John McCain's vice presidential running mate two weeks ago....

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[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]

[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

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She will be whisked merrily up to her Heaven on a mushroom cloud while ye of incorrect faith can go to Hell.

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Zombie feminists of the RNC

How did Sarah Palin become a symbol of women's empowerment? And how did I, a die-hard feminist, end up terrified at the idea of a woman in the White House?

By Rebecca Traister

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(...) The pro-woman rhetoric surrounding Sarah Palin's nomination is a grotesque bastardization of everything feminism has stood for, and in my mind, more than any of the intergenerational pro- or anti-Hillary crap that people wrung their hands over during the primaries, Palin's candidacy and the faux-feminism in which it has been wrapped are the first development that I fear will actually imperil feminism.
Because if adopted as a narrative by this nation and its women, it could not only subvert but erase the meaning of what real progress for women means, what real gender bias consists of, what real discrimination looks like. (...)

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