I stopped at the pawn shop today between the grocery store and the drug store. I bought four movies - re-watchables but not 'classics' - which (considering that Vancouver is the B&E capital of Canada), were probably stolen goods.

I didn't feel the least bit guilty about it, although up until a few years ago I steadfastly refused to shop at pawn shops because I didn't want to support thieves and those who enabled them.

But I've soothed my conscience with the oft-repeated platitudes: if I don't buy them, someone else will; they're all old, never-very-popular movies that really aren't worth paying $25 for the DVD for; I can't change what happened to the poor sod who lost them, etc etc etc.

I know that even if the goods aren't hot, pawnshops are only one step away from loan sharks, taking advantage of the underemployed or destitute who have no options other than to do business with them, but frankly the lure of owning videos cheaper than it would cost to rent them is just too great.

I don't know what to make of my *lack* of judgementalism towards pawn shops; it seems to me to be one symptom of a softening towards many issues towards which I used to be very critical and rigid: is it a maturing of my outlook, making me more pragmatic (choosing my fights) or is it just a gradual wearing-down of my principles in the face of irresistible and multi-faceted consumerism?

I wonder, would I be a better corporate citizen if I just did without Speed, The Firm, Dante's Peak and Deep Impact? If I rebelliously taped them off TV? Buckled under and shelled out $80-100 for the DVDs?

80 bucks for an old DVD?

Edited to add:
Sorry, Anchoress. I forgot to address your main point.

Your post indicates that you know these are probably stolen goods and you know that buying them is the wrong thing to do. We've all been there. The question is, what are you going to do next?

[ 12 April 2004: Message edited by: ReeferMadness ]

The basic problem is that people don't or can't make the effort to chase down every pawnshop owner in the city to show them a list of stolen-item-descriptions and serial numbers.

If there were some kind of central registry where people who had a B&E could quickly report a description of stolen property, pawnshop-owners could check the registry when they get something someone wants to sell.

At a minimum, one might consider the pawnshop phenomenon a symptom of high inequality and inadequate social programs, and especially of the resulting levels of drug addiction and the thefts some use to support those addictions.

[ 13 April 2004: Message edited by: praenomen3 ]

quote:

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Originally posted by praenomen3:
Pawnshops as a form of wealth redistribution? Why not just cut out the middleman and say that thieves should be recognized as practicing a plucky form of freelance socialism?

[ 13 April 2004: Message edited by: praenomen3 ]

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Robin Hood?

Pawn shops as fences is a pretty small part of most shops. They are pretty good at asking for ID and cooperating with police.

Another dang twang another dang twang another dang twang . . .

I've been married now for a year or more and my old guitar hangs by the door.

That woman of mine says "hock that Luke" cause your momma dear needs a brand new suit.

Well I hocked my watch & I sold my dog & I pawned the gasoline stove. I hocked my ring and everything to keep that woman in clothes. I even pawned a cat & I hocked my boots and I sold the family car - But that woman of mine will be 109 before I hock my old guitar

Twang Twang-adiddle dang a diddle danga twanga twanga twang twanga diddle dang

She went out one day last week I guess & she won't come back until I say yes.

In answer to her "hock that Luke" My old guitar for a swimmin suit.

That'll be the day when I pawn my heart like I pawned the gasoline stove. I hocked my ring and everything just to keep that woman in clothes. I even pawned a cat and I hocked my boots and I sold the family car - But that woman of mine will be old and blind before I hock my old guitar...

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Originally posted by Rufus Polson:

At a minimum, one might consider the pawnshop phenomenon a symptom of high inequality and inadequate social programs, and especially of the resulting levels of drug addiction and the thefts some use to support those addictions.

Arguably, then, the way to clean up the pawnshops would be to create more social housing, put money into detox programs etc., work on increasing employment, put back the social safety net, and bump the minimum wage. Until things like that are done, they won't be going away.[/QB]

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Originally posted by Debra:

More to the point is that most of the stuff there comes from people who took it in to get money to put food on the table and then were never able to get it back. Especially as interest runs about 30%.

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Point. But they still aren't going to go away unless the social situation surrounding them is improved.

[ 13 April 2004: Message edited by: Rufus Polson ]

I've even bought things I already owned there so I could make money off them on EBay. (i.e. Mint Final Fantasy Anthology for $20 Canadian.)

Ooops.

I gushed so much that I nearly missed my point.

4 pawn shops are situated in Cornwall and the police are very strict with them, forcing them to wait 2 weeks before selling things they buy.

[ 13 April 2004: Message edited by: NDP Newbie ]

What strikes me is that most of the "for sale" stuff is incredibly over-priced. Well at least the "stuff" I know a thing or two about is overpriced...so I assume the stuff I don't know anything about is overpriced too.

Anyway pawn shopping has "gone mainstream" with the Australian "Cash Converters" chain having entered Canada a few years ago. They promote themselves on their TV advertising as a way to get rid of "old stuff" that you don't use and turn it into cash.

The reason I refuse to shop at pawn shops is because of what Debra says - they're loan sharks that prey on the poor, pure and simple. I think it's about as ethical as shopping at Walmart.

I also agree with Rufus that the way to get rid of pawn shops is to lessen poverty.

[ 13 April 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Originally posted by The Oatmeal Savage:
Still trying to figure out why rich folks steal.

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He constituency has the highest number of pawn shops per capita in all of Canada, and the number is growing. Most of the people that the pawn shops serve are NDP supporters , thus the premiers secure seat.

Lorne Calvert loves pawn shops and the people who love pawn shops love Lorne Calvert. In the words of Harry Chapin "All My Life's a Circle".

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Originally posted by Rufus Polson:

Go ask them. Start with the Enron Boyz and work your way down, then come back and give us a report, why don't you?

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The banks, and yes even the credit unions have seem to have turned their backs on a segment of the public. If you work for minimum wage, and don't have investments and a mortgage etc many banks and CU's dont want to deal with you. Monthly fees that many of us pay are a terribly large burden to low income earners, so they are forced to go to these loan sharks and inevitably end up paying more. I would like to know what type of legislation covers these businesses.

You can hardly turn on the tv without hearing about payday loans, cheque cashing and easy credit on furniture and appliances, all at huge interest rates and fees.

Hmph.

[ 13 April 2004: Message edited by: BDT ]

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Originally posted by BDT:
In the same vein, the mentioning of the Money Mart and cheque cashing/ Payday loan places springing up all over, burn my ass.

The banks, and yes even the credit unions have seem to have turned their backs on a segment of the public. If you work for minimum wage, and don't have investments and a mortgage etc many banks and CU's dont want to deal with you. Monthly fees that many of us pay are a terribly large burden to low income earners, so they are forced to go to these loan sharks and inevitably end up paying more. I would like to know what type of legislation covers these businesses.

You can hardly turn on the tv without hearing about payday loans, cheque cashing and easy credit on furniture and appliances, all at huge interest rates and fees.

Hmph.

[ 13 April 2004: Message edited by: BDT ]

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[ 13 April 2004: Message edited by: Oliver Cromwell ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Oliver Cromwell:
I don't mean to be more provocative than necessary, but this discussion seems to be leading to a common result in economics: capital markets are a good thing.

Being able to borrow at interest rates that accurately reflect the risk of default would increase the welfare of those at the margins of society.

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Oh, puh-LEEEEEEEEEZE!

This is a band-aid at best and a sop at worst.

It's a band-aid, because it doesn't attack the problem in the first place, which is accelerating levels of inequality and economic insecurity that forces people with no credit to go to people who either buy their stuff for a pittance or loan them money at interest rates that are illegal in this country.

It's a sop because all it does it allow you to puff your chest about how fine and dandy it is that Money Mart is playing sugar daddy _{plus 200% interest} to those poor people.

Let's look at Texas, Dubya's old state.

The cities in Tex's Ass are just filled to the brin with payday loan places and pawnshops. Probably got more per square mile than anywhere else in the nation.

Not coincidentally, Tex's Ass also comes in dead last in a lot of quality of life stats in the USA - education, health, pollution, job security, and so on.

Capital markets are good? Every time I see someone say that, I make sure my wallet's still in my pants.

Guys like George Soros benefitted from the inherent instability in capital markets, and then have the nerve to cry poor misbegotten me when countries like Malaysia slam the gates shut.

It sure ain't me that benefits when the exchange rate fluctuates all the time, or when interest rates are movable at the whim of the central bank, and secondarily, the banking system as a whole.

And it sure ain't people like me that benefit when they're in a jam and need money, and the only guys who'll lend it to them want an arm, a leg and the national debt in two weeks.

Can we say "treadmill"? I knew you could!

I knew of a guy who would regularly hit a payday loan place and have to pay back his old loan and borrow another hundred bucks because otherwise his rent check and utilities checks would bounce. He just couldn't afford to suffer a drop of $100 off one paycheck because he only made about $1100 a month and his rent was half of that.

You gonna tell me he "benefits from capital markets", or are you going to call a spade a spade and say he got taken for a sucker by someone who figured out a way to chisel 25 bucks every two weeks from the guy's pocket without even trying?

Lending money at interest used to be condemned as the worst of all sins, and I'm starting to think those folks had a point. Being able to do nothing and get rich from it may be something we all want to do, but it comes at the expense of the labor of others.

By the way, it's one thing for a guy to fall on hard times and need a welfare check from the government. It's another thing for a guy to take money he doesn't need, lend it to people, and watch the money come rolling into his pockets.

Let's take Mr. Payday Loan, and look at his revenue stream more closely.

Let's say that 10 guys all borrow an average of $150 every two weeks and have to keep rolling the loan over. They get clipped a cool 30 bucks every time for the privilege, so that's $300 every two weeks for doing nothing, or $600 a month.

My point was that Money Marts exist because poor people cannot borrow at interest rates that accurately reflect the risk of default. They have a captive market, and they set fees accordingly.

I don't know who is dumber, the people who go into those places, or us who know better, who know how bad and yes evil that type of business is, us for letting it happen and continue.

I blame the banks for abandoning low income people, and then opportunists for taking full advantage. I am sure that once a person walks into one of those places there is a good chance that they will never be able to get the hell out.

FYI the same person (from Alberta) that owns a large furniture chain, also owns many of the Rent to Own places as well as most of these MoneyMart deals. The sales pitch is always the same, credit, credit and more credit, while this guy is now worth over 500 Million.

The internet is not helping the customers of these places either, as banks and CU's look to cut costs and reduce their store fronts they move customers more and more to internet and instant teller banking.How many low income people have a computer or internet service. Try to find a bank in a low income neighbourhood. Good Luck.

Capitalists are shitting in their own nest by running these type of businesses. How do we shut lenders like this down , while banks are leaving such a void.??

[ 14 April 2004: Message edited by: BDT ]

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If poor people had proper access to capital markets, Money Marts and pawn shops wouldn't exist.

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If poor people had proper access to enough money to live on, they wouldn't be poor.

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Invariably they are not looking for money to feed themselves (because food is not hard to come by at soup kitchens) but are basically trying to feed their drug habit.

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Don't automatically assume that someone who looks down on their luck is necessarily an addict. Many of Victoria's poor are trying to raise a few dollars for the tuesday show at the Roxy. Others want a bit of spending money for coffee and do-dads. Some need toothpaste, or socks, or new underwear... Or how about change for the laundrymat? Get's wet out. Gotta dry your stuff. You just can't make that sort of determination so easily.

And about the food that is so available in Victoria: I have seen what they feed the poor. It's pure shit. Empty calories. Over-cooked, burnt pasta and frozen peas, with no sauce. Dead food. Maybe that guy selling the books just wants to get some organic broccoli and soya milk at Thrifty's. Hmn? When I'm in Victoria I shop at the Thrifty's on Menzies, and I see homeless people there all the time.

Victoria has so many people sleeping outside, it's hard to believe. If you include all the people in Goldstream Park, on Mt Douglas, Mt Wark Park, and along the Galloping Goose, I bet we're talking close to a thousand people or more. It's no surprise that the pawn shops do a thriving trade in stolen goods.

It used to be far worse. B.C. recently established a database whereby now all identifiable goods sold at pawn-shops are cross-referenced with police records of recorded stolen property. Electronics, bicycles, jewelry and the like, are much harder now to fence. There was a place on "Yeats St" (sp. intentional) you may remember, that was owned by that motorcycle gang, where they actually instructed their bevy of thieves and b&e guys, to go out and get whatever they happened to need.

I'm a little late getting back to this, and it's kind of drifted from the posts I want to reply to, but anyways...

Debra: I do buy previously-viewed movies from my local video outlet, but they aren't as cheap as the ones from the pawn shop, and the ones I buy at the pawn shop I usually can't find at Rogers. Also, I meant that it would be $80 for all four DVDs - new, of course, because people aren't getting rid of those kinds of DVDs. The videos I bought were 6-12 years old, and I paid $3 each for them, a price I couldn't come close to even for used videos at Rogers (not justifying, just explaining ).

ReeferMadness: But that's the point, I *don't* know that buying stolen goods is the wrong thing to do. I *used* to, but I just don't anymore. I mean, I self-righteously avoided shopping at pawn shops for 20 years, and what difference did it make? None that I can see. I guess my point is that while it felt good to avoid pawn shops, I avoided them, and now that it feels good to shop there, I frequent them.

I realize anecdotal evidence is rather poor, but just off the top of my head, I remember looking at VCRs in a couple pawn shops. Idiots wanted $150 to $200 for old two-head VCRs that were about 3 years old.

I trundled on down to Futile Shop about a month later and found a four-head, brand-new, VCR for about $130 after the PST and GST.

I bet the pawn shop guys probably paid a measly $40 for the VCRs in the first place.

As for rent-to-own, they are rip-off central.

I remember checking out a 27" TV set over at Grantree. They wanted $700 for one, which wasn't even a flatscreen as far as I remember, and by the time all the interest was added in my roommate and I would have probably forked out close to $900.

Well, I went by Futile Shop a week later, and bam, they had a 25" TV on sale for $250.

Guess which one we picked up.

I adopted a child through fosters parents plan for 20 years. What difference did it make?
None that I could see.

I voted for the party I thought had the best platform even when they didn't stand a chance of winning. What difference did it make?
None that I could see.

Sometimes, the best reason for doing the right thing is simply because it is the right thing.

Anchoress, if you want some twisted rationalization for buying stolen goods, there are plenty to be found in this forum. Take your pick. It's quite possible the DVD's weren't stolen at all. Maybe, your buying the stuff did somebody some good. Then again, maybe you're indirectly supporting somebody's heroin habit.

It's basically the same rule of thumb for booksellers, who'll often say "a third for you, a third for the till, and a third for the store."

But considering that Moore's law applies not only to computer hardware, there's no need to buy a VCR at a pawn-shop anymore.

quote:

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Originally posted by DrConway:
I bet the pawn shop guys probably paid a measly $40 for the VCRs in the first place.

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If that. I thought that they generally try to stay within the range of paying out 10% of the price they are willing to sell it for in the store. I might be mistaken about that, though.

Whoops, apparently I was wrong if flotsom is correct. I always thought the mark-up was huge.

I actually have a video camera I want to get rid of (I never use it) and I was thinking of taking it to a pawn shop. But I'm not sure if I'd get more by trying to sell it privately with a sign up in the laundry room. Maybe I should take it to a pawn shop, ask them what they'd give me for it, and then try to sell it privately and not accept less than the pawn shop price.

I wouldn't feel as guilty about using the pawn shop to get rid of my stuff, because I wouldn't be using them as a loan shark, and I wouldn't be buying either stolen goods or someone's only valuable possession that they lost because they hit upon bad times. But I still don't know if it would be ethical to do so.

Maybe I'll see what cameras like mine are going for on e-Bay and used electronics sites.

[ 14 April 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]

I still pop in from time to time, and occasionally I'll buy something, but for the most part what I'm buying is just a consumer item (example: a propane camping stove, an electric sander) and not someone's birthright or keepsake. If you pop in to one you'll see that much of their trade, especially in the smaller shops on Church, is in super-expensive "chronometers" (read: status watches for men) and cellphone/stereo/car audio goodies.

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I'm starting to think it might have something to do with human nature.

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If so, explain the magpie.

The items stolen are exactly the kinds of items you find at Pawn shops and flea markets. Stuff you can stuff into a hockey duffle bag.

Of course, Pawn Shop owners boast that they take I.D. from thier suppliers. But the items spend time in a back room, and I don't doubt that chain pawn shops make sure stuff from London gets shipped to other cities for sale, and visa versa.

I have absolutely no doubt where that stuff went - into pawn shops. After the fourth time, we spent the next day touring the pawnshops downtown (Vancouver). While we didn't find any of our stuff, we saw a lot of transactions happen that could not have been legitimate.

So, pawn shops represent a dilemma to you. Not to me - I have enough problems supplying your cheap goods, I'm sure not willing to increase demand. Arborwoman saved for 6 months to buy the stereo, it's now been almost a year and we haven't been able to scrape together the funds for another one. She still doesn't have a new bicycle, despite the fact that we both need them for commuting.

The break ins changed my relationship with my community in negative ways. The little house I loved became a source of concern, because it was such a target. It made it really hard to give a rat's ass about the homeless and the poor, because we had been a direct victim of the problem.

This was definitely not a case of redistribution to the poor, since we are not wealthy. It was a case of personal violation - it is an ugly feeling to be in bed and know that a stranger had been in your bedroom a few hours earlier, rooting through your personal possessions. It is uglier to know that they have done it multiple times, and could return again.

Arborman, that was a great post. I hadn't seen it when you originally posted it, but that reason, and the reason that financially desperate people often hock their valuables for short-term loans, are reasons I refuse to use these shops. There are a couple of pawn shops and payday loan places near me, and I haven't darkened the doorstep of any of them. If I do eventually decide to sell that blasted video camera of mine, I will do it privately rather than use a pawn shop.

Magoo, that sucks - sorry to hear about that.

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Magoo, that sucks - sorry to hear about that.

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Well, probably half the CDs sucked too.

I'm with Arborman though: it's the sense of violation that still rankles, not so much losing The Best of Bruce Cockburn. I know things are tough all over, but even in my darkest hours of having zero money it never occurred to me that the solution to my cashflow problems was to rob someone.

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
There are also, in my case, used CD shops in the area, and I don't know if they're under any obligation to get full details from someone selling.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
BTW, Arborman, that's why I don't bother carrying contents insurance on my apartment, even though the landlord of my building makes you show them your insurance papers before you get the keys (which is illegal - you can't be compelled by your landlord to buy insurance). The deductible is usually high enough that it's not worth making a claim even if you ARE robbed.

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The real treat was then the insurance company raised our premiums due to the increased crime at our address (despite not having given us a penny). We moved shortly afterward, shopped around and found insurance with a very low deductible for our new place (at a lower rate). Of course, now we are on the second floor, and have a security system.

One silver lining from the whole mess was that I was able to sell an article about it to the Grope a few months ago.

Another is that my great-grandfather's travel clock, given to him by his father, which he brought with him both times he crossed the Atlantic, and survived a horseback ride from Halifax to Calgary, two wars, the Depression, flooding and a number of other events was foregone in favour of a bottle of tequila by the burglers. Losing that would have been devastating, to say the least - it is simply irreplacable. It pisses me off that I feel hesitant about having the thing anywhere visible in my home, because of the underground burglary economy - in which pawn shops play a crucial and complicit role.

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Another is that my great-grandfather's travel clock, given to him by his father, which he brought with him both times he crossed the Atlantic, and survived a horseback ride from Halifax to Calgary, two wars, the Depression, flooding and a number of other events was foregone in favour of a bottle of tequila by the burglers.

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When my office was robbed, they ignored hundreds of dollars worth of software, a fair amount of computer hardware, and even a small cassette player. They only took the CDs and a big fat fistful of coffee change.

I think the deal is that if it doesn't have an obvious value (Play Station, iPod), if it can't be readily converted to cash (CDs, watches, jewels) and if it can't be used to smoke drugs, it's of no value to them.

I still get chills thinking of losing that clock - when I was 7 and he was approaching 100, he would let me wind it etc.

Apparently a 'Beware of Dog' sign is one of the best ways to deter someone looking for a quick B&E - whether or not you have a dog. They are looking for something fast and easy, and will go to the next house instead (don't tell your neighbours this).

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Is this a sham, or the exception?

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Maybe neither. If you have 9 shops like that on one block, and down at the end is a tenth one that doesn't videotape anything and will "look the other way" if the guy on your ID is blonde and you're not, that's all it takes.

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I would quite happily pay a significant increase in taxes if it would help us approach a time when I could leave my house unlocked again.

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

I don't think crime is about not having had a hot enough lunch when you were going to school, or not having Dad around all the time. I think it's a mindset that says "I matter more than anyone else, so I take what I want". How else could crime transcdend class, race, income, gender and age??

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Really, so you suspect that your office break-in was done by a wealthy person?

That mindset, and different forms of crime, certainly do transcend group identities. However, very few rich people break into homes - they prefer to steal stocks and savings, evade taxes etc. In your face crime like burglary, robbery and mugging stem from desperation, and often addiction. That in turn stems from a variety of factors, but one of the most common is a disastrous home life of some sort (abuse, poverty, malnutrition, FAS/FAE etc.).

I had trouble empathizing with people on the streets after our 4th break-in - luckily arborwoman had no such difficulty (despite losing her sentimentally valued items, unlike me). Bottom line - we opted for the 'criminals are inherently bad' approach you outline above. That does nothing to help prevent crime, all it does is punish the ones who get caught (which is rare).

For some reason, people prefer to spend money on higher insurance premiums, higher deductibles, home security systems etc. than on real approaches to preventing crime. We similarly opt to spend more on prisons and next to nothing on detox facilities, drug abuse prevention programs, homeless shelters and any of the other things that would help prevent crime.

In the end, we have pawn shops, a ton of money on prisons and police, more desperate people, and a spiral of increased private sector insurance costs. Add in a culture of fear and a large number of personal experiences (like my own) of being a target of petty crime, and we get absolutely nowhere.

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Really, so you suspect that your office break-in was done by a wealthy person?

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No, a greedy one. Whoever did it had a key to our suite, and so they weren't unemployed. My guess: a little "mad money", probably up in smoke before the end of the weekend.

Some poor soul stealing to feed and clothe their hungry children? Not likely.

And for what it's worth, I don't think addictions cause people to commit crime. I think they cause people to want drugs or alcohol. How they get the drugs or alcohol is still up to them.

My father is a "booze for breakfast, lunch and dinner" alcoholic, but he actually buys his booze with money he earns, not things he steals. Believe it or not, it is possible to make choices, even when addicted. Mr. Magoo Sr. takes the hard way, and the asshat that robbed you or me takes the easy.

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Originally posted by James:
I'm finding this thread surprising. A family friend manages a chain of three pawnshops. Every single transaction is videotaped, and all the tapes retained for police review if required. Every incoming item is compared to stolen property lists provided by the local police. They seem to go to great lengths to ensure that stolen property is not being fenced through the shop. Is this a sham, or the exception?

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[ 06 April 2005: Message edited by: Granola Girl ]

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Anchoress:... I love that flick. It's one of about four that I like to have on in the background while I'm playing chess online.

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