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Author Topic: Russian peacekeepers attacked pt III
Papal Bull
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posted 10 August 2008 12:56 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Other thread seems like it will be closed for length. Here

Some good news from this conflict, however, from the Economist

quote:
RUSSIA and Georgia have agreed to form humanitarian corridors to arrange for the evacuation of civilians caught up in fighting in South Ossetia.

edit:: tense error in the title

[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: Papal Bull ]


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
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posted 10 August 2008 01:38 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Abkhazia gets in on the action
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N.Beltov
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posted 10 August 2008 03:23 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Georgian troops burn South Ossetian refugees alive.

quote:
Battles in South Ossetia continued throughout the night. Russian sources said that about 2,000 people had been killed in South Ossetia. Ossetian journalists wrote on their website that Georgian troops had captured a group of refugees from one of the regions of S. Ossetia. The Georgian military men locked them in a house and set the house on fire, burning all the people inside alive.

The Russian Deputy Prime Minister Grigori Karasin has proposed establishing an international tribunal for war crimes in South Ossetia.

quote:
The known fatalities in the Georgian aggression are at over two thousand. According to Deputy Prime Minister Grigori Karasin, most are Russian passport holders. The exodus from the South Ossetian capital city Tskhinvali is estimated at upwards of 30 thousand. Russia proposes an international tribunal for war crimes in South Ossetia. The conflict is in fact a Russian operation to enforce peace rather than war on Georgia. The military says it will continue to build up forces until this mission is back to its internationally-approved scale and format. Deputy Chief of Staff General Nagovitsin tells the press the Russian army has no plans to overstep its mandated bounds on South Ossetian territory.

Time for a War Crimes Tribunal to be established?


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Webgear
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posted 10 August 2008 03:27 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The military says it will continue to build up forces until this mission is back to its internationally-approved scale and format. Deputy Chief of Staff General Nagovitsin tells the press the Russian army has no plans to overstep its mandated bounds on South Ossetian territory.

Does anyone know the internationally approved scale and format for the Russian Forces in South Ossetia?


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N.Beltov
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posted 10 August 2008 03:37 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The call by the Russian Deputy PM for a War Crimes Tribunal has received support from the Russian Human Rights Ombudsman, Vladimir Lukin:

quote:
"Those responsible for the mass murder in the conflict zone have to be put on trial," Lukin said. The number of the dead in South Ossetia reaches the thousands, he pointed out. “The one who gave the order for the night destruction of Tskhinvali bears the main responsibility,” he added.
The Russian Foreign Ministry has already mentioned the possibility of taking action in the international courts in The Hague and Strasbourg to investigate the deaths of Russian peacekeepers in the conflict zone. The Russian military prosecutor initiated a criminal case in connection with their deaths.

Ombudsman calls for Tribunal

[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


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Papal Bull
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posted 10 August 2008 03:37 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What happens now, from the Guardian
quote:
And the very worst-case scenario?

The conflict spreads further still, bringing in former Soviet republics such as Ukraine, which - like Georgia - aspires to Nato membership, and Kazakhstan, which is loyal to Moscow. The war in Yugoslavia would pale beside any war among former Soviet republics. The only thing worse than that would be the military involvement of the west, which looks unlikely, given Europe's dependence on Russian energy and America and Britain's commitments in Iraq and Afghanistan.



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N.Beltov
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posted 10 August 2008 03:58 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interfax reports that Georgia has not opened a humanitarian corridor (despite claims to the contrary in The Economist) according to peacekeepers in South Ossetia.

An attack by a Georgian missile boat has been repulsed and one of the attacking boats has been sunk. This has been confirmed by the Russian Navy.

quote:

GMT, August 10, 2008
23:51 Two groups of Georgian raiders captured in S.Ossetia
22:38 Russian troopers enter Abkhazia to avoid S.Ossetia scenario - CISpeacekeepers HQ
22:25 Fire ceased in Tskhinvali, Georgian forces fail to open "humanitariancorridor" - peacekeepers
22:07 Russia's Navy confirms sinking Georgian boat
18:37 Detentions of Russians in Georgia will be mulled internationally -Moscow
18:32 Russian ships sank Georgian missile boat attempting to attack - DefenseMinistry
17:57 Russia cannot regard man ordering to kill Russian nationals as partner -Lavrov about Saakashvili
17:40 President Sarkozy will visit Moscow early next week
17:35 Georgia agrees to deployment of Russian troops in Zugdidi district
17:23 Russian Defense Ministry strongly denies reports of Tbilisi airportbombing
17:19 Speaking to Georgian minister Lavrov calls for full withdrawal fromconflict zone
16:53 Medvedev speaks for legally-binding ceasefire agreement of Georgia,South Ossetia
16:42 Eight suspected militants neutralized in Dagestan on Sunday
16:34 Operations of Russian ships off Abkhazia's coast not aimed at blockade -official
16:09 U.N. head calls for troops withdrawal from South Ossetia
16:01 Georgia is concentrating troops along Inguri River - Sukhumi
15:54 Russia insists on Georgia's troop withdrawal from South Ossetia - Lavrovto Rice
15:44 There are no hostilities in Abkhazia - Russian military official
15:38 Georgia submitted note to Russian embassy, but has not stoppedhostilities (Part 2)
15:25 Head of Investigative Committee to collect evidence of Georgia's crimes
15:11 Georgia submitted note to Russian embassy, but has not stoppedhostilities
15:05 Russian peacekeeping group in Abkhazia has been reinforced
14:48 Convoy with 50 severely wounded leaves Tskhinvali for Vladikavkaz
14:42 Abkhaz leader accounts attack on Kodori to Georgian military buildup
14:32 Russian embassy receives Georgia's note on stopping hostilities Sunday -Tbilisi
14:21 South Ossetia hopes to evacuate 3,000 refugees, wounded to Russia Monday
14:15 Medvedev calls Georgia's actions in South Ossetia genocide
14:04 Ukraine's statement on Black Sea Fleet ships requires study - militaryofficial
13:55 Russian Black Sea Fleet ships anchor in Novorossiysk
13:49 Saakashvili's actions are shortest road to undermine Georgia - diplomat
13:44 Georgia has not approached Russia on peace process - military official
13:36 Abkhazia is bombing, shelling Georgian positions in Kodori Gorge



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Webgear
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posted 10 August 2008 04:09 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sounds like there is a 3 block war going on.
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N.Beltov
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posted 10 August 2008 04:18 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And that's including neither the Israeli advisers nor the NATO equipment in Georgia. Would that be 5 blocks?
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Webgear
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posted 10 August 2008 04:24 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was wondering if the Israeli advisers have been pulled out of the area of conflict or are they fighting.

I would speculate there are enough Soviet era weapons for both sides to start a long and bloody civil/guerrilla war.

I wonder if Israel if/is supplying arms and equipment?

There are lots of good questions to be asked.


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M. Spector
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posted 10 August 2008 05:00 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Al Jazeera interview with Rachel Clogg of a UK NGO:
quote:
AJ: If we can just look at the localised dispute for a moment, Georgia refers to it as re-integration, but Russia quite clearly is describing it as ethnic cleansing. What is actually going on there?

RC: What's going on, is that there's a population in South Ossetia that has for 15 years now made it very clear that they do not see a political future for themselves within Georgia.

Their aspiration is to sovereignty, although because there's also a North Ossetia over the border - a Russian region there - where Ossetians also live, quite a number of people in South Ossetia would like to have closer ties to Russia and potentially become a part of Russia.

AJ: There was a referendum in 2006 wasn't there?

RC: There was indeed, and the population voted overwhelmingly to not be a part of Georgia.

I think this is really fundamental in understanding what's going on now, because both the South Ossetians and the Abkhaz - another secessionist region of Georgia - have no trust in Georgia and have expressed their desire not to be a part of Georgia.


[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]


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Papal Bull
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posted 10 August 2008 05:00 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is enough Soviet-era equipment to keep this going for a long time. Georgia, S. Ossetia, Abkhazia, not to mention Russia, all have stockpiles of older weapons. However, I don't doubt that Georgia has received some weapons from Israel. The fact that Israel had been sending them equipment had miffed Russia, which threatened to have a chilly relationship with Israel - normally an oddly well partnered couple due to mutual interests in arms control treaties, as well as the massive Russian Jewish community.
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It's Me D
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posted 10 August 2008 05:01 PM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Webgear:

In answer to your earlier question re: the Russian peacekeeping mandate in S Ossetia I was also curious about the maximum strength of forces permited; here is what I found:

source

quote:
Although the idea of the JPKF was set up on the basis of Sochi agreement, a detailed mandate for the joint forces was outlined later in 1992 in agreements signed in frames of the Joint Control Commission (JCC) – a quadripartite negotiating body involving the Georgian, South Ossetian, Russian and Russia’s North Ossetian sides. The JCC was also set up on the basis of the 1992 Sochi agreement.

The 1992 Sochi agreement and following decisions by the JCC mandated that the JPKF provide peace and maintain law and order in the conflict zone. But the JPKF’s mandate was modified in February, 1997 through a decision by the JCC and “maintenance of law and order” was removed from the JPKF’s mandate. The JCC cited increasing cooperation between the Georgian and Ossetian law enforcers, as well as the improving crime situation in the conflict zone as the reason behind this decision.

The JPKF is authorized to disarm and disband militia groups operating in the conflict zone, as well as to demilitarize the conflict zone.
The commander of the JPKF is appointed by the Russian side. Currently this position is held by Maj. Gen. Marat Kulakhmetov. The JPKF consists of the three battalions. Each of the three sides – Georgia, Russia and Ossetia - is authorized to have a maximum of 500 servicemen in their peacekeeping battalions. However, the sides are also allowed to deploy additional 300 troops with the permission of the JCC.
Currently, the zone of the JPKF’s responsibility includes a total of 140 Ossetian and 130 Georgian villages. In practice, the JPKF’s activities are mainly concentrated in the Conflict Zone, which includes an area within a 15-km radius from the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali. JPKF’s headquarters is located in Tskhinvali. The Russian peacekeepers in the area have about 10 checkpoints in the conflict zone.


As to your most recent question I heard the Israelis had left and that they had supplied the Goergians with some gear such as night vision goggles... I will see if I can find any sources.


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N.Beltov
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posted 10 August 2008 05:06 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I was wondering if the Israeli advisers have been pulled out of the area of conflict or are they fighting.

From Pravda online

http://english.pravda.ru/russia/politics/09-08-2008/106049-russiasaviour-0

quote:
At approximately 11:30 p.m. Moscow time Georgians opened fire with heavy artillery from the side of the Georgian villages of Ergneti and Nikozi against the city of Tskhinval, the Defense Ministry of South Ossetia announced on Thursday... Also noteworthy is the fact that Georgian tanks and infantry were being aided by Israeli advisors, a true indicator that this conflict was instigated by outside forces.

Maybe neither fighting nor pulled out?

quote:
I would speculate there are enough Soviet era weapons for both sides to start a long and bloody civil/guerrilla war.

That billion in military aid to Georgia, more or less, must have gone somewhere as well, eh? It can't all have been used to improve the wine-making industry?

Edited to add: I'm not sure it's all that productive to evaluate or guesstimate the length of a conflict based on what weapons are "lying around" in any case. There are usually political and economic reasons behind wars ... since, as we all know, war is the extension of politics by other means. And Georgia will never get into NATO without resolving the Abkhazian and South Ossetian issues to NATO's satisfaction. But I'm sure there is more as well...

[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


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M. Spector
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posted 10 August 2008 05:11 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Webgear:
I wonder if Israel if/is supplying arms and equipment?
quote:
Turns out the that Israelis have been supplying the US trained Georgian army with weapons. It was reported that they stopped such sales a few days ago:

"Israel has decided to halt all sales of military equipment to Georgia because of objections from Russia, which is locked in a feud with its tiny Caucasus neighbor, defense officials said Tuesday.

"The officials said the freeze was partially intended to give Israel leverage with Moscow in its attempts to persuade Russia not to ship arms and equipment to Iran. They spoke on condition of anonymity as Israel does not officially publish details of its arms sales.

"Russia has repeatedly refused to comment on reports its is selling S-300 air defense missiles to Iran.

"Among the items Israel has been selling to Tbilisi are pilotless drone aircraft. Russian fighters shot one down in May, according to UN observers."

Other types of weaponry include the following:

". . . . Israel has also been supplying Georgia with infantry weapons and electronics for artillery systems, and has helped upgrade Soviet-designed Su-25 ground attack jets assembled in Georgia, according to Koba Liklikadze, an independent military expert based in Tbilisi. Former Israeli generals also serve as advisers to the Georgian military."


American Leftist

[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]


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Papal Bull
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posted 10 August 2008 05:11 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
That billion in military aid, more or less, must have gone somewhere, eh? It can't all have been used to improve the Georgian wine-making industry?

The pockets of corrupt bureaucrats, most likely. But that is just a feature of the post-Soviet world.


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It's Me D
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posted 10 August 2008 05:20 PM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A little more on Israel in Georgia

quote:
Jerusalem owns a strong interest in Caspian oil and gas pipelines reach the Turkish terminal port of Ceyhan, rather than the Russian network. Intense negotiations are afoot between Israel Turkey, Georgia, Turkmenistan and Azarbaijan for pipelines to reach Turkey and thence to Israel’s oil terminal at Ashkelon and on to its Red Sea port of Eilat. From there, supertankers can carry the gas and oil to the Far East through the Indian Ocean.
Aware of Moscow’s sensitivity on the oil question, Israel offered Russia a stake in the project but was rejected.

Last year, the Georgian president commissioned from private Israeli security firms several hundred military advisers, estimated at up to 1,000, to train the Georgian armed forces in commando, air, sea, armored and artillery combat tactics. They also offer instruction on military intelligence and security for the central regime. Tbilisi also purchased weapons, intelligence and electronic warfare systems from Israel.

These advisers were undoubtedly deeply involved in the Georgian army’s preparations to conquer the South Ossetian capital Friday.

In recent weeks, Moscow has repeatedly demanded that Jerusalem halt its military assistance to Georgia, finally threatening a crisis in bilateral relations. Israel responded by saying that the only assistance rendered Tbilisi was “defensive.”


source


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N.Beltov
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posted 10 August 2008 05:29 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It really look like this Georgian attack on South Ossetia has been planned for years, with plenty of outside help.

Before the recent events, Wired magazine noted:

quote:
Now, the Russian Ministry of Defense is claiming that military assistance to Georgia is destabilizing the region. The Russian-language page "On military help for Georgia from other countries" details Georgia's outside assistance; the United States, not surprisingly, is the largest contributor, providing training and equipment for several years now. Perhaps more interesting are details on Israel sales to Georgia of Hermes-450 and Skylark unmanned aerial vehicles.

And if you can read Russian there is even a detailed elaboration of the military assistance to Georgia ...

http://mil.ru/files/table_15_05.doc

The Russians have been protesting against the arming of Georgia for some time now.

Russia protests outside military aid to Georgia

This is what one blogger had to say ...

quote:
The back story is in 2002, the US started suppling military aid to Georgia to fight "al Queida backed forces", but these forces never existed, and the aid continues.

The Russians, quite reasonably, see this as a provocation directed at them. (see here and here)

The arming of Georgia, like the westward expansion of NATO, is seen by the Russian government as a real threat to their own security, particularly given the guarantees made in the early 1990s that there would be no westward expansion of NATO.

As I've said before, I think that part of this agenda is a desire by Republicans to recreate the Slavic menace for political advantage.


Pretty clear, I would say. An anti-Russian fatwa, as Stephen Cohen calls it, in which a new Iron Curtain is being constructed. An Iron Curtain in reverse.

[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


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It's Me D
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posted 10 August 2008 05:34 PM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One more on the War in Georgia: The Israeli connection

And here is a video of an interview with an American living in S Ossetia that I found very interesting,

Video


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N.Beltov
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posted 10 August 2008 05:36 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here is more about the promises, made to Russia, that NATO would not be expanding eastward. These promises have turned out to be lies.

quote:
Boston Globe columnist James Carroll looks at what might be driving Russia's hostility to recent NATO actions, and comes to the conlusion that it's completely justified:

* The dissolution of the Warsaw Pact was accompanied by a buildup of NATO.
* Mikhail Gorbachev was assured that if the USSR accepted the reunified Germany's presence in NATO, there would be no further eastern expansion of the alliance.

Carroll quotes George Kennan describing NATO expansion as, "the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-Cold War era."

The list of countries that have invaded Russia in the past few hundred years includes, "Poland, the Ottoman Empire, Sweden, Austria, France, Great Britain, and Germany", though he leaves off the US's direct military participation in White Russian revolts of the 1920s.

I would argue that Carroll does not go far enough.


http://40yrs.blogspot.com/2008/04/good-commentary-on-russia.html

The author calls it a deliberate search for an enemy.


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N.Beltov
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posted 10 August 2008 05:43 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And just in case anyone had ANY doubts, whatsoever, that NATO has been deliberately building up Georgia's military and thumbing their noses at the concerns expressed by Russia:

Russia urges NATO to help stop military build-up in Georgia

quote:
"I don't exclude that there could be a conflict in Georgia, and the only way to prevent it is to stop the militarisation," he said, after talks with defence chiefs from the 26 NATO member nations.

"In the past several months and years it has been growing," he said.

In a statement Thursday, the Russian defence ministry named the United States, Turkey, Bulgaria and the Czech Republic as among the main states providing military equipment, training and financial support to Georgia.... The defence ministry also said that a significant amount of military hardware was entering Georgia through Ukraine and that military cooperation with Israel was also growing.


[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


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Papal Bull
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posted 10 August 2008 05:50 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, Russia recently performed quite the coup d'grace in terms of Turkmen energy exports. Given that it was a major point of Israeli energy policy, I wouldn't doubt that Israel is more than a bit miffed.

From atol (I think it was posted earlier, actually, but why not repost?) here


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It's Me D
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posted 10 August 2008 05:55 PM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Papal Bull what did I say Friday in the first thread on this subject? Something about Russian troops in Tbilisi...

Well they are on the way, Russians move on Gori

Will they go all the way? America seems to think so.

quote:
Zalmay Khalilzad, the US ambassador, accused Moscow of seeking "regime change" in Georgia and resisting attempts to make peace after days of deadly fighting.

"Is your government's objective regime change in Georgia, the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Georgia?" Khalilzad asked Vitaly Churkin, the Russian ambassador.

Churkin said "regime change is an American expression. We do not use such an expression".

But he added: "But sometimes there are occasions, and we know from history, that there are different leaders who come to power, either democratically or semi-democratically, and they become an obstacle."


ETA: Thanks for posting that latest article BTW PB, if it had been posted before I missed it; interesting stuff!

[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: It's Me D ]


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Papal Bull
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posted 10 August 2008 06:00 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by It's Me D:
Papal Bull what did I say Friday in the first thread on this subject? Something about Russian troops in Tbilisi...

It probably will be quite costly for Russia (although there is an alleged 800 million$ war fun in place). Lots of lives. Mind you, chances are that there won't be too much retaliation from the West or any other regional neighbours. But still, I worry about the upsurge of nationalist sentiment this will create in Russia. It isn't fun to be a Georgian there.


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It's Me D
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posted 10 August 2008 06:08 PM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It probably will be quite costly for Russia (although there is an alleged 800 million$ war fun in place). Lots of lives. Mind you, chances are that there won't be too much retaliation from the West or any other regional neighbours. But still, I worry about the upsurge of nationalist sentiment this will create in Russia. It isn't fun to be a Georgian there.

Agreed. It isn't much fun to be a dissident either, pro-Western or otherwise. That upsurge in nationalist sentiment you mentioned won't make it any easier...


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Boom Boom
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posted 10 August 2008 06:18 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Papal Bull:
Mind you, chances are that there won't be too much retaliation from the West or any other regional neighbours.


Cheney: Russian action 'must not go unanswered'


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Webgear
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posted 10 August 2008 06:21 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Some amazing posts over the last few hours, thank you everyone for the websites and links they provided.

N.Beltov

Can you provide me an English link for the pdf file from the Russian Armed Forces site.


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N.Beltov
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posted 10 August 2008 06:23 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This whole thing, right from the initial unprovoked Georgian attack that followed their fake ceasefire late last week, to burning civilians alive, looks to be completely choreographed to create a Slavic bogeyman suitable for Republican electioneering.

What a disgrace that Canada is still part of this military alliance that tries to provoke conflict around the world.


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N.Beltov
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posted 10 August 2008 06:24 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Webgear: Can you provide me an English link for the pdf file from the Russian Armed Forces site.

It's only in Russian as far as I know.


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Webgear
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posted 10 August 2008 06:25 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Has any Canadian political party made a statement yet? I have yet to find anything.
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Fidel
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posted 10 August 2008 07:10 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
War in the Caucasus: Towards a Broader Russia-US Military Confrontation? Michel Chossudovsky, August 10

quote:
Moscow's envoy to NATO, Dmitry Rogozin, sent an official note to the representatives of all NATO member countries:

“Russia has already begun consultations with the ambassadors of the NATO countries and consultations with NATO military representatives will be held tomorrow," Rogozin said. "We will caution them against continuing to further support of Saakashvili."

“It is an undisguised aggression accompanied by a mass propaganda war,” he said . . .


Georgia is a defacto NATO member and now fully integrated with NATO's offensive-aggressive war planning

quote:
The Israel Connection

In this regard, Israel is slated to play a major strategic role in "protecting" the Eastern Mediterranean transport and pipeline corridors out of Ceyhan. Concurrently, it also involved in channeling military aid and training to both Georgia and Azerbaijan.

A far-reaching 1999 bilateral military cooperation agreement between Tblisi and Tel Aviv was reached barely a month before the NATO sponsored GUUAM agreement. It was signed in Tbilisi by President Shevardnadze and Israel's Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyu. These various military cooperation arrangements are ultimately intended to undermine Russia's presence and influence in the Caucasus and Central Asia.

In a pro forma declaration, Tel Aviv committed itself, following bilateral discussions with Moscow, on August 5, 2008, to cut back military assistance to Georgia.


[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
siren
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posted 10 August 2008 07:59 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Canada has spoken -- firmly in the USA/Israel/Georgian/NATO camp:

quote:
Foreign Affairs Minister David Emerson issued a statement calling for an immediate ceasefire and accusing Russia of abandoning its role as peacekeeper in the region.

“I am very concerned about the expansion of hostilities well beyond the region of South Ossetia. Rather than acting as a neutral peacekeeper, Russia has escalated the hostilities through its attacks on Georgian towns and cities outside the conflict zone.”

He said Canada “calls on Russia to respect Georgia's borders and to desist from any further encroachment on Georgia's territorial integrity.”

The statement said Mr. Emerson joined international calls for an immediate ceasefire and expressed hope Georgia's ceasefire offer would be accepted without delay by Russia.


G&M


From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
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posted 10 August 2008 08:06 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks Siren, I was afraid that would be the answer.
From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 10 August 2008 08:10 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, we knew that was how the Cons were going to respond, scooter started the very first thread on this by setting a conceptual framework of Russia invades Georgia.

And the news on Global has been spinning it in Georgia's favour.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 10 August 2008 08:46 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by siren:
Canada has spoken -- firmly in the USA/Israel/Georgian/NATO camp: [/URL]

Aye-aye!


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
ceti
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posted 10 August 2008 09:01 PM      Profile for ceti     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Man, it's embarrassing for Canada to repeatedly play the role of bootlicking toadie.

Here's two good articles on this:

Getting Georgia's War On

The Real Aggressor


From: various musings before the revolution | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 10 August 2008 09:09 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks Ceti. Justin Raimondo, AntiWar.com, said:

quote:
What's particularly disgusting is the spectacle of the fraudulent Saakashvili's smug mug all over Western television – the BBC and Bloomberg, for starters – invoking his great love of "democracy" and "freedom" and calling on the U.S. to intervene in the name of supposedly shared "values." What drivel! Up until very recently, Saakashvili has been busy rounding up his political opponents and charging them with espionage, as his police beat demonstrators in the streets. When this happened, even our somnolent media sat up and took notice, but they seem to have forgotten.

From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
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posted 10 August 2008 09:10 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is very embarrassing, to support either at so quickly before all the facts are know.

I think we should remain neutral.


From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 10 August 2008 09:23 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Webgear:

I think we should remain neutral.


The neocons prefer lackies like Steve and his sub 24 percenters in Ottawa to give unconditional support to other lacky colonial administrators like Saakashvili. It goes without saying. We're either with them or against in the phony-baloney colder war on Russia, I mean terror.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
-=+=-
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posted 10 August 2008 11:35 PM      Profile for -=+=-   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by siren:
Canada has spoken -- firmly in the USA/Israel/Georgian/NATO camp:

G&M


If the Liberals were in power, do you think the official line would be different? Chretien, after all, was very chummy with Putin and there was that high profile trip by the GG to Moscow.

Then again, maybe that all happened before NATO's aggressive expansion east.


From: Turtle Island | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 August 2008 11:56 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Was anyone arguing that the Liberals would do better?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 August 2008 05:58 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Since yesterday Interfax has noted that: Georgia has resumed attacks on South Ossetia; that it has failed to fulfill the promise of a ceasefire; and that one of its fighter aircraft has been shot down over South Ossetia. Meanwhile, Georgia continues to refuse to sign an agreement on the non-use of force - something that the Saakashvili regime has been consistent about since well before the initial attack late last week and - about which the NATO client state has been finding all sorts of spurious excuses to avoid. Russian nationals are threatened and illegally being detained in Georgia and their Embassy has been put in doubt.

It is perhaps worth remarking further on these fake ceasefires and unwillingness - on the part of the Saakashvili regime - to agree to the non-use of force. The initial attack late last week was preceded by a fake ceasefire offer, out of the blue, by the Georgian government. It was then followed by the bombing campaign and slaughter of what is now estimated to be well over 1,000 people and the situation that exists today.

_________________________


One of the English language Russian web sites has some rather extreme anti-Georgian comments in one of their stories.

quote:
It seems that nothing changes. Georgia’s most infamous exports are its undrinkable wines and disgusting, low-quality dangerous food products while its most famous export was Josef Stalin. Maybe he should have stayed at home and concentrated more of his efforts there.

Nasty, eh?

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 11 August 2008 06:24 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What is nasty and disgusting is, the Canadian media reports on it.

It seems someone told Georgians all they needed to do was make fake ceasefire, and ceasing hostilities public notices and then they could keep on doing what they were doing, so the media would say it was Russia continuing hostilities and it is only Georgia protecting itself from nasty old Russia.

Lies as truth and truth as lies.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ghislaine
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posted 11 August 2008 06:39 AM      Profile for Ghislaine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought that this was nice:


From: L'Î-P-É | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 August 2008 06:46 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought that this was naughty ...

The photo is of alleged Georgian victims of Russian bombing. Notice the dead guy grabbing the nurse by her right arm.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
ceti
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posted 11 August 2008 06:52 AM      Profile for ceti     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It interested as I was watching a Russia Today clip and the reporter who was Ossetian was talking about how the Georgian military is conscripting soldiers to the frontline, and many young men have gone into hiding rather than support Shaakashvili's debacle.

interestingly, the Globe and Mail carried this article on Ossetian refugees.

The UK pols has been even more anti-Russian than the US, but they have been at it since the Crimean War and the Great Game. Since Harper sees us as the bastard child of the British Raj and American Empire, we line up loyally in their camp.


From: various musings before the revolution | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ghislaine
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posted 11 August 2008 06:54 AM      Profile for Ghislaine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Has the NDP made any comment on the conflict?
From: L'Î-P-É | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 August 2008 07:14 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As an Opposition Party, the NDP's duty is to criticize the obstinate stupidity and obsequiousness of the Harper regime's response. Maybe there is a pecking order and the Liberals are expected to make their remarks first, but that's the idea.

However, since the NDP doesn't have a policy of withdrawal from NATO, their wisest approach would probably be to go on vacation and promise to "study" the matter carefully. The only thing the Harper regime will likely accept is an additional NATO cheerleading squad.

Edited to add: the NDP was under recent attack by Spider-Man and Plywood Man and may have their hands full in any case. "Superheroes" go after the NDP

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
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posted 11 August 2008 07:20 AM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well when I take control of the country, there will be a change in Canadian foreign policy.

The reign of Emperor Webgear will be long and peaceful except for those who oppose my power.


Edit for spelling/grammar, thanks to my Minister of Comminuications, Lord N.Beltov.

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: Webgear ]


From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 August 2008 07:24 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're going to need a Minister of spelling. Otherwise, your subjects will snicker behind your back.
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Webgear
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posted 11 August 2008 07:28 AM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You are hired.
From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 August 2008 07:32 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And one of those sideways hats? I really like those sideways hats.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
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posted 11 August 2008 07:47 AM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What is your preference of colour?

I like the royal blue with gold grim.

Because it matches my tunic so well.

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: Webgear ]

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: Webgear ]


From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 11 August 2008 08:02 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Russian Deputy Prime Minister was just interviewed on CNN, and, speaking perfect English, accused Georgia of ethnic cleansing of the village of Ossetia, which is comprised of Russian nationals. He suggested Georgia has been emboldened to do so with the military advice and tactics given by the US Pentagon. He said Russia had absolutely no choice but to intevene and protect the lives of its remaining citizens in Ossetia, and also made an appeal to the United Nations.

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
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posted 11 August 2008 08:12 AM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have the feeling that the Russians will not have much luck at the United Nations. It would be best if they could end this conflict soon as possible by whatever means necessary.
From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
leftyboy
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posted 11 August 2008 08:31 AM      Profile for leftyboy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How the hell does Putin get a walk on this???? Russia has invaded a sovereign country and somehow Georgia is the bad guy.

While the world runs to condemn Bush Jr (deservedly) there is ne'er a peep about Chechnya. The new Russia where political parties are banned, journalists are murdered and the state controls a Byzantine bureaucracy that is corrupt. So again, how does Putin get away with this???

Oh wait..... Russia has oil.

Never mind, we support the Russian "liberation"


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 11 August 2008 08:37 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Try reading some of the many links in these three threads to get at least a smattering of understanding of what's going on before jumping in with the "poor little Georgia" rant.
From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 August 2008 08:46 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The NATO-Russia Council will meet tomorrow. That meeting should clarify what will happen next.

Interfax reports that "150 investigators will probe Georgian war crimes in South Ossetia". It looks like the Investigations Committee of the Russian Prosecutor's Office is treating this very seriously. The bulk of the story is behind a subscription wall at Novosti.

It will be very difficult to scrape the blood-caked egg off the faces of the leaders of the NATO countries that have been supplying, training and arming the Saakashvili regime over the last number of years.

One story that I read had the author expecting the Russians to reply much more meekly to the attack of this past weekend. It seems that Saakashvili, or NATO, or both, have badly miscalculated.

And, so far, the Slavic bogeyman has been mostly unwilling to play his scripted part.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 August 2008 08:58 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Honourable David Emerson, Minister of Foreign Affairs, today released a statement on the continuing hostilities in Georgia:

“I am very concerned about the expansion of hostilities well beyond the region of South Ossetia. Rather than acting as a neutral peacekeeper, Russia has escalated the hostilities through its attacks on Georgian towns and cities outside the conflict zone. Canada calls on Russia to respect Georgia’s borders and to desist from any further encroachment on Georgia’s territorial integrity.”



Not a word about the 1,000 or 2,000 dead in Ossetia by the Georgian attack. Not one word. And it is clear that much of these claims regarding attacks on Georgia are fictional or based on Russian efforts to prevent more Georgian attacks from the staging area of Gori - directly adjacent to S. Ossetia.

quote:
Minister Emerson also joined international calls for an immediate ceasefire and expressed hope that Georgia’s ceasefire offer would be accepted without delay by Russia.

Georgia's "ceasefire offer" was followed by more bombardment of South Ossetia by that country's military. Perhaps what the Minister means is that Russia should stop fighting back and hold still.

It doesn't look like Canada is being "neutral" in any sense of the word. It's NATO all the way.

Edited to add: even the original remarks by the Minister (two days earlier) only made reference to "Georgia's South Ossetia region" and made no reference to the disputed nature of the area, the killing of Russian peacekeepers by Georgia, the initial Georgian attack, its fake ceasefire announcement that preceded the attack, and so on.

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 11 August 2008 09:05 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The 'poor little Georgia' stuff is bogus. And it is absolutely to be expected that Russia would hammer back at Georgia's ploy to 'retake' Ossentia.

But it's notable that there isn't a shred of questioning here what Russia is up to.

Given the mandate Russia had to be in Ossentia, and that we are talking about 15 years facts on the ground on top of that, its perfectly understandable they would react to the Gergian ploy by pushing the rump of Georgian soldiers out of Ossentia, and Agkhazia for that matter [for the earlier Georgian play there where they have held territory].

But what about Russsia continuing to attack Georgia proper and giving no indication when and where that will end? No one disputes that Georgia has completely eveacuated from Ossentia.

Russia is giving every indication of going for regime change in Georgia. Even if that is seen as inevitable given what the Western powers have done in the Balkans and encircling Russia, and therefore to be accepted/acqiesced to in the final analysis, it is at least worth noting that it is happening.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 August 2008 09:16 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
KenS: No one disputes that Georgia has completely evacuated from Ossetia.

You're mistaken, I think. As of yesterday the fighting was still going on inside Ossetia. And the Georgians have, contrary to claims about a ceasefire offer, continued to fight in and around Ossetia. I don't think you're following the events closely enough.

quote:
Russia is giving every indication of going for regime change in Georgia.

Russia is giving every indication that they are serious about collecting the necessary information regarding the Georgian war crimes over this past weekend. The incendiary remarks by the Republican US Administration about "regime change" were already ridiculed by the Russian representative at the UN. But things can change, as we know.

As S. Cohen has remarked, the NATO countries seem to be conducting their foreign relations with Russia as if the latter has no legitimate security interests whatsoever. This policy is backfiring.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
leftyboy
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posted 11 August 2008 09:18 AM      Profile for leftyboy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
Try reading some of the many links in these three threads to get at least a smattering of understanding of what's going on before jumping in with the "poor little Georgia" rant.

Don't be such a condescending twat. I never said that Georgia was a saint but that does not allow Russia to invade a sovereign nation under the guise of peacekeeping. Unless you suddenly support the war in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Oh and having a Russian human rights ombudsman call for the investigation of war crimes is rich. Wonder if he ever says anything about the human rights abuses of the Putin government.

N.Beltov where does it say anywhere that the guy being carried in the picture is dead???? (Other than your smear of course.) If you have some proof that the photo is fake then bring it on. Until then I'm going to trust Reuters.

Nice to see that you trust Pravda, or whatever Kremlin mouthpiece you point to, rather than an a highly respected and reputable news agency. By the way I loved Pravda's article questioning evolution. "textbooks imply that Stanley Miller, in the 190's [sic], showed that life could arise by chance. Nothing could be further from the truth."

Typical reaction from some on this board. Georgia receives support from the US and Israel so therefore they're fair game for the noble Russians.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 August 2008 09:24 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Many of the links regarding the US anti-Russian fatwa come from US sources who are concerned about the bellicose direction of the current Republican administration in their country, and not just in regard to Iran, and make specific mention of the likely course of events in regard to Ossetia, Abkhazia (which is actually more important) if the military buildup in Georgia was to continue.

In other words, US commentators predicted something like this. But go ahead and "believe" anything you like. Facts often get in the way of a good yarn.

_________________

Incidently, Abkhazia is the more important prize for Georgia. But it looks like they are out of luck there as well.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 August 2008 09:27 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Further to my previous point, the Soviet leader Gorbachev was promised that there would not be an eastward march of NATO recruitment towards Russia if his country agreed to steps in regard to Germany. IT turns out to be a pack of lies and we now have what Stephen Cohen has called a new iron curtain ... in reverse.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
guy cybershy
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posted 11 August 2008 09:29 AM      Profile for guy cybershy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why didn't Saakashvili anticipate this reaction? He must have known this was coming. The US must have been encouraging this behind the scenes to distract from their own agression in Iraq. This will allow McCain (whose campaign has ties to the Georgian leadership) to posture about poor democratic Georgia and appear presidential before the clueless American electorate.
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jester
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posted 11 August 2008 09:32 AM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
The Russians haven't changed since they invaded Hugary and the former Czechoslovakia. Putin shows his hand as just another KGB stooge turned dictator in a long line of Russian leaders who started as KGB stooges. Putin has always planned to crush dissent in the Caucasus republics and this is his excuse.

Russia's energy extortion of Europe is circumvented by the trans- Caucasus pipeline and Russia plans to plug this leak if they have to kill everone in Georgia.

Its all about oil! Its all about oil!


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 August 2008 09:34 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Argentine Junta ---- > Falklands.
Hussein ---- > Kuwait.
Saakashvili ---- > South Ossetia.

In each case, a regime with close ties to the US was not discouraged from certain attacks against a much weaker neighbour. In the case of the Falklands, the Brits even cut support there prior to their later show of force.

In any case, the picture is clear enough. If Saakashvili spins completely out of control, NATO will simply jettison their support and wash their hands of any and all responsibility.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
RosaL
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posted 11 August 2008 09:35 AM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jester:

Its all about oil! Its all about oil!

Yes, I think oil has a lot to do with it. But why do you assume this is true only of the Russians?


From: the underclass | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 August 2008 09:38 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree that bigger geopolitical factors are playing a role. But it's about oil AND natural gas in that regard.

And, if you will recall, the US invasion of Iraq followed Hussein's disconnect of Iraqi oil from the US dollar. There is rather strong evidence that players besides the Russians are treating this entire region as of strategic interest (or simply their property).


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
leftyboy
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posted 11 August 2008 09:39 AM      Profile for leftyboy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Further to my previous point, the Soviet leader Gorbachev was promised that there would not be an eastward march of NATO recruitment towards Russia if his country agreed to steps in regard to Germany. IT turns out to be a pack of lies and we now have what Stephen Cohen has called a new iron curtain ... in reverse.

Sovereign nations have the right to determine their own fate. If these countries want to join NATO and work towards EU membership so be it. Unless, of course, you think the world should be carved up by the US and the USSR... sorry Russia


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
leftyboy
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posted 11 August 2008 09:44 AM      Profile for leftyboy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Many of the links regarding the US anti-Russian fatwa come from US sources who are concerned about the bellicose direction of the current Republican administration in their country, and not just in regard to Iran, and make specific mention of the likely course of events in regard to Ossetia, Abkhazia (which is actually more important) if the military buildup in Georgia was to continue.

In other words, US commentators predicted something like this. But go ahead and "believe" anything you like. Facts often get in the way of a good yarn.

_________________

Incidently, Abkhazia is the more important prize for Georgia. But it looks like they are out of luck there as well.


What drugs are you on and it's not polite not to share. Russia has been agitating in former Soviet republics for years. Just look at the riots they staged in Estonia over the moving of a statue. Putin has just taken a page out of Hitler's book and lays claim as protector to ethnic Russians the world around.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 11 August 2008 09:44 AM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You seem to have missed the referendum from two years ago where the people themselves told the Georgians to fuck off with their claims to rule over them.

This who owns the country must be bizarre for any one born after WWII. For 50 years they were an integrated part of the Soviet Union with most control from the Kremlin. Then the Soviet Union splits apart and unlike the Americans when their Georgia seceded they do not have a civil war but allow the break away Georgia to secede. The people of the region within a few years and this is now 15 years ago say to the Georgians "Your Not the Boss Of Us". So now we have a Western backed dictator who like Hitler won an election once but since then has been brutal in his dealings with dissenters and is widely seen as illegitimate in his own country by real progressives. The fact that he is a graduate of an American university is significant IMO. I am sure it has given him great networking oppportunites within the Imperial pwoer centres like the White House and the CIA. Just another bad boy but he is the West's bad boy so he is not evil.

So what right is Georgia's claim based on? Who the fuck gave them the authority over others especially when those others have democratically rejected that rule.


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
guy cybershy
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posted 11 August 2008 09:46 AM      Profile for guy cybershy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Russians were promised many years ago by Clinton that Nato had no plans to expand eastward. Saakashvili is an American puppet, a megalomaniac willing to sacrifice the lives of his own people to satisfy his own ego. The attack by Georgia on Tskhanvali easily qualifies as a war crime.

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: guy cybershy ]


From: Calgary | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 August 2008 09:47 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The very idea that Russia has legitimate security interests seems to be alien to a number of posters here.

It seems very much as Cohen has spelled it out; that, in fact, what ties together this NEW cold war with the OLD one is a common anti-Russian prejudice and that anti-communism may be a much less important factor that was claimed.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
guy cybershy
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posted 11 August 2008 09:53 AM      Profile for guy cybershy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Can you imagine the American reaction if someone killed fifteen of their peackeepers(if you can imagine such a thing)? The US and NATO are absolutely morally bankrupt.
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RosaL
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posted 11 August 2008 09:55 AM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
The very idea that Russia has legitimate security interests seems to be alien to a number of posters here.

It seems very much as Cohen has spelled it out; that, in fact, what ties together this NEW cold war with the OLD one is a common anti-Russian prejudice and that anti-communism may be a much less important factor that was claimed.


I think anti-communism had a lot to do with the cold war: the Soviet Union - at least for a while - posed a serious threat to American capitalism.

But both then and now, I think it's hostility to a rival power, more than it is an anti-Russian prejudice, that's at work.

"They hate us because we're slavic" is right up there with "they hate freedom" IMO. Nationalism is a strong component of current Russian ideology (such as it is), just as "freedom" is of American ideology. I'm not in the least surprised when either one is invoked to explain the actions of "the enemy".

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]


From: the underclass | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 August 2008 10:00 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
leftyboy: If you have some proof that the photo is fake then bring it on. Until then I'm going to trust Reuters.

Have a look yourself at the work of the "highly respectable and reputable news agency."

Reuters photoshop dirty tricks.

Edited to add: Whaddaya know? It's the picture of the day!!!

Liar, liar, pants on fire ... nose as long as a telephone wire!

Incidently, the Reuters caption reads:

"A Georgian man cries as he holds the body of his relative after a bombardment in Gori."

picture - Reuters

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
guy cybershy
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posted 11 August 2008 10:02 AM      Profile for guy cybershy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The cold war had little to do with ideology. Romania had the nastiest Communist despot in Europe, yet Ceucescu was always welcome in Washington. When the cold war ended, Russia was robbed and impoverished by the West and the Yeltsin regime.
From: Calgary | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
RosaL
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posted 11 August 2008 10:07 AM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by guy cybershy:
The cold war had little to do with ideology. Romania had the nastiest Communist despot in Europe, yet Ceucescu was always welcome in Washington. When the cold war ended, Russia was robbed and impoverished by the West and the Yeltsin regime.

Ceauşescu was pursuing a line independent of - and in some ways opposed to - Moscow. That would be enough for the Americans.

Yes, I had heard something somewhere about what the West did to Russia after the Soviet Union fell apart. I would call that ideological to the max. It was the triumph of raw capitalism!


From: the underclass | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 11 August 2008 10:22 AM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RosaL:

Yes, I think oil has a lot to do with it. But why do you assume this is true only of the Russians?


Where do you get the idea that I assume this is true only of the Russians?

I think it is myopic of supporters of Russia and/or various communist ideologies to assume only western countries have a large oil component to their geopolitical asperations.

Russia is still a dictatorship that sucks in investment and then steals the fruit of those investments with phony prosecutions. Dear old Vladimir is a KGB apparatchik skilled at posturing as a friend while picking your pocket.

Russian delusions of former grandeur are as large a threat to world peace as the Pax Americana geopolitical aspirations of the Great Satan.


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
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posted 11 August 2008 10:23 AM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post
I rather liked this letter in the Globe today:

quote)

The answer to that "authoritarian bully" Russia now invading Georgia to maintain independence for South Ossetia is clear: Provide Georgia with those U.S.ground-to-air missiles that felled aircraft in the 1980s for the mujahedeen.

Then, we can all get involved in protecting the oil pipelines so important to the West.

Meanwhile, Europe will have become so dependent on Russian oil that NATO will fracture along those lines of dependency and...

(end quote)


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
RosaL
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posted 11 August 2008 10:26 AM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jester:

I think it is myopic of supporters of Russia and/or various communist ideologies to assume only western countries have a large oil component to their geopolitical asperations.


I don't for a minute doubt that oil is a consideration for Russia.


From: the underclass | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
leftyboy
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posted 11 August 2008 10:27 AM      Profile for leftyboy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:

Have a look yourself at the work of the "highly respectable and reputable news agency."

Reuters photoshop dirty tricks.

Edited to add: Whaddaya know? It's the picture of the day!!!

Liar, liar, pants on fire ... nose as long as a telephone wire!

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


Funny how you chose the incident that was used to slander Israel and the photographer was quickly caught out and fired.

Reuters has been routinely targeted in the right wing media for being to pro "terrorist" as Reuters global news editor Stephen Jukes wrote, "We all know that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, and that Reuters upholds the principle that we do not use the word terrorist."

So we have two different photos in time and of different angles of the same dead guy. I guess all those bombed out buildings are just a Georgian aesthetic. You do realise that most injuries and fatalities from aerial bombing do very little external damage to the body. It's the concussive pressure wave and the following cycle of over and under pressure that causes instant and fatal barotrauma.

Basically your lungs explode and you drown in your own blood. Thankfully your brain is so concussed you're unconscious when you die.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 11 August 2008 10:32 AM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
The very idea that Russia has legitimate security interests seems to be alien to a number of posters here.

It seems very much as Cohen has spelled it out; that, in fact, what ties together this NEW cold war with the OLD one is a common anti-Russian prejudice and that anti-communism may be a much less important factor that was claimed.


Russia's legitimate security interests are expressed in similar methods as the legitimate security interests of Pakistan - a national insecurity that destabilises its neighbours in order to create a strategic depth.

In the Russian case,it is a buffer of semi-autonimous republics and sovereign former vassal states while the Pakistani foment instability in Afghanistan to provide a fall-back position in any future war with India.

Both Russia and Pakistan have a strategic interest in destabilising their neighbours and don't care who gets hurt.


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 11 August 2008 10:38 AM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jester:

Russia's legitimate security interests are expressed in similar methods as the legitimate security interests of Pakistan - a national insecurity that destabilises its neighbours in order to create a strategic depth.

In the Russian case,it is a buffer of semi-autonimous republics and sovereign former vassal states while the Pakistani foment instability in Afghanistan to provide a fall-back position in any future war with India.

Both Russia and Pakistan have a strategic interest in destabilising their neighbours and don't care who gets hurt.


LOL You are one funny Jester.

From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
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posted 11 August 2008 10:43 AM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jester:

Both Russia and Pakistan have a strategic interest in destabilising their neighbours and don't care who gets hurt.


While I agree with your thoughts about Afghanistan and Pakistan, I do not believe this is the case with Russia in this scenario.


From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 11 August 2008 10:55 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by leftyboy:

Funny how you chose the incident that was used to slander Israel and the photographer was quickly caught out and fired.

Reuters has been routinely targeted in the right wing media for being to pro "terrorist" as Reuters global news editor Stephen Jukes wrote, "We all know that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, and that Reuters upholds the principle that we do not use the word terrorist."

So we have two different photos in time and of different angles of the same dead guy. I guess all those bombed out buildings are just a Georgian aesthetic. You do realise that most injuries and fatalities from aerial bombing do very little external damage to the body. It's the concussive pressure wave and the following cycle of over and under pressure that causes instant and fatal barotrauma.

Basically your lungs explode and you drown in your own blood. Thankfully your brain is so concussed you're unconscious when you die.


Regardless they are still running around moving "bodies" and setting up shots. The credibility of this series of photographs is totally compromised, whatever reason you can come up with to assert the notion that the man is dead, the fact is there is no reason to believe anything that is said about them.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 11 August 2008 10:59 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RosaL:

Ceauşescu was pursuing a line independent of - and in some ways opposed to - Moscow. That would be enough for the Americans.

Yes, I had heard something somewhere about what the West did to Russia after the Soviet Union fell apart. I would call that ideological to the max. It was the triumph of raw capitalism!


Rumania did in fact oppose Moscow on a number of key issues:

quote:
Romania's divergence from Soviet policies widened under Ceausescu. In 1967 Romania recognized the Federal Republic of Germany (West Germany) and maintained diplomatic relations with Israel after the June 1967 War. In August 1968, Ceausescu visited Prague to lend support to Alexander Dubcek's government. Romania denounced the Soviet Union for ordering the Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia, and Ceausescu met Tito twice after the invasion to discuss a common defense against a possible Bulgarian-Soviet military action and reassert their insistence on full autonomy, equal national rights, and noninterference. Popular acceptance of Ceausescu's regime peaked during his defiance of the Soviet Union following the invasion of Czechoslovakia; most Romanians believed his actions had averted Soviet re-occupation of their country.

The Ceausescu Succession

I am not going to vouch for this source, but the general outline is correct.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 11 August 2008 11:18 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jester:
The Russians haven't changed since they invaded Hugary and the former Czechoslovakia. Putin shows his hand as just another KGB stooge turned dictator in a long line of Russian leaders who started as KGB stooges. Putin has always planned to crush dissent in the Caucasus republics and this is his excuse.

Russia's energy extortion of Europe is circumvented by the trans- Caucasus pipeline and Russia plans to plug this leak if they have to kill everone in Georgia.

Its all about oil! Its all about oil!


The Americans haven't changed since; the Spanish American War, they illegally took over Hawaii and imprisoning the royal family, they made "client" states out of Puerto Rico and the Philippenes, they financially supported the rise of Hitler and they occupied Vietnam. Bush III shows his hand as just another stooge of the fascist dictatorship in a long line of American leaders that were the same. The silent hand behind Bush has always planned to crush dissent in the world republics that do not follow their dictates and this was just another step in the plan.

America's energy extortion of the world is circumvented by the Russian plans to plug this leak. But if they have to sacrifice everyone in Georgia and South Ossetia to further their continued world extortion they will.

Its all about oil being bought in USA dollars! Its all about oil being bought in USA dollars!

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: remind ]


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
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posted 11 August 2008 11:20 AM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Don't be such a condescending twat.

Leftboy, I just noticed your terminilogy. Sexist and demeaning. Please don't tell me I have to explain why. Fix it and behave.


From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 11 August 2008 11:26 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It’s a bit entertaining watching some babblers defend military action by the Russians.
From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 11 August 2008 11:28 AM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
It’s a bit entertaining watching some babblers defend military action by the Russians.
Right up there with watching others defend the Georgian governments incursion into an autonomous region that has democratically told the Georgians to fuck off. Gee who attacked first?

From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 11 August 2008 11:32 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It’s a bit entertaining watching some babblers defend military action by the Russians.

Would you support the Russian incursion if in fact the Georgians were engaged in ethnic cleansing as is being reported?

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 11 August 2008 11:34 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
It’s a bit entertaining watching some babblers defend military action by the Russians.

It’s a bit entertaining, if you call puke in the back of your thoughtentertaining, watching some babblers misinterpret the pointing out of hypocrisy and call other babblers defendants of military action by the Russians, when they calling hypocrisy for what it.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 August 2008 11:34 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Georgian Ministry of Foreign Affairs is now claiming that "[T]he Occupation of Georgia by Invading Russian Forces Has Begun", though the Ministry did have time to add that the claim of arrests of Russian nationals is a filthy lie and if anyone has a complaint they can call the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

The website of the Ministry will be worth checking out over the next week or so.


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Sven
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posted 11 August 2008 11:35 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

Would you support the Russian incursion if in fact the Georgians were engaged in ethnic cleansing as is being reported?

I don't know.

Is that the new standard for unilateral military action?


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 11 August 2008 11:50 AM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So Sven tell us why you think the Georgian attack on the people of South Ossetia was justified? Would you accept a Canadian attack on Quebec if it separated? They had a referendum saying no to Georgia so the people have spoken.
From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 11 August 2008 11:58 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
So Sven tell us why you think the Georgian attack on the people of South Ossetia was justified? [snip] They had a referendum saying no to Georgia so the people have spoken.

I just think it's hilarious that many babblers who worship at the altar of the multinational U.N. (no unilateral military action is legally justified) would even think of blessing unilateral military action by the Russians.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 August 2008 12:00 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A listing of news reports and events from Interfax. The stories are mostly behind a subscription wall.

quote:
19:39 Camp of refugees from South Ossetia deplorable - French foreign minister
18:59 Russian troops pull out of Senaki - Russian Defense Ministry
18:48 Women, children evacuated from Kodori gorge in Abkhazia - Georgian massmedia
18:44 Saakashvili urges Tbilisi population not to yield to panic
18:33 Russian peacekeepers have no plans to advance on Tbilisi - RussianDefense Ministry
18:27 Russian troops allegedly on approaches to Tbilisi - Georgian DefenseMinistry
18:23 Mironov calls on western media to report on Georgians' atrocities inTskhinvali
18:21 Direct confrontation between Russia, U.S. over conflict in Georgiaunlikely - Mironov
18:10 Russia shouldn't get into conflict with world over S. Ossetia - Yablokoleader
18:04 Russian troops have reached road connecting eastern and western parts ofGeorgia - Saakashvili
17:59 Russian prosecutors look to register accounts of S. Ossetian victims
17:53 No Russians arrested in Georgia - deputy foreign minister
17:51 Georgian troops need to leave conflict area - Lavrov
17:47 Georgia should sign agreement on non-use of force with S. Ossetia -Lavrov (Part 2)
17:39 Saakashvili orders troops to fight, urges people to rally
17:36 French foreign minister meets with refugees from S. Ossetia
17:35 Militants in Ingushetia intensify - the republic's interior minister
17:21 No Russian troops in Gori - Russian Defense Ministry
17:08 NATO's reaction to events in South Ossetia attests to inadequateperception - Russian Foreign Ministry (Part 2)
17:07 Georgia should sign agreement on non-use of force with S. Ossetia -Lavrov
16:57 Russian troops enter Gori - Georgian media

The reports regarding Gori, and now Senaki, suggest that the Russians are still trying to keep the moral high ground here. They seem to be taking out military placements that could be used to attack South Ossetia or Abkhazia and then backing off.

Edited to add: we have

quote:
MOSCOW. Aug 11 (Interfax) - Russian peacekeepers, supported by regular troops, have eliminated the threat of new strikes on South Ossetia and the peacekeepers' positions from the area of the town of Senaki, where the 2nd Georgian Infantry Brigade was deployed, and pulled out of the city, a source in the Russian Defense Ministry has told Interfax.

Given the BS statements of ceasefires, including the initial one that preceded the slaughter in South Ossetia to start things off, I can understand why they would prefer such an approach to waiting for another slaughter and then responding. But it's a fine line.

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 11 August 2008 12:04 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sigh!!

Again no dialogue or answer to respectful questions just restate your dig at Babblers.

So answer the fucking question already, do you think Georgia has the right to occupy South Ossetia? That has to be the initial question before one even contemplates what to make of the Russian response. The initial unilateral military incursion was by the Georgians, why are you focusing on the response without looking at the initial attack.


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 August 2008 12:14 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It looks like some babblers share the view, outlined by Stephen Cohen and others, that Russia has NO legitimate security interests and that, therefore, they should just allow Georgia, with its billion in miltary "aid" from NATO countries (and Israel up to quite recently), to walk in, kill hundreds of Ossetians, many of whom have Russian passports, and carry out an ethnic cleansing. The stupidity, not to say dangerousness, of such a view is self-evident and doesn't rise to the level of really needing much of a response.

South Ossetia, however, was just practice for Georgia. I still think Abkhazia is the bigger prize and the real goal of Georgia's attacks.

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 11 August 2008 12:18 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
So answer the fucking question already, do you think Georgia has the right to occupy South Ossetia?

Let’s assume, for the sake of discussion, the answer is “No”.

What I’m trying to divine here is a consistent principle.

Country A engages in ethnic cleansing of Group X within Country A. Group X wants to separate from Country A and become part of Country B. Therefore, it is permissible for Country B to attack Country A to stop the ethnic cleansing.

Is that now an example of when unilateral military action by Country B is legally permissible without any U.N. involvement or approval whatsoever?

Does this principle continue to apply if Group X is “merely” being ethnically cleansed but does not want to become part of Country B?


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 11 August 2008 12:25 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Very nice encapsulation of the NATO attack on Serbia in 1999, Sven. I am glad you have discovered the search for "consistent principles".
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 August 2008 12:26 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Concrete analysis, especially when lives are at stake, trump abstract rule-making almost every time.

By the way, here's a map:

...Edited to add: on second thought, this thread is too long and the map could go on the next thread.

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 11 August 2008 12:28 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Concrete analysis, especially when lives are at stake, trump abstract rule-making almost every time.

I see. So principles (and, presumably, international laws) are merely "abstract rules"?


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 August 2008 12:29 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
See what I mean? You've already forgotten about South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and so on.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 11 August 2008 12:31 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:

Country A engages in ethnic cleansing of Group X within Country A. Group X wants to separate from Country A and become part of Country B. Therefore, it is permissible for Country B to attack Country A to stop the ethnic cleansing.

Is that now an example of when unilateral military action by Country B is legally permissible without any U.N. involvement or approval whatsoever?

Does this principle continue to apply if Group X is “merely” being ethnically cleansed but does not want to become part of Country B?


Back to the start okay. Who gets to determine that Group X was part of Country A? The people didn't in fact they have refuted that Georgian claim since the 1990's when it was first presented to them by Georgia as a fait accompli.

If Group X is within neither Country A or Country B should one's neighbours allow Georgia to unilaterally declare differently and then invade?


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 11 August 2008 12:32 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Russia is merely applying the new principles of the world order as set out by Bill Clinton in 1999. Direct intervention in the affairs of a sovereign nation is allowed, on the premise that it fits a humanitarian purpose. Such military actions are not limited to the territory in question but may also be applied to the national territory of the "belligerent" nation.

See: Kosovo Crisis, 1999.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 11 August 2008 12:32 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, N.Beltov, if there is ethnic cleansing going on in Serbia, Rwanda, Darfur, etc., etc., etc., then unilateral military action by an outside country is legally justified, regardless of what the U.N. may or may not think?

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: Sven ]


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 11 August 2008 12:34 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
Back to the start okay. Who gets to determine that Group X was part of Country A? The people didn't in fact they have refuted that Georgian claim since the 1990's when it was first presented to them by Georgia as a fait accompli.

If Group X is within neither Country A or Country B should one's neighbours allow Georgia to unilaterally declare differently and then invade?


So, it's an issue of self-determination, not genocide?

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: Sven ]


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 11 August 2008 12:35 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
If there is ethnic cleansing going on in Serbia, Rwanda, Darfur, etc., etc., etc., then unilateral military action by an outside country is legally justified, regardless of what the U.N. may or may not think?

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: Sven ]


Yes, according to the principles of international relations first defined by Bill Clinton, and then applied by the Bush adminstration in Iraq. Complaints by the US in terms of the breech of sovereignty of Gerogia are absurd and hypocritical for those who defend the actions of past US adminstrations.

In other words, you lost the moral battle a long time ago, largely because you have no principles at all and use a political framework defined entirely by prejudice and partisan loyalty.

In short: You are a joke.

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
leftyboy
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posted 11 August 2008 12:51 PM      Profile for leftyboy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

Regardless they are still running around moving "bodies" and setting up shots. The credibility of this series of photographs is totally compromised, whatever reason you can come up with to assert the notion that the man is dead, the fact is there is no reason to believe anything that is said about them.


How are they compromised? There is no context about when the photos were taken. From what I see they are taken from different angles at different times of the day, but look like to be in the same area. There is a common wall in both photos. The guy cradling the body is not the same guy in black from the first photo and I would move the body to see if it was someone I loved.

As for the man on the ground, look at his legs. His left leg is turned fully over and hyper extended, an extremely uncomfortable position if one was going to fake being dead.

Just because you keep saying the photos are fake does not make them any less real.

Besides one photo does not the truth make.

BBC

Bloomberg


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 11 August 2008 12:58 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They are compromised because the actors are changing clothes and positions, and setting up shots. They are fake.

I have no doubt some people have been killed. It is unlikely that this is photgraphic evidence of this. They are propoganda photos, that is all.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
leftyboy
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posted 11 August 2008 01:02 PM      Profile for leftyboy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by oldgoat:

Leftboy, I just noticed your terminilogy. Sexist and demeaning. Please don't tell me I have to explain why. Fix it and behave.


fine I will substitute "dumbass" [noun (slang) A person marked by stupidity or foolishness] for "twat" [noun (slang) A person regarded as stupid or obnoxious.] but he/she was condescending, dismissive and rude.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 11 August 2008 01:09 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bloomberg

quote:
U.S. Republican presidential candidate John McCain called for an international diplomatic response to what he termed ``Russian aggression'' in Georgia.

McCain said Moscow's attempt at ``toppling a democratically elected government'' is ``unacceptable to all the democratic countries of the world and should draw us together in universal condemnation of Russian aggression.''

Russia has said its actions are justified by what it calls a Georgian-waged ``genocide'' in South Ossetia. Russia says most of those killed in the conflict are civilians who died through Georgian military action.

Fighting spread over the weekend to Abkhazia, another separatist region which like South Ossetia is seeking independence from Georgia. Russia sent 9,000 troops there in addition to a 3,000-strong peacekeeping force on the ground.

Georgia is a key link in the U.S.-backed ``southern energy corridor'' that connects the Caspian Sea region with world markets, bypassing Russia. The BP Plc-led Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline to Turkey runs about 100 kilometers (60 miles) south of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.


I love the respect that America has for democratically elected governments.

Referendums of the people of the area rejecting Georgian claims are apparently as undemocratic as were the winning elections of Putin, Morales and Chavez and Hamas. Democracy for America is a fluid term defined primarily by whether the people elected like America. By that definition of course the CIA backed Georgian dictator is a democratic leader being that he supports America. Don't let these people change your mind though.

Georgia Cracks Down on Dissent

quote:
Saakashvili, appearing on national television early in the night, said the violence pained his heart, but defended the police and the decision to deploy them, and called on the public to cease protests.

He blamed Russian intelligence services for coordinating elements of the demonstration, and said that several Russian diplomats would be expelled from the country. He made no clear concessions, but offered to enter talks with the opposition.

"We should start a dialogue," he said. He also promised to restore order, "so that everything will return to the framework of a democratic dialogue," according to regional wire reports.

A short while later, the opposition television station went off the air.

Saakashvili's government faced an enraged opposition and widespread unease about its actions. Reached by telephone shortly after the first police sweeps, Sozar Subari, the country's human rights ombudsman, denounced the government's use of force and suggested that Georgia, which had undertaken many reforms since 2003, had stepped sharply backward.

"Georgia is now the same as Lukashenko's Belarus," he said, referring to a post-Soviet state that much of the West has labeled a dictatorship. A woman could be heard screaming in the background.

Subari later called the police action "illegal" and said he himself, Georgia's official human rights representative, had been beaten by the police. "Even after I declared that I am the ombudsman, they beat me more," he said.

The United States, the Saakashvili government's principal foreign sponsor and mentor, had no immediate response.


So who cares whether the photos are doctored don't you think we should all be condemning the corrupt dictatorship in Georgia that has invaded South Ossetia?

From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 11 August 2008 01:10 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think they are doctored. They are just set up. Badly.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 11 August 2008 01:11 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Apparently Old Goat this "gay" man does not get sexism against women and the fact that pejorative terms applied to people can be very hurtful. Go figure.

Do you think he is using long lines or a net?


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 11 August 2008 01:13 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let's not get into this, in that way.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 11 August 2008 01:18 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry Cueball but this guy was given a chance to retract an extremely sexist comment and chose to attack instead implying that the use of offensive terms is okay if you can find them in a dictionary. If he is really a gay man fine but he is certainly not like any left wing gay man that I know. So I presume that one or both of his claims, to being a Leftyboy or gay, are untrue and therefore he is most likely here to troll.
From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 11 August 2008 01:27 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is the internet. You have to take what people say about themselves at face value. There is not point in questioning these things, and if one is wrong one only creates more bad blood, in my opinion. For one thing being gay does not exclude one from adopting sexist and also racist terminology that is common in everyday usage, nor in fact outright sexism and racism. I find that gay people are usually more sensitive to these things, but no one is immune, and "twat" is a common derogatory term.

...and then there are the issues at hand.

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
M.Gregus
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posted 11 August 2008 01:33 PM      Profile for M.Gregus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Please contact a moderator if you are having problems with another poster. Closing here for length.
From: capital region | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged

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