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Author Topic: The Netherlands in numbers
Clog-boy
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posted 21 January 2006 09:30 PM      Profile for Clog-boy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is a site I thought some of you might find interesting.

CBS Netherlands

It's the site from our CBS (Central Bureau for Statistics). You can find a lot of statistics and information about the Netherlands concerning Population and Society; Government and Politics (maybe interesting during your own elections, comparing our current and previous governments?); Labour, Income and Social Security; etc.

There's a lot of useful information about the Netherlands, though there are some figures which I'd call at least misleading or misrepresenting (which I might get slapped in the face with, so be it... I live here, I don't run the country)
One of those statistics is this for example:
Benefit recipients by ethnic background
Rightwingers would love to use this to show more non-natives are receiving somekind of benefit than natives, but it leaves out the reasons why they're more dependent on benefit than non-natives. Though the numbers are real, so are the stories behind them.

Alas, judge thyselves...

[ 21 January 2006: Message edited by: Clog-boy ]


From: Arnhem, The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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Babbler # 2534

posted 21 January 2006 09:38 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks for that detailed site! I'm sending it to a friend who has moved back here (Montréal) after several years in Mokum.

Hmm... parents prefer to raise children in rural areas. Important to indicate how small and densely-populated the Netherlands is: no rural area is terribly far from Amsterdam, Rotterdam, the Hague etc.

And "young men heaviest drinkers" ... is that really such a surprise?


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Clog-boy
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posted 21 January 2006 09:58 PM      Profile for Clog-boy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You're welcome, I hope your friend is pleased with it!

quote:

no rural area is terribly far from Amsterdam, Rotterdam, the Hague etc

Indeed, you're right, but people are so afraid of the Green Heart (the "triangle" between A'dam, R'dam and the Hague) is clogging up (and I'm not refering to my footwear).
The cities and villages start expanding towards eachother, thus filling up more and more rural space. Eventually, the entire triangle would melt together into one major city, with maybe some tinhy specs of rural inbetween. They already call that south-west part of the country the Randstad (rough trans: The Edge-city).
But I say would, because if our government keeps their word, it's looking after maintaining a balance in that part of the country.

But then again, we Dutch have seen and experienced how well my government keep it's word...

quote:
And "young men heaviest drinkers" ... is that really such a surprise?

Nope, not to me it wasn't, although I was kinda suprised by the level to which it has risen now. Our youth seem to be the most regular and heavy drinkers of Europe, even outdrinking the notorious Polish and Hungarians. It's kinda worrying, but hopefully this alarm will wake some parents up..

[ 21 January 2006: Message edited by: Clog-boy ]


From: Arnhem, The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Heavy Sharper
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posted 21 January 2006 10:41 PM      Profile for Heavy Sharper        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What do you think of Pim Fortuyn's argument that "The Netherlands is full"?

While I dislike some of the anti-immigrant sentiment behind it (even though his anti-immigration sentiments, rather than being derived from traditional far-right bigotry (You can save the ideological bashing for his Thatecherite economics and his opposition to enviromentally sound policies) were driven by a desire to preserve socialism liberalism, especially with regards to gay rights and cannabis use, in the Netherlands...Remember, the main reason for his disliking Islam was that he made Muslim extremists angry by being very open about the fact that he was a flamboyantly gay pothead.), I think that shoving half of Canada's population into a landmass the size of Maryland is already silly enough as it is...

Send your immigrants and refugees here: We don't have enough people to fund the infrastructure that our large landmass requires.

[ 21 January 2006: Message edited by: Heavy Sharper ]


From: Calgary | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 21 January 2006 11:49 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Heavy Sharper:
Send your immigrants and refugees here: We don't have enough people to fund the infrastructure that our large landmass requires.

[ 21 January 2006: Message edited by: Heavy Sharper ]


We've got 30 million people, and we've got a shitload of natural resources that are being carted-off to the States every day at bargain basement prices. We do need professional and skilled workers, but the feds won't spend the money training Canadian's to fill the gaps. We're a frozen Puerto Rico with more oil, natural gas, timber, hydro-electric/gas/coal-fired/nuclear power and mineral wealth than most rich nations. How can our right-wing governments fuck up such a spectacular hand ?.

"Never let the colonies make so much as a hairpin." - Ben Disraeli on Brtish colonialism

And we don't. We've got timber up the wazoo, and we import chainsaws from Finland and Sweden fcs!


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 22 January 2006 06:29 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's another Dutch item - a story on updating the lexicon, and also on learning the language: Dutch spell out their confusion.

Fidel, not just chainsaws, but the combine-type machines loggers use nowadays are often made in Scandinavia.

I'm very leery of anyone who says "the boat is full". The Netherlands is a small, densely populated country, but the perceived problems with immigrants and their children relate to an inability to integrate certain migrant groups, who are forming into ghettoes. It is a complex problem - obviously fuelled by ethnocentrism, but solutions have proved difficult, even among those of good will.

But I think such problems will plague all rich countries, not just the Netherlands. They had no problem colonising faraway lands much larger than themselves.

Interesting though, there doesn't seem to be so much trouble with the social integration of immigrants from Indonesia, the huge land that was formerly the Dutch East Indies, although their cultures are very different from those of Western Europe, and they are also a predominantly Muslim society.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Clog-boy
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posted 22 January 2006 08:41 AM      Profile for Clog-boy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
Interesting though, there doesn't seem to be so much trouble with the social integration of immigrants from Indonesia, the huge land that was formerly the Dutch East Indies, although their cultures are very different from those of Western Europe, and they are also a predominantly Muslim society

A quick recap of the Dutch-Indonesian situation:

In 1901 the Ethical Politics (EP) were estabilshed. This was created out of an honourary debt, felt towards Indonesia by the Dutch government. They felt guilty about the ages of abuse and exploitation.
The EP had three core principles: Irrigation, emigration and education. The infrastructure and welfare rose, but more important, the greatly improved education caused a small group of intellectuals to dicover the principle of nationlism.
The intention of this all was to make Indonesia more prosperous and independent, but they failed in the latter. In time, Indonesian got some say in matters, but the participation was restricted to a local and provincial level.

The nationalism started to grow and the Dutch reluctantly saw their position deteriorate. The unwillingness of the Dutch to share control lead to the embittering of the Nationalists.
Indonesian National parties, the first to demand independence for Indonesia, were first estanlished in 1912.
These National Parties were outlawed in 1927 by the Dutch, afer the Dutch having (violently!) put down a lot of aggresive uproars and revolts in the years inbetween.

In WWII (to be exact the 8th of March 1942) the Dutch were driven from Indonesia by Japan. An unconditional surrender was forced upon the occupiers and all signs of Dutch influence were immediately wiped out. Statues were torn down, the Dutch language was forbidden, townnames were changed (for example, the name of the capital Batavia was changed into the current Jakarta)

Self-awareness was stimulated by the Japanese, yet the high positions again remained with the Japanese, out of reach of the Indonesians.
After the war, on the 18th of August 1945, the independence of Indonesia was declared. Only one minor problem: the Dutch refused to accept this independence. The Dutch tried to establish peaceful negotiations over sharing power and government with the Indonesians, but the Indonesians refused to acknowledge the Dutch position.
The following years are some of the blackest pages in our recent history. During the Politionele Acties some of our greatest atrocities have been commited.
A lost struggle was fought with the elusive guerillas, killing many, many Indonesians... After giving up the struggle and clinging onto New Guinea, the Dutch eventually got themselves into an actual war the independent Indonesians in 1956. The Indonesians demanded New Guinea back and declared war on the Netherlands. The Netherlands wasn't supported by the U.S., instead the Dutch were forced to relinquish control over Indonesia to the U.S.
On the 1st of May 1963, control over Indonesia was given back to the Indonesians, at last...
350 years of occupation had come to an end.

After the Independence of Indonesia, the Dutch never have acknowledged commiting atrocities or being wrong at the time. But last year, finally somekind of excuse was formally made by a Dutch government representative.


So much for the recap...

Now, the refugees coming to the Netherlands from Indonesia (and the Moluccas) were mostly former KNIL soldiers and their families. Also other people who sympathised with the Dutch government fled from Indonesia after the start of independence in the years 1945-'49.
Just realised that although I've grown up with some Moluccas and later on had an Indonesian friend, I've hardly heard any of them mentioning the Islam. Afai can remember, they were all Catholic, Reformed or Baptist (even Jehova's witnesses among them).

When I just read your post, I wondered: "Huh, muslims? Oh wait, yeah, Indonesia is the most populous Muslim-majority nation in the world. How come I never noticed this among my friends?!"
I've got a gnawing feeling I once knew the solution, but I just can put my finger on it. Maybe the refugees were all Christians fleeing from a Muslim majority, which had been oppressed for ages. I believe it was something like that.
But afaik, not many Indonesians here in the Netherlands are muslim (although they were the first muslims to settle in the Netherlands in 1947)

[ 22 January 2006: Message edited by: Clog-boy ]


From: Arnhem, The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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Babbler # 2534

posted 22 January 2006 10:51 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That is interesting, Clog-boy, and thanks for the report on Dutch colonial atrocities. I knew about them, but didn't have an accurate historical report on hand. (Of course the Netherlands is certainly not the only colonising nation to have committed such crimes - its neighbour of about the same size, Belgium, or rather the Belgian king himself, committed even worse ones in the Congo, and larger nations such as the UK and France have done so in many parts of the world, "au temps béni des colonies", when the sun didn't set, etc etc.)

I had seen Dutch people of Indonesian descent at Muslim religious events so I didn't think of them being of any other religion, though of course Indonesia is made up of a myriad cultures, religions, languages and traditions...

Nor do I want to convey the (Fortuyn-friendly) idea that Muslim immigrants are somehow difficult to integrate through their cultural nature! Just looking at what seemed to me (looking as an ignorant, outside observer) at what seemed to be very different outcomes for different ethnic groups. Most of the complaints about "ghettoised" immigrants in the Netherlands bear upon Turkish and more recently Moroccan immigrants.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Clog-boy
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posted 22 January 2006 07:37 PM      Profile for Clog-boy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I had seen Dutch people of Indonesian descent at Muslim religious events so I didn't think of them being of any other religion, though of course Indonesia is made up of a myriad cultures, religions, languages and traditions...

They probably were muslims. I hope I didn't give you the impression I was saying you were wrong. I just have never given it much thought. That I learned at school that Indonesia is a Muslim-majority nation, yet none of my childhood friends with Indonesian roots were muslim. I'm still puzzled by that fact, as shown in my previous post. So there probably are numerous Indonesian muslims in the Netherlands, I just haven't had contact with them. Maybe I'll ask some of my muslim friends if they know anything about this.

quote:
Nor do I want to convey the (Fortuyn-friendly) idea that Muslim immigrants are somehow difficult to integrate through their cultural nature!

Nor do I wish to, though I think there would be one thing that would help muslims integrate more easily. Unfortunately, muslims are very strict about marriage with non-muslims. You have to become a muslim in order to marry one, so that raises somekind of threshold for non-muslims. Some of the natives that turn muslim to marry the girl they love, receive no sympathy or understanding from their own relatives. Some might even be cast out of their family. Xenophobia is a strange thing...
But if it were easier for muslims and non-muslims to get married, I think much more muslims would have been married to a native. That way more Dutch people would have a muslim "connected" to their family. IMO, that might work miracles (both ways!). If you got a muslim in your family (or a non-muslim in your muslim family), you'd be forced to deal with and learn about/from eachother.
You can walk past your muslim neighbour on a daily base, without ever granting him one word or glance. But you could hardly ignore your muslim cousin at your grandmother's birthday, eh..?
I'm not saying it'll be easy or without resistance from both sides ("Marrying to a muslimgirl? Boy, are you out of your miiind...?!"), but that's just the kind of xenophobic prejudice that could be rooted out by getting to know the xenophee's...

Maybe this would also indirectly solve the problem of ghetto forming. Lots of objections to live next to a muslim/non-muslim could be taken away.

But here's another thought, brought up by you mentioning Fortuyn...
In 2002, politician Pim Fortuyn is shot and killed by a white collar left-wing environmentalist, and it's called an assasination.
In 2004, film director, television producer, publicist and actor Theo van Gogh is shot and murdered by a Moroccan muslim, and all of a sudden it's an act of terrorism.
Both Fortuyn and Van Gogh were killed in a gruesome make-sure liquidation, both in broad day light, both in public. And both becaue the killers wanted to silence them for their outspoken opinions. Why's one a terrorist act and the other a plain, yet horrible assasination...? IMO, the terrorism in the Netherlands has sofar been highly exagerated. Maybe my government is adopting the U.S. policy of "Get Funds with Fear", I dunno...

[ 22 January 2006: Message edited by: Clog-boy ]


From: Arnhem, The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged

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