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Author Topic: Le Pen visits the BNP (bad dream...?)
lagatta
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posted 25 April 2004 10:54 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fortunately several people in Manchester opposed these fascist shitheads from both sides of La Manche: http://www.guardian.co.uk/farright/story/0,11981,1203408,00.html
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Marc
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posted 26 April 2004 01:17 AM      Profile for Marc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's pretty bad when Nick Griffin makes Le Pen look like a moderate.

quote:
He [Le Pen] denied that he was a racist and said that his party welcomed "all colours and denominations", a statement at odds with the BNP's whites-only policy.

Nick Griffin said: "When we have a white Police Officers' Association, just as we have a black one, then the BNP will be open to everyone. We are here to represent the white majority."



From: Calgary, AB | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 26 April 2004 10:17 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The British papers are so much fun, aren't they? The Grope told us this morning about Le Pen's car being pelted with garbage as he left, but would never give us this sort of lively re-creation of the first encounter, and barely told us what Le Pen and Griffin had to say. The Guardian has laid out just enough to indicate how self-contradictory the nationalist racists are.

[ 26 April 2004: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
1st Person
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posted 26 April 2004 01:53 PM      Profile for 1st Person        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I loved that article in The Guardian...it made EVERYONE look like idiots.
From: Kingston | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Willowdale Wizard
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posted 26 April 2004 04:23 PM      Profile for Willowdale Wizard   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
er, you loved how the article made the anti-racists who challenged le pen look like idiots?

hmmm.


From: england (hometown of toronto) | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Eauz
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posted 26 April 2004 08:14 PM      Profile for Eauz   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

Looks a little grumpy here, or is it me?

[ 26 April 2004: Message edited by: Eauz ]


From: New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
1st Person
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posted 27 April 2004 04:35 PM      Profile for 1st Person        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Willowdale - ALL of them.

I love this description:

"Two children carrying a dog basket emerged from a pet shop and hissed "idiots" - it wasn't clear to whom - while a clergywoman in a dog collar arrived carrying a banner reading Manchester Against Racism."


From: Kingston | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 27 April 2004 04:45 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I realize that as a cop, you are going to have a bias against legal demonstrators. This might explain why you would call anti-Le Pen protestors idiots. It's wrong-headed, but I think I understand where your bias comes from.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 27 April 2004 05:07 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
While throwing rocks and garbage at someone might have a visceral thrill — in that "kicking the dog" kind of way — isn't the best revenge on public representatives and wannabes simply to not vote for them?
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 27 April 2004 05:23 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fighting fascist scum has nothing in common with kicking some poor dog. More power to the demonstrators.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 27 April 2004 05:34 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But why is voting representatives out of office (or never letting them into office in the first place) not a more meaningful, and frankly mature, way to go?

I referred to kicking the dog because throwing rocks and trash seems a little like acting out emotionally, at least when practiced by adults. I'm not saying they shouldn't be angry, but when did that anger begin to mean "anything goes"?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 27 April 2004 11:10 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
After the conference, Mr Le Pen's car was greeted by a hail of eggs, rocks and waste bins before he headed off for a private BNP-sponsored dinner near Oswestry.


At the car. A subtle difference.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 28 April 2004 11:33 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Very subtle.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 28 April 2004 11:38 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No all that subtle. I can see myself throwing rocks at a bastard's car, but I'd hesitate throwing one at his head. It's a judgement call. Life's like that.

[ 28 April 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 28 April 2004 11:48 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My point is — and "car" or "head" makes no difference to it — that he's a man looking to be elected, so that presumably he can institute regressive policies, so why not just don't elect him?

In other words, he's not a dictator, he's not the local warlord, he doesn't have the population oppressed under his boot. He's trying to get himself elected in a democracy — something we all have the right to do, no? — so what's the need of hurling rocks at him/his car/whatever? Just seems a little juvenile in a case like this.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 28 April 2004 11:57 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I know what your point is. You're asking a question which has an obvious answer just to make the statement that this behaviour is over the top and juvenile.

Why? Why do you do this Magoo? You know how it upsets me...


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 28 April 2004 12:08 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The answer is obvious to me, yes. But I don't know that it's obvious to those with a different opinion of something like this, so I'm curious what their answer is. I don't think it's an unfair question to ask: what makes throwing rocks and garbage at a man, even a man with repugnant ideas, a good or necessary thing?
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 28 April 2004 12:37 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's not a good idea. But I can understand where the anger comes from. Le Pen is a racist bastard who just happens to spew his bile while wearing a suit and tie. I'm willing to accept that his presence will illicit overreactions in some people. I'm willing to forgive people who take racists to task.

Anyway, from the tone of the Guardian article, most of the opposition to Le Pen was verbal. The car-harmers represented a minority of those people who gathered to fight racism.

[ 28 April 2004: Message edited by: Sarcasmobri ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 28 April 2004 01:01 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But Magoo is not merely chastising the antifascists for some juvenile behaviour. His conception of democracy is simply going to the polls every four years or whatever, and otherwise remaining passive while the fascists organise. Democracy is not just voting; popular protests are an essential facet.

Smash fascism!

A bas, à bas
Le Front national
F - comme fasciste et
N - comme Nazi -

à bas!


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
swallow
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posted 28 April 2004 01:05 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eauz:

Looks a little grumpy here, or is it me?


He looks like, after swimming along the bottom of the ocean for millenia, he has just eaten a worm.


From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 28 April 2004 01:50 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
His conception of democracy is simply going to the polls every four years or whatever, and otherwise remaining passive while the fascists organise.

Ah. So anything other than hurling rocks is "passive"? He and his ilk can organize, but you can't, outside of throwing garbage at him?

You're typically a sensible person, but when the topic of far right agitators like Le Pen comes up, it's out the window and "anything goes". I expect people to be angry when they hear repugnant ideas, but as adults I also hope we can all handle that anger accordingly. Even for the likes of Le Pen, there are limits, don't you think?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 28 April 2004 02:02 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Ah. So anything other than hurling rocks is "passive"? He and his ilk can organize, but you can't, outside of throwing garbage at him?

There is always a dilemna when protesting something. Peaceful protests will be overshadowed violent protests, even when the violent people represent a small minority. What are activists to do? Stop protesting because there's a potential that things can get a little heated? There'll never be another protest again, anywhere.

You can't just voice concern over Le Pen during election campaigns. Why? Because Le Pen himself doesn't remain silent, or lose influence, between campaigns. He is often, for unwarranted reasons, at the forefront of French politics and news. He travels around Europe meeting with other influential racists. That sort of coverage and politicking has to be tackled head on, in France and, when he travels, abroad. Sitting at home worrying over whether some fellow protestors could cross the line is no solution.

[ 28 April 2004: Message edited by: Sarcasmobri ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 28 April 2004 02:05 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, God, a lecture on temperance and decorum. Pardon me Magoo, while I roll my thighs like they taught me in charm school.

Yes, I'm mocking you...but c'mon on. These racists are going too far by co-opting the political process that reasonnable people such as ourselves are committed to defending. They have to know that there are limits. It's good to show them now and again.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 28 April 2004 02:18 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Odd, if you read my post I referred to "some juvenile behaviour" (the throwing of rubbish and stones, etc.) Rowdiness, but of a relatively minor sort. No, I do not advocate throwing rubbish at cars. Yes, I do advocate protesting fascists wherever they speak.

Le Pen is not merely an elected official or wannabe elected official. He was a torturer in the Algerian war, a friend of unrepentant Nazis and collaborators (and of the Italian fascists in the MSI, whose symbol the FN copied, changing the colours of the flame to those of France). He has been convicted several times of incitement to racial hatred and of Holocaust denial. Just recently, he was barred from the European Parliament for ASSAULT against a Socialist Party woman candidate for the MEP race.

I believe it would be criminally abetting race hatred and violence to stand by passively while he speaks. In France, almost everyone on the left, far from refusing the ballot box, held their noses and voted for Chirac (yecch!) to deny Le Pen not only a victory but a significant vote in the second round of elections there.

I believe it is highly sensible to militantly oppose race-haters.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged

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