It's a tough one, too, because she's generally so antithetical to feminism on the whole. All that booty-baring, body-shaking, self-selling (though we wonder if it's really HER selling herself, I know)...

But she is a woman, and maybe it does count as misogyny. Maybe especially because there are so many young women and girls trying thir hardest to emulate her, to disparage her is also disparaging all of them?

quote:

---

Why Hate someone based on appearance when, if you just take the time to get to know them, you can find so many more valid reasons to loathe and despise them?

---

She is a hand me down. First the industry A team exploits her for all she is worth and then she is dropped to the industry B Team, the scavengers to rip her apart and leave nothing behind but sun bleached hair and bones.

Overall, it depends on what the criticism is and how consistent the critic is ie if you criticise Brittney Spears for vacuity but don't give, say, Ricky Martin the same treatment then you may be practicing a double standard. If the only singers you criticise are female singers there definitely may be some mysogyny at play.

Personally, I don't spend much time criticising Brittney Spears. I prefer to praise singers I like such as Kate Bush, Sarah McLaughlin, Holly Cole, Tom Waits, Annie Lennox and yes, Bif Naked

[ December 18, 2002: Message edited by: Mycroft ]

Take "antie.com" for example - I certainly hope the real Judy Rebick is a kinder and more considerate person than that character people "love to hate."

This sort of role-play is a relatively new protest paradigm - just look at the "Million Billioniares March" for example during the last US Presidential election.

P.S.

quote:

---

Britney [sic] Spears

---

quote:

---

I don't personally have that big a problem with Britney Spears. I think it's dumb to say she has no talent - she dances well, performs well, and while we may not be crazy about her style of music, she sings well within her genre. She's no more "processed" than any other musical group that's popular with the teeny-bopper set.

---

quote:

---

You really think Avril Lavigne is less media friendly than Britney [sic] Spears?

---

Don't forget, to Britney Speers (is that the right spelling?) dancing is a big part of her performing. Why shouldn't she wear revealing clothing to do that? Why shouldn't she be sexual?

quote:

---

So if I wear revealing clothing it means I must be "selling it" instead of just glorying in my body and having fun?

---

I would want to know if you were an adult and if it was your idea or whether you were being manipulated. Alanice Morrisette is agood example. As a teenager her handlers packaged her and when she became a young adult she said I will control my own material and image. It is not the clothes but the message, a woman can dress and act with explicit sexuality and not come off as a whore and the same clothes depending on the body language and words can led to the view that they are for sale. Again one of the problems I have with Britney's image is her age ( at least when she first started) And now that she is a little older she is being dumped by her sponsors etc.

quote:

---

It is not the clothes but the message, a woman can dress and act with explicit sexuality and not come off as a whore and the same clothes depending on the body language and words can led to the view that they are for sale.

---

I don't understand. What exactly makes one woman who dresses and acts sexually suggestive "come off as a whore" and another woman who dresses and acts sexually suggestive not come off as a whore?

quote:

---

How does Britney Speers' body language and words lead to the view that she is for sale or a whore?

---

I think it goes back to her original assertion that she "has talent". If she were 20lbs. heavier and slightly less blonde she would'nt even be in the music business, IMO. Her sex appeal and the "booty shaking" is about all she's got going for her, commercially speaking.

[ December 19, 2002: Message edited by: HoneyPot ]

In other words, is Britney revealing a lot because she wants to for her own reasons, or because her label wants her to to sell more records?

quote:

---

What exactly makes one woman who dresses and acts sexually suggestive "come off as a whore" and another woman who dresses and acts sexually suggestive not come off as a whore?

---

I think it's the combination of the lyrics, the press and the poses...Britney's lyrics are all about submission: "show me how you want it to be...hit me, baby, one more time," "don't you wanna dance upon me" (is that how it goes?), "sometimes I'm scared of you," etc. But what really disturbed me was her youth and her purported virginity. Here is someone who is sending out (or claiming to send) the message that being sexual before marriage is bad, but she's also dressing skimpily, posing suggestively, and doing videos that are veeeery blatantly sexual. She kind of epitomizes the double standard, and the contradictory expectations we expect women, especially young women, to fulfil - and because she's a public figure and she makes the contradiction really, really obvious, she gets vilified and called a hypocrite when really, it's our cultural expectations that are hypocritical.

There was an Ed the Sock (heh) monologue about it a while back, because Christina Aguilera's "Dirrty" video is so blatantly sexual that they play advisories before it, and she was getting flak for that. But, as the sock pointed out, Christina is older, publicly not a virgin (I don't really feel the need to have that information, but since we do), and she takes a much more active role in both the lyrics and the video itself. The message Britney seems to send is that it's okay to look sexual, but not to be sexual - to be wanted, but not to want. And that's unhealthy. But the blame for it hardly falls on Britney's shoulders alone.

I agree that Britney gets too much flak, by the way. She can dance fine, and she's fun to watch, and if you want high art, you shouldn't be looking in Top 40 anyway.

[ December 19, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]

quote:

---

pre-fab.

---

Anyhow, I think there is this whole madonna whore complex thing going. She was a cute virgin little school girl singing about her desires and tittlating (sp?) every guy 13-93, so as a result, she was deemed valuable based on our society. Chaste, yet eager. Then she started getting a little too eager, and as she threw off the school girl uniform and got rid of the pig tails, the chastity (or the illusion of it) went too. Then all of a sudden, she's not terribly popular anymore. She's old news, used up, not valuable because she is no longer a virgin (whether she is or not I don't know, but the image she sets forth) Anyhow, I think it just reflects on society's value of women overall.

Now where feminism kicks in. Well, there are a lot of women who also buy into the thought that so long as they're like Britney, it's all good. And society reinforces that. It's hard for most people who are fed the media every waking hour not to internalise that and certainly, if they can make a multi-million dollar career off that, why not. So do feminists support women in doing that? Depends on what type of feminist you are I reckon. I personally have difficulties advocating for women who scoff at feminist values and yet who want to be protected under them. But who am I to say that Britney is scoffing at them, she's fairly young, I don't know if she has been exposed to much and compared to the tons of women of all ages who are some way or another buying into patriarchy with no malice towards feminists, I don't think she is being the "whore" just to aggrevate me.

I think the system is largely misogynistic and much of what goes on in the system is thus misogyny. I think the fact that Britney is no longer so popular now that she is "used" is misogynistic. I think for the most part, people are simply misogynistic without even knowing what the word means. Britney being criticised for being a whore or slut or too sexual is just another part of that system.

I especially think lefties criticising her without paying attention to the framework or the patriarchy that supports and then trashes women based on a whim is misogynistic. I guess I expect more from lefties.

Also as regards her "look" the majority of her audience was and many still are very young girls. Ages ranging from 5 to 11. They were heavily influenced by her music and look. So here we have a "popular" "successful" young woman showing young girls all you need to do to get ahead is dress and dance like a stripper, be submissive to men, and get a boob job.

quote:

---

But what really disturbed me was her youth and her purported virginity. Here is someone who is sending out (or claiming to send) the message that being sexual before marriage is bad, but she's also dressing skimpily, posing suggestively, and doing videos that are veeeery blatantly sexual. She kind of epitomizes the double standard, and the contradictory expectations we expect women, especially young women, to fulfil

---

I suppose that's true. But on the other hand, haven't feminists said for ages now that how we dress and act should not be considered a "message being sent out" that we're sexually available? Doesn't the argument go that I should be able to wear a miniskirt and bustier and knee-length black leather boots, walking down the street at 2 a.m., and not be considered to be "inviting" men to harass me or rape me or assault me?

Let me give you a personal example. Every once in a while I go to Toronto to visit a friend of mine, and we get all dressed up (tarted up if you wanna know the truth ) and go dancing. The music is often suggestive, we're dressed and dancing in a way that can be construed as sexual. And yet, even though I'm open to dancing with the guys there, even dancing suggestively with the guys there, I have absolutely no intention of going home with any of them because that's just not something I really want to do. Guys try to pick us up, and ask us to go home with them, and we feel free to laugh it off and say no. I always say no, because I'm not there to get laid, just to dance and have fun.

Am I doing the "virgin/whore" thing, or am I just taking charge of my sexuality and saying, "I want to dance. I want to dress revealingly. Heck, I even want to flirt a bit and be sexually suggestive. But I don't want to fuck." Is there something wrong with that? Am I being a traitor to feminism because I'm being sexually suggestive but not following through, or am I just feeling free to have a great time in whatever way I choose, and drawing my own line?

quote:

---

Am I doing the "virgin/whore" thing, or am I just taking charge of my sexuality and saying, "I want to dance. I want to dress revealingly. Heck, I even want to flirt a bit and be sexually suggestive. But I don't want to fuck." Is there something wrong with that? Am I being a traitor to feminism because I'm being sexually suggestive but not following through, or am I just feeling free to have a great time in whatever way I choose, and drawing my own line?

---

The difference, I think, is between "I don't want to fuck right now, with you, because I just don't want to" and "I don't want to fuck anyone because it's wrong" - or, more accurately when describing the Britney attitude, "I want to fuck you but I won't because it's wrong." And again, there's the lyrics in the songs - "I'm a slave for you, born to make you happy, etc." Idunno. If you've ever heard Monica's "The First Night" (I think that's the name), there's a teen-pop message that I think is a lot more, well, empowered. Britney has been going that way to some degree herself, but I think the image that sticks with us is the teenage-virgin one.

[ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]

quote:

---

Why wear a top that shows your boobs if you dont' want them touched?

---

[ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]

quote:

---

She kind of epitomizes the double standard, and the contradictory expectations we expect women, especially young women, to fulfil - and because she's a public figure and she makes the contradiction really, really obvious, she gets vilified and called a hypocrite when really, it's our cultural expectations that are hypocritical.

---

I also find this troubling though:

quote:

---

When I hear her lyrics, I shudder. I think of all the young girls who think being like Britney is super and the message that is coming across is just fine.

---

[ December 21, 2002: Message edited by: audra estrones ]

quote:

---

Why do we presume that even young women can't see through the image? I know a few young women who in fact think Britney Spears is great, but they don't walk around with serpents for scarves, or perpetually show their butts, boobs, or bellys. I find the attitude that yound women can't see through the Spears persona as insulting to women as the image Britney broadcasts.

---

Hey, I'd love to presume that the media being exposed to women day in and out would not bring in an impact. That my friend wouldn't be overburdened at Sick Kids Hospital with teenaged women trying to look like Britney stuck in there due to eating disorders. I would love to think that every violent image (including them being subserviant to men's sexual fantasies) towards a woman being pumped through the media and condoned as the norm would have no impact. If that were the case, I would be out of a job and not having to bury my clients. The fact of the matter is that there are a lot of people out there who think what they see in the media is fine. I think even we "enlightened" lefties have our own internalised nonsense whether it is around sexism, racism, homophobia etc. And I see it day in and out on these forums by everyone, including myself.

It's not so much a matter of being intelligent or independent. It's not a matter of believing that woman can't think for themselves. It's seeing society in a larger context where we are innundated with lyrics, movies, articles, images including Britney's that continuously state in one way or another that women are property, slaves, chattel for men. I don't really mean to single Britney out, in fact, I think she's just a part of the larger whirlwind, but to think that messages such as that have no impact, I think is naive.

quote:

---

Well, you have a good point, Shenanigans. I'm just thinking that perhaps the message Britney sends (that you can dress sexily without being obliged to "put out") might not be all bad.

---

I'm all for a dressing sexily and not putting out message. I would love to see what a woman is wearing put to an end as a defense for rapists. I myself show some cleavage and wear tight clothes about 70% of the time, so I really have no problem with it. I just don't know if Britney is the best purveyor of that message since she is in that whirlwind. Maybe Le Tigre would be better, unfortunately, they're not as popular in the mainstream.