1)This approach would require a major reconciliation project, a project that would likely take decades. Do any of you see any sign, at present, that this could be started any time soon?

2)The "Maximalists" on BOTH sides...Hamas and those more violent than Hamas on the Palestinian side, the settlers, the ultra-religious/ultra-nationalists and the increasingly crazed ranks of the IDF. What's to be done about them? They need to be started on decaf and some serious primo dope, to say the least. What's going to calm them down to the point that they won't make everyone else live at their mercy.

3)The "transfer" issue...how do we avoid getting anybody kicked out in large numbers, since expulsions on either side would do more to keep violence going than anybody else(we could assume that the weapons stockpiles of the IDF, for example, could sustain a guerrilla war that could go on for many years, and Hamas could get access to enough ordnance from various sources to do the same.) This is related to question 2, of course.

4)The "religious vs. secular" issue. Related to the maximalist question to a degree, but independent of it as well. How could you get the religious crazies on both sides to give up on forcing everybody to submit to their OWN particular creed(There might also be the question of what all the U.S. evangelicals, many of whom know their way around a gun or two, might do if they thought their "last days" scenario was being disrupted.
The One State would, logically, HAVE to be secular and totally neutral on religious question. Is this at all possible in this particular war?

5 Water distribution. The hidden cause of much of the Israeli/Palestinian tension. How to resolve that to everybody's tolerance, if not outright satisfaction.

I'm not asking these questions to attack the One State idea, but I was wondering how people here might answer them.

First of all, clearly the occupation isn't working. The Bantustans aren't working. The puppet Abbas isn't succeeding. But the Palestinians are not going to go away, whatever the feverish wish of some are. And so on.

I will leave out, for obvious reasons, the view that the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians should continue until they are annihilated. Such views are far too common but are no less indefensible for it. Another 40 years of occupation, or less, may very well lead to a general regional war and Armaggedon.

Clearly, Israel and the US (and the other imperialist countries) need to stop stoking the fires of internal Palestinian conflict. They need to stop trying to carry out politicide of the Palestinians. The construction of the Apartheid wall has to stop and, in general, things must stop getting worse for the victims of occupation.

A mass solidarity movement, building on the success of the boycott called for by Palestinian trade unions and civil society organizations, along with the kind of civil rights movement outlined by Ali, would be a good start.

quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Why don't you post this in the open thread already dealing with the issue?

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That would make things less complicated, as there seem to be posts going back and forth between the two threads at this point, as indicated in N. Beltov's post.

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: Joel_Goldenberg ]

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In the other thread, I've added the question that was put to Tariq Ali and his initial remark that "it would possibly take another 50 years" to get a single state.

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CMOT Dibbler: If [the anti apartheid forces] can bring about peace in South Africa, why isn't it possible to do the same thing in Israel, which has experienced colonialism for only a hundred years?

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The liberation movement in South Africa had lessons for the whole world and is still worthy of careful study. The unbreakable solidarity and unity between the African National Congress, the Congress of South African Trade Unions, and the South African Communist Party was legendary. The movement produced leaders like Nelson Mandela, Joe Slovo, Walter Sisulu, and Chris Hani - to mention just a few - who personified the struggle.

When the Palestinians create the kind of unity necessary for liberation they will have those kinds of leaders themselves. Then they will be unstoppable. However, Tariq Ali is right; such developments take decades. That is partly because such leaders are made in the course of the struggle and so take time to nourish and harden. There is no other way.

It is instructive that some of today's leaders of the ANC, COSATU and the SACP have the courage and far-sightedness to brave the predictable attacks by Israel and her apologists and raise their voices against the terrible atrocities perpetrated on the Palestinians. How could they not? They have seen it all. And it is to the credit of our own country, we, who produced such a powerful anti-apartheid movement ourselves, that we have also produced such courageous voices. Even the COSATU leader felt compelled to acknowledge this.

However, such courage arouses the most terrible fury among the supporters of Israel's horrific policies. They hate us for our freedoms.

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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Isreal, which has experienced colonialism for only a hundred years?

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There has been colonialism in one form or another in what is now Israel since the destruction of the second temple 2,000 years ago. There were the Romans, there were Crusaders, then about a thousand years of being a Turkish colony etc...

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Originally posted by Ken Burch:
I'm open to the idea as an ultimate solution to the Israel/Palestine situation, but it seems like there are a number of questions that have to have satisfactory answers before it could work:

1)This approach would require a major reconciliation project, a project that would likely take decades. Do any of you see any sign, at present, that this could be started any time soon?

2)The "Maximalists" on BOTH sides...Hamas and those more violent than Hamas on the Palestinian side, the settlers, the ultra-religious/ultra-nationalists and the increasingly crazed ranks of the IDF. What's to be done about them? They need to be started on decaf and some serious primo dope, to say the least. What's going to calm them down to the point that they won't make everyone else live at their mercy.

3)The "transfer" issue...how do we avoid getting anybody kicked out in large numbers, since expulsions on either side would do more to keep violence going than anybody else(we could assume that the weapons stockpiles of the IDF, for example, could sustain a guerrilla war that could go on for many years, and Hamas could get access to enough ordnance from various sources to do the same.) This is related to question 2, of course.

4)The "religious vs. secular" issue. Related to the maximalist question to a degree, but independent of it as well. How could you get the religious crazies on both sides to give up on forcing everybody to submit to their OWN particular creed(There might also be the question of what all the U.S. evangelicals, many of whom know their way around a gun or two, might do if they thought their "last days" scenario was being disrupted.
The One State would, logically, HAVE to be secular and totally neutral on religious question. Is this at all possible in this particular war?

5 Water distribution. The hidden cause of much of the Israeli/Palestinian tension. How to resolve that to everybody's tolerance, if not outright satisfaction.

I'm not asking these questions to attack the One State idea, but I was wondering how people here might answer them.

And it is NOT acceptable to say "Well, the land is Palestinian, so it's just up to THEM how this comes out". The One State would have to provide the Jewish people with the same level of security and protection from antisemitic attack that they now believe Israel provides them with.
This is NOT a minor consideration, and "breaking eggs to make the omelet" is not an appropriate analogy when dealing with a community whose ancestors have been turned into omelet fillings for two milennia.

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Uri Avnery has worked hard to convince the Isreali public that the occupation is wrong, but he has faught for forty years and the settlements keep expanding. He has failed.

A one state solution may be impractical, but it is the only one left.

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
The problem is that no one, with the exception of tiny organizations like Gush Shalom and the Hadash support the creation of a viable Palistinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. [...]

Uri Avnery has worked hard to convince the Isreali public that the occupation is wrong, but he has faught for forty years and the settlements keep expanding. He has failed.

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A majority of Israelis have long opposed the settlements and an even stronger majority have supported a "two-state" solution. That's why your statements puzzled and surprised me.

Here is an example from the time Sharon was preparing to withdraw from Gaza:

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A One Voice Poll of 40,000 respondents (23,000 Palestinians, 17,000 Israelis) revealed that 76% of both Israelis and Palestinians support a two-state solution. Maariv International reported that an overwhelming 79% of Israelis "want to withdraw from Gaza." The majority of Israelis believe the settlements are harmful to the peace process and that many settlers will eventually have to relocate.

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A majority of Israelis have long opposed the settlements and an even stronger majority have supported a "two-state" solution. That's why your statements puzzled and surprised me.

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The article by Pappe is in the fourth Isreali Resistance thread.

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What was the source of your information?

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[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
A couuple of other babblers and part an article written by Ilan Pappe.

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Has anyone else noticed that some of the same people who argue for a "one-state" solution in the Middle East also seem to have a soft spot in their hearts for a "two-state solution" for Canada.

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Yeah, and by the same token some people who argue for a two-state solution in the Middle East have a soft spot in their hearts for a one-state solution in Canada.

Where does dredging up bogus historical analogies get us other than generating ill-will on yet another babbler thread?

There have been too many Mid East threads derailed by stupid arguments over side issues.

Getting back to the thread topic, it is up to the Israelis and the Palestinians to decide their own future. Most of the 'one-state' voices seem to want a religiously-based greater Israel or greater Palestine respectfully.

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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Originally posted by John K:

Getting back to the thread topic, it is up to the Israelis and the Palestinians to decide their own future.

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Lets get rid of the bourgeios government of Isreal and get rid of the wanna be bougreois parties of the palistinians ( hamas , fatah) and get the proletarian of both cultures together and start a united socialist party that integrates all the people together to make everyones lives better..

OOOps sorry , this is the wrong left winged blog to be talking about socialist answers to capitalist problems...

Here let me get back on topic... ya, so its either a "two' state bourgeois democracy or a "one" state bourgeois democracy... Ok Ill go with the "two" state one , its easier to exploit people when they are divided into different countries... no, no , wait... Ill go with the "one' state option ... taht way I don't have to deal with all the different rules of legally exploiting someone...

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: trippie ]

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: trippie ]

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: trippie ]

Some form of socialism would help.

And Steppenwolf wasn't really berating me, he'd just misinterpreted a comment I'd made up thread as an attempt to say that he wasn't welcome in this thread.

Chill, dude.

(btw, is there a Fourth International/WSW affiliate in either Israel or Palestine? just wondering.)

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

I really don't know if there is or not... I've had some contact with the people from the SEP and the WSWS .. mostly i just read their daily news analysis and ask them question ...

I have noticed that they are generating more readership and their polemics are getting stronger..

I met up with David Walsh once and asked him what their policies were.. He told me taht their main aim was to educate people through the web site and that policy was up to the people...
Do you know any Israelis or Palistinians over there/ maybe you can direct them to www.wsws.org they are looking for people in other countries to start organizing and writing for the website... of course its from a socialist international Trotsky tendency...

[ 18 June 2007: Message edited by: trippie ]

As for the maxamilists, they present a problem regardless of whether the solution is one or two states. What is needed above all is leadership. Someone on each side who will say that regardless of the provocactions, and there will be provocations, the reconciliation process will continue.

And no. Remarks claiming that Palestinians are incapable of governing themselves is not considered a serious reply. Have a nice day.

[ 19 June 2007: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

There has been colonialism in one form or another in what is now Israel since the destruction of the second temple 2,000 years ago. There were the Romans, there were Crusaders, then about a thousand years of being a Turkish colony etc...

The last time the area that is now Israel was NOT a colony was when it was a Jewish state over 2,000 years ago.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
All of Yugoslavia was a federal state from 1919 to 1993 and then it all dissolved into a vicious civil war - and this was among people in the heart of Europe who had gotten along very well up until the late 80s and who are culturally vastly more similar than are Israeli Jews and Palestinians.

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Imagine saying to the Germans and the Poles right at the end of WW2 - you are going to be one country.

On the one hand, it looks like a one-state solution would be a total failure: too much bad blood on either side.

On the other hand, South Africa has a modestly successful one-state solution: it was not divided along ethnic lines when apartheid was overthrown. And, though there are definite problems, there has been some reconciliation between the oppressors and the oppressed. Maybe this results from the fact that it was already a single state, whereas the Palestine/Israel situation is different.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Question for "Two State Solution" advocates: Please explain how a workable Palestinian state will ever take hold when Israel, the US, and many other countries do everything in their power to strangle that state in its cradle, incite fratricidal conflict among the Palestinians, provide Palestinian Quislings with money and guns, break that prospective state into ungovernable Bantustans, arrest and imprison over 3 dozen Palestinian parliamentarians (including 8 Cabinet Ministers) for over a year, spit in the face of Palestinian democracy by cutting funding to the elected Palestinian Authority that doesn't meet the approval of the occupiers, forcibly rip Palestinian families apart with the "separation" (Apartheid) wall, and so on.

And no. Remarks claiming that Palestinians are incapable of governing themselves is not considered a serious reply. Have a nice day.

[ 19 June 2007: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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I've posted a response in the new thread you started. And I hope you aren't including me in the category of people you rather snidely attacked with this post.

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1)This approach would require a major reconciliation project, a project that would likely take decades. Do any of you see any sign, at present, that this could be started any time soon?

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This one's easy: No.

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2)The "Maximalists" on BOTH sides...Hamas and those more violent than Hamas on the Palestinian side, the settlers, the ultra-religious/ultra-nationalists and the increasingly crazed ranks of the IDF. What's to be done about them? They need to be started on decaf and some serious primo dope, to say the least. What's going to calm them down to the point that they won't make everyone else live at their mercy.

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First, putting codeine in the local water supply might do it. But that would be unethical.

Second, I don't know if anything will calm all of them down. If a serious reconciliation project actually did get off the ground, I fear some of those types would oppose it simply because they have so deeply conditioned themselves on revenge and conflict, they might fear peace and unity even more.

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3)The "transfer" issue...how do we avoid getting anybody kicked out in large numbers, since expulsions on either side would do more to keep violence going than anybody else(we could assume that the weapons stockpiles of the IDF, for example, could sustain a guerrilla war that could go on for many years, and Hamas could get access to enough ordnance from various sources to do the same.) This is related to question 2, of course.

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First, we should ensure that our support for full fright-of-return for Palestinians doesn't degenerate into a real estate fight--as in people wanting to get back the houses that their grandparents were forcefully evicted from in 1948.

However, an expanded Israel-Palestine state could certainly be allowed to include the current occupied zones plus the Gaza, and maybe a deal could be cut to buy some additional Sinai land from Egypt.

Then the UN could sponsor a massive social infrastructure, housing and community economic development undertaking to get folks on their feet so they can take it from there (OK, on this one I’m ready to give up the idea. T’ain’t gonna happen no matter how much Israelis and Palestinians grow to like each other).

4)The "religious vs. secular" issue. Related to the maximalist question to a degree, but independent of it as well. How could you get the religious crazies on both sides to give up on forcing everybody to submit to their OWN particular creed(There might also be the question of what all the U.S. evangelicals, many of whom know their way around a gun or two, might do if they thought their "last days" scenario was being disrupted.
The One State would, logically, HAVE to be secular and totally neutral on religious question. Is this at all possible in this particular war?

That just it. The new state would have to be secular, have a democratic constitution that protects religious freedoms (and freedom from religion as well) and ensures full separation of church and state, as well as a fully independent and ethnically representative judiciary.

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5 Water distribution. The hidden cause of much of the Israeli/Palestinian tension. How to resolve that to everybody's tolerance, if not outright satisfaction.

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That would need to be part of a social infrastructure development program. Without a safe and relatively secure water supply, the whole idea is pointless anyway.

Beltov said:

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Clearly, Israel and the US (and the other imperialist countries) need to stop stoking the fires of internal Palestinian conflict. They need to stop trying to carry out politicide of the Palestinians. The construction of the Apartheid wall has to stop and, in general, things must stop getting worse for the victims of occupation.

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This is so skookum true--and I think it's the main reason why there has been so little progress so far. From the US regime/Corporate America perspective (as well s some of the European powers & associates), Israel was put there not mainly to provide a homeland for the European Jewish Diaspora, but to act as a listening post and destabilizer for the region--keeping the Arab states off balance.