quote:

---

Originally posted by Bobolink:
The Israelis have learned that they must support themselves Ultimately, they can depend on no one else.

---

They have? That is why they accept billions in aide and funding from the USA? That is why they pander to the Christian fundamentalists for continued access to USA funding and tourism dollars? Even in the face of them knowing that the Chrisitan fundamentalists are whacked and want to watch them die at supposedly by Jesus' hands while they watch on?

Oh forgot to say, ever wonder why Phil Fontaine is the Grand Chief, not Ovide any longer?

And wow, I am shocked that Ovide left his cushy digs over looking the inlet in the Georgia St channel by Ladysmith to become the band leader.

Good for you Ovide!

[ 23 May 2007: Message edited by: remind ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:

Oh forgot to say, ever wonder why Phil Fontaine is the Grand Chief, not Ovide any longer?

[ 23 May 2007: Message edited by: remind ]

---

Didn't Phil and other Chiefs go to Israel in the last year on a tour and love the trip?
ETA
canadian jewish news

quote:

---

“The trip has been overwhelming,” said Fontaine, who as head of the AFN represents 633 native communities and a total of 750,000 people across Canada. “It has been a real eyeopener!”

Much of the trip was dedicated to learning from Israeli experts about best practices in agriculture and the preservation of minority languages, areas of common concern for both peoples.

Participants visited the Weizmann Institute for Science in Rehovot, the Golda Meir Mount Carmel International Training Center, the Dan Fish Farms in the north (in co-operation with Israel’s Ministry of Agriculture and Rural Development), and Kibbutz Sde Eliyahu, which is involved in industries such as fish hatcheries and agriculture.

---

[ 24 May 2007: Message edited by: miles ]

quote:

---

Remind can't even keep his promise to leave Babble. -Bobolink

---

Yeah, Remind. Why don't you and your facts get out of Bobolink's way ?

quote:

---

Originally posted by miles:
Didn't Phil and other Chiefs go to Israel in the last year on a tour and love the trip?

---

Yeah, I remember that. It really helped to build bridges between the Assembly of First Nations and the Palestinian people, when Mr. Fontaine went on a junket to support the occupiers.

From the open letter the Canada Palestine Association wrote to him at the time:

quote:

---

We are saddened, hurt and shocked by the visit of a delegation of the Assembly of First Nations (AFN) to Israel, as well as the following statement attributed to AFN National Chief Phil Fontaine:

"Indigenous people in Canada have much in common with the people of Israel, including a respect of the land and their languages. This mission is an excellent opportunity for us to share our values and our traditional ways of life, in the hope of building greater understanding, awareness and respect for our similarities and differences, both at home and abroad".

The victims of genocide at the hands of European settler colonialism cannot and should not give cover for another form of settler colonialism that has committed and continues to commit wholesale ethnic cleansing and genocide against the Palestinian people and nation. [...]

Perhaps the chiefs, elders and leaders of the Assembly of First Nations don't know the history of the Zionist movement. In fact, it was coined on the model of the European settler colonialist movement that preceded it four hundred years earlier and committed the genocide against the indigenous peoples. The Zionist movement was also built on the South Africa, Zimbabwe, Angola, Guinea Bissau, Mozambique, Algeria and other European settler colonialist models of the same era - late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. [...]

Indigenous peoples must never be a party to genocide against the Palestinian people nor any other oppressed people facing occupation, genocide and theft of their land and natural resources.

---

So where does this refusal to accept reality come from? Who beat this into your head and why? I think that this "stand on your own two feet" nonsense is something that people dream up when they have wrangled a favourable position from the large interconnected web of human relations that exists all around us. Then they want to pretend the web isn't there, so they don't have to accept the debt they owe to others. "Thanks everyone, I took all your support and your infrastructure, the achievements of our ancestors and the heritage of our society, and now that I'm on top, fuck all y'all. Suckers!"

quote:

---

Jacob Two-Two: ... this "stand on your own two feet" nonsense is something that people dream up when they have wrangled a favourable position from the large interconnected web of human relations that exists all around us. Then they want to pretend the web isn't there, so they don't have to accept the debt they owe to others.... It's a very convenient philosophy for the powerful ... (and those who serve them - N.Beltov)

---

The growing "synergy" (pardon my using that hated word) between the way the centre-to-right talks about class and race (basically we all deserve what get -or don't) is what I find most interesting now. Calvinist in the extreme. Leftwingers too are now portrayed in ways which are eerily similar to how most minorities traditionally have been. (plus or minus the one or two 'positive' stereotypes allowed) Maybe implying others are 'just lazy' gives them the illusion that they're actually hard working themselves.

Too bad Mecredi feels the need to buy into this crap now, always thought he was ok but maybe he's travelling in loftier circles now.

[ 24 May 2007: Message edited by: EriKtheHalfaRed ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bobolink:
Remind can't even keep his promise to leave Babble.

---

[ 24 May 2007: Message edited by: EriKtheHalfaRed ]

But the only model still extant with self-sufficiency as a deliberate policy is North Korea. 'Course it survives on hand-outs, but one can assume the people are proud. At least as proud as those thousands of Romanian kids parked in cement buildings.

[ 27 May 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max Bialystock:
It is sad these thought police have forgotten the old Jewish tradition of supporting the underdog.

---

quote:

---

I think a lot of Native and Black leaders are afraid of in any way offending so-called "Jewish leaders"

---

Do you have any evidence for this assertion or is it the standard rigtht-wing ideological rot we hear from you so constantly?

I don't think his comment was respectful of Native leaders either.

quote:

---

I don't hate "Max". But people who start blaming "the Jewish lobby"...

---

It's a Zionist lobby, not a Jewish lobby. Christians work for it as well as Jews.

[ 26 May 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

quote:

---

I think a lot of Native and Black leaders are afraid of in any way offending so-called "Jewish leaders"

---

It's point that many non-Zionist Jews often make, including Mycroft, unionist, and josh, to name a few people from babble. It's a valid observation.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michelle:

What was objectionable about his statement, in my opinion, is that he's speculating that there is some sort of intimidation of Native and Black communities, without any source to back such a claim up. That, in my opinion, is inflammatory and does not add productively to the discussion.

---

There was nothing objectionable about Max's statement - he's not in court and doesn't have to "back up" his claim. It's perfectly bleeding obvious that anyone who mentions Israel sideways in Canada or the U.S. has to look over their shoulder at the CJC or B'nai Brith or AIPAC or CIC or all the other ruling-class proxies that claim to speak for Jews. The number of examples are endless.

Look at the McCarthyite attack against PEJ for an example in just the last couple days.

It's not just Aboriginals or blacks. Remember the calls for Al-Masry's resignation because he made comments about every military-age Israeli being a legitimate target (or something along those lines)?

Even when there is real horrendous anti-Semitism at play - such as in that creep Ahenakew's pro-Nazi statements in a conversation with a journalist - it is inflated into the scandal of the year with demands for criminal prosecution.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boarsbreath:
Of course Israel is no example of autarky, although kibbutzim came close. Albania and Romania were good models -- Romania actually paying off all its foreign debt in the 70s/80s. A marvel!

But the only model still extant with self-sufficiency as a deliberate policy is North Korea. 'Course it survives on hand-outs, but one can assume the people are proud. At least as proud as those thousands of Romanian kids parked in cement buildings.

---

It is indeed instructive that the countries mentioned had to follow policies of deliberately lowering the standard of living of their citizens in order to be "autarchic" as possible.

The human analogy would seem to be that the truly "self-sufficient" human being is not the take-no-prisoners CEO of a large corporation, but a rather poor and lonely hunter-gatherer living in some remote forest of British Columbia.

quote:

---

As spake by CMOT Dibbler:
Erik, I agree that this "pull yourself up by your own bootstaps" philosophy is to a very large extent hogwash, but isn't it important that countries have a certain amount of economic and social autonimy , so that ther cultures aren't destroyed by Pepsi and Coke and there tresuries aren't filled soley by money from cache crops and tourism?

---

In this vein, I do agree that the ability to insulate a country from the vicissitudes of uncertain international commerce as well as the depredations of multinational corporations is a vital tool that bodies like the WTO, as well as treaties such as NAFTA and the FTAA, seek to remove from the national arsenal of legitimately constituted governments.

Regarding Israel's "independence":

The direct cash aid to the Israeli government represents between ten and twenty percent of their government's annual budget, never mind the in-kind aid provided by creatively-labelled deliveries of weapons and the like.

In short, Israel is hardly the brave little David standing up to the Arab Goliath, as the mythology would have you believe.

[ 26 May 2007: Message edited by: DrConway ]

Support for Israel, in that context, provided a useful foil for US policy by taking the heat off the US and refocussing it on Israel.

Israel is in quite an artificial situation, economically and politically.

Because it can insulate itself from the world economy to a degree that few other non-resource-rich, small nations can, owing to a virtual guarantee that the US will back, in perpetuity, the full faith and credit of the Israeli government, the country of Israel has little incentive to rationalize its economic and political structures.

Just to give you one example - the Israeli government can incur budget deficits essentially in perpetuity as the US Government is highly likely to step in and rescue Israel from financial insolvency should the bonds ever be called.

In addition to this, the Israeli government is able to set advantageous import quotas and tariff structures as it pleases because the USA can bully the WTO into not enforcing treaty obligations. The Israeli government can even set exchange controls if it wishes, and the US's Washington Consensus boys would happily close their eyes and ignore this obvious deviation from economic orthodoxy in the name of political expediency.

quote:

---

The Israeli government can even set exchange controls if it wishes, and the US's Washington Consensus boys would happily close their eyes and ignore this obvious deviation from economic orthodoxy in the name of political expediency.

---

quote:

---

It's perfectly bleeding obvious that anyone who mentions Israel sideways in Canada or the U.S. has to look over their shoulder at the CJC...

---

quote:

---

Yeah, I remember that. It really helped to build bridges between the Assembly of First Nations and the Palestinian people, when Mr. Fontaine went on a junket to support the occupiers.

It's a tribute to the "divide and rule" tactics of the Canadian ruling classes over the centuries that Aboriginals still end up electing characters like Fontaine and Mercredi, who are in the back pocket of (largely) the Liberal party. But I don't care about their party affiliations. How sad for the First Nations, that people like these dare to speak in their name.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
Isn't ignoring economic orthodoxy a good thing? Isn't that what Hugo Chavez is doing?

---

Hey, I'm all for it. I just think it's kind of funny that the USA can be quite ideologically flexible in the name of national security.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ohara:

How patronizing....Have you ever been to an AFN gathering where the Grand Chief is elected? How dare you put your patronizing spin on how you believe the Native community ought to choose its leaders.

---

I don't care how the Aboriginal people choose their leaders, because it's up to them. But when one of their leaders (or anyone else on planet Earth) proclaims Israel as a model for development or otherwise supports Israeli policy, I condemn those leaders. If some Aboriginals (or lesbians or Romanians or Caucasians or Edmontonians or senior citizens or ...) support those leaders' proclamations about Israel, I won't condemn them but will certainly debate with them to try and persuade them of my viewpoint.

In my opinion, Mercredi and Fontaine, based on their view of Israel, cannot lead their people to freedom and defence of their rights. You may not like my opinion, but I am entitled to it. Please don't try to portray it as an attack on how Aboriginals choose their leaders, because that would be false and dishonest on your part.

The Israeli government has forced hundreds of thousands of people into concentration camps and poverty stricken ghetto in the occupied zones, kind of like native reserves here.

The Israeli government has also passed dehumanizing laws imposing separate schools and Id tags, kinds of like the Indian Act and residential schools here.

The Israeli government has initiated several times the forced removal of people off their lands and out of their homes to make way for more profitable developments, kind of like the history between the federal government and major corporations and various First Nations here.

I don't see why he's complaining about these situations here.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ohara:
Bullshit....CJC supports Israel and you support the PA but this comment is crap, you know it. Either provide the proof or continue with innuendo now identified

---

Ummm, I didn't say CJC, I said "CJC or B'nai Brith or AIPAC or CIC or all the other ruling-class proxies that claim to speak for Jews".

As for "proof" - you want me to "prove" that these organizations and others like them massively lobby politicians, influence the media directly, publicly condemn and try to isolate anyone (including Jews!) who opposes Israel's agenda - you want PROOF?

CMOT, I believe the original idea of land claims is so FN can gain More control over their lives, not less. Their population has increased again ten fold over the last century but their land base hasn't. Without an adequate land base cultures die and some of the values that go with them. Judaism is something of an exception, enforced by once systemic discrimination. What's now happening to the European Roma, for example, only shows how taking away the few traditional rights a minority retains doesn't necessarily help, not when the exclusionary racism is still there.

Apparently the political right is now trying to turn the apartheid reality of our reserves into an argument to be used against one of the few honourable ways proposed to address the problem. One FN proposed themselves. This is why I don't want to talk to rightwingers like Boarsbreath much anymore, self described "progressives" or not. Most don't really want honest discourse, they prefer to spin and distort and distract.

And I don't believe Ahenakew's anti-Semitism is representative of opinion among FN people, as was implied, they hardly pose a threat to Jewish people anyhow. But hey, there's a bigot in every crowd, aparently willing to pick up on others traditional hatreds too if nothing else.

I'd like to see what "Max" meant by invoking 'Jewish groups(leaders)' in regards to them, why doesn't someone just ask him what he meant?

[ 27 May 2007: Message edited by: EriKtheHalfaRed ]

quote:

---

As for "proof" - you want me to "prove" that these organizations and others like them massively lobby politicians, influence the media directly, publicly condemn and try to isolate anyone (including Jews!) who opposes Israel's agenda - you want PROOF?

---

Yes, he does, although I would guess that Ohara dosen't need any, and is just asking to get you upset. I would like some however. I believe the CJC wields a lot of power, but I'm not sure how powerful they really are. Exactly how much clout do they have?

[ 27 May 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

quote:

---

Judaism is something of an exception, enforced by once systemic discrimination.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EriKtheHalfaRed:
I'd like to see what "Max" meant by invoking 'Jewish groups' in regards to them, why doesn't someone just ask him what he meamnt?

---

Effing edit function.

[ 27 May 2007: Message edited by: EriKtheHalfaRed ]

quote:

---

CMOT, I believe the original idea of land claims is so FN can gain More control over their lives, not less. Their population has inceased again ten fold over the last century but their land base hasn't. Without an adequate land base cultures and values die. Judaism is something of an exception, enforced by once systemic discrimination. What's now happening to the European Roma, for example, only shows how taking away the few traditional rights a minority retains doesn't necessarily help, not when the exclusionary racism is still there.

---

The Nisgaa treaty for example makes the compromise of FN paying taxes on reserve (already do off reserve, contrary to rumour) but not property taxes by FN living there and nothing that would allow any possible debts incurred to lead to loss of land, as the old assimilationist Dawes act did in the States.

No reason significantly expanded "reserves" couldn't develop resources in more sustainable manner than we generally do and copllect revenues directly, only the racist assumptions of the anti-claims right makes them refuse to see it.

Only potential danger I can see is that multinationals might try to play one off against others, but that's another long and complicated issue I'm neither qualified to speak on or speak for and may never happen anyhow. Agreements would probably have to be drawn up between FNs and our governments to protect minimum standards for everyones mutual benefit, but we're probably further from that now than we were ten years ago.

Most provincial governments are allowing resources on still disputed crown land to be stripped before they have a chance of settling. Despite Delgamuukw now having the force of law in theory, the feds are still sitting back and allowing it. So much for respecting the legal process we expect others to.

ETA: To use more "words" as Unionist said, we're probably closer to the Apartheid ideal right now than we'd be if we allowed FN some real controlling stake in what's after all their own land to begin with. Don't recall many rightwingers complaining about them being shunted onto shrinking reserves until they started asking for more self determination than "we" already allow. Maybe that's where the distortion is being made here.

Under the Nisgaa 'template' (one rightwingers hate) they'd retain control over 'immgration' on-reserve via membership, but everyone would retain their vote for whichever level of government applies, same criminal laws, as well as our mutual right to travel. No pass books or check points.

[ 27 May 2007: Message edited by: EriKtheHalfaRed ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by EriKtheHalfaRed:
Oh, Jewish Leaders. Big woop. Anyone else want to quibble over side issues instead of asking what Max himself meant?

---

I don't want to ask Max what he himself meant, because (as I pointed out above) it's bleeding obvious. He put "Jewish leaders" in quotes, meaning self-styled leaders of the Jews, meaning the leaders of the organizations I've been naming (CJC, ADL, CIC, etc.) - in addition to all the organized religion leaders (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist) who are unanimous in disallowing debate over the fundamental precepts of the Zionist approach to the Middle East and Israel as the "Jewish" state. I.e., those whom the ruling classes and the media portray as speaking on behalf of Jews, but who do not. I.e., those who are ready to tar and feather anyone who says a critical word about Israel or Zionism.

Max has very clearly stated his views along the above lines many times.

But go ahead and ask Max. Maybe I've got it totally wrong. Maybe by "Jewish leaders" he meant parents of Jewish families. Or directors of Jewish summer camps. Or possibly, he was referencing Jewish litres (a measure of Manischewitz wine) but didn't run a spellcheck.

[Edited to add more words and more talk.]

[ 27 May 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by EriKtheHalfaRed:
I just have a naive belief that asking people directly is better than speculating on their intentions, but that's just me, if youre convinced of his good will towards all humanity then I'll leave it at that. I just don't like Mecredis comments being portrayed as a supposed reflection of opinion among Canada's FN in general.

---

Seriously, Erik, as I explained above, I haven't seen a single post by Max that is suspect in the way that some here have suggested. I don't read that into his post about "Jewish leaders" either. All I hear him saying there is that there is so much pro-Zionist and pro-Israel lobbying and bullying in North America that leaders of other minorities feel pressured to shut up on the issue. And I agree with him.

[ 27 May 2007: Message edited by: EriKtheHalfaRed ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:

Ummm, I didn't say CJC, I said "CJC or B'nai Brith or AIPAC or CIC or all the other ruling-class proxies that claim to speak for Jews".

As for "proof" - you want me to "prove" that these organizations and others like them massively lobby politicians, influence the media directly, publicly condemn and try to isolate anyone (including Jews!) who opposes Israel's agenda - you want PROOF?

I've been living that "proof" since, as a teenager, I first dared to wonder why Israel wasn't leaving the land it occupied after the shooting was over...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Petsy:
Interesting, ohara asks for proof and thiu is nothing but a non-answer

---

Yeah, isn't that interesting?

Anyway, I'm Jewish. Didn't you know that Jews always answer a question with a question?

[ 28 May 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:

Ummm, I didn't say CJC, I said "CJC or B'nai Brith or AIPAC or CIC or all the other ruling-class proxies that claim to speak for Jews".

As for "proof" - you want me to "prove" that these organizations and others like them massively lobby politicians, influence the media directly, publicly condemn and try to isolate anyone (including Jews!) who opposes Israel's agenda - you want PROOF?

I've been living that "proof" since, as a teenager, I first dared to wonder why Israel wasn't leaving the land it occupied after the shooting was over...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:

Didn't you know that Jews always answer a question with a question?

[ 28 May 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ken Burch:

And why shouldn't they?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:

You're asking me?

---

[ 28 May 2007: Message edited by: bohajal ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:
I haven't seen a single post by Max that is suspect in the way that some here have suggested. I don't read that into his post about "Jewish leaders" either. All I hear him saying there is that there is so much pro-Zionist and pro-Israel lobbying and bullying in North America that leaders of other minorities feel pressured to shut up on the issue. And I agree with him.

---

Good point - look how African Americans who have spoken out in support of the Palestinians. Jesse Jackson was never forgiven for his remarks but Reagan's idiotic remarks at Bitburg were quickly forgotten. And a few years back Earl Hilliard and Cynthia McKinney ended up be defeated by out-of-state money organized by AIPAC because they weren't on board.

Day belongs to a small but powerful segment of Christianity that believes Christ will soon return to earth and rapture the true believers up to heaven. For this to happen the Jewish people must control their original, god given holy lands. Hence this segment of christianity supports anything and everything Israel does to increase its territory. They are a huge benefit to the Israeli tourist industry and a powerful lobby in their own (western) governments.

Well, OK; that is a bit bizarre.