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skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 14 October 2003 03:13 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm going to do this anonymously -- well, I mean, you can see that I'm me, but I won't name any other names.

I've had an interesting experience today. I've had a couple of PMs from women, feminist women, not long-time or regular posters to babble, who are confused/unhappy with this forum.

They see the mandate (look to the left of the main screen): Discuss feminist issues from a pro-feminist point of view.

Then they read some recent discussions.

As one wrote to me: Raise a feminist issue, and at once! the focus is suddenly back on how unfair women are to men, or some variation on that theme.

In the past, a few people have ended up defending the mandate of this forum very vigorously. I think, eg, especially of judym, who was so good at driving away the "But what about ME?" crowd all by herself.

Shall we do it again, grils?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sara Mayo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3714

posted 14 October 2003 03:18 PM      Profile for Sara Mayo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I concurr!
From: "Highways are monuments to inequality" - Enrique Penalosa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 14 October 2003 03:23 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Are you loosening my reins?

Because I am chomping at the bite to take a bite out of the trolls, who seem disinterested in what the forum is about and feel the need to force their oh so fucking wise, condescending, crap down out throats today. I have just been reining in my temper.

I say take the gloves off grils.

And some of our lovely boys can help too if they'd like.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3000

posted 14 October 2003 03:36 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Count me in! I'm so grumpy from all the crap we've had to deal with over the last couple weeks I'm just rarin' to go!
From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
token right-wing mascot
Babbler # 4226

posted 14 October 2003 04:12 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Count me in too. I will finally be able to ignore this forum again.
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
cynic
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2857

posted 14 October 2003 04:16 PM      Profile for cynic     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Perhaps a new forum could be created where these recent trolls can congregate to discuss how hard it is being a priviliged white male in this oppressive world.
From: Calgary, unfortunately | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Alix
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2279

posted 14 October 2003 04:19 PM      Profile for Alix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm in! I've just been feeling too tired to growl at anyone recently.
From: Kingston | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2092

posted 14 October 2003 04:19 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The "cry me a river" forum?
From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2836

posted 14 October 2003 04:20 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Have at it grils.
From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 14 October 2003 04:20 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Or better yet, a "Gender" forum, where everyone (trolls included) can discuss gendered issues that don't necessarily fit best in Feminism, or about which there may be opinions that are not specifically "feminist".

Problem is, interesting ideas come up here that drift away from the forum's mandate, but there's no better place for some of it to go.


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
token right-wing mascot
Babbler # 4226

posted 14 October 2003 04:22 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The twice-the-pay, get out and golf while the dumb secretary holds down the officeand doesn't read my incriminating email and phone the fraud squad forum.
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Madame X
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4531

posted 14 October 2003 04:22 PM      Profile for Madame X     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'd be willing to wage $100 that you could start a separate MEN's issues forum and they'd still spend all their time here.
From: here or there or eveeeery where | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Internet Devil
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4554

posted 14 October 2003 04:27 PM      Profile for Internet Devil        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Disagreement causes anger and anger provokes curiosity.

I believe that if the controversial issues were presented along finer points, it would of been interesting to everyone.


From: USA | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Madame X
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4531

posted 14 October 2003 04:31 PM      Profile for Madame X     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No. Controversy for the sake of controversy gets boring fast and not all of us are looking for the excitement that can only come by focusing on men's issues.

Now if discussion on feminist issues in a feminist forum could be discussed without the attention focusing on men's needs and how evil and finished the feminist movement is. That would be interesting. Do I see it happening here? Nope.

I see a group of feminists with all the best intentions falling into place exactly where the antifeminists want them.


From: here or there or eveeeery where | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Internet Devil
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4554

posted 14 October 2003 04:55 PM      Profile for Internet Devil        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Madame X:
No. Controversy for the sake of controversy gets boring fast and not all of us are looking for the excitement that can only come by focusing on men's issues.

Now if discussion on feminist issues in a feminist forum could be discussed without the attention focusing on men's needs and how evil and finished the feminist movement is. That would be interesting. Do I see it happening here? Nope.


Actually, many areas of interest do intersect. Like forensic psychology and dynamics of abuse. Mental abuse can not be measured by numbers at all.


From: USA | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Madame X
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4531

posted 14 October 2003 05:01 PM      Profile for Madame X     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Overshadowing, rather than intersecting, is the more appropriate term. The antifeminists here have said not one word on feminist issues, on a feminist forum. All their discussion is about men's issues and how men are oppressed and victimized by women.

Overshadowing, not intersecting.


From: here or there or eveeeery where | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mush
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3934

posted 14 October 2003 05:16 PM      Profile for Mush     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree absolutely, and I am so happy to see this thread- I was about to give up. I am here to learn a thing or two about feminism, not about "what about me"-ism. I can find that anywhere and don't have to go on-line to do it, thank you very much.
From: Mrs. Fabro's Tiny Town | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mush
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3934

posted 14 October 2003 05:25 PM      Profile for Mush     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[sorry- double post]

[ 14 October 2003: Message edited by: Mush ]


From: Mrs. Fabro's Tiny Town | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Internet Devil
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4554

posted 14 October 2003 06:04 PM      Profile for Internet Devil        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Madame X:
I see a group of feminists with all the best intentions falling into place exactly where the antifeminists want them.

I do not know. I do not think anyone -- feminist or antifeminist can influence the world from a message board.

If I wanted to influence our society I should have been a lawyer. But I did not have a chance, and now I am too old to change my career.


From: USA | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Madame X
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4531

posted 14 October 2003 06:24 PM      Profile for Madame X     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How do you define "world" ?
From: here or there or eveeeery where | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Internet Devil
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4554

posted 14 October 2003 06:28 PM      Profile for Internet Devil        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Madame X:
How do you define "world" ?

The society. For instance if I write on a message board that Texas justice system is too severe, nothing will change.

But had I not been psychologically forced into a job I do not like, I would have been a lawyer since '93. Then I would have saved many real peoplew from prison.


From: USA | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mush
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3934

posted 14 October 2003 06:37 PM      Profile for Mush     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The "world" isn't created by lawyers alone!
From: Mrs. Fabro's Tiny Town | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Madame X
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4531

posted 14 October 2003 06:54 PM      Profile for Madame X     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The 'world' is not entirely physical to all people.
It's not even physical to most lawyers.
I should take my advice on that other thread. I also picked the wrong day to be home sick. Gah.

yours truly,

the callous one who has lots of calluses both real and not real.


From: here or there or eveeeery where | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
athena_dreaming
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4574

posted 21 October 2003 02:06 PM      Profile for athena_dreaming   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's the most amazing thing. In my two-year Babble sabbatical, I've participated in tons of other online communities, and they were--astoundingly--troll-free.

These communities included a few yahoo groups with tightly moderated membership lists, and most recently, a handful of wide-open bulletin boards for women who are trying to or in the process of starting families.

Astounding that, isn't it? Web communities for pregnant women and mothers in traditional relationships were *never*, IME, the victim of troll attacks.

Nobody came on-line to berate and educate women struggling with fertility issues on how selfish they were, and how they ought to adopt. No one came to question how anyone could be so terrible as to bring a child into a world like this. No one came online to say "How could you start a family, don't you know what you will do to your career, what are you doing to the cause of equality?" No one questioned their choices in relationships or sexuality.

It seems women doing what women are "supposed" to do are not targets of trolling. Yet every feminist community I've ever been a part of has been targetted by repeated and on-going troll attacks. Hmm....

I also spent some time over the past few years researching the phenomenon of trolling. When I started I expected I would find some tips and tricks to deal with trolls. I believed, and expected to find, that trolls are mostly people who find communities that discuss issues they disagree with and are so filled with righteous rage they just can't stop themselves from trying to correct the silly heathens. What I actually found was a community of people who spend all their free time composing messages to post on-line and generate as much disruption and argument as possible.

Recreational trolls generally present themselves as people of different ideological backgrounds who honestly want to exchange ideas in debate; they post information which is known to be incorrect but not wildly so in order to generate responses; and they get points from other trolls for the number of posts they receive in response. Below is an article on trolling in feminist communities, and why feminist communities are especially vulnerable to trolls, as well as two FAQs written for people who are or want to be trolls.

An article on trolling in feminist communities: http://www.slis.indiana.edu/CSI/WP/WP02-03B.html

The FAQ for Trolls: http://www.urban75.com/Mag/troll.html

Another troll FAQ: http://world.std.com/~Infinity/rightloop/alttrollFAQ.htm

This may be old news to most of you. I offer it to those who believe that trolls are who they say they are. THey're not. Anything you post in response to a troll is a notch on their bedpost; it could be "I hate you you're a poopyhead," doesn't matter, it's a point. It could be "this is a troll, do not respond," doesn't matter, it's a point. It could be "wonderful! I agree totally!" doesn't matter, it's a point. Thoughtful line-by-line refutations composed of facts and sources are worth lots of points to a troll.

The ultimate goal of a recreational troll is to disrupt a community and drag its debate away from its stated goals, preferably by baiting members into posting flames and/or engaging them in a seemingly reasonable debate that somehow never gets resolved or back on course. It is, of course, very difficult to distinguish people who genuinely have different political views and really just do want to talk about it from recreational trolls. I can only suggest that if, after a few posts, the debate seems to be growing more *un*reasonable--if there is no acknowledgement of facts, sources, arguments--if it comes to resemble an Escher drawing and you can't make heads or tails of what is going on--then you are almost certainly dealing with a troll who gains in status in his community every time you post a reply to him or even acknowledge his presence.

AGain, if this is old hat, I apologize. And sorry for how long this is!


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Madame X
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4531

posted 21 October 2003 03:33 PM      Profile for Madame X     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
It seems women doing what women are "supposed" to do are not targets of trolling. Yet every feminist community I've ever been a part of has been targetted by repeated and on-going troll attacks. Hmm....


Exactly.


From: here or there or eveeeery where | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Internet Devil
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4554

posted 22 October 2003 04:33 PM      Profile for Internet Devil        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In your opinion, whose fault is it if a board gets trolled, the troll or the moderator? I mean trolling is not a criminal offense, so the moderator is responsible for maintaining a good board in the open online environment.
From: USA | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2836

posted 22 October 2003 04:39 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Trolling is a choice, and that choice shouldn't be set aside or diminished by looking to a moderator.
From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Internet Devil
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4554

posted 22 October 2003 04:48 PM      Profile for Internet Devil        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Can anyone be blamed for LEGAL choices they make? If I violate the law however slightly, I can be put in a Texas prison for life. But all choices not punishable by laws are our freedoms.

So if a forum is trolled it is 100% due to moderator's lack of skills.


From: USA | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2836

posted 22 October 2003 04:58 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Really, it's not my fault I put that offensive post there. It's her fault for not preventing it?"

Yeah, that plays really well.

*PLONK*


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Internet Devil
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4554

posted 22 October 2003 05:06 PM      Profile for Internet Devil        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Regardless of how moderated a space is it will be READ by many opponents over and over. I have been reading every message of a certain Usenet poster for years, but I never respond, because he/she/it will be very rude to me. But most of those who read want to respond, so it is a moderator's job to keep them out.
From: USA | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 22 October 2003 05:06 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Trolling is a choice, and that choice shouldn't be set aside or diminished by looking to a moderator.

After everything you've written here regarding addiction I'm surprised that you would make the claim that trolling is a "choice".


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2836

posted 22 October 2003 05:35 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If you'd read *everything* I've written on those topics, then it should come as no surprise at all.

Care to try to convince us that trolls are addicts?

[ 22 October 2003: Message edited by: paxamillion ]


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged

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