You have to stand in sheer bogglement at the nerve of the guy.

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Originally posted by DrConway:
You have to stand in sheer bogglement at the nerve of the guy.

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And he was was trying to frame the arguement that women maybe be claiming rape for the money they get.

[ 19 August 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

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Originally posted by scooter:
The guy lacks empathy. I suspect he would be upset at smokers requiring expensive lung cancer treatment.

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Maybe only if said smokers are women.

I don't why I read the article, and getting myself all riled up in the process, but, here comes a rant.

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So I suppose we must resign ourselves to the fact that a growing slice of our taxes will be handed over to victims of unsolved rapes, while rape itself increases – the inevitable result of the collapse of sexual morality.

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He's such an asshole.

And this?

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The collapse of the Tory party into the arms of Leftism

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suspect it is the result of the almost total failure of the criminal justice system to prevent crime, catch culprits or punish them when caught. Instead of offering justice, the state provides a cheque.

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Okay, I'll give him something here - but that's a much more general issue.

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rape itself increases – the inevitable result of the collapse of sexual morality.

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Nope - not buying it. Historically, there was as much or more rape at times of strong "conventional" sexual morality than there is today.

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This is flatly untrue and she must know it is. Of course she is culpable, just as she would be culpable if she crashed a car and injured someone while drunk, or stepped out into the traffic while drunk and was run over.

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Originally posted by Doug:
...Rape is someone else's decision.

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[ 22 August 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

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Nothing offers more proof--sad, irrefutable proof--that we are more like men than either they or we care to believe.

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[ 23 August 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

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Originally posted by minkepants:
how's it a slam? by slamming myself? my gender? I liked the Dworkin article. That's it. If I wanted to say something nasty I dont have to hide my light under a bushel, I'd say it straight up. If you dont want men posting in this forum than you should suggest that it become segregated.

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How did you slam yourself?

Then how about you say what you meant by your "here here", straight up? I would love to hear you explain what exactly you meant.

As for your your last segregated comment, get a grip, there are more men posting in this thread than women, and it is telling that you choose to:

1. Frame your words in a "Christian" sub text

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Originally posted by minkepants on Sooey's:
What fucking fun is it to argue with some dishrag on babble?

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The Sexual Liberals and the Attack on Feminism (1990) edited by Dorchen Leidholdt and Janice G. Raymond; The Athene series, Pergamon Press. Among contributors are Catharine MacKinnon, Twiss Butler, Phyllis Chesler, Evelina Giobbe, Mary Daly, Andrea Dworkin, Susan Cole, and Sheila Jeffreys. Available at Barnes and Noble or Adall. From

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[ 23 August 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

so i'm not too concerned about who or what you label a "sexual liberal"; i'll probably wear the title with pride.

And what an effin' con-job! You've managed to take the rantings of a paleoconservative ex-trotskyist dork (like his neoconservative ex-trotskyist dork Christopher)and turn it into an attack on "sexual liberals"!

This is about someone who would suggest women get what they deserve when they get raped. That's pretty vile, in my estimation. Are you attempting to suggest that unless one agrees with you about porn that one must therefore be supportive of Hitchens' perspective?

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Originally posted by scooter:
The guy lacks empathy. I suspect he would be upset at smokers requiring expensive lung cancer treatment.

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Originally posted by jester:
I lack empathy. I see too many idiot smokers who have no empathy for the damage they do to themselves, never mind their families, in their selfish preoccupation with substance abuse.

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Originally posted by remind:

I see too many idiot consumers who have no empathy for the damage they do to everyone, never mind their families, in their selfish preoccupation with hedonistic pleasures, and self gatifying hobbies, because they can "afford" them. Say nothing of their addictions to said hedonisitc pleasures and hobbies.

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Originally posted by remind:
No actually, was just pointing out the hypocrisy inherent in your words. Everybody thinks their addiction is better than others, and thus bash others to try and make themselves believe theirs isn't as destructive.

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Can't keep keeping on like this.

You've noted your concern about the men in the thread, however, I'm glad I could learn something here today.

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Originally posted by RevolutionPlease:
...I wish I knew how to talk about this because some men I know wouldn't get it.

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Above you addressed the notion you thought it was "men" not "most men".

That has not been my findings, over the years. There has definitely been men, I have know(n)/understand who understand raping a woman is their choice, not the woman's/girls, under any circumstance.

I have a distinct recollection of suspending you about a year ago when a lot of people said I should have banned you outright, and I recall kicking myself ever since. I'm not making the same mistake twice.

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Originally posted by remind:

Above you addressed the notion you thought it was "men" not "most men".

That has not been my findings, over the years. There has definitely been men, I have know(n)/understand who understand raping a woman is their choice, not the woman's/girls, under any circumstance.

What exactly do you think these men you know wouldn't get?

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I said "some" and not "most" but pedantry aside, I think it's just very upsetting for me that some men I know couldn't see what's wrong with the drunk woman excuse.

I know I should do better iin choosing my social circle, but life's not easy.

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Originally posted by RevolutionPlease:
...I think it's just very upsetting for me that some men I know couldn't see what's wrong with the drunk woman excuse.

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ok guy(s), if you got rolled, while out drunk and someone stole all your money, it then would be your fault that someone stole your money/possessions, by the same token?

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I know I should do better iin choosing my social circle, but life's not easy.

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Can't make changes unless we are willing to put ourselves out there, with differing types, to do so.

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That's why I just mentioned I hope I can learn better tips to get through their thick skulls.

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A usefull tool is an analogy that the other people will get, as it is applied to themselves. Take the oranges out of the apples compare, such as I did with with the drunk driver scenario above.

And do please come here and ask for tips if coming across things you do not know how to respond to.

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Well perhaps you could say to them something along the lines of:

ok guy(s), if you got rolled, while out drunk and someone stole all your money, it then would be your fault that someone stole your money/possessions, by the same token?

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[ 24 August 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

My point is not that opportunity isn't relevant, but that there is much more animus involved than in robbery.

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martin: My point is not that opportunity isn't relevant, but that there is much more animus involved than in robbery.

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I guess I'm trying to express the ontological point that women live with, and there are few examples that can be related to men on an individual/ego basis. Well, one example is for Black and FN men being beat up by any random white guy, or the police, just for being men of colour, but my feeling is that too is an inadequate analogy.

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Originally posted by remind:
That has not been my findings, over the years. There has definitely been men, I have know(n)/understand who understand raping a woman is their choice, not the woman's/girls, under any circumstance.

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This point strikes me as so blindingly obvious that I fail to see how any male would think otherwise.

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Originally posted by DrConway:
This point strikes me as so blindingly obvious that I fail to see how any male would think otherwise.

I wonder what kind of reasoning is trotted out for attempts at explanations of deviations from said obviousness.

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IMV, some men believe that their desires/wants supercede most everything, including others, mainly women and childrens, personal autonomy, and/or rights/rules. Others get off on violence and the power over another. And others receive a sense personal empowerment, by having power over others.

[ 26 August 2008: Message edited by: WendyL ]

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Originally posted by WendyL:
Power over is taken for granted in our society by men. As well, our language and beliefs, culturally, lend false credence to this, that someone can be "made" to do something as oppose to choose to do something. "You made me fall in love with you" "the boss made me soooo angry" etc... It becomes an easy extension for aggressing males to use the language to blame women for choices they make for themselves. Just think about the kinds of blaming women get -- for how we dress, talk, move, smell, breathe, sneeze, scratch our arses. Conveniently our language/beliefs regarding personal power and responsibility fits the purposes of an oppressive social structure.

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Good points.

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Do you think it is just convenience, or do you think it is a contrived state of being?

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Originally posted by WendyL:
...the oppression of peoples is always a purposeful (i.e., planned)and nuanced system. Women and children are abused as part of a systemic bias which has been carefully put into place and is bolstered by finely wrought conventions, laws (or lack thereof), desires. Within our society, we teach our daughters to be victims (talking here in the larger sense of what our social structures and values perpetrate, not what each of us individually teaches them as inoculation and just fucking good sense). So, the fight is long and tiring, even tedious at times. That is why folks the likes of babblers, with a couple of exceptions,are babbling. A damned fine thing that they are, that they have been, and that they will continue.

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I know you do, I just thought a response such as this, that lays it out, would be good for those for those who still do not get it.

Yes, the fight has been longgggggg and tiring, and it will definitely be even longer, and down right exhausting, for those who have continued to fight, and who will continue.

And it would be hoped that the younger women and girls, who have reaped the benefits of feminist gains for women, and who think the work is done, will eventually realize the full rammifications of the fight not yet being over, and that their help is needed for the continued plight of women...