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Author Topic: Vancouver Sun columnist slams Women's Economic Justice Report
barb_anello
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posted 23 July 2006 04:44 AM      Profile for barb_anello   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Important clarification about the Women's Economic Justice Report

.

To all interested in Women's Economic Justice and Guaranteed Livable Income,

In the July 22, 2006 Vancouver Sun, columnist Daphne Bramham slams the Women's Economic Justice Report on Guaranteed Livable Income. (page C4) See article here: http://tinyurl.com/fs3kj

She states:

quote:
"Far from helping women like them, this report makes the whole idea [guaranteed income] seem ridiculous."

and

quote:
"The 72-page report by Cindy L'Hirondelle reeks of a sloppy, sentimentalist view of nature, a vision of an idyllic, Rousseau-ian rural life minus the peasants."

and

quote:
"Please, somebody tell me that the Victoria Status of Women Action Group's recently released list of benefits of a guaranteed annual income wasn't written for David Letterman."

But that is not all. She also makes a very damaging mistake about one of
the points listed under the section on "concerns". She thinks we were
saying that we did not want people new to Canada to have a GLI. She got
it backwards! We had the opposite concern. We wanted to ensure that
people new to Canada could easily access getting a Guaranteed Livable
Income. Throughout the report it is also noted that a GLI must happen in
every country in the world.

The web site for the report has been revised to ensure that this is
clear. http://pacificcoast.net/~swag/WEJreportconcerns.htm

Full report available here: http://pacificcoast.net/~swag/WEJreport

It is also causing a lot of alarm that in her article she attributes
her mistaken ideas about the report to Cindy L'Hirondelle personally. This is what she writes about Cindy:

quote:
"she has no intention of sharing the benefits" and "I guess she figures that the equality section of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms shouldn't apply to 'foreigners'."

I have asked her for a correction in her next column but it would be
great if others could send an email too about this over-the-top hatchet job.

Here is her email:
[email protected]

Here is the email if you want to send a letter to the Vancouver Sun
(maximum 200 words)
[email protected]

Or use this online form:
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/letters.html

.


From: North Bay | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Merryblue
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Babbler # 565

posted 23 July 2006 12:58 PM      Profile for Merryblue     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I came here to comment on some wreconomist's drivel, but I see that discussion was closed long before all the variables lacking in that economomist's myopic viewpoints had been exhausted. So I went to comment on another topic. It, too, was closed. Then I saw the post here, by barb_anello on some other diatribe written by some corporate-sucking CanWaste "writer" castigating the Women's Economic Justice Report. I had read the reports and comments on the site. A GLI, indeed, would solve some of the immediate circumstances of poverty, like food and shelter, but free post secondary education, aptitude and counselling, and a proliferation of free detox centres, along with effective mental health treatment would just about solve all our social problems.

CanWaste princess Daphne Bramham, possibly purposely or out of stupidity, misintepreted the women's justice report. You can be sure hers will always be one of the loudest voices clammering against free post secondary education! She would be horrified if someone with more talent than she has (not hard) might have a shot at her job, if that person had a Journalist Degree. Bramham and her Yankophilic employers continue to promote policies that deny most women a chance at a decent life.


From: Northern Vancouver Island B.C. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
barb_anello
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posted 24 July 2006 04:37 PM      Profile for barb_anello   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Guaranteed Livable Income a universal idea

Cindy L'Hirondelle, Women's Economic Justice Project Coordinator responds to Vancouver Sun column

In Daphne Bramham's July 22 column "Oh, wouldn't it be lover-ly?" she launches a none to subtle attack on the Women's Economic Justice Report on Guaranteed Livable Income and me personally.

She hopes the ideas in the report are a joke, calls the report "sloppy", "sentimentalist", "Rousseau-ian", "sprinkled with neo-Luddite thinking", "buttressed with Marxist-socialist cant"; that I am "channeling the founders of the Social Credit party", making the guaranteed annual income idea seem "ridiculous", doing a "huge disservice" to the women interviewed, that I "trivialized the desperate needs of the poor", made a "nonsensical lament about how [low income women] can't buy organic", put feminism in disrepute and made the rest of Canada see us as "wigged-out West Coasters." I'm surprised she didn't call me a blood-drinking vampire as well, but then she wonders if I'm vegan. If she had contacted me, I would have told her: that's right, I only drink the blood of organic carrots.

Read the rest of Cindy's response at http://dawn.thot.net/gli5.html


From: North Bay | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 24 July 2006 05:44 PM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Right on!!!

Once again women are leading the way into the future, this time by advocating a GLI now. The question then is, do enough women understand the importance of this proposal and if so, do they have the poltical power/voice to make it a reality?


From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
LukeVanc
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posted 25 July 2006 04:41 AM      Profile for LukeVanc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It certainly wasn't an accident.

Daphne Bramham is the same columnist that almost single- handedly caused the then COPE-dominated Vancouver city council to reverse its decision on allowing the existence of safe houses for sex trade workers in the city of Vancouver.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Pearson
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posted 07 August 2006 10:52 PM      Profile for Pearson        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, mistake or not, she's right, this report is ridiculous.

There are many good reasons to offer a guaranteed livable income, but these are not two of them:

"People would be less susceptible to exploitation or manipulation from negative aspects of organized religion."

"There would be more time and money for travel and learning about diverse cultures."

Although, since we will all be living self-contained no-footprint lives - individually producing everything we consume, I'm not sure how we are going to have more time.

Rather than list the realities that the poor face in a so-called civilized nation, she's listed her own naieve dream of how to create her own personal utopia.

This would be fine for an article in a college newspaper but not OK for a 72 page report handed in by the government, with the expectation that it will facilitate change. Whoever, wrote the report should be fired.


From: 905 Oasis | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
GLI2020
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posted 19 August 2006 10:04 PM      Profile for GLI2020   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
First of all you have not read the report or you would know that the report contains point form summaries of lengthy interviews with over 40 women as well as excerpts from the interviews.

Second, you have also not read the economic rationale for a Guaranteed Livable Income which is contained in the report so I will post it here. Next time read the source material instead of skimming a inaccurate review.

The Strong Case for a Guaranteed Livable Income
by Cindy L'Hirondelle

"Reasons given by men for their failure to account for women's work are (1) conceptual problems and (2) the practical difficulties of collecting data. It does not seem to occur to them that if you have a conceptual problem about the activity of half the human species, you then have a conceptual problem about the whole." -- Marilyn Waring, "Counting for Nothing", 1988

"For being in a position to know and nevertheless shunning knowledge creates direct responsibilities for the consequences from the very beginning." -- Albert Speer, "Inside the Third Reich", 1970

"There are no right answers to wrong questions." -- Ursula K. Le Guin, "Planet of Exile," 1966

Over the last five years, I have organized, spoken and presented at hundreds of community meetings to express the urgency of providing a guaranteed livable income (GLI) to all world citizens. However, even after presenting irrefutable statistical evidence that poverty is killing many people every day -- including mothers and children -- the question people repeatedly ask is where will the money come from to pay for a GLI?

Upon reflection this question is not really shocking because centuries of relentless social, political and economic propaganda has blamed 'the poor' for causing their own poverty. This has created almost unanimous consent that ending systemic poverty would be too 'costly' and 'we' might not be able afford it. This idea is deeply-rooted in the historic fallacy that 'the poor' are somehow inferior and that 'others' have learned to escape the ravages of poverty through hard work: producing their own food, housing, fuel and so forth.

Not only is this easily proven false, it has become even more obviously false since 1776 when Scottish moral philosopher Adam Smith published his famous economic treatise "An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations". In regards to 'who is dependant on whom,' Smith wrote: "When the division of labour has been once thoroughly established, it is but a very small part of a man's wants which the produce of his own labour can supply. [emphasis added]

"Division of labour" means people must specialize to produce enough products to sell to make a living. For example, Smith was a professor, tutor, government employee and writer. If he had to produce his own food, fuel, clothing and everything else he needed to survive, his time to devote to thinking, teaching and writing would have been greatly reduced.

What is even more crucial to the economic survival of social theorists like Smith, is that if everyone (including children) were forced to be self-sufficient, no one would have the time to consume or money to purchase Smith's lectures or books. As he stated, "Consumption is the sole end and purpose of all production; and the interest of the producer ought to be attended to, only so far as it may be necessary for promoting that of the consumer. The maxim is so perfectly self-evident, that it would be absurd to attempt to prove it."

When we take into account how producers are economically dependent on 'consumers' it becomes very apparent that the 'division of labour' itself is a sufficient argument for legislating a universal guaranteed income. More production becomes a loss if there is not an equivalent increase in consumption. But because society has an almost religious obsession with production, the essential role of consumer to producer is obscured.
At the same time there is an imperative for industry to cut costs through technological innovation whenever possible.

"the economic goal of any nation as of any individual, is to get the greatest results with the least effort...It is for this reason that men use their ingenuity to develop 100,000 labour saving inventions. ...The progress of civilization has meant the reduction of its employment not its increase." -- Henry Hazlitt "Economics in One Lesson", 1944

The end result?
"A global surplus of everything from food to videos co-exists with hundreds of millions of people living in destitution... astonishingly large and increasing number of people are not needed or wanted to make goods or to provide the services that the paying customers of the world can afford."-- Jamie Swift, "Civil Society in Question", 1999

"Global oversupply of commodities is a direct consequence of the decline in purchasing power and rising levels of poverty." -- Michel Chossudovsky, "The Globalization of Poverty", 2003

"Under the market system, there is demand for a product if a lot of people want it - but that demand counts for nothing if those people have no money." -- Linda McQuaig, "All You Can Eat: Greed, Lust and the New Capitalism", 2001

Without money people can't consume, and without enough consumers, businesses go bankrupt. So without a GLI, Smith's 'division of labour' sinks the economy regardless of the increased productivity due to industrial innovations. If the number of products being produced rises (e. g. digital products for sale) then either people will need more money to buy them with or the prices of these products would fall until people had enough money to buy them.

"We have come to the point where we must make the nonproducer a consumer or we will find ourselves drowning in a sea of consumer goods. We have so energetically mastered production that we now must give attention to distribution... I am now convinced that the simplest approach will prove to be the most effective -- the solution to poverty is to abolish it directly by a now widely discussed measure: the guaranteed income. " -- Martin Luther King Jr., "Where Do We Go From Here: Chaos or Community?", 1967
To further complicate the economic problems caused by 'free market' economic theory, there is no scientific or ethical principle that compels anyone to 'consume' goods or services other the life-giving necessities. In fact, the opposite is true for there is rapidly growing scientific evidence that the 'goods' and 'services' being produced are destroying peoples' health and that of other species while severely damaging the air, water and soil that make life possible.

Next, but most importantly, 'the division of labour' into paid and unpaid work has meant that vast numbers of mothers and children have lived and died in abject and humiliating poverty even while free market social theorist have been well-paid to maintain the fiction that mothers and children are a 'cost' to the productive members of society. If this were true and women stopped having babies altogether then everyone should become increasingly wealthy. But in reality, if all women stopped having babies (so they could do paid productive labour), the world's economy would collapse and then the human species would go extinct. This gross reversal of 'dependency' can be revealed by simply asking "where do consumers come from?" For in addition to needing money to consume, consumers need first to be born. However, instead of recognizing the essential economic role of women's unpaid work, women are vilified for making "bad choices".

"It is hard to understand why so many women are having babies that they cannot support. Many suspect the welfare system has been an enabling factor in these women's bad choices..." -- Isabel V. Sawhill, The Behavioral Aspects of Poverty, The Public Interest, Fall 2003.

"They need to sterilize those that have children and are on welfare." -- Crystal, April 17, 2005, (U.S.) internet forum, Hannity.com.

"Others have to work, so single mothers on welfare shouldn't expect a long sojourn at home." -- Shelley Fralic, Vancouver Sun, Dec. 17, 2001.

"One of the reasons that women aren't climbing the ladder as fast as men is simple: C-H-I-L-D-R-E-N."-- Rush Limbaugh, "The Way Things Ought to Be", 1992.

"Productive work is the central purpose of a rational man's life..." Ayn Rand," The Virtue of Selfishness", 1961.

"The rewards of a market system are linked to productivity..." -- Karl E. Case, Wellesley College, Ray C. Fair, Yale University, "Principles of Economics", Prentice-Hall, 1996.

"Conventional economic statistics, such as the national accounts and employment measures, are largely designed to measure the market economy and exclude (in developed economies at least) most of the non-market productive activities occurring within the household." -- Malika Hamdad, "Valuing Households Unpaid Work in Canada, 1992 and 1998:Trends and Sources of Change", Statistics Canada, 2003.
"Why have children at all (or more than just one or two), especially when there are so many reasons not to?" Eric Cohen, "Where have all the children gone?" The Public Interest, Spring 2005.

"Motherhood is the single biggest risk factor for poverty in old age." Ann Crittenden, "The Price of Motherhood", 2001.

"Relative to other kinds of applicants, mothers were rated as less competent, less committed, less suitable for hire, promotion, and management training, and deserving of lower salaries. Mothers were also held to higher performance and punctuality standards. Men were not penalized for being a parent, and in fact, appeared to benefit from having children on some measures." Cornell University, Department of Sociology (Shelley J. Correll, Stephan Bernard) "Getting a Job: Is There a Motherhood Penalty?"

The consequences are two-fold: fewer women will make the "bad" economic choice to have a child which translates into economic problems for the 'producers': "Never in history has there been economic growth without population growth", (European Population Conference, 2005). Over the last few years more and more news articles raise the alarm: "Not enough babies: Report fingers new threat to economy" ( Wall Street Journal, August 23, 2005) and "If we are not producing more citizens who will ultimately consume, that is a problem," (Alan Mirabelli, Vanier Institute of the Family, quoted in Globe & Mail, Aug. 12, 2003) and worries over the dropping birth rate took up four and a half full pages and one editorial in the National Post's series on "Canada's Baby Gap" (Feb. 18-22, 2006).

The evidence for a strong argument for a Guaranteed Livable Income is mounting:

1) A GLI is necessary to stop the killing of poor people (genocide) and more babies and children will continue to die from easily preventable poverty-related causes despite the obvious fact they can't take paid jobs and yet need income with which to consume.

2) As long as money is used as means of exchange, everyone needs enough to consume to prevent businesses from going bankrupt.

3) Without a GLI, more women will have no choice but to not have children (and all non-market activities including all types of unpaid care work and volunteering will dwindle).

4) Without a GLI, increasing ecocide is inevitable because every citizen will have no choice but to produce products regardless of the impact on life as whole and on the planet.

Despite the life and death urgency and irrefutable evidence, many people will still ask "where is the money going to come from?" This is due to the belief that money magically comes from 'working.' However, all money originates from government legislation allowing bankers to produce money, while forbidding all others from producing it -- or face going to prison for the crime of counterfeiting.
"We often speak of someone 'making money,' when we really mean that he or she is receiving an income. We do not mean that he or she has a printing press in the basement churning out greenbacked pieces of paper." -- Milton Friedman, "Money Mischief," 1992

Some free market economic theorists (politicians, university professors, etc) will insist a GLI is unscientific and 'inflationary' even while they cash the taxpayer-provided guaranteed livable income cheques they get paid to produce 'thoughts' refuting the need for GLI. Thus they exempt themselves from the very scientific laws they insist that others must obey or live and die in poverty. They embody the expression: "The essence of immorality is the tendency to make an exception of myself."(Jane Addams, 1860-1935). By way of comparison, people living on farms with wells, wood lots and so forth can at least be self-sufficient in the necessities.

Given their own obvious economic dependency and their need to be supplied with a guaranteed income either directly (politicians) or indirectly (university professors) from the government, it becomes understandable that most so-called free market social theorists are categorically opposed to the concept of universal guaranteed income. After all, if social theorists publicly acknowledged that they are not economically independent then their social theory collapses. The reasons for this are not difficult to fathom.

"By this time, we should be familiar with the sincerity with which people will protect the economic territory which provides them their livelihood and wealth. Besides the necessity of a job or other source of income for survival, people need to feel they are good and useful to society. Few ever admit even to themselves that their hard work may not be fully productive. This emotional shield requires most people to say with equal sincerity that those on welfare are lazy ignorant and non-functional."-- J.W. Smith, "The World's Wasted Wealth 2", Institute for Economic Democracy, 1994.

It is ironic that in all the worry about the costs of a GLI, that the most costly thing we can be doing -- to the environment, to health, to democracy, to peace and to justice for those needlessly living and dying of lack in the era of grotesque waste and luxury -- is to try to produce our way to full employment.

"We find all the no-life-support-wealth-producing people going to their 1980 jobs in their cars or buses, spending trillions of dollar's worth of petroleum daily to get to their no-wealth-producing jobs. It doesn't take a computer to tell you that it will save both Universe and humanity trillions of dollars a day to pay them handsomely to stay at home." -- Buckminster Fuller, Critical Path, 1981

There is no difference between voting for a law providing a government service than voting to legislate a guaranteed livable income. After all, we give our consent to allow the government to authorize banks to print money; therefore, using the very same logic, we could vote for GLI. Without it, genocide, ecocide, and war will continue to be the norm.


From: Victoria, BC, Coast Salish Terrritory | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
GLI2020
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posted 19 August 2006 10:11 PM      Profile for GLI2020   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In addition, for people opposed to a Guaranteed Livable Income as a solution to poverty, as I assume Mr. Pearson is, then show an alternative solution specifically if you propose that people should just "get a job" show how Jobism (http://www.livableincome.org/jobism.htm) would address the following problems (don't forget to show your evidence).

1) THE NAIRU (The Non-Accelerating Inflationary Rate of Unemployment): When the economy heats up, as it is now, interest rates are raised. Why? "The more rigid wages and salaries are, the more unemployment is necessary to convince individuals that it is appropriate to accept smaller increases in income." Linda McQuaig, quoting an economist from the Bank of Canada in Shooting the Hippo, 1993, (pg. 151)

"The Federal Reserve is almost certain to raise interest rates for the 17th successive time to 5.25 per cent at the end of its two-day policy meeting on Thursday." (Financial Times, June 28 2006)
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/08382f98-06ce-11db-81d7-0000779e2340.html)

"It was easy money that helped fuel a boom in housing and consumer spending on big-ticket items, and each quarter-percentage point increase seemed barely perceptible to most consumers and business executives. But two years later, the overnight rate is at 5 percent, and the cumulative impact is increasingly apparent across the most rate-sensitive segments of the economy, including housing, automobile sales and financial markets." (MSNBC, June 28, 2006) http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13599156/

Interest rates are raised to "cool down" the economy when it gets too "hot." When there is not enough "slack" in the labour market, interest rates are raised to create unemployment to stop inflation. See "Unemployment heartwarming to economists" http://www.livableincome.org/unemployment.htm

2) EXPLOITATION OF WOMEN'S UNPAID WORK: Women are supposed to work for free to produce the next generation of humans *in addition to* their work in the formal labour market. That this work is essential to the economy is evident in worried headlines like: "Canada Needs More Kids" (The Province, Aug.9, 04) and "Not enough babies: new threat to economy" (Globe & Mail, Aug. 23, 05), the book "The Empty Cradle" by Phillip Longman, the recent article "Why have children?" by Eric Cohen in Commentary Magazine, June 2006 and Where have all the Children Gone?" article in Public Interest Magazine, Spring 2005 http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0377/is_159/ai_n13684707

There has been no declaration to end the human species. This means that society totally relies on women to produce the next generation. So demanding jobs as the solution to poverty means a continuation of total exploitation of women's work to produce the human species. It means that women pay the externalized costs for all jobs. Many "working people" worry that a guaranteed income would mean a bunch of "lazy" people free-riding on their hard work. However, the opposite is true. Everyone is "free-riding" on the unpaid work of women. http://www.livableincome.org/ahousework.htm (A generous targeted benefit to mothers is also not a solution to this exploitation as women would then face pressure to have babies for economic reasons.)

3) NO PRODUCTIVE CHOICE: "Productive choice would allow people to be able to say "no" to dangerous, degrading or harmful work; "no" to exploitive relationships resulting from poverty, "no" to jobs that harm the environment. It would allow people to say "yes" to work such as caregiving of our own babies and children, our elders, family members with disability, chronic illness, or unexpected health crisis. It would also allow people to do work that is beneficial to the community and to nature. No guaranteed livable income means no productive choice." http://www.livableincome.org/aproductivechoice.htm

4) JOBS IMPOSSIBLE AS A UNIVERSAL SOLUTION: We cannot improve our lot based on the exploitation of other people in other parts of the world. "If one set of women tries to better its material condition as wage-workers, or as consumers, not as human beings, capital will try to offset its possible losses by squeezing another set of women."(Maria Mies, Patriarchy and Accumulation on a World Scale) As I've already stated but must state again: trying to create livable incomes for all the people on the planet who need one through ramping up economic growth and jobs would put even more strain on the environment. We would need several more planets of for resources and several more planets for waste even if we didn’t have the glut of good problem or limits to consumption, as William Rees has pointed out:
http://www.iisd.ca/linkages/consume/mwfoot.html

5) JOBS FOR ALL = ECOCIDE: "It will be impossible to even begin to save other species and the world's environment as long as billions of people are desperate to escape poverty. People are forced to take any available job regardless of the impact that more production and more consumption has on other peoples, other forms of life and the earth as a whole. Without a GLI people won't have a means to stop destroying nature. Instead of building more homes for people, the business sector insists that world society needs more luxury housing, hotels, office buildings, shopping malls, sporting arenas, golf courses and so on. The business sector also wants to use our time and resources to drill for more oil and to dig out more gold and diamonds. The world's business community wants to privatize the world's lands and resources to grow more coffee, tea, cotton, sugar, tobacco, cut flowers and other cash crops. Not only does the repeated consumption of certain products make people sick, it also makes all forms of life progressively sicker by polluting the air, water and soil that gives us all life." http://www.livableincome.org/environment.htm and http://www.livableincome.org/consumption.htm

6) BAD HEALTH & SOCIAL BREAKDOWN & WAR: Millions of jobs rely on the continued consumption of products that are harmful to health (especially impacting children's health). "The attempt to produce fuller employment by inducing people to consume more products such as fast foods, tobacco, alcohol, soft drinks, donuts, caffeinated drinks, sugared foods, processed foods etc. has caused widespread ill health. " http://www.livableincome.org/health.htm , http://www.livableincome.org/consumption.htm
Millions of jobs depend on the continuation of war (see Peace and GLI)
http://www.livableincome.org/peace.htm

7) WASTE: "Advocating jobs as a solution to poverty, from either the political left or right still has the same result. It demands that vast quantities of time, energy, resources and people's lives are used by harmful or wasteful economic activities. Even if the government created make-work jobs to relieve poverty there would be massive waste of natural resources --people would use resources going back and forth to work each day, they would need infrastructure and workplaces. Not to mention the tragic waste of human life. The job system is a massive diversion machine - wasting precious resources (natural and human) to create mountains of crap. Just so that people can have jobs."
http://www.livableincome.org/jobism.htm

8) ECONOMIC GLUTS & OVERCAPACITY: “global oversupply of commodities is a direct consequence of the decline in purchasing power and rising levels of poverty” (The Globalization of Poverty by Michel Chossudovsky, 2003) “The progress of civilization has meant the reduction of its employment not its increase.” (Economics in One lesson, Henry Hazlitt, 1946) "The proposal does not deal with the nature of crop agriculture and the reasons why farm programs were established in the first place. As a result, it does not identify how a buyout will serve to address the chronic problem of supply growing faster than demand and the resulting low prices." (April 22, 2005, Daryll E. Ray, Agricultural Policy Analysis Center, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN) http://apacweb.ag.utk.edu/weekcol/246.html
See also GLUTS of GOODS http://www.livableincome.org/glutofgoods.htm

9) FREE WILL: Another problem with using consumption (economic growth) to solve poverty: free will means people do not have to consume to give other people jobs. "Even if we want to consume, there are physical and time limits to consumption. People can only eat so much, drink so much, and their houses (and cars) will only hold so many goods." http://www.livableincome.org/consumption.htm

10) DESTRUCTION OF SUBSISTENCE ECONOMIES
The jobs system depends on the destruction of people's capacity to do subsistence work for themselves and their communities. Economic growth, development and the jobs system also depends on the continued and accelerated theft and destruction and degradation of indigenous people's lands and resources around the world.

"The war against subsistence is the real war of capital...Only after people's capacity to subsist is destroyed, are they totally and unconditionally in the power of capital." (Maria Mies and Veronika Bennholdt-Thomsen, the Subsistence Perspective)

"if entire countries hadn't been exploited as colonies for long periods of time, then there wouldn't be any capitalism." http://www.republicart.net/disc/aeas/mies01_en.htm

"Throughout history the rich and powerful have colluded to use physical force and coercion to gain wealth by stealing it from others and then lying about how they did it."
(The Last Taboo, How Jobs cause poverty, by J.S. Larochelle, End Poverty Primer, 2003)
See also: "Eve, Adam and the market" http://www.livableincome.org/aneitherjobs.htm)

Again: If there is something wrong with a GLI proposal then show how the jobs "solution" would address the above problems which include: massive poverty, exploitation of half the world's population, massive waste and degradation of nature, and the continued denial of mass murder, theft of indigenous lands and slavery as being the roots of economic growth and "development."

Cindy L'Hirondelle
http://www.livableincome.org
http://pacificcoast.net/~swag/swcproject05.htm


From: Victoria, BC, Coast Salish Terrritory | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 20 August 2006 01:52 PM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nor will the likes of poster Pearson ever be able to rationaize the very real existence of Canadian government policies that maintain an ARTIFICIAL level of unemployent as a hedge against inflation. An abomination of politicial prejudice that makes a GLI even more relevant and necessary.
From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Pearson
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posted 20 August 2006 10:26 PM      Profile for Pearson        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

First of all you have not read the report or you would know that the report contains point form summaries of lengthy interviews with over 40 women as well as excerpts from the interviews.

Quite correct. I have not read this report. I had not realized that reading a poorly construed 72 page report was a prerequisite for making a post on the Internet.

Despite this, I fail to see how lengthy interviews with 40 women somehow invalidates the points that I have made about some of the content being absolutely ridiculous.

quote:

Second, you have also not read the economic rationale for a Guaranteed Livable Income which is contained in the report so I will post it here.

I am not questioning the GLI, I am questioning the author of this report, who felt a need to list the opportunity to travel and explore different cultures as a reason for the GLI.

"Next time read the source material instead of skimming a inaccurate review. "

If the review is innacurate in the two quotes that I listed - the one about travelling, and the other about exploitation of religion - please inform me. I took the liberty of assuming that the Vancouver Sun columnist would accurately cut and paste a verbatim quote.

quote:

In addition, for people opposed to a Guaranteed Livable Income as a solution to poverty, as I assume Mr. Pearson is, then show an alternative solution specifically if you propose that people should just "get a job" show how Jobism (http://www.livableincome.org/jobism.htm) would address the following problems (don't forget to show your evidence).

I am not opposed to a GLI. I am opposed to people pretending to be advocates of such groups, submitting an embarassing report such as the one cited in the article.

How many people do you think the author of the report will win over when she explains that taxpayers should pay to ensure every one has enough money to travel and understand different cultures? What percentage of the population do you think agrees with that?

She may have many good points, but from the few things the Sun columnist mentioned, it is clear that whatever good points she has, are undermined by several points so weak to be laughable.

quote:

Again: If there is something wrong with a GLI proposal then show how the jobs "solution" would address the above problems which include: massive poverty, exploitation of half the world's population, massive waste and degradation of nature, and the continued denial of mass murder, theft of indigenous lands and slavery as being the roots of economic growth and "development."

I don't know that there is something wrong with a GLI, although I am sure that you and I would differ over the amount. I would love to see it implemented, although I think it is more realistic to see it happen on a national level, before an international level.

Just out of interest, does this 73 page report have a budget to show where the money will come from, and how it will be distributed - nationally or internationally?

quote:

Nor will the likes of poster Pearson ever be able to rationaize the very real existence of Canadian government policies that maintain an ARTIFICIAL level of unemployent as a hedge against inflation. An abomination of politicial prejudice that makes a GLI even more relevant and necessary.

How curious that you seem to be able to judge me so quickly. Quite a talent you have there. As a matter of fact, I have argued that if the minimum wage were to be removed, as some libertarians believe, it should only happen if there was a GLI in place. That way, people would not have to work full time at a level in which they are barely able to sustain themselves under deplorable conditions. There is a nearly limitless supply of unskilled labour such that the market will never hit equilibrium as long as people need jobs to survive.


From: 905 Oasis | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged

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