quote:

---

The Palestinian militant organization Hamas not only wants the elimination of the state of Israel, but also the extermination of the Jews, according to the group’s newspaper.

"The extermination of Jews is Allah’s will and is for the benefit of all humanity, according to an article in the Hamas paper Al-Risalah,” the Palestinian Media Watch (PMW) reports.

"The author of the article, Kan’an Ubayd, explains that the suicide operations carried out by Hamas are being committed solely to fulfill Allah’s wishes. Furthermore, Allah demanded this action, because ‘the extermination of the Jews is good for the inhabitants of the worlds.’”

PMW points out that Hamas’ justification for the extermination of the Jews echoes Adolph Hitler’s words in "Mein Kampf”: "Thus I believe today that I am acting according to the will of the almighty Creator: when I defend myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”[QUOTE]

It gets even juicier here.

[QUOTE]And in a televised speech, Dr. Ahmad Bahar, Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, called for the killing of Americans as well as Jews. Bahar said his people were "afflicted by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation,” according to a transcript provided by the PMW.

"Be certain that America is on its way to disappear. America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan. America is defeated and Israel is defeated . . . Allah, take hold of the Jews and their allies. Allah, take hold of the Americans and their allies . . . Allah, count them and kill them to the last one and don’t leave even one.”

---

[ 06 May 2007: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

[ 06 May 2007: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

Got a link? I see that the main source quoted in the article is the anti-Arab hate organization, "Palestinian Media Watch".

[ 06 May 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]

2. Your title makes it look like some official Hamas newspaper that came up with such statements.

3. It could be some nut case who uttered such crap and Israel has of course its own brand of these nuts.

Where as the head of this Palestinian Media Watch, Itmas Marcus has this on his QV:

quote:

---

Itamar Marcus is director of Palestinian Media Watch.

Mr. Marcus was also the Director of Research for the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace from 1998 - 2000, writing studies on Palestinian, Jordanian, and Syrian school textbooks.

Mr. Marcus was a member of the Israeli delegation to the Tri-lateral [American, Israeli and Palestinian] Committee to Monitor Incitement, established under the Wye Accords.

Palestinian Media Watch prepared the material for the Israeli delegation that was submitted at these negotiations

---

This website, called PA Promoting and Glorifying Terrorism and Murder lists some of the 'independant and unbiased publications' of this bunch.

It appears he has discovered a new meaning of 'independant' that has managed to escape me all these years.

[ 06 May 2007: Message edited by: Croghan27 ]

BTW: the fact that Paul Jackson wrote something equally reprehensible is no excuse. I've never heard of anyone on the "left" trying to be an apologist for Paul Jackson and defending him from criticism - nor should they.

quote:

---

Originally posted by bohajal:
2. Your title makes it look like some official Hamas newspaper that came up with such statements...or I will ask a moderator to close this thread.

---

I think it should be closed anyway because of the title. In the case of the Calgary Sun article, we all knew it was true and said we could read it and see for ourselves, and thereby denounce it for what it was.

I have no doubt that the extermination of Jews is not something they vehemently oppose, though.

People on the left who pretend this is not true have probably never spoken to a Hamas militant, nor have they wondered about the activities of Hamas' sponsor state, Iraq, and its Holocaust-denial Conference, or about the "mysterious" fact that the official investigation of the bombing of the Jewish Centre in Argentina (70 dead Jews) has concluded that it was the work of Iran.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeff house:
Usually, Hamas won't openly state they favour the extermination of Jews.

I have no doubt that the extermination of Jews is not something they vehemently oppose, though.

People on the left who pretend this is not true have probably never spoken to a Hamas militant, nor have they wondered about the activities of Hamas' sponsor state, Iraq, and its Holocaust-denial Conference, or about the "mysterious" fact that the official investigation of the bombing of the Jewish Centre in Argentina (70 dead Jews) has concluded that it was the work of Iran.

The fact that Hamas is deeply racist doesn't excuse anything Israel has done; but pretending is for hypocrites.

---

er....er....er... Jeff ... Iran is an overwhelming Shi'ite society and its' support can be seen with Hezbollah, a Shi'ite organization. Hamas is south of Israel and is Sunni. I understand it is claimed that Hezbollah did indeed aid in the destruction of the Jewish Centre in Argentina but that one of the few instances of it acting outside of Lebanon.

I was invited today to go to an anti-Israel meeting in downtown Ottawa - but the organizers of it are also worried about the traditional unity between homosexuals and Jews.. I managed to restrain my disgust.

Canada has obviously transgressed some human rights statutes in its treatment of prisoners in Afghanistan, but not all Canadian have done that - and after denying it, the government has (said they have) taken steps to curtail it.

Hamas will never accept the existance of the State of Israel, that they have not and do not hide that. Yet in the same way that governments that say they will never deal with terrorists, then deal with terrorists (a prime example is Israel itself) (England with the IRA is another one)it is apparent they will deal with Israel - maybe calling it the Zionist entity, but deal they shall.

[ 06 May 2007: Message edited by: Croghan27 ]

quote:

---

And I will be happy to discuss that with you when you have a credible source to back up claims of anti-Jewish statements.
And they exist. I readily acknowledge that.

---

So they exist but you won't discuss it until we have a "credible source".

Well, what are the sources YOU are relying on in making your admission? Presumably you think they are credible.

While you are reluctant to discuss Hamas racism, you at least admit that there is a significant current of anti-Jewish racism within Hamas.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Coyote:
...I believe in standards of evidence, and that accusation does not equal guilt, especially when we know how the lie-machine of the American Right works.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:

Please, do not limit it to the lie-machine of the American Right, there is exactly the same lie-machine present in the Canadian Right, working in exactly the same way.

---

Not true, not true, remind, not true

But instead, let's change the topic and criticise the NDP.

That way, we can obscure the fact that we are supporting a racist group.

Yes, that terrible Jack Layton, he is so unprogressive compared to the Iranian theology party with its deep-seated anti-wmoan attitudes to go along with its racism!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Croghan27:
Not true, not true, remind, not true

Here they very consciously say "Eh" a lot, keep their Time Magazine carefully hidden inside their Macleans or Western Report, and pretend to laugh at Rick Mercer (even when they don't get the joke).

---

true enough, but I have found Mercer, in his last few programs most definitely showing favourtism to the right.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeff house:
Oh and here I thought the topic was racism.

But instead, let's change the topic and criticise the NDP.

That way, we can obscure the fact that we are supporting a racist group.

Yes, that terrible Jack Layton, he is so unprogressive compared to the Iranian theology party with its deep-seated anti-wmoan attitudes to go along with its racism!

Oh Jack, you've lost your way!! Listen to "liberals" like the Iran Apology Lobby.

---

Are you like being a tad sarcastic here Jeff? It might be a bit more funny if it was clear who your target was. I've never "supported" Hamas myself, here or elsewhere, but I learned to tolerate their presence after they were democratically elected and proceeded to show more restraint than the state of Israel did during the last war (and since) and actually said that they too would recognise Israels right to exist IF that right was reciprocated. Israel's leaders said no.

Maybe if the centre-left themselves offered more forthright criticism of the cruel and ultimately pointless concentration camp policies pursued against the long suffering Palestinian peoples, others further to the left would be more willing to take a more "nuanced" view too. As it stands this is one large case where the huge disparity of power has to be considered first. Ahmedinejad and the Khomeinies can go screw themmselves for all I care. Hamas OTOH has zero ability to destroy the state of Israel, let alone kill the Jewish people, let alone us Canadians, but Israel has been doing just that to Palestine for forty years now with barely a note of protest among liberals.

Far as this particular item is concerned, I too would like to see a bit more evidence that this was indeed printed by "the Hamas press" than the statement printed in this known anti-Palestinian source. There, we're all back on subject again.

[ 06 May 2007: Message edited by: EriKtheHalfaRed ]

quote:

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Originally posted by remind:

true enough, but I have found Mercer, in his last few programs most definitely showing favourtism to the right.

---

This holier-than-thou shit is so fuckin' stupid.

Gosh, some of the Palestinians living in refugee camps for the last fifty years are a little pissy! Intemperate even!

quote:

---

Originally posted by EriKtheHalfaRed:

Yeah, the old "22 minutes" crew has become progressively more conservative and progressively less funny. Rarely watch any of them anymore. Maybe humour is only found illuminating the truth.

---

Erik, I am exposed once again I really do not watch TV, save for the reality shows - reality TV for me being footballs and baseball.

[ 06 May 2007: Message edited by: Merowe ]

Unimaginable, really. They must be savages. Nothing a few random artillery shells or sniper bullets won't cure, eh?

I don't care if what Stockholm quoted was true or not. The fact is, some blathering in an obscure newspaper pales in comparison to the very real crimes against humanity committed by Israel as a matter of policy.

Stockholm didn't endorse this site. He didn't say that this characterizes all Palestinions, or all Muslims, nor do I believe he believes that. In fact he made the post with little peripheral comment.

So, what can we draw from the opening post. Like it or not, that such factions hold these view is part of the reality that everyone in the region, as well as states imposing themselves in the region, have to deal with. I and many here don't think they're dealing wisely.

quote:

---

Astonishing! You treat people worse than dogs for a few decades, steal their land, bottle them up in walled in prisons, rob their treasury, slaughter their leadership, literally STARVE their children....and they say nasty things about you! Even, below the belt, dumb-fuck-ignorant comments about International Jewry!

---

I'd say there was a kernel of wisdom in that. However...

quote:

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Stockholm, I'm too broke right now...but maybe YOU should go chill out in Gaza for a little while, tweak your perspective a few degrees back towards reality.

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That's pretty unnecessary.

[ 06 May 2007: Message edited by: oldgoat ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Merowe:
Astonishing! You treat people worse than dogs for a few decades...

---

And then, those ungrateful Palestinians vote in... a more RADICAL faction?

Gosh, I can't think why.

Stockholm, if I was a third generation Arab refugee who lived in Palestine, I wouldn't feel a lot of love for Israelis either. And if pulling the 'Jewish' chain got their goat, I'd just pull it all the harder, oh boy would I wind them up with every pathetic tool at my disposal, in the absence of a nice fat Yank supported high tech war machine, a few Apaches and cluster bombs and drones to do real damage.

Dude, you can be SO dumb sometimes, in a shoe-on-the-other-foot kind of way.

quote:

---

The leader of Hamas has rejected a US proposal for a detailed timeline to ease Palestinian movement and improve Israeli security.

Instead, Khaled Meshaal said he believed Israel was planning a military attack against the Palestinians.

---

from Al Jazeera

from what I can see Israel wants to supply arms to Fatah, noted for killing Hamas members, in exchange for them rearranging border points and promising to stop the occasional rocket attack into Israel.

quote:

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Meanwhile, fighters in the Gaza Strip fired three rockets towards Israel on Saturday, damaging a house in the town of Sderot.

The attack was said to have been made to avenge the killing of three members of the group by Israeli undercover troops in the West Bank a day earlier.

---

quote:

---

Usually, Hamas won't openly state they favour the extermination of Jews.
I have no doubt that the extermination of Jews is not something they vehemently oppose, though.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldgoat:
I see no reason to pillory Stockholm for his opening post. Yeah, when he found the link, it was to a pretty undesirable site, but sometimes that's where you find that crap. While places like that print a lot of garbage, I see no reason to doubt that there are elements who say stuff like that, and they have people around them who will set off bombs.

Stockholm didn't endorse this site. He didn't say that this characterizes all Palestinions, or all Muslims, nor do I believe he believes that. In fact he made the post with little peripheral comment.

So, what can we draw from the opening post. Like it or not, that such factions hold these view is part of the reality that everyone in the region, as well as states imposing themselves in the region, have to deal with. I and many here don't think they're dealing wisely.

That's pretty unnecessary.

[ 06 May 2007: Message edited by: oldgoat ]

---

Oh goodness, a moderator. Oopsie, an'all.

In all seriousness, I'd like to go to Gaza myself, just to see. AND, c'mon, Stockholm's no dummy, he/she knew exactly what they were doing in fielding that rabid little Hamas quote. Stirring it up.

Er, and, YEAH, some people set off bombs. Even women, lately. Whiff of desperation, anybody? Last resort kinda stuff goin' down? Check the latest UN figures on malnutrition in Gaza and the West Bank. Compared, to, say, life on the OTHER side of the wall. Where they're set to lynch their PM after losing the last sordid little war they massively supported at the time.

quote:

---

ortho-Trot New York Jewish buddy

---

Hey I met one of them the other day in the Legion here. Okay, drop the ortho .... but definitely a trot. (and from Liverpool, not NYC).

Just a GP he had been a 'coaler' on a British ship for the invasion of Egypt in '56.

quote:

---

Astonishing! You treat people worse than dogs for a few decades, steal their land, bottle them up in walled in prisons, rob their treasury, slaughter their leadership, literally STARVE their children....and they say nasty things about you! Even, below the belt, dumb-fuck-ignorant comments about International Jewry!

---

quote:

---

Far worse things have been done to the Jews over the past 1,000 years - but I never see opinion pieces in mainstream Jewish or Israeli newspapers claiming that it's "God's will" that every single solitary Gentile be exterminated.

---

No, the extermination calls are for the Arabs that have the audacity to live there.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jingles:

No, the extermination calls are for the Arabs that have the audacity to live there.

But it is refreshing to see you admit that what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is some sort of collective punishment for the past injustices to Jews everywhere else.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
Far worse things have been done to the Jews over the past 1,000 years - but I never see opinion pieces in mainstream Jewish or Israeli newspapers claiming that it's "God's will" that every single solitary Gentile be exterminated.

---

Is a Hamas newsletter (or wherever this appeared - do we have a link yet, or are we still going from the word of a bunch of anti-Arab lying trash propaganda pushers who pretend to be "independent"?) considered a "mainstream Palestinian Newspaper"?

Because there have been an awful lot of vile things coming from the mouths of elected officials from right-wing hardliner parties in Israel, too.

Face it - shitty things are said on both sides. I don't doubt there's an awful lot of anti-semitism on the part of many Palestinian militants. It sucks.

But you know, a bunch of people with no weapons and no power being starved to death in open air prisons, making hateful and angry anti-semitic remarks as an expression of their rage and impotence is a lot less harmful than what the Israelis are doing to them. Doesn't make it okay. But really, I think it's kind of ironic that the same people who moan and beat their chests and tear their hair over stupid STATEMENTS like these don't have too much to say about the actual harm - you know, like mass killing through indiscriminate bombing (oopsie, collateral damage - what WERE all those stupid Palestinians doing living in the same apartment building as our target anyhow? oh well, I guess that means they were complicit and deserved to die too), mass starvation, mass imprisonment and theft of land and livelihood - that the Israeli state is perpetrating against the Palestinians and has been for decades.

But I do agree with you. Nobody should make horrible, anti-semitic comments like the ones outlined in the opening post. They are very, very wrong.

I think we can all agree that it is very, very wrong to say horrible things about Jews. I think we can all agree that it's very, very wrong to blame all Jews for what is happening in Israel. I think we can all agree that it is wrong for anyone to call for "the extermination of the Jews".

It's a sign of hope that they've figured out that Israel is not the "State of the Jews" at all, but rather, an outpost of colonialism that rejects what is best in Judaism.

For Stockholm to open this thread with a rare (and uncorroborated) anti-Jewish statement on the part of Hamas is another sign of how Zionism works to divide people from each other; to sow hatred and racism; to justify aggression, occupation, terror, and de-humanization of one's "enemy".

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:
What I find incredible - and inspiring - is that Arabs and their media don't routinely condemn the Jewish people.

It's a sign of hope that they've figured out that Israel is not the "State of the Jews" at all, but rather, an outpost of colonialism that rejects what is best in Judaism.

For Stockholm to open this thread with a rare (and uncorroborated) anti-Jewish statement on the part of Hamas is another sign of how Zionism works to divide people from each other; to sow hatred and racism; to justify aggression, occupation, terror, and de-humanization of one's "enemy".

One day, Arabs and Jews of all national origins will join hands in the Middle East and wipe out the U.S., Britain, and other modern-day colonialists, and their allies of all religions and origins. It's a glorious day worth waiting and working for.

---

Ya wanna link?

It is somewhat instructive to read the 1988 Hamas Charter or Covenant, one of Hamas's founding documents. This covenant is available at reputable sites all over the web: here is a link from Yale's Law School. Here is another link, from the Palestine Center -- established by The Jerusalem Fund, which seems to be a moderate pro-Palestinian outfit based in Washington D.C.

This document first remarks that "the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take," and then quotes the Prophet as follows: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

Of the Zionists, this document claims that "their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

I wrote on my now pretty much defunct blog, back when the Palestinian elections that ushered in the Hamas era took place, that I was far from sanguine about their ascendancy. I maintain that. To me, Hamas is like other organizations of its kind that can be found around the world; a notable (and instructive) parallel can be found in India with the BJP/RSS, which combines race and religion to form a Hindu nationalist front that sees itself and its own social organizations as above the laws of the state. Both combine chauvanistic militarism with an impressive social welfare system, appealing to heart and body, if you will.

There is no question in my mind that Hamas is an obstacle to peace.

But there is a greater.

Advocates for Israel on this board and elsewhere in the Western media speak about the two-state solution, and I think they honestly believe in it (as do I). What they do not mention is the fact that every viable political enity in Israel backs down to the settler movement. Daily, and all one has to do is read Arutz Sheva to know I am speaking the truth, the entire notion of a two-state solution is called into question.

In fact, the entire idea of peace at all is called into question.

This can be found daily, in english, with the click of a button. But somehow, these opinion articles (including a recent one advocating the fire-bombing of political rallies in Palestinian cities) are never brought to light as an obstacle to peace.

These are leaders of the settler movement, openly promoting race war, and they are able to slide under the radar and escape analysis and criticism.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Coyote:
Advocates for Israel on this board and elsewhere in the Western media speak about the two-state solution, and I think they honestly believe in it (as do I).

---

They, meaning the zionist apologists, here and elsewhere, do not want a two state solution. A perpetual war-like domestic posture facilitates the stranglehold on annexed and occupied land. Every talk of peace results in a guided missle attack somewhere to stoke the fires even more, to ensure the continuing hatred of an enemy they know will retailate with some primative contraption, thereby perpetuating the brutal chokehold on an entire population. The only way peace will be achieved is if the Palestinians just give up asking for anything and give up their futile fits of violence against a better armed conqueror and accept their fate. The zionists certainly won't budge an inch from what they've taken, and why should they, as long as the US is their benefactor and arms supplier.

[ 07 May 2007: Message edited by: Slumberjack ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michelle:
[QB] Do we have a link yet, or are we still going from the word of a bunch of anti-Arab lying trash propaganda pushers who pretend to be "independent"?)QB]

---

So why do we have to read the words of anti-Arab lying trash propaganda pushers here in Babble. Consider this thread as an example. There's zero tolerance here for crass right wing dolts, so why the different standard now? Because they say they have some left leaning views?

[ 07 May 2007: Message edited by: Slumberjack ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeff house:
Usually, Hamas won't openly state they favour the extermination of Jews.
I have no doubt that the extermination of Jews is not something they vehemently oppose, though.
People on the left who pretend this is not true have probably never spoken to a Hamas militant, nor have they wondered about the activities of Hamas' sponsor state, Iraq, and its Holocaust-denial Conference, or about the "mysterious" fact that the official investigation of the bombing of the Jewish Centre in Argentina (70 dead Jews) has concluded that it was the work of Iran. The fact that Hamas is deeply racist doesn't excuse anything Israel has done; but pretending is for hypocrites.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
Far worse things have been done to the Jews over the past 1,000 years - but I never see opinion pieces in mainstream Jewish or Israeli newspapers claiming that it's "God's will" that every single solitary Gentile be exterminated.

---

quote:

---

Of course not, there's too many of them, and combined, they're militarily stronger.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldgoat:
I see no reason to pillory Stockholm for his opening post. Yeah, when he found the link, it was to a pretty undesirable site, but sometimes that's where you find that crap. While places like that print a lot of garbage, I see no reason to doubt that there are elements who say stuff like that, and they have people around them who will set off bombs. Stockholm didn't endorse this site. He didn't say that this characterizes all Palestinions, or all Muslims, nor do I believe he believes that. In fact he made the post with little peripheral comment.
So, what can we draw from the opening post. Like it or not, that such factions hold these view is part of the reality that everyone in the region, as well as states imposing themselves in the region, have to deal with. I and many here don't think they're dealing wisely. That's pretty unnecessary.[ 06 May 2007: Message edited by: oldgoat ]

---

Anybody can find a bunch of objectionable crap, but does it mean it should be posted here without context and without mentioning the fetid source from which it was 'reported?' Anyone posting unsourced right wing crap here without some context would be gone immediately from what I've seen. We know documented and loathsome stuff exists out there and it's right to be aware of it. There's a difference between making people aware of what's out there and displaying it for a specific purpose other than honest information. These are sensitive issues, and without that all important context, reasonably, there should be latitude given to ascertain the motives, even at the risk of pillory.

[ 07 May 2007: Message edited by: Slumberjack ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:

Israel (pop. 6,000,000)
Arab countries (pop. 200,000,000)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:

Israel (pop. 6,000,000)
Arab countries (pop. 200,000,000)

---

Not that it matters, but...

USA plus Israel (pop. 307,000,000)
Arab countries (pop. 200,000,000)

I only mention this because so often we hear that Israel is a veritable mouse before the Arab giant, but this comparison seems inherently flawed, given that Israel and the USA are joined at the hip, given that successive American governments have poured hardware and money into the Israeli military machine, and given that the most powerful voting block in the US--the Christian right--is fanatically committed to Israel's defense. If population counts mean anything--which is quite questionable, since the most relevant variable in all of this is the relative power of the respective military forces, and since the sheer power of the Israeli and American military machines dwarfs the rather feeble military forces of the Arab countries--then surely we should add the American population to the Israeli in order to arrive at a total.

[ 07 May 2007: Message edited by: Michael Nenonen ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:

Israel (pop. 6,000,000)
Arab countries (pop. 200,000,000)

---

Few things Stockholm.

Palestinians are not just "Arabs" generis, that kind of portrayal is too often used to deny them their particular claims to that particular strip of dirt.

Second, "genocide" is not just the extermination of a people, it can include the extermination of a nationality, their culture and their hope.

Third, please reread what Coyote said, it could be put in other ways perhaps, but I thought it was a very balanced attempt to get beyond the usual irreconcilable positions.

And please supply some evidence that this unusually provacative statement was actualy made by whom it was said to be made, from a halfway credible source, or others here will just shrug it off as an attempt to divert attention from the criminal actions of Israel towards the aboriginal peoples of area. This thread shouldn't be used as an excuse to post every single negative thing that may or may not have been said by "Arabs" about "Jews", especially when we still haven't see any credible confirmation of your opening gambit.

[ 07 May 2007: Message edited by: EriKtheHalfaRed ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
OK, but then add another billion non-Arab Muslims who would dearly love to see Israel eliminated.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
OK, but then add another billion non-Arab Muslims who would dearly love to see Israel eliminated.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EriKtheHalfaRed:

And please take that back or I'll PM the mods myself. You should know the rules by now about making such hostile generalizations here.

---

My point in posting the original article is that there is a reason why a lot of people in Israel feel they have no choice but to take a hardline against Hamas - they see quotes and articles like this and they believe that they are dealing with a totally irrational opponent who is completely motivated by irrational hate. Whether its true or not - most Israelis believe it - and everytime that people from Hamas say things like this all they are doing is making the Israelis even more defensive and intransigent.

I think the vast majority of Israelis would make massive territorial concessions almost instantly if they didn't honestly believed that Hamas would only use the territory as a spring board to launch a war of extermination.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Slumberjack:
Its a fact that Hamas is deeply racist?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Slumberjack:

Take that back! Where are those schoolyard supervisors when we need them.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Martha (but not Stewart):
The remarks from the Hamas charter, quoted in my post above, suggest that this is a distinct possibility.

---

That's useful information, Martha. Next you'll be finding quotes to prove that South African blacks didn't like the Afrikaaners. Or that Aboriginal Canadians bear ill will to those of European descent. Or that Iraqis and Afghans hate U.S. and other NATO types.

The hatred of one's oppressors, and shedding of fear of them, has always been an important motor of historical progress.

What is really tragic and criminal is when the oppressors call themselves "Jews" and claim to be acting on behalf of the "Jewish people". Even the most cool-headed among the oppressed will then occasionally be fooled into believing that that is so. And voilà, you have "racism" and "anti-Semitism".

quote:

---

Stockholm: My point in posting the original article is that there is a reason why a lot of people in Israel feel they have no choice but to take a hardline against Hamas

---

So the purpose of the original post was to justify Israeli antagonism towards peaceful coexistence with its neighbours. As well, there is the additional demand that the victims of Israeli apartheid renounce, unconditionally, their right to resist BEFORE Israelis feel "secure enough" to make "any further" concessions.

Apartheid walls, ethnic cleansing, targetted assassinations, imprisonment of children, routine use of torture in Israeli dungeons, phosphorus, cluster and depleted uranium weapons used in the recent invasion of Lebanon and bombing of Gaza, etc., etc. are indeed remarkable concessions. One wonders what Israel will do to its victims if it abandons its current "peaceful" and concession-oriented policies.

quote:

---

If you want to make peace, you don't talk to your friends. You talk to your enemies. - Moshe Dayan

---

There has never been a greater moment for one of the sides to step up to the table and say "enough, we will stop, just listen to us".

Israel, despite Stockholms pleadings that it's under constant threat of being pushed into the sea IS the stronger contingent in the area and has the ability to do far more damage than the Palestinians (with the rest of the Arab/Muslim world helping). They have the position to stop the fighting but they continue to do things either intentionally or unintentionally that either break international law or piss off the Palestinians.

In fact, Hamas has offered to meet for peace discussions many times, but have been unable to meet Israels completely unreasonable demand of disarming the entire population (impossible due to the fact that Hamas does not control all of the various palestinian factions). Meanwhile the Palestinian government has asked for one thing to stop, the settlements, however Israel continues to expand and ignore international law.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
OK, but then add another billion non-Arab Muslims who would dearly love to see Israel eliminated.

---

Wow. Stereotype and generalize much?

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:
That's useful information, Martha. Next you'll be finding quotes to prove that South African blacks didn't like the Afrikaaners. Or that Aboriginal Canadians bear ill will to those of European descent. Or that Iraqis and Afghans hate U.S. and other NATO types.

The hatred of one's oppressors, and shedding of fear of them, has always been an important motor of historical progress.

What is really tragic and criminal is when the oppressors call themselves "Jews" and claim to be acting on behalf of the "Jewish people". Even the most cool-headed among the oppressed will then occasionally be fooled into believing that that is so. And voilà, you have "racism" and "anti-Semitism".

Ah, the many excuses we concoct to blame the victims for the crime!

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Unionist, I certainly do not blame the Palestinians for the many crimes that have been committed against them by the state of Israel, and before that by various paramilitary forces. I remember reading a passage from Rabin's memoirs, in which he details the expulsion of the entire populations of several villages -- they just rounded the people up, forced them at gunpoint onto buses, and drove them to the border. I will try to look up the exact passage and post it.

Moreover, I do understand that being a member of oppressed groups can cause you to hate your oppressors. It can even cause you to hate completely innocent people who have never oppressed you but who share certain characteristics with your oppressors: the same "race", or ethnicity, or linguistic group, or gender, or skin colouring, or country of origin. This is unfortunate but not surprising.

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In fact, Hamas has offered to meet for peace discussions many times, but have been unable to meet Israels completely unreasonable demand of disarming the entire population (impossible due to the fact that Hamas does not control all of the various palestinian factions).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Martha (but not Stewart):
The especially worrisome thing about Hamas is not only that some of its members and indeed some of its leadership feel this hatred, but that this hatred is enshrined in one of their founding documents.

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Worrisome?

Hamas is an ultra-religious reactionary organization which has glorified terrorism and practised it until not long ago, and has shown itself to be utterly useless, and worse than useless, in advancing the cause of the Palestinian people.

That's the fruit of Israel's refusal to stop attacking, occupying, killing, imprisoning, denying, and humiliating the Palestinian people for almost 60 years.

Israel created this situation, and only Israel (and its backers) can resolve it - by abandoning the occupied territories, foregoing aggression of all kinds, and talking peace. There is nothing the Palestinian side can do to initiate that process, because they have nothing. The Palestinians will reject Hamas and its ilk when they no longer have need of them.

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Originally posted by unionist:

Worrisome?

Hamas is an ultra-religious reactionary organization which has glorified terrorism and practised it until not long ago, and has shown itself to be utterly useless, and worse than useless, in advancing the cause of the Palestinian people.

That's the fruit of Israel's refusal to stop attacking, occupying, killing, imprisoning, denying, and humiliating the Palestinian people for almost 60 years.

Israel created this situation, and only Israel (and its backers) can resolve it - by abandoning the occupied territories, foregoing aggression of all kinds, and talking peace. There is nothing the Palestinian side can do to initiate that process, because they have nothing. The Palestinians will reject Hamas and its ilk when they no longer have need of them.

Until Israel stops acting like a barbaric terrorist state, everyone in the region - Jews included - lives in danger. Regardless of what it says in the Hamas charter.

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Well put, my view exactly.

(Others please note the lack of trust and respect for the Hamas here, just to spare us all more time on irrelevant side issues)

[ 08 May 2007: Message edited by: EriKtheHalfaRed ]

quote:

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Proof Please

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Here
Israel refuses to move to detailed peace negotiations as long as Palestinian militants continue firing rockets from Gaza and hold Cpl. Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier captured by Hamas-linked militants last June.
Here
Olmert has refused to address final status issues unless the Palestinian Authority government, a coalition of Abbas' Fatah movement and the Hamas movement that refuses to make peace with Israel, explicitly recognizes the Jewish state and forswears violence.
Here
Hamas's Nasser al-Shaer: education minister and deputy prime minister in the new coalition government. He signaled that this regime recognizes Israel's right to exist and forgoes violence -- conditions essential for talks about a viable Palestinian state adjoining Israel
and Here.
The Arabs are serious about making peace with Israel. They are also serious about launching negotiations with Israel to achieve peace on the basis of the Arab peace plan.

Want more?

[ 08 May 2007: Message edited by: quelar ]

- Hamas uses political activities to pursue its goal of establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel and the secular Palestinian Authority

- Hamas believes that "the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf (trust) consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day," and as such, the land cannot be negotiated away by any political leader.

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Originally posted by riptide:

So it may be that "In fact, Hamas has offered to meet for peace discussions many times" but one wonders what peace means for them. Co-existence with Israel does not seem to be part of it.

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I would love to enter into negotiation with some of those who propose Israel alone is at fault for lack of negotiation. I would love to enter into a negotiation with them and me and my partner, The Mafia.

It may be that watchers of the Arab Press may be taken to task on particular stories but the reason they are out there is because the Arab Press IS awash in anti-semitism. And Gaza has not yet decided to hold back and show an example of behaving differently either.

Here's the article, " Middle Eastern Media Awash in Anti-Semitism" in Der Spiegel

No real point to the link, just saying, it happens on both sides.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jingles:

No, the extermination calls are for the Arabs that have the audacity to live there.
.

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They're both connected to Israeli military intelligence, and are known for dubious translations and/or finding the very worst examples of media from the Arab world, and presenting them as if they're somehow representative. See this article from the Guardian about MEMRI

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,773258,00.html

Selective Memri

Brian Whitaker investigates whether the 'independent' media institute that translates the Arabic newspapers is quite what it seems

Brian Whitaker
Monday August 12, 2002
Guardian Unlimited

For some time now, I have been receiving small gifts from a generous institute in the United States. The gifts are high-quality translations of articles from Arabic newspapers which the institute sends to me by email every few days, entirely free-of-charge.

The emails also go to politicians and academics, as well as to lots of other journalists. The stories they contain are usually interesting.

[...]several things make me uneasy whenever I'm asked to look at a story circulated by Memri. First of all, it's a rather mysterious organisation. Its website does not give the names of any people to contact, not even an office address.

[...]The second thing that makes me uneasy is that the stories selected by Memri for translation follow a familiar pattern: either they reflect badly on the character of Arabs or they in some way further the political agenda of Israel. I am not alone in this unease.

Ibrahim Hooper of the Council on American-Islamic Relations told the Washington Times: "Memri's intent is to find the worst possible quotes from the Muslim world and disseminate them as widely as possible."

Memri might, of course, argue that it is seeking to encourage moderation by highlighting the blatant examples of intolerance and extremism. But if so, one would expect it - for the sake of non-partisanship - t o publicise extremist articles in the Hebrew media too.

Although Memri claims that it does provide translations from Hebrew media, I can't recall receiving any.

Evidence from Memri's website also casts doubt on its non-partisan status. Besides supporting liberal democracy, civil society, and the free market, the institute also emphasises "the continuing relevance of Zionism to the Jewish people and to the state of Israel".

[....]The reason for Memri's air of secrecy becomes clearer when we look at the people behind it. The co-founder and president of Memri, and the registered owner of its website, is an Israeli called Yigal Carmon.

Mr - or rather, Colonel - Carmon spent 22 years in Israeli military intelligence and later served as counter-terrorism adviser to two Israeli prime ministers, Yitzhak Shamir and Yitzhak Rabin.

Retrieving another now-deleted page from the archives of Memri's website also throws up a list of its staff. Of the six people named, three - including Col Carmon - are described as having worked for Israeli intelligence.

[...]Earlier this year, Memri scored two significant propaganda successes against Saudi Arabia. The first was its translation of an article from al-Riyadh newspaper in which a columnist wrote that Jews use the blood of Christian or Muslim children in pastries for the Purim religious festival.

[...] Memri claimed al-Riyadh was a Saudi "government newspaper" - in fact it's privately owned - implying that the article had some form of official approval.

Al-Riyadh's editor said he had not seen the article before publication because he had been abroad. He apologised without hesitation and sacked his columnist, but by then the damage had been done.

Memri's next success came a month later when Saudi Arabia's ambassador to London wrote a poem entitled The Martyrs - about a young woman suicide bomber - which was published in al-Hayat newspaper.

Memri sent out translated extracts from the poem, which it described as "praising suicide bombers". Whether that was the poem's real message is a matter of interpretation. It could, perhaps more plausibly, be read as condemning the political ineffectiveness of Arab leaders, but Memri's interpretation was reported, almost without question, by the western media.

[...]To anyone who reads Arabic newspapers regularly, it should be obvious that the items highlighted by Memri are those that suit its agenda and are not representative of the newspapers' content as a whole.

The danger is that many of the senators, congressmen and "opinion formers" who don't read Arabic but receive Memri's emails may get the idea that these extreme examples are not only truly representative but also reflect the policies of Arab governments.

Memri's Col Carmon seems eager to encourage them in that belief. In Washington last April, in testimony to the House committee on international relations, he portrayed the Arab media as part of a wide-scale system of government-sponsored indoctrination.

[...]In the case of the al-Jazeera satellite channel, he added, "the overwhelming majority of guests and callers are typically anti-American and anti-semitic".

Unfortunately, it is on the basis of such sweeping generalisations that much of American foreign policy is built these days....

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[ 18 May 2007: Message edited by: Connolly ]

Would you please cut back that quote to just a select few paragraphs from the article? Reproducing an article in full is a no-no on babble. It's not only a violation of copyright, but it also disrupts the flow of conversation.

The enemy of my enemy is NOT my friend. When fighting against militarism and imperialism the left can not climb into bed with militant groups simply because they are fighting America and its proxies. Nor should we romanticise and embrace the myth of the "Freedom Fighter"

Killing is wrong pure and simple.

Where are the Palestinian Ghandis and Martin Luther Kings. Passive resistance has the only moral authority to break an empire. Imagine thousands, hundreds of thousands, of Palestinians passively sitting down and refusing to move from the Dome on the Rock. Resisting all brutality thrown at them by passively enduring it. Israel's moral authority and claim to self defence would be gone within the week.

We either play the game of imperialism and encourage people to pick up a gun or we embrace pacifism and change the world for the better.

Does Iran oppose the United States? Well, then, let's pretend Iran is "a form of socialism" and refuse to let ANY criticism of Iran go unanswered.

Of course, this is simplistic and counterproductive, but these folks are still out there, as if Orwell had never written Animal Farm, andf as if the Soviet Union had never collapsed from its own contradictions.

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"lefty" boy: Where are the Palestinian Ghandis and Martin Luther Kings [?]

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The body of Rachel Corrie was crushed under an Israeli bulldozer. They backed it up after they ran over her the first time ... just to make sure she was dead. That's what Israel does to foreign witnesses. For Palestinians, it's targetted assasinations, deportation, ethnic cleansing, torture in Israeli dungeons, imprisonment of hundreds of children, phosphorus and cluster bombs, depleted uranium "bunker busters" and all the weapons at the disposal of an apartheid regime.

Leftyboy, please read above before leaping to broad conclusions about other lefties. This for example seemed to get through here without too much controversy:

posted 08 May 2007 01:08 PM

Worrisome?

Hamas is an ultra-religious reactionary organization which has glorified terrorism and practised it until not long ago, and has shown itself to be utterly useless, and worse than useless, in advancing the cause of the Palestinian people.

That's the fruit of Israel's refusal to stop attacking, occupying, killing, imprisoning, denying, and humiliating the Palestinian people for almost 60 years.

Israel created this situation, and only Israel (and its backers) can resolve it - by abandoning the occupied territories, foregoing aggression of all kinds, and talking peace. There is nothing the Palestinian side can do to initiate that process, because they have nothing. The Palestinians will reject Hamas and its ilk when they no longer have need of them.

Until Israel stops acting like a barbaric terrorist state, everyone in the region - Jews included - lives in danger. Regardless of what it says in the Hamas charter.

Well put, my view exactly.

(Others please note the lack of trust and respect for the Hamas here, just to spare us all more time on irrelevant side issues)

[ 19 May 2007: Message edited by: EriKtheHalfaRed ]

Pointing fingers at the "greater evil" is futile as evil is simply evil. I do not deny Israel's complicity and barbarism but said barbarism is no excuse to react in kind. Moral authority is given to those who renounce violence first. Somebody has to put their guns down first and it doesen't matter who.

Erik I am not "closing my eyes" to the situation but your equating lighting candles with being weak and ineffective is part of the problem.

N.Beltov putting the lefty in my name in quotes was an uncalled for personal attack. We may disagree with the process but please do not question my sincerity for social justice.

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Well, it's rather preposterous for Israel and its supporters to noisily call for a "Palestinain Gandhi" when Israel barely stops to reload.

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I haven't "noisily" called for anything. Perhaps you are trying by rhetorical devices, to mislead people here on Babble.

And that line about reloading? Good rhetoric, but bad thinking, and bad strategy. The problem is that NEITHER side "pauses to reload".

It's easy to stand tall for a violent solution in the Middle East when you're safe in Canada.

quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:

I haven't "noisily" called for anything. Perhaps you are trying by rhetorical devices, to mislead people here on Babble.

And that line about reloading? Good rhetoric, but bad thinking, and bad strategy. The problem is that NEITHER side "pauses to reload".

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That's a deceitful allusion to parity, Zion-boy.

Palesttinians have little to reload.

[ 19 May 2007: Message edited by: Legless-Marine ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Legless-Marine:

That's a deceitful allusion to parity, Zion-boy.

Palesttinians have little to reload.

[ 19 May 2007: Message edited by: Legless-Marine ]

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quote:

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That's a deceitful allusion to parity, Zion-boy.

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quote:

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Originally posted by leftyboy:
Just because non-violent actions have yet to succeed does not mean they should be abandoned. The Jallianwala Bagh Massacre in India helped galvanise the noncooperation movement. As Britan depended on Indian labour, Israel depends on Palestinian labour and if that labour stays home or better yet stages a large non-violent protest, we would see a change in the conversation and the beginning of dialogue.

Pointing fingers at the "greater evil" is futile as evil is simply evil. I do not deny Israel's complicity and barbarism but said barbarism is no excuse to react in kind. Moral authority is given to those who renounce violence first. Somebody has to put their guns down first and it doesen't matter who.

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I'm not going to surf for links right now but I think you'll find, that while the violent tendencies among the Palestinians garner most of the press attention, there is a longstanding, parallel history of inspired, peaceful protest of every description, on both sides of the wall. Arguably its done some good; it just doesn't get the press.

In terms of somebody putting down their guns first, I'm reminded of a dark witticism of my brother's, at the news a couple of years ago that Israel had started using some new anti-personnel flechette munition which was shredding Palestinians in new and interesting ways.

He said, obviously the Palestinians will have to design a new and more effective rock. I mean, I truly applaud your Ghandian sentiments, I've been much exercised over the subject vis Palestine as well.

But I think you need to look at the mechanics of the Occupation before you equate the violence of either side. Israel deploys violence systematically to degrade the quality of life in the territories with the unstated intent of incrementally forcing the Palestinians off their pathetic little postage stamps. This isn't violence as an expression of frustration or as a response to abuse or other violence; this is a very specific form, of instrumental violence to achieve a very specific goal. The leadership has gone about this task fairly cleverly behind a peerless propaganda smokescreen.

It is a far more ominous and chilling violence, because of its industrial nature, than the sporadic bloody replies Palestinian extremists have managed. IMHO.