We are both from Australia, living in the USA and desperate to leave. I only speak English, but I would love the chance to learn a second language. I am a biologist with a PhD, looking to move away from the bench into something else. Clinical trials, perhaps?

I love the blue skies of Montreal, the beauty of Plateau, the low cost of living and the heterogeneity of cultures. Canada offers excellent education and cheap childcare if we decide to have children. I have never experienced temperatures below zero, though, and all that snow frightens me. We love to travel, and perhaps Montreal is too isolated?

Brussels is the capital of the EU, and with excellent rail connections to the rest of Europe. Perhaps my career options may be better here than in Montreal? But would I survive the daily grey and drizzle? Would the language barriers be too great?

This is the city that we hope will become our new home. We want to buy a house, become citizens, raise our children. We are looking for a city where we will find satisfying careers, and where we and our children will be happy.

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Originally posted by Morovitskaya:
My husband has two job offers - one Montreal, and one in Brussels. We are really torn as to which city to choose.

I only speak English, but I would love the chance to learn a second language.

Would the language barriers be too great?

This is the city that we hope will become our new home. We want to buy a house, become citizens, raise our children. We are looking for a city where we will find satisfying careers, and where we and our children will be happy.

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Both choices seem excellent.

With Belgium looking like it may split apart, I could quibble that you are looking to become citizens of . . . what? But in fact you would be becoming citizens of Europe.

Another small quibble: your linguistic goals are modest. Only one second language? In Bruxelles your children would grow up knowing more than two languages. But in either place your first second language would be French, and additional ones would be optional. (Personally I'd want my kids to learn Mandarin.)

Montreal has great quantities of snow and cold winters. Brussels doesn't.

Becoming a citizen of an EU country would open up a lot of doors for you if you intend to travel in Europe (and Brussels is ideally situated for doing so).

Am totally biased in favour of Montreal myself.

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
If you move to Brussels you may have to learn two languages. Certainly advisable, anyhow, if you intend to become Belgian citizens.

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Any advice?

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...[T]he language of instruction from kindergarten to secondary school is French. (The instruction language is the language in which the classes are taught.

Learning of English as a second language is mandatory for all children attending French school beginning in elementary school)... [Wikipedia]

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Originally posted by Morovitskaya:
I love the blue skies of Montreal, the beauty of Plateau, the low cost of living and the heterogeneity of cultures. Canada offers excellent education and cheap childcare if we decide to have children.

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Originally posted by toddsschneider:
Under Bill 101 . . . the language of instruction from kindergarten to secondary school is French. Learning of English as a second language is mandatory.

Ask yourself where you would have more educational freedom, Brussels or Montreal?

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French is pretty much a given in either choice.

I don't hate Brussels - there are some pretty parts, but its main benefit is that it is so close by train to Paris and Amsterdam, and not far from London or Northwestern Germany (Cologne, etc.), and even more distant European destinations are possible by rail.

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Originally posted by lagatta:
Educational freedom? You mean I can't move to Italy and demand that my children learn Mandarin?

French is pretty much a given in either choice ...

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Just as learning English is pretty much a given as a second language ... in China. Italy too, in the language-oriented schools.

There's nothing shameful in wanting to speak English, their mother tongue, as well as possible. Even Jacques Parizeau said he'd kick the ass of anyone among the cadres who didn't learn English.

[ 16 September 2008: Message edited by: toddsschneider ]

Some schools teach a third language as well.

So I don't get your point. Yes, Parizeau speaks beautiful English.

[ 16 September 2008: Message edited by: lagatta ]

My husband has been offered a job at one of the universities in both cities. In Montreal, the research funding would be based on competitive grants, but the salary is generous. In Belgium, while the job comes with world-class funding for research, the salary is not one of those excessive expat salaries that many foreigners have.

The cost of living should be okay - we are happy living in a small apartment without a car, even here in the USA. Our one major vice is travel, which should be much cheaper over there.

While I don't like the taste of beer, I do like the Belgian attitude towards it - each one deserving its own glass, some of them perfected by monks over millennia, only identifiable by the colour of the bottle cap. I am, however, very fond of fries, waffles, and chocolate.

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Originally posted by lagatta:
Pupils in French-language schools in Québec have to learn English as a second language, no two ways about that.

Some schools teach a third language as well.

So I don't get your point.

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French schools in Quebec have for decades taught English so badly, and so late, and so grudgingly, that many parents would rather try their luck in so-called (mostly subsidized) private schools. I'm a tutor, and I deal with these kids (franco, anglo and allo) every working day.

Finally, from what I recall, Charest decided to roll back English-language instruction in French schools, under parental pressure, from Grade 4 to Grade 1. But to what extent? As much as English schools teach kids in French? Mais non ...

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Originally posted by lagatta:
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I love Montréal except for the winters (I hate winter) but it does annoy me that there is nowhere I really want to go from here without taking a plane across the Atlantic.

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Some allophone kids do wind up speaking three languages badly, but that is the same if they go to Anglophone schools - in my area, the pupils there would have been mostly Italian, Greek or Portuguese.

I certainly agree that the quality of ESL and FSL teaching should be improved, but it does vary greatly by school. Doubt if it is much of a problem if they are in Outremont, even at a public school.

But this is about where to live - schools are just one aspect of it.

I do think you are far better of sending progeny to public schools where they will learn the local language and interact with your neighbours' children. I really have a thing against "expats" who live in a bubble.

And if your vice is travel, then definitely Brussels.

Montréal is one of the few North American cities where you can live happily carfree, depending on where you choose to live. Do go fairly central, or near a métro at least, and make sure you are close to good shopping etc.

But it is so hard to access anywhere near the range of travel destinations you can from Brussels. With the high-speed Thalys train, you are in Paris in an hour, Amsterdam in a couple (the train lines aren't as modern and there are more stops, if that seems counter-intuitive, given how close Brussels and Amsterdam are.

I don't much care for beer either. Belgium is beer country, but if you like wine it is much cheaper in Belgium than anywhere in Canada.

I'm not fond of sweets but I love strong, dark coffee, and you can find that in either place. And while North American crappy food (and bread) does exist in Montréal, there is absolutely no reason to have to eat it, as quality foods are readily available, and there are a lot of modestly-priced decent restaurants.

Moreover, I don't drive, and many places here are accessible only by car.

And I won't set foot in the US.

Unless you thought I was a jet-setter? No such money, and it wouldn't be envrionmentally responsible. But I would like to be able to be somewhere from where I could travel to many different countries by train.

[ 16 September 2008: Message edited by: lagatta ]

If I could speak French fluently, I would want to live in Montreal. It's a great city for walking, and the Mile End and Plateau neighbourhoods seem like wonderful places to live.

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Originally posted by Banjo:
If I could speak French fluently, I would want to live in Montreal. It's a great city for walking, and the Mile End and Plateau neighbourhoods seem like wonderful places to live.
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There's the urban legend that you *have to* speak French (or rather, Quebecois) fluently to live in Montreal. I'm never refused service in English, although some will speak Quebecois in return to me. I've been here more than 5 years, car-free to boot, though I can't recommend that on the West Island. (That's another urban legend: public transit service on the West Island.)

Sidebar: My favorite newspaper (is not the) Journal de Montreal, today published an "expose" from their undercover reporter about how a unilingual franco can easily get hired on the West Island. "Mon dieu, ca parle francais ici," one client exclaimed. Who's prejudiced now?

Also, enough with the Plateau! Viva Ville Saint-Laurent a.k.a. Little NDG. Cheap housing, multiculti mix, good libraries, abundant houses of worship ...

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Originally posted by lagatta:
I know several now adult children of anglophone friends who, being progressives, sent their kids to Franchophone schools. None speak or write broken English, as their parents spoke if fluently and they had access to books and magazines in English in the home, not to mention radio and TV.

Some allophone kids do wind up speaking three languages badly, but that is the same if they go to Anglophone schools - in my area, the pupils there would have been mostly Italian, Greek or Portuguese.

I certainly agree that the quality of ESL and FSL teaching should be improved, but it does vary greatly by school. Doubt if it is much of a problem if they are in Outremont, even at a public school.

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Progressive? Nice shibboleth there. I must be a regressive, then.

My anglo stepdaughter goes to English public school, and flourishes in both English and French. But her highly linguistically gifted mother was almost assimilated by French primary school. That's a gamble I wouldn't be willing to take: social engineering at your kids' expense.

Naturally, I prefer my neighbourhood. But although the Plateau is overhyped, I still wouldn't mind living down there if I could afford it, simply because it is so central.

Though food shopping is better and cheaper around here, not only the market and immediate area but also nearby Parc-Extension.

Well, actually I do think you are rather regressive on this issue. My friends thought Québec should be French-speaking above all and that kids who were to grow up here should acquire native fluency.

So do I, while I agree with the acquired rights of anglophone Quebecers.

"Social-engineering" is a rightwing buzzword by the way. I'm not accusing you of being rightwing (except for the occasional burst of angryphobic ... regression), but it is a buzzword used against affirmative action for women and "visible minorities", public daycare etc.

And I certainly agree that education is important. You don't think one can get a decent education in Brussels or Montréal? Huh?

[ 16 September 2008: Message edited by: lagatta ]

The temptation of being able to take a train to a new region every weekend is too great. I would love to incorporate exploration into our everyday life, rather than having it be an occasional escape from it. And the carbon offsets would be minimal.

I think generally the food is better in Montréal than in Brussels, especially the vegetarian options. (Though we didn't discover the joy of pairing frites with tartare sauce until we visited Belgium. ) But both places will be free of the high-fructose-laden rubbish they serve in the USA, which will be a refreshing change.

Although Canada does rank higher than Belgium in terms of quality of education, both have excellent systems that are accessible to all, again especially compared to the disastrous mess here in the USA.

So I think that we will take the scarier option, will jump into the unknown and move to Brussels. We will try to burst the expat bubble and eventually become citizens of Belgium.

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Originally posted by lagatta:
What on earth is wrong with being "assimilated" into French (Québécois is not a language, simply a dialect of French, among many others - Belgians also speak a distinctive form of French) in Québec.

Well, actually I do think you are rather regressive on this issue. My friends thought Québec should be French-speaking above all and that kids who were to grow up here should acquire native fluency.

So do I, while I agree with the acquired rights of anglophone Quebecers.

"Social-engineering" is a rightwing buzzword by the way. I'm not accusing you of being rightwing (except for the occasional burst of angryphobic ... regression), but it is a buzzword used against affirmative action for women and "visible minorities", public daycare etc.

And I certainly agree that education is important. You don't think one can get a decent education in Brussels or Montréal? Huh?

[ 16 September 2008: Message edited by: lagatta ]

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Of course, a good education can be acquired almost anywhere in the over-developed world. I never said otherwise. I was questioning how important a sound educational basis in one's mother tongue is.

I'm not unilingual, just assertive. I ask for on service in English because that is part of who I am. I use French if necessary, but I don't necessarily use French (or even Quebecois). Believe it or not, I acquired fluency in Standard French, in high school, in Ontario. I even won an award for it, but I'm not bragging, since I let it rust since then. My Quebec friends don't believe me, since I now speak French like a Spanish cow. That may be from becoming fluent in Salvadoran. But this is not about me. Not everyone has my ability, such as it is, and i won't make social policy on such unevenly distributed traits.

"Social engineering" means what it means in context, insofar as one defends it. Noam Chomsky contextualized "political correctness" by claiming that it's really right wingers who are aiming for thought conformity. Or is he a conservative fifth columnist now?

Lagatta, you yourself defended me in Babble once against being francophobic. Neither am I an angryphone, just a committed federalist. I just think, like the Trotskyists and anarchists, so-called angryphones ask a lot of good questions.

How convenient that as an anglophone Canadian from Quebec, I am "allowed" to send my stepdaughter to English school. It would be a pity if an anglophone family immigrated to Quebec thinking they had a reasonable expectation of English education, this being Canada after all.

Quebecois may not be a language, but:

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Interintelligibility of formally and informally spoken Quebec French with Metropolitan French is a matter of heated debates between linguists. If a comparison can be made, the differences between both dialects are probably larger than those between American and British English, and than those between Brazilian Portuguese and that of Portugal, and than those between Latin American Spanish and European Spanish, but less than those differences between standard German and Swiss German.

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If Quebecois is so sophisticated, why do they have to dub "Tetes a claques" into Standard French? And provide subtitles? And there are a few so-called sovereignists who see things like I do. Pierre Bourgault leaps to mind.

Acculturation yes. Assimilation, no. My family has experienced both. We've been in Canada 150 years now. My father's first language was similar to Pennsylvania Dutch, but the Anglo Canadians he lived among took care of that anomaly after the war. You think I have any love lost for the colonialists?

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Originally posted by lagatta:
Pupils in French-language schools in Québec have to learn English as a second language, no two ways about that.

Some schools teach a third language as well.

So I don't get your point. Yes, Parizeau speaks beautiful English.

[ 16 September 2008: Message edited by: lagatta ]

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He should; he has a degree from the London School of Economics.

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Educational freedom? You mean I can't move to Italy and demand that my children learn Mandarin?

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That's kind of odd - equating not knowing something, in this case a language, with "freedom."

And you are so close by train to a variety of countries and cultures.

I don't know Brussels extremely well - I have been there a few times, but never for long, and sometimes I was busy at conferences. I know both Paris and Amsterdam a lot better.

It is an odd city, not as harmonious as either Paris or Amsterdam, but there are some very beautiful parts, and it has a certain charm of its own.

It is a lot hillier than you would expect from it being located in the "Low Countries". Not mountainous of course, but there are some climbs that are a hard slog on a bicycle.

Yes, the winters are grey and rainy, but that is also true of Amsterdam, and people find it a charming place. At least they almost never get -30. (Rare in Montréal, but we do often get a deep chill like that for a few days). Though I was at the antiwar demo in Brussels just before the beginning of the Iraq war, in February 2003, and it was -10. I was utterly frozen, as I didn't have my warm winter coat (I had a more water-resistant and lighter one) or my boots.

Being from Australia, you might miss the "great outdoors" in Belgium. Like the Netherlands, it seems just about every scrap of the country is used or cultivated somehow, and even the forests and parks have been replanted in carefully-aligned rows (remember that Belgium, between Germany and France, saw a lot of the bloodbath of the First World War).

I do like taking the Kusttram (Coastal Tram) along the Flemish beaches - it is beautiful in a somethat bleak way, and the longest tramline in the world.