The occupation is wrong because it is a denial of Palestinians' human rights. Whether one is a Zionist or not, that has to be recognized. But it also has to be understood that Zionists can come to that position as well. How could it not? Zionism is almost universally subscribed to amongst Israel's Jewish majority, but within that group there are those that do stand against the monstrous policy of occupation.

The Apartheid connection in fact goes deeper than just the current mode of colonization of the occupied territories and past links between Israel and South Africa's white minority regime. The ancestors of the Afrikaaners also came looking for their new Jerusalem in Africa's green and pleasant savannahs. Also the apartheid theory itself contains the seeds of its own resolution, with the promise of a peaceful resolution as in South Africa, rather than some apocalyptic race war.

[ 20 April 2007: Message edited by: ceti ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
FYI: The vast majority of white South Africans who opposed Apartheid were from the Jewish community there. For years the only anti-apartheid MP in the South African Parliament was helen Suzman - who was Jewish. I know some people find this fact inconvenient because it flies in the face of their attempts to pigeon hole Jews as being "rightwing', but there you have it.

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quote:

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Stockholm: FYI: The vast majority of white South Africans who opposed Apartheid were from the Jewish community there.

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The best organized "white" opposition to apartheid was the mostly white South African Communist Party. Membership was punishable by 10 years in jail. The SACP, along with COSATU and, of course the ANC, formed the organizational alliance that defeated the apartheid regime. At the time/shortly after the Berlin Wall came down, the SACP had so much respect from ordinary South Africans that their membership increased by huge numbers, despite the opposite trend in virtually every other CP in capitalist countries in the world.

Genuine opposition to apartheid was criminalized and therefore membership lists, numbers, etc. may be difficult to assess (especially by outsiders).

quote:

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Though Jews accounted for only 2.5% of South Africa's white population and 0.3% of South Africa's total population, many Jews played notable roles in the anti-apartheid movement. For example, when 156 political leaders arrested on December 5, 1956, more than half of the whites arrested were Jewish. They were charged with high treason resulting in the Treason Trial which lasted from 1956-1960. And, all of the whites initially charged in the 1963 Rivonia Trial were Jewish.

Jewish politicians like Helen Suzman attempted to stop the abuse of black political prisoners. Writer Nadine Gordimer helped edit Mandela's speech in his defense at the Rivonia Trial (in 1991, Gordimer donated her Nobel Prize money to the Congress of South African Writers, which was allied with the African National Congress). During the Rivonia Trial, Jewish attorney Arthur Chaskalson was part of Mandela's defense counsel. In that trial, Dennis Goldberg, engineer and leader of the Congress of Democrats, was sentenced to life in prison along with Mandela and other ANC leaders.

In 1979, Chaskalson established the Legal Resources Center, an organization dedicated to the pursuit of justice and human rights in South Africa. Chaskalson challenged the implementation of apartheid laws, provided legal services, and trained paralegal personnel to help blacks. When Mandela came to power he appointed Chaskalson as President of the Constitutional Court of South Africa and later as Chief Justice of South Africa.

Many Jewish anti-apartheid activists were the target of state security force violence: Ruth First was assassinated; Albie Sachs lost an eye and an arm. Rowley Arenstein was exiled for thirty-three years. Abstract painter Arthur Goldreich was arrested as a political prisoner in July 1963 but eventually escaped. Joe Slovo, longtime leader of the South African Communist Party, served on the ANC's National Executive Committee, as did Ray Simons and Raymond Suttner. Ronnie Kasrils was head of intelligence for the ANC's military wing. (Adler 2000)

Jews also played a significant role in providing humanitarian assistance for black communities. Ina Perlman founded "Operation Hunger", an organization that reached two million South African blacks. Influenced by skills learned in Israel, the South African Union of Jewish Women (UJW) developed outreach programs in black townships: they focused on teacher training and pre-school development and even sponsored a few black South African teacher visits to Israel. UJW also created a multiracial youth group and engaged in the Women's National Coalition. The group was the first to import black dolls from the United States so that children might have a choice. (Adler, 2000)

Johannesburg's Oxford Synagogue and Cape Town's Temple Israel assisted the black townships by running nurseries, medical clinics and adult education programs, and by providing legal aid for victims of apartheid laws. (Adler 2000)

Many Jews objected to enlistment in the South African Defence Force and the Border War. Johnathon Handler, chairperson of the UCT branch of South African Union of Jewish Students, was one of a group of 15 conscientious objectors to make public their resistance to war in the townships shortly before the End Conscription Campaign was banned.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
Sorry if it ruins your day.

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We had a strong anti-apartheid movement here in Manitoba and even the NDP joined in by donating the profits from left over South African wine [purchased by previous Conservative administration] to administrative costs and staffing of an office in Winnipeg. I am proud to say that I was a part of that movement and even played somewhat of a leadership role. When Glenn Babb, the then South African Ambassador to Canada, came to Manitoba to visit the Peguis Reserve in a publicity stunt, representatives of the anti-apartheid movement met with Louis Stevenson and the Peguis Council/elders in an unsuccessful attempt to discourage them from inviting the apartheid regime's representative. I should know. I was chosen to sit alongside the Canadian representatives of the ANC.

quote:

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There is, however, lots of evidence that those victimized by South African apartheid are keenly aware to this day of apartheid practices elsewhere

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I was actively involved in the anti-apartheid movement at Carleton University when I was there from 1985-7.

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Many South Africans are beginning to recognize the parallels to what we went through. Ronnie Kasrils and Max Ozinsky, two Jewish heroes of the anti-apartheid struggle, recently published a letter titled "Not in My Name." Signed by several hundred other prominent Jewish South Africans, the letter drew an explicit analogy between apartheid and current Israeli policies. Mark Mathabane and Nelson Mandela have also pointed out the relevance of the South African experience.

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Let's see now, there's so much out there ...

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The state of Israel continues to violate international law through the construction of its wall through Palestinian territory, through its occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip and its denial of Palestinian refugees the right to return to their homes and lands. Israel remains the only country in the UN general assembly with more than one class of citizenship (through the Population Registry Act) where Jews are granted preferential access to land, and water resources, as well as social services.

The United Nations Committee Against Torture has repeatedly condemned Israel for its continued use of torture against Palestinian civilians. In 1997, Amnesty International noted, “Israel is the only country on earth where torture and ill-treatment are legally sanctioned”. Over 9000 Palestinians are currently held as political prisoners by Israel, including 400 Palestinian children. One thousand of these detainees are held without charge or trial; the equivalent of 8000 Canadians held under Security Certificates.

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and on and on and on.

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In Israel, 93% of the land is earmarked for Jewish control and development through state ownership, the Jewish National Fund and the Israeli Lands Authority. In apartheid South Africa, 87% of the land was reserved for whites. The 2002 state budget, for example, allocated around $30 per person of the housing ministry budget to Arab communities compared with $3100 per person in Jewish ones. Over 100,000 Palestinian citizens of Israel are from “unrecognized villages” – residential areas that have existed for hundreds of years but are deliberately refused recognition by the Israeli government. These citizens are denied any basic services such as running water, electricity, proper education and health services, and access roads.

In May 2006, the Israeli Supreme Court effectively banned marriage between Israelis and Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza Strip, a decision that the Israeli daily Haaretz termed “shameful”. Until recently, the Bank of Israel and the state electricity company did not hire anyone who was Arab.

Furthermore, Israel continues to occupy and control the West Bank and Gaza Strip, thus denying millions of Palestinians their civil, religious, and cultural rights through the imposition of military checkpoints, through the destruction of Mosques, churches, and places of worship, the killing of civilians and the targeting of Palestinian political institutions and parties. Palestinians are identified by different colored identity cards and license plates and are forbidden from traveling on certain roads. Movement of Palestinians between towns and villages is controlled by Israeli permits and checkpoints.

These measures should be described as they are: examples of Israeli apartheid. The main thrust of the CUPE Ontario decision is the comparison with South African apartheid. Indeed, the first item of the CUPE resolution is to conduct an “education campaign about the apartheid nature of the Israeli state”.

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quote:

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Israel is not an apartheid state.

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Yes it is. Even some Zionists say so. There are roads in the West Bank that only Jews can use. There is a gigantic wall seperating Jews from non Jews, also in the West Bank. Are these not signs of Apartheid?

[ 20 April 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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There are roads in the West Bank that only Jews can use. There is a gigantic wall seperating Jews from non Jews, also in the West Bank.

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Hyperbole usually diminishes an argument it doesn't enhance it.

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Those separate Israelis from Palestinians. If you are an Arab Israeli you have the same access to those roads as a Jewish Israeli.

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What if your an Isreali Arab who is traveling in the West Bank but has forgotten his or her identity card?

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You will be treated the same way as an Isreali Jew who is traveling in the West Bank but has forgotten his or her identity card? - In other words, you won't be allowed because you cannot prove who you are. People who live in Israel have long been accustomed to never going anywhere without ID since everyday life is full of security checkpoints.

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Of course if there were no terrorism, none of these measures would ever have been necessary and everyone would be one big happy family.

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It Could be argued th it is not the wall keeping Hamas suicide bombers in check but the hudna instituted by Hamas.
P.S. Do you like being a baggage boy for the Zionist right?

[ 20 April 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

quote:

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CUPE: Our stand against Israeli treatment of Palestinians has won us enormous respect worldwide.

Delegates to the 2006 CUPE Ontario convention voted almost unanimously to support the international campaign of boycott, divestment and sanctions against Israel until that
state recognizes the Palestinian right to self-determination. CUPE Ontario’s stance on this issue has won us enormous respect around the world. Among letters of international support, the Congress of South African Trade Unions — an organization representing millions of South African workers that was the backbone
of the anti-apartheid struggle — wrote to CUPE expressing their support and admiration for our resolution.

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Who can forget the stirring words of Willie Mashida, President of COSATU?

quote:

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“We salute the courage and vision of CUPE Ontario’s leadership and members… Your unwavering resolve inspires us, we who lived through decades of apartheid oppression, as it will undoubtedly inspire and endear you to millions of Palestinian and other freedom loving people throughout the world.”

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Caissa: Apartheid is an historical phenomenon which took place in South Africa in a specific time period.

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CUPE: Apartheid means a set of laws and practices that discriminate against particular groups of people because of their race, ethnicity or nationality.

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Can you spot the difference? How about the following ...

LAWS:

quote:

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[South Africa:] Race laws systematically excluded the black majority from the political process, and touched every aspect of social life.

[Israel:] In the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Palestinians are subject to Israeli military law. They are frequently arrested for violating these laws and brought before military courts often described as “Kangaroo Courts”.

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Like apartheid? Check.

Documentation:

quote:

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[South Africa:] The 1950 Population Registration Act required that all South Africans be racially classified into one of three
categories: white, black (African), or coloured (of mixed descent).
• All blacks were required to carry “pass books” containing fingerprints, photo and information on access to nonblack areas.

[Israel:] Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip must carry different coloured ID Cards. Entry and exit from Palestinian ghettoes within the West Bank is impossible without these
cards and permission to travel from the military occupation authorities.
• Palestinian citizens of Israel must carry ID cards that identify them as non-Jewish through an ID number and the way birth dates are recorded.

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Like apartheid? Check.

Land:

quote:

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[South Africa:] 87% of the land was reserved for whites. Non-whites were
permitted access to only 13% of the land.
• The South Africa Natives Land Act, No. 27 of 1913 and the Natives (Urban Areas) Act of 1923 made it illegal for blacks to purchase or lease land from whites except in reserves.

[Israel:] Israel has reserved 93% of the land in Israel for Jewish development through state ownership, the Jewish National Fund and the Israeli Lands Authority.
• Israel has declared most of the lands in the West Bank as “state land.” Another 12% will be annexed to Israel by the new Wall.

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Like apartheid? Well, yes, but the percentages are actually worse. Charming.

Human Rights:

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[South Africa:] The 1953 Public Safety Act and the Criminal Law Amendment Act empowered the government to declare stringent states of emergency and increased penalties for
protesting against or supporting the repeal of a law. The penalties included fi nes, imprisonment and whippings.
• Penalties imposed on political protest, even non-violent protest, were severe. During states of emergency that continued intermittently until 1989, anyone could be detained without a hearing for up to six months. Thousands died in custody, frequently after gruesome acts of torture. Those who were tried were sentenced to death, banished, or imprisoned for life, like Nelson Mandela.

[Israel:] 10,000 Palestinians and 400 children are being held as political prisoners in Israeli prisons and detention centers. In violation of
the Fourth Geneva Convention, Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza Strip are transferred out of the occupied territory into prisons in Israel proper.
• Israel regularly practices torture against prisoners and has been
condemned by UN bodies and human rights organizations such
as Amnesty International.
• Over 1,000 Palestinians are held as ‘administrative detainees,’ without charge or trial. These orders can be renewed indefinitely.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Caissa:

It was quite easy to critique Israeli policy without resorting to missile words like Apartheid.

---

Those who are unable to utter a word of criticism of Islamic theocracy (and the rights violations implicit in their practice) can't provide real illumination; but if it's one-sidedness you want, they're available. More than available!

A less black-and-white analysis is available; it tends toward the idea that the Israeli occupation of the West Bank DOES involve something like apartheid, but that this apartheid cannot seriously be used to describe Israel itself.

An article in the New York Review of Books last month made this point:

quote:

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The Durban usage, labeling Israel an "apartheid state," is relatively easy to dismiss as propaganda. Apartheid, as developed by Afrikaner nationalists in South Africa, was both a doctrine and a huge legal apparatus. It was based on a system of racial classification and elaborated in scores of laws and hundreds of regulations that stripped the black majority of virtually all rights, including the right to enter and remain in "white areas," deemed to be most of the land. Nothing remotely resembling the apartheid doctrine or apparatus can be found within Israel itself.

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The author actually grants substantial validity to the use of the term apartheid as it applies to the West Bank, but he probably finally agrees
with the following:

quote:

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Meron Benvenisti, who has been intrigued by the comparison to South Africa over the years, now calls for a rhetorical cease-fire. The use of the term "apartheid," he wrote back in 2005, has become in Israel a "mark of leftist radicalism," while its denial stands as proof of "Zionist patriotism." Objective comparison or discussion of the validity of any comparison is "nearly impossible." Anyone who goes into the question, Benvenisti wrote, "will be judged by his conclusions." The choice, he said, is between being called an anti-Semite or a fascist. The occupation should be seen in its own harsh light, he concluded, rather than subjected to a comparison.

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The real reason on the insistence on the word "apartheid" by the Communist Party is to allow people to avoid thought: don't look at the details, just condemn "apartheid".

quote:

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quelar: How about "the Palestinian Holocaust" then?

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Of course if there were no terrorism, none of these measures would ever have been necessary and everyone would be one big happy family.

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No, the history is quite clear. If there the state of Israel had not been set up in the horrid way it was, forcefully displacing over a million people, taking everything they had worked for, booting them out of their homes and corralling them into inhuman refugree camps, the would be no terrorism.

In fact, if you put yourself in the shoes of any of those Palestinian victims, what happened to them was clearly an act of terrorism.

quote:

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

This is true even if you are a pasty Azkhenazi Brooklenite?

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quote:

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No, the history is quite clear.

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Jeff H: The real reason on the insistence on the word "apartheid" by the Communist Party is to allow people to avoid thought: don't look at the details, just condemn "apartheid".

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Preventing Palestinians from travelling to/from Gaza from/to the West Bank, controlling movement with police checkpoints at every "border" crossing, breaking up the Palestinian territory into tiny, non-viable villages, cut off from each other and from basic services such as electricity, sewers, water, etc., constructing separate "Israeli only" roads, etc., has been called the Bantustanization of Palestine for its similarity to the polcies of the South African apartheid regime.

Here's something from the linked article:

quote:

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For an effective answer to the charge that Israel is an "apartheid state," see "Apartheid? Israel Is a Democracy in Which Arabs Vote," an article by Benjamin Pogrund, a crusading anti-apartheid journalist from South Africa who now lives in Jerusalem, where he is involved in efforts aimed at recon-ciliation between religious Jews and Muslims. The article first appeared in Focus, a publication of the Helen Suzman Foundation in Johannesburg and now available on the foundation's Web site. Pogrund also decries the application of the term to the occupation on the West Bank, calling it "a lazy label."

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[ 20 April 2007: Message edited by: jeff house ]

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Thank you for exposing your anti-semitic racism...

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No anti semitism intended. My point is that if you are a white, American or European Jew you'll probably get special treatment from the occupation authorities. If you are dark skinned (wheather your Jewish or not), you probably won't.

[ 20 April 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 20 April 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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and what if you are a blue eyed blond Muslim who can pass for being a Swede?

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A Mulim who could pass for a Swede will probably get a special treatment too.

[ 20 April 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:

The real reason on the insistence on the word "apartheid" by the Communist Party is to allow people to avoid thought: don't look at the details, just condemn "apartheid".

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19993

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Red baiting and guilt by assocaition again Jeff? Not abnormally creepy for you, I must say.

I had no idea Bishop Desmond Tutu (who is also on record as calling Israel an Apartheid state, along with other well known Communists like Jimmy Carter) was a Communist. All this time I thought he was a Priest. I suppose these are not mutually exculsive, though, as the people in Arana thought when they killed of Romero in El Salvador.

You seem to spend of a lot of time making nebulous "linkages," based on your perception of "like-mindedness" (fellow travellers sic). Does the idea that calling priests "communists" because they believe certain things, say certain things, and defend certain causes put you in the same camp as the Mano Blanco death squads? Does that kind of thinking bother you at all?

Anyone merely has to look at the way you smear people to know that anything you have to say about rights, or Apartheid, or anything at all is some twisted fucking right wing McCarthyite shit.

[ 20 April 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Actually its not clear at all. That is YOUR version of the history of the Middle East others beg to differ. Where you sit depends on where you stand.

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Yep, I've read and heard a bunch of those versions. They usually involve slithering servile apologies, religious fanaticism and and blatant denial of fact, as well as the usual "they deserved it" crap.

quote:

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Originally posted by Max Bialystock:
Why do so many "progressives" deny its existence? Isn't apartheid inexcusable, period?

In my view so-called "progressive Zionists" need to realize it's a contradiction in terms. Sure you may be leftwing on other issues (supporting Kyoto, supporting a higher minimum wage, union right, opposing the war in Iraq, etc.) but when it comes to Israel they actually are departing from the Left position.

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The case of Israel often causes cognitive dissonance in "Progressives", by bringing into conflict the core values of Social justice and anti-colonialism.

Many "Progressives" have spent the last 4 decades boosting for Jewish self-determination or Holocaust promotion, but are distressed by the slow realization that they have been dupes for colonialism.

Over the years, I've seen the pain of slow realization as Progressives shift from the support for Zionism, back to core values of social justice, but the process is glacial, and some are slower to outgrow their "training" than others.

[ 21 April 2007: Message edited by: Legless-Marine ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Caissa:
I'll say it: Israel is not an apartheid state.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
and what if you are a blue eyed blond Muslim who can pass for being a Swede?

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Sounds like a nice slice of ethnic utopianism from 10000 miles away, but the truth is, it ain't gonna happen.

Palestinians don't look Swedish - Ever. Even with lighter coloured hair combined with blue eyes. In downtown Toronto, a fair Palestinian may be able to pull off the ambiguous-ethnicity game for a few minutes, but in Palestine, Dress, company, situation, and language will give them away. Station and background is betrayed by far subtler cues than hair color.

An Israeli soldier, pulling into a Palestinian village in his armoured jeep, isn't going to mistake Haiya for Heidi.

[ 21 April 2007: Message edited by: Legless-Marine ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

Those separate Israelis from Palestinians. If you are an Arab Israeli you have the same access to those roads as a Jewish Israeli. same goes for the Wall. Of course if there were no terrorism, none of these measures would ever have been necessary and everyone would be one big happy family.

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
George Bush is a faschist...in waiting.

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Ummm... Yeah. I've heard he's waiting to turn the US into an industrial war machine, roll back civil rights, and wage war beyond his own borders.

[ 20 April 2007: Message edited by: Legless-Marine ]

quote:

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

This is true even if you are a pasty Azkhenazi Brooklenite?

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Goodness knows there's no lack of those types among the colonial outposts known as "settlements".

quote:

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Many "Progressives" have spent the last 4 decades boosting for Jewish self-determination or Holocaust promotion,

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What exactly is "Holocaust promotion"?? Is it the reverse of Holocaust denial? If so, I expect anyone who calls themself "progressive" would support it.

quote:

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BTW: AS an aside, in the French presidential election, all the major candidates are quite pro-Israel, with one exception. Jean Marie LePen, the neo-fascist who refers to the Holocaust as "a minor detail" - is very anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian. Does that make him "progressive"? Draw what conclusions you wish.

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BTW, malicious guilt-by-association efforts like this don't wash either.

I think you know as well as anyone that it comes down to more than just adopting a superficial label of being pro/anti Israeli/Palestinian.

It comes down to what values of the human condition do you identify with, such as:

--pro/anti equal rights for both

--pro/Anti democratic rights and self-determination

--pro/anti equal right to life, liberty, home and shelter and means of earning a living

--pro/anti discrimination and access based on ethnicity or religion

--pro/anti right to be free of undue search, scrutiny, arrest and detention and other abridgement by state or corporate authority

--pro/anti the right to associate, organize, bargain collectively, speak freely, etc.

If you are pro to all of these and similar other measures, then it's pretty damn difficult to support the Israeli/Palestinian situation as it is today (or has been for the last 60 years).

There is nothing wrong with educating people about the Holocaust, and to imply that doing so some how links you to to the Zionist right is incredibly stupid.

[ 21 April 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 21 April 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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It comes down to what values of the human condition do you identify with, such as:

--pro/anti equal rights for both

--pro/Anti democratic rights and self-determination

--pro/anti equal right to life, liberty, home and shelter and means of earning a living

--pro/anti discrimination and access based on ethnicity or religion

--pro/anti right to be free of undue search, scrutiny, arrest and detention and other abridgement by state or corporate authority

--pro/anti the right to associate, organize, bargain collectively, speak freely, etc.

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quote:

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
Legless Marine:
Christ almighty! I can understand being opposed to the occupation and Apartheid in Isreal proper but to be so to talk about "holocaust promotion" the way you did really does hint at anti semitism.

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Please do us the courtesy of taking the time to construct a cogent rebuttal, instead of lazily hurling perjoratives.

quote:

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

There is nothing wrong with educating people about the Holocaust, and to imply that doing so some how links you to to the Zionist right is incredibly stupid.

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And yet again, you deliberately misinterpret and misrepresent my words. Please stop doing that.

[ 21 April 2007: Message edited by: Legless-Marine ]

quote:

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
Legless Marine:
Christ almighty! I can understand being opposed to the occupation and Apartheid in Isreal proper but to be so to talk about "holocaust promotion" the way you did really does hint at anti semitism.

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It seemed to me that LM was saying was more in line with Norman Finkelstein's thesis about the Holocaust Industry. There is nothing antisemitic about it.

The book is called THE HOLOCAUST INDUSTRY: REFLECTIONS ON THE EXPLOITATION OF JEWISH SUFFERING

[ 21 April 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

But perhaps you will be interested in this: "Don't they have the same thoughts?"

[ 21 April 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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The book is called THE HOLOCAUST INDUSTRY: REFLECTIONS ON THE EXPLOITATION OF JEWISH SUFFERING

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Maybe he can write a sequel called:

quote:

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and there is more of all these things on the pro-side in Israel than there are in any Arab countries.

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THE NAQBA INDUSTRY: REFLECTIONS ON THE EXPLOITATION OF PALESTINIAN SUFFERING

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In order for a book like that to be written, people would have to acknowledge that the Naqba actually happened. A large porportion of North Americans and Europeans(the two groups that could force the Isreali government to end the occupation and its apartheid policies in Isreal proper) don't, simply because they no bugger all about Middle Eastern history in general.

[ 21 April 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 21 April 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
If you like.

But perhaps you will be interested in this: "Don't they have the same thoughts?"

[ 21 April 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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[ 21 April 2007: Message edited by: ohara ]

quote:

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And yet again, you deliberately misinterpret and misrepresent my words. Please stop doing that.

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OK, I'm sorry. I think however that it's better for opponents of Isreal to use words like abuse and exploit, when describing Isreal's relationship to the holocaust, rather then promote. The Isreali government dosen't promote the holocaust(look kids! genocide is fun!) they portray it as a tragedy.

[ 21 April 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 21 April 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 21 April 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

quote:

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In order for a book like that to be written, people would have to acknowledge that the Naqba actually happened.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

It's a historical fact that the Arabs suffered a humiliating defeat in the 1948 war - they call it the Naqba while Israelis call it the War of Independence. No one denies it happened.

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From what I understand, the Naqba was the expulsion of the Palistinians from Palistine in 1948. Many people deny that it happened.

[ 21 April 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 21 April 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

It's a historical fact that the Arabs suffered a humiliating defeat in the 1948 war - they call it the Naqba while Israelis call it the War of Independence. No one denies it happened.

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[ 21 April 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
You can't blame the Arabs for being sore losers about what happened in 1948. Here you had the armies of Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan and Syria, along with regiments from Iraq and Saudi Arabia (countries with a combined population of about 100 million) against a ragtag bunch sandal wearing Kibbutzniks and Holocaust survivors in Israel (population about 500,000).

It was a classic David and Goliath story and the Israelis won despite extraordinary odds against them. I don't blame the Arabs for feeling humiliated. If I were a 6'6", 280 lb. muscle bound bully, and I got beaten up by a girl guide with a pea-shooter I'd be embarrassed too.

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You should be embarassed for being a Zionist shill and telling lies.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:

Yes, and Jews were "defeated" in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. get a life.

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The "Jews" starved, no real arms, dysentry and disease running rampant were surrounded by the most powerful and well armed army in Europe if not the world. That they held out for weeks befuddling the Nazis at every tuen and killing scores is by all decent people a victory of the highest order.

In 1948 it was truly an almost repeat with the "Jews" having no real army, no tanks, hardly trained with the remenants of those who survived the Nazi Holocaust mamnged to thwart the combined armies of the largest Middle Eastern nations of the time. Again by all accounts an honourable victory in many ways miraculous.

The sadness is that many "Palestinians" were in fact left homeless many fooled by Arab governments that insisted they leave in preperation of a final victory where the "Jews" will be driven into the sea. And yes Israeli authorities also drove many off as well. Terrible things happen in war.

quote:

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
Look whose talking. You parrot the Jean Marie LePen line that the Holocaust was an insignificant detail in World War Two.

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I challenge you to show where I said that.

quote:

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Originally posted by ohara:

In 1948 it was truly an almost repeat with the "Jews" having no real army, no tanks, hardly trained with the remenants of those who survived the Nazi Holocaust mamnged to thwart the combined armies of the largest Middle Eastern nations of the time. Again by all accounts an honourable victory in many ways miraculous.

The sadness is that many "Palestinians" were in fact left homeless many fooled by Arab governments that insisted they leave in preperation of a final victory where the "Jews" will be driven into the sea. And yes Israeli authorities also drove many off as well. Terrible things happen in war.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
What do you call it when you try to minimize and disparage any memory of the Holocaust by calling it "Holocaust promotion"?

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It's not my concern what you call it.

I'm still waiting for you to prove your claim that I have " parrot[ed] the Jean Marie LePen line that the Holocaust was an insignificant detail in World War Two. "

Your lies are a violation of this site's policy: "You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this discussion board to post any material that is knowingly false and/or defamatory"

[ 21 April 2007: Message edited by: Legless-Marine ]

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Originally posted by ohara:
Wow Cueball I really thought you had an understanding of hoistory. Sad to say you dont.

The "Jews" starved, no real arms, dysentry and disease running rampant were surrounded by the most powerful and well armed army in Europe if not the world. That they held out for weeks befuddling the Nazis at every tuen and killing scores is by all decent people a victory of the highest order.

In 1948 it was truly an almost repeat with the "Jews" having no real army, no tanks, hardly trained with the remenants of those who survived the Nazi Holocaust mamnged to thwart the combined armies of the largest Middle Eastern nations of the time. Again by all accounts an honourable victory in many ways miraculous.

The sadness is that many "Palestinians" were in fact left homeless many fooled by Arab governments that insisted they leave in preperation of a final victory where the "Jews" will be driven into the sea. And yes Israeli authorities also drove many off as well. Terrible things happen in war.

Now we have to find a way to make it right. That is why a 2 state solution is the only choice.

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There was no organized Arab campaign to move the Arabs out and make way for the armies. None. But there was a calculated and organized expulsion of Arabs carried out by the Israeli side.

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against a ragtag bunch sandal wearing Kibbutzniks and Holocaust survivors in Israel (population about 500,000).

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

The Irgun were a bunch of sandal wearing Kibbutzniks?

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I know that the David an Goliath story makes for EXITING propoganda for children

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the Rodney King video helped to excise a streak of racism from the LA PD.

some good videos of the Israeli's practicing apartheid policies would be very helpful.

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Originally posted by Abdul_Maria:
i think the Video Camera would be a very useful tool, to document the imposition by the Israelis on the Palestinians, of conditions that are like German concentration camps - except in the desert.

the Rodney King video helped to excise a streak of racism from the LA PD.

some good videos of the Israeli's practicing apartheid policies would be very helpful.

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It's been done 10,000 times. How much footage is needed to make the world care about the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians?

[ 22 April 2007: Message edited by: Legless-Marine ]

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
You can't blame the Arabs for being sore losers about what happened in 1948. Here you had the armies of Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan and Syria, along with regiments from Iraq and Saudi Arabia (countries with a combined population of about 100 million) against a ragtag bunch sandal wearing Kibbutzniks and Holocaust survivors in Israel (population about 500,000).

It was a classic David and Goliath story and the Israelis won despite extraordinary odds against them. I don't blame the Arabs for feeling humiliated. If I were a 6'6", 280 lb. muscle bound bully, and I got beaten up by a girl guide with a pea-shooter I'd be embarrassed too.

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I take it you and ohara are the unofficial Zionist apologists on babble. Do you find it contradictory to be an apologist for Israeli atrocities and a "progressive" at the same time? Why the apologetics?

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but when it comes to Israel they actually are departing from the Left position.

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Who is in charge of Passing Down the "left position", by the way?

And just think! Someone "actually departing" from the Authoritatively Determined Left Position! My God, these leftists don't take orders! How reactionary of them.

[ 24 April 2007: Message edited by: jeff house ]

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It was a classic David and Goliath story and the Israelis won despite extraordinary odds against them. I don't blame the Arabs for feeling humiliated. If I were a 6'6", 280 lb. muscle bound bully, and I got beaten up by a girl guide with a pea-shooter I'd be embarrassed too.

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Sure thing! And I guess the huge support and backing they had from the UK --well...that was what? A small gesture from the sweet old lady down the street.

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I guess being anti-Israel must be the "progressive" position since in Europe the most outspoken anti-Israel personalities are neo-fascists like Jean-Marie LePen and Jorg Haider.

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And again you continue with this malicious guilt-by-association against anyone who, quite rightly, opposes the injustices of the Israeli government against Palestinian Arabs, even though this has been proven irrelevant.

This alone shows you have not much legitimate grounds for your position as all you can do is slander and defame.

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It's a historical fact that the Arabs suffered a humiliating defeat in the 1948 war - they call it the Naqba while Israelis call it the War of Independence. No one denies it happened.

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You obviously seem to take great pleasure in boasting and dismissing the horrors and suffering, as well as mass murder, of Palestinian Arabs, especially those in the occupied zones. You clearly have no respect for those people and see them as less deserving of freedom and equality than Israelis and even deserving of the brutality that’s leveled against them.

That’s exactly the same Nazi attitude I addressed in this thread and this thread .

Subjective terms like “left” or “progressive” have nothing to do with this. What you and your fellow apologists for the Israeli government are leading me more and more to the conclusion that a Zionist is little more than the Israeli government’s response to a Nazi: similar philosophy and behaviour; just a different ethnic target.

And filth like you actually got the audacity to commemorate the dead of the Holocaust and celebrate the resistance efforts of courageous Jewish people against the Nazi regime, while in the next breath turn around and support and even celebrate the horrors imposed on people by the Israeli regime—and then say you support the NDP!

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
I guess being anti-Israel must be the "progressive" position since in Europe the most outspoken anti-Israel personalities are neo-fascists like Jean-Marie LePen and Jorg Haider.

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It's one thing to do guilt-by-association and have it be irrelevant, it's another thing to lie. Jorg Haider has hardly been heard from in years and as a simple perusal of media sources shows, has had next to no press on the issue of Israel.

It's no mystery that your long standing relationship with certain members of Rabble's hierarchy has prevented you being censured or otherwise punished for trolling, lies, and other bullshit. What you have done is no different than falsely playing the "antisemite" card which is prohibited by the ME Forum rules. But you will do so happily.

[ 25 April 2007: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

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Originally posted by Cueball:
It seemed to me that LM was saying was more in line with Norman Finkelstein's thesis about the Holocaust Industry. There is nothing antisemitic about it.

The book is called THE HOLOCAUST INDUSTRY: REFLECTIONS ON THE EXPLOITATION OF JEWISH SUFFERING

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Seems you were answered way upthread, ohara.

But I agree with you - I find that kind of rhetoric on Legless-Marine's part to be inflammatory and unnecessary.

[ 25 April 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Originally posted by jeff house:
Is there a book about the exploitation of Palestinian suffering?

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Originally posted by EriKtheHalfaRed:
There's been lots written about the suffering of the Palestinians, but funnily enough I can't think of a single book devoted to that alone. Must be some that someone here knows of.

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