So, since 1977, when the first person was executed following a US Supreme Court decision in the early 1970s that capital punishment was constitutionally permitted, China has almost certainly executed over 100,000 people.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sven:
"Based on public reports available, Amnesty International estimated that at least 3,400 people were executed in China in 2004, but the true figures were believed to be much higher." See the report here.

So, since 1977, when the first person was executed following a US Supreme Court decision in the early 1970s that capital punishment was constitutionally permitted, China has almost certainly executed over 100,000 people.

What should Canadians do? Urge the government to prohibit any further trade with China until capital punishment is stopped in China?

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
What the hell has trade got to do with capital punishment? Since when do we refuse to trade with countries that have repugnant penal systems? And since when does cutting off trade change those repugnant systems?

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quote:

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Since when do we refuse to trade with countries that have repugnant penal systems? And since when does cutting off trade change those repugnant systems?

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Maybe it's worth a shot.

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Originally posted by Sven:
My question is: What should Canadians do, if anything, in response to those numbers?

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
It's not as if our trading relations with China (or any other country) are completely altruistic activities done for the sole benefit of the other party. Canada benefits enormously from foreign trade and investment. Are we willing to accept the economic consequences of such a boycott strategy?

And does China crave our trade so badly that they'd be willing to alter their domestic policies in order to keep us happy? I doubt it.

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If you want to troll Beijing's friends, try www.liberalunderground.ca

There are only two types of self-described leftists who support Beijing:

1. Authoritarian prats.
2. Corrupt pieces of shit who in know way hold progressive values.

[ 02 December 2005: Message edited by: Ghost of the Navigator ]

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Originally posted by Ghost of the Navigator:
Why do right-wing trolls always assume that people on this site are pro-Beijing?

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First of all, Ghost, I'm not sure right-wing trolls oppose capital punishment (I do...under all circumstances).

Second, I didn't say that anyone, much less all people, on this site are pro-Beijing. But, the relentless attacks on USA practices and the near silence about Beijing's practices (which are demonstrably far worse) seems odd, no?

Edited to Add: It's as though the hypocrite (the USA) is deemed to be the worst of the two sinners, even though China kills over 100 times as many people as the USA. Or, to put it another way, hypocrisy itself is a greater crime than a state-sanctioned murder rate that is 100 times greater than the hypocrite's state-sanctioned murder rate.

[ 02 December 2005: Message edited by: Sven ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Sven:
Edited to Add: It's as though the hypocrite (the USA) is deemed to be the worst of the two sinners, even though China kills over 100 times as many people as the USA. Or, to put it another way, hypocrisy itself is a greater crime than a state-sanctioned murder rate that is 100 times greater than the hypocrite's state-sanctioned murder rate.

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Originally posted by Aristotleded24:

At least China has been upfront about its blatant disregard for human rights.

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That’s my point. The criticism about the USA is more about hypocrisy or not being “up front” rather than the actual killing. If the principal concern was the killings, more postings would focus at least as much “ink” on China as on the USA (arguably more).

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Originally posted by ronb:
China's human rights record is apalling. So is the US's. What's your point? Canadians shouldn't criticise the US's apalling record without first pausing to codemn China's? That's just silly. China is neither our neighbour nor our major trading partner. Its cultural impact on us is non-existant compared to the US's.

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Not at all. But, in relative terms, how do you explain the virtually exclusive concern about the USA’s policy when China’s is demonstrably far, far worse?

To justify the fact that there is a virtual absence of criticism of China (relative to the criticism of the USA) because (1) China is not your neighbor and (2) China is not your major trading partner strikes me as a very provincial view of the world.

Edited to Add: This reminds me of the hue and cry and the gnashing of teeth about Katrina and the 1,000 dead but when 11,000 died of heat in France a couple of years ago (because most people there can’t afford A/C), there was nary a peep about that (zero criticism of the government). An unbiased third-party observer looking at the overwhelming flow of negative comments about the USA could be excused if she thought there was a bit of anti-American bias reflected in the weight of negative comments being thrown towards America versus virtually any other country on the planet. And, that’s a shame because America and Canada (despite what many Canadians may believe) are a hell of a lot more alike than Canada is with most other countries.

[ 02 December 2005: Message edited by: Sven ]

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Originally posted by Sven:
But, in relative terms, how do you explain the virtually exclusive concern about the USA’s policy when China’s is demonstrably far, far worse?

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1. The USA is held up in most of our information sources as a force for good in the world. Many (probably most) Americans understand it that way axiomatically, and so do many Canadians. When America falls short, we notice more. No one outside the People's Republic of China is holding up China as a moral beacon. (well, almost no one since the death of Hardial Bains.)

2. We are exposed msotly in this country to the world's most insular and self-centred media, that of the United States. We know more about America than we do abuot ourselves. China, that's upstate somewhere isn't it?

3. US capacity for good or ill is global. China, not yet. We live in an age of empire, so the imperial power gets more attention. Especially so when it does so much overseas that is deplorable. China's routine and massive violations of every standard of human rights take place mostly domestically, and many leftists have reacted to empire by accepting the principle of antional sovereignty as absolute.

4. 99.9% of the people on babble agree: China is a vicious dictatorship. Where's the argument in that?

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Originally posted by swallow:
1. The USA is held up in most of our information sources as a force for good in the world. Many (probably most) Americans understand it that way axiomatically, and so do many Canadians. When America falls short, we notice more. No one outside the People's Republic of China is holding up China as a moral beacon. (well, almost no one since the death of Hardial Bains.)

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Hence my observation: To many Canadians, it is apparently a worse sin to be a hypocrite than it is to be a mass-murderer on a scale that exceeds that of the USA by 100x.

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Originally posted by swallow:
2. We are exposed msotly in this country to the world's most insular and self-centred media, that of the United States. We know more about America than we do abuot ourselves. China, that's upstate somewhere isn't it?

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Do you really think that’s true (that Canadians know more about America than themselves)? Wow.

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Originally posted by swallow:
3. US capacity for good or ill is global. China, not yet. We live in an age of empire, so the imperial power gets more attention. Especially so when it does so much overseas that is deplorable. China's routine and massive violations of every standard of human rights take place mostly domestically, and many leftists have reacted to empire by accepting the principle of antional sovereignty as absolute.

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But, in this case, we’re talking about a purely domestic issue: Capital punishment in the USA and in China.

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Originally posted by swallow:
4. 99.9% of the people on babble agree: China is a vicious dictatorship. Where's the argument in that?

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I agree with that.

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Originally posted by swallow:
5. Like the US left, the Canadian left is obsessed with the USA. That much is true.

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That would seem to be the case.

[ 02 December 2005: Message edited by: Sven ]

Aside from that, China has done a good job censoring the internet within its borders. (Go there, do a google search about Tibet, and tell me what you come up with.) That certainly isn't something I want to see China export. And while the US Empire is in a state of decline, I certainly don't want to see China merely take the place that the US currently occupies.

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This reminds me of the hue and cry and the gnashing of teeth about Katrina and the 1,000 dead but when 11,000 died of heat in France a couple of years ago (because most people there can’t afford A/C), there was nary a peep about that (zero criticism of the government). An unbiased third-party observer looking at the overwhelming flow of negative comments about the USA could be excused if she thought there was a bit of anti-American bias reflected in the weight of negative comments being thrown towards America versus virtually any other country on the planet.

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In New Orleans, all serious research showed that the levees protecting the city from Lake Pontchatrain had to be repaired, and topped up.

So, George Bush cut those funds from the budget. Instead he gave a big tax break to his corporate backers.

Nothing remotedly similar happened in France.

Face it: George Bush is a disastrous President. He failed to stop 9-11, even though he had a report in his hands saying it was going to happen. He failed to move his butt to help New Orleans, either. His torture policies and illegal invasion of Iraq would justify a war crimes trial.

I have no difficulty WHATSOEVER in agreeing that the US has a more enlightened policy, and better trial procedure, than does China, or North Korea.

But we in Canada have a pro-US party, the Reformatories, who modelled themselves on Bush and his policies.

If we are critical of Bush and his policies, we limit their appeal for other Canadians.

We don't have a party here which threatens to bring the policies of Kim Il Jung to this country; those policies are so far off the map that they do not present a danger to us.

But the Reformatories thought Canada should send its soldiers into the Iraqi hornets' nest to get rid of the WMD Saddam supposedly had. And they ape Repuglican policies on tax cuts for the wealthy, on private medicare and many other areas.

But that only means what it says. Talking about China's brutality is not likely to affect it. Talking about US hypocrisy might (they vote, remember). Of course China's slaughter is more important, but it doesn't follow that we should talk about it more.

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Just one example of how Bush didn't cause the Katrina disaster.

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I can't remember how new you are. This "Nagin didn't use the schoolbuses and therefore caused Katrina" trope was thoroughly dicredited here on babble about a day after it surfaced. Thanks but no thanks. You're in an actual "no spin zone" here.

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Hence my observation: To many Canadians, it is apparently a worse sin to be a hypocrite than it is to be a mass-murderer on a scale that exceeds that of the USA by 100x.

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Originally posted by No Yards:
Yes, I saw an interview with Robert Fisk this weekend on CBC ... he mentioned that in one hospital he visited in Baghdad he was allowed to see the files that the USA military had told the hospital they were never allowed to show to any reporters ... the files showed that for one month, in this single hospital in a single city that there were 1100 deaths due to violence (not old age, or sickness, or accidents.)

But, since this is probably China's fault, I guess I have to fully support all these violent deaths.

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Originally posted by Sven:

Is this not a discussion about capital punishment?

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According to the title of this thread it was about capital punishment in China ... but that was just a trick to discuss capital punishment in the USA and to try and justify it based on China's record being worst ... so I guess I am as guilty as you in that respect.

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Is this not a discussion about capital punishment?

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For some reason, you decided to turn it into a thread about mass murder. I guess when China executes its citizens that is mass murder, but when the US does so it is, what, enlightened jurisprudence?

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Originally posted by No Yards:
According to the title of this thread it was about capital punishment in China ... but that was just a trick to discuss capital punishment in the USA and to try and justify it based on China's record being worst ... so I guess I am as guilty as you in that respect.

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I’m trying to “justify” capital punishment in the USA? I have said repeatedly that I am not in favor of capital punishment. Period. Why would I be attempting to “justify” it??

The point of the discussion was not to “justify” capital punishment in either the USA or China (or anywhere else, for that matter). Instead, the purpose was to contrast the intense (and relentless) critique of the USA’s capital punishment system when China’s system is 100x worse yet there is, essentially, dead silence on babble (certainly in relative terms) regarding China’s capital punishment system.

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Originally posted by No Yards:
Which leads me back to my original question ... why are you here complaining about a few Canadian *opinions* when there are USian *actions* to be addressed ... you know, that "sauce for the goose" rule where if we are hypocrites for ignoring China to attack the USA, then you must be even more guilty for ignoring the USA to attack the *opinion* of a few Canadians.

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Originally posted by Papal Bull:
So, by your assumption of our logic Sven you should just leave the board?

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China: 1,306,313,812 = 1 state-sanctioned murder per 13,063
U.S.: 295,734,134 = 1 state-sanctioned murder per 295,734

(Estimated population figures provided by your friendly neighbourhood CIA. State-sanctioned deaths do not count those resulting from territorial invasions and occupations, family policies or health care systems.)[/sarcasm]

Jeff House, many thanks for such an amazing post, though I don't know what good it'll do. Doesn't seem to have sunk in to the skull of its target.

[ 05 December 2005: Message edited by: writer ]

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Originally posted by robbie_dee:
I don't understand this concept of a finite amount of "outrage" in the world, or among babblers, that must somehow be allocated in a zero-sum game between incidents of injustice in the US, China, or elswhere.

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Who has said there is a finite amount of outrage in the world? From what posting can you logically infer that?

My point is quite the opposite: I would like to see an increase in the outrage about China’s capital punishment practices without a diminution of outrage regarding USA capital punishment practices. The concern of many babblers about the USA’s capital punishment practices is disproportionate to concern about China’s capital punishment practices.

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Originally posted by robbie_dee:
I think its possible to oppose human rights violations everywhere, indeed, I think that is the consistent position that most babblers take. I think that most, if not all babblers are very concerned about the issues you raise in China.

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That may very well be true. But, unfortunately, it’s not reflected in the postings.

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Originally posted by robbie_dee:
Furthermore, Sven, since you are the one who started this thread, I am would be eager to hear your suggestions about what we should do about it?

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Perhaps the same thing you do with regard to the USA’s capital punishment system.

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Originally posted by No Yards:
Which leads me back to my original question ... why are you here complaining about a few Canadian *opinions* when there are USian *actions* to be addressed ... you know, that "sauce for the goose" rule where if we are hypocrites for ignoring China to attack the USA, then you must be even more guilty for ignoring the USA to attack the *opinion* of a few Canadians.

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Originally posted by Sven:

If I understand you correctly, No Yards, you’re saying I shouldn’t be concerned about the opinions of Canadians until the USA has resolved all of its issues (which will be never)? If that’s the case, look in the mirror. I’ll bet 10-20% of the posts on babble are about the USA (either directly or otherwise). And, to apply your logic, that would mean Canadians should stop discussing the USA until all Canadian problems are fixed (which will also be never).

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No you don't understand the point I was making at all ... but you still tried to make it against babblers all the same.

Read your own words very carefully "you’re saying I shouldn’t be concerned about the opinions of Canadians until the USA has resolved all of its issues (which will be never)" Now how are you being any different with your demand not to be so concerned about the USA while China is so much worst. Your words could be just as easily taken as telling us not to worry about the USA until China has a perfect record, but you seem to believe that your comments should not be taken in such a black or white terms, while my comments can only be viewed in those same black or white terms.

Most of us have weighted the likelihood of making any affect on the issue, and have come to the conclusion that as hard as it might be, the USA is the target that we can most likely affect ... then if the USA gives up on capital punishment, China might actually be a slightly easier road to travel. Of course China's capital punishment policies are dreadful, and if anyone here had a chance to speak up and abolish China's policy no one would refuse to do so just to make some kind of point against the USA. That's just some USian paranoid delusional fantasy about everyone being jealous of USian freedoms ... get over it, no one is jealous of modern US freedoms.

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Originally posted by robbie_dee:
Well I've written my Congressman and Senator and participated in at least a couple of protests. Those options are available to me because the US remains (at least nominally) a democracy. Obviously that's not the case in China. Chinese residents who take similar steps might quite literally be putting their own lives at risk while doing so. And I am somewhat at a loss for measures to take as a foreigner. Once again, since you started the thread please tell me your suggestions so that I might follow them.

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I think those are all good things, robbie_dee.

Other things worth considering:

Contributing funds to organizations dedicated to abolishing the death penalty or to educating the public about alternatives to the death penalty, such as the NAACP Legal Defense Fund or the ACLU’s Capital Punishment Project.

I assisted in this case (Albert Burrell death penalty appeal) on a volunteer basis when I was working with Pincus on this successful challenge to a death sentence. Certainly, not everyone can do this but if you happen to be an attorney, there are always good pro bono opportunities on this area of law.

Writing op/ed pieces (or Internet blogs) to educate people.

I think that in educating the public, an emphasis should be placed on the following:

1. The possibility (or probability) of executing an innocent person. This would resonate with many people in the public who are borderline supporters of capital punishment.
2. The waste of taxpayer money in trying and appealing these cases. In order to help minimize (but not eliminate) the problem of No. 1 above, every reasonable legal safeguard must be given to death penalty defendants and that is very, very costly.
3. No evidence that capital punishment deters potential offenders because, in my opinion, the application of the penalty is too arbitrary.
4. A fairness appeal: A disproportionate number of people convicted of murder and sentenced to death are blacks.
5. Retribution (for the retribution minded): Death is too easy. A murderer should be left to live and suffer with the consequences of his actions.

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Originally posted by No Yards:
Most of us have weighted the likelihood of making any affect on the issue, and have come to the conclusion that as hard as it might be, the USA is the target that we can most likely affect ...

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Originally posted by No Yards:
You're right, we are wasting our time trying to talk to a bunch of ignorant self important selfish morons, and will have a better change with the more intelligent and worldly Chinese.

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Originally posted by Sven:

[SARCASM]I'm sure the Chinese know a lot more about Canada.[/SARCASM]

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Actually the Chinese do know a lot more about Canada than 'Americans'. The Chinese still celebrate Dr,. Norman Bethune, who is famous in China for his contribution during the Chinese Revolution. Bethune died in China in 1939 from an infection contracted while operating in a field hospital.

According to Wikipaedia:

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Dr. Bethune was born in Gravenhurst, Ontario, Canada. A thoracic surgeon, he travelled to Spain (1936-1937) and China (1938-1939) to perform battlefield surgical operations on war casualties.

Bethune's work in Spain in developing mobile medical units was the model for the later development of Mobile Army Surgical Hospital (MASH) units. The need to provide blood transfusions in a battlefield context led him to develop the first practical method for transporting blood.

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So you have Bethune to thank for M.A.S.H. units, which I doubt is popular knowledge in the USA.

According to the Ministry of Culture in China:

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A revered internationalist and humanitarian, and an old friend of the Chinese people, Dr. Bethune is known to almost every household in China for his important contributions to the liberation cause of the Chinese people.

His love of peace and spirit of selflessness bespeak a loftiness of character which should inspire pride in Canadians and Chinese alike.

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Of course, there was also the official recognition of China by the Trudeau Government in 1970, which beat the US recognition by a few years.

Then there are probably more expat Chinese in Canada than expat Americans.

It's a covert operation call LAFF, the operatives are paradoxically right out in the open and known to all, but I can only mention intitials like SNL, JC, MM and hope you get it.

[ 06 December 2005: Message edited by: a citizen of winnipeg ]

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Originally posted by Kassandra:
I think that any government that kills it's own citizens has not quite accomplished civilization. It just shows that the state still fears it's own.
We castigate the US more because of the hypocrisy factor; they pretend to be christian, the Chinese do not.

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I don't think it's specifically because they pretend to be Christian. In fact, their constitution denies a state religion.

However, they do pretend to be the shining beacon of freedom and democracy that all should emulate. Is that not the propaganda about Iraq and the Middle East?

They are also the country with the greatest number of military establishments around the world, the facilitator of Islamic fundametalist terrorism, and the supporter of countless bloody dictators, inlcuding even Saddam Hussein, when it was in their interest.

As far as capital punishment, I venture to guess that a majority of US citizens are in favour of capital punishment, and would wish to see it's use expanded.

It has often been remarked that a majority of Canadians favour capital punishment, and it is a tribute to the Canadian government that they refuse to comply with those wishes.

I doubt whether the Chinese are any different. I suspect that capital punishment is favoured by their population as well. And I suspect their government uses capital punishment to show their willingness to comply with popular public sentiment.