[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: Webgear ]

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Originally posted by Webgear:
It could have been any number of security forces found in Kandahar Provicne; all major and most minor government/NGO groups have armed security guards.

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A Canadian soldier has died in Afghanistan after insurgents attacked a remote outpost in the volatile Panjwaii district. It's the second death in three days.

Master Cpl. Erin Doyle was killed early Monday in the attack. He was a member of the 3rd battalion of the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, based out of Edmonton.

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Canadian soldier killed in attack by insurgent forces, another seriously wounded

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A soldier from an Edmonton-based battalion was killed early Monday in southern Afghanistan when insurgents attacked his combat outpost in the Panjwaii district, military officials say.

Master Cpl. Erin Doyle of the 3rd Battalion Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry is the second Canadian soldier to be killed in combat in three days.

A second soldier was seriously injured in the attack and taken to the multinational hospital at Kandahar Airfield for treatment. ...

[Brig.-Gen. Denis Thompson] said Canadian soldiers returned fire and called for artillery and air support.

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Once again, Canadian commanders show their cowardice in refusing to face Afghan forces in face-to-face battle without calling in U.S. air support.

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"Master Cpl. Doyle was killed while he was protecting his position and his fellow soldiers," Thompson said, adding that the enemy was defeated.

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Wishful thinking in place of accuracy in reporting... With a commander like this, Canada will be down for the count soon.

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

This latest one at least is coming down out of the clouds a bit. While the soldier killed on July 19 was a "hero", the one killed on August 9 was just "courageous", and the one killed today gets no glowing adjectives at all.

As the Sea King helicopter that I was travelling in with some fellow MPs on my recent trip to Afghanistan roared over the dessert surrounding Kandahar Air Field, I realized that the soldiers perched tensely by the open door of the chopper, eyeing the ground for suspicious movements.

I saw first hand what is happening on the ground and two things became clear. Our people are professional and dedicated. But the direction of this mission is not working. The recent escalation of insurgent attacks in Kandahar validates the unanimously acknowledged conclusion that this war cannot be won militarily.

I joined the committee trip that took us from Kabul to Kandahar and finally to the Provincial Reconstruction Team (PRT) compound to find out more about the three key challenges now facing Afghanistan: security, development and comprehensive peace. Following John Manley's report on the war and the subsequent extension of the mission to 2011 it has become clear that Canada has entered a new phase of this engagement. I went on this trip to see the on-the-ground realities for myself and with the belief that for Canadians the question has never been whether we help Afghanistan, but rather, how we help.

While I am grateful for the opportunity to have seen the structure and direction of the mission with my own eyes, the agenda of the trip was a carefully crafted package of meetings, presentations, and a tight media embargo lasting the length of the whole trip that prohibited a clear overview of the security situation in Afghanistan. It is important for Canadians to know that this mission is coming under close scrutiny and criticism by Afghan politicians. I heard resounding calls for change. Afghans know that a "business as usual" approach is no longer tenable.

If lasting peace and regional stability are ever to be achieved, it is essential that this mission immediately come under civilian leadership. What we are seeing today is a problem with the direction and structure of the mission which are not designed to address the root causes of the insurgency movement. The Canadian women and men serving in Afghanistan are bravely carrying out their duties with professionalism and dedication. But, this war cannot be won militarily. No one can deny that security has worsened in the south. In order to deliver true, stable security we must do more to involve Afghans in the delivery of aid, reconstruction and governance. We must focus on diplomacy and a political solution.

A particularly worrisome trend in Afghanistan today is the increasing dominance of US military policies in every aspect of this mission. President Karzai himself has openly criticized this tendency. In our meeting with him, the President was clear and absolute in his critique of U.S. military tactics, particularly aerial bombings. And due to our association with American troops and their tactics, these criticisms are levelled at Canada as well. Under Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF), the U.S. is financing the training of the Afghan Police to the tune of $8 billion. This is an initiative coordinated with Canada. Despite attempts by the Canadian government to suggest that the US OEF has nothing to do with its ISAF mission, I saw clear indications on this trip that our government is working in tandem with the US OEF. Furthermore, the "Team" in Kandahar's PRT consists of Canadian Forces and agencies working alongside the US Department of State, USAID and the US Police Mentoring Teams. Shockingly, not one Afghan entity is considered to be a team member.

While funds and energy are overwhelmingly focused on military concerns, most experts agree that poverty is in fact by far the greatest contributor to the mounting insurgency. According to the parliamentarians and municipal politicians I spoke to, the primary concerns of their constituents are poverty and health care. Afghanistan has been hard hit by the global food crisis. The price of 100 kilograms of wheat has skyrocketed from $1,500 to $6,000 and starvation has become a real threat in some parts of the country. The grim reality is that the insurgency pays better than the legitimate economy for many of the young unemployed Afghans whose families rely on them as breadwinners. In other words, development aid and job training are integral to ensuring long-term security in Afghanistan.

This trip reinforced to me the conclusion that the challenges that Afghanistan faces are political and they require political solutions. NATO officials were first to acknowledge in our meetings that NATO is not suited to do nation-building. The need for greater involvement by the UN and its agencies has never been clearer. Unlike NATO, the UN and its agencies have an explicit mandate to do peace-building and have the experience in on-the-ground development. A new UN resolution on Afghanistan, mandating a new mission with clear emphasis on peace and development, is the best way to help Afghanistan change itself for the better.

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Originally posted by unionist:
Jack Layton is swift - he now issues a statement within hours of each Canadian soldier's death, and it gets featured on the NDP's website (which still, stubbornly, refuses to call for Omar Khadr's return to Canada, besides other little issues).

This latest one at least is coming down out of the clouds a bit. While the soldier killed on July 19 was a "hero", the one killed on August 9 was just "courageous", and the one killed today gets no glowing adjectives at all.

Perhaps someone on his staff recalled that we're supposed to be bringing the troops home - alive. Remember that convention resolution? Anyone?

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Do you really think that Mr. Layton writes these death notices or just some staff?

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: Webgear ]

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Originally posted by Webgear:

Do you really think that Mr. Layton writes these death notices or just some staff?

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I take responsibility for things I sign. Do you?

And how do you think Master Corporal Doyle's family feels about Master Corporal Roberts being described as "courageous" and Corporal Arnal as a "hero ... whose memory remains alive in the hearts of all New Democrats across the country?"

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Originally posted by unionist:

I take responsibility for things I sign. Do you?

And how do you think Master Corporal Doyle's family feels about Master Corporal Roberts being described as "courageous" and Corporal Arnal as a "hero ... whose memory remains alive in the hearts of all New Democrats across the country?"

I mean, I'm just as much in favour of empty rhetoric as the next guy, but isn't this a teeny bit disrespectful and in bad taste?

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I take responsibility for all my actions and words.

Mr Layton is a politician, he and other politicians are full of empty rhetoric and being disrespectful and having bad taste is the norm.

It is like the unions that say they are against the war however they have no problem manufacturing or processing material for the war effort.

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Originally posted by Webgear:
It is like the unions that say they are against the war however they have no problem manufacturing or processing material for the war effort.

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You mean workers, don't you? They do their job, and they also speak against the war.

Would that our soldiers would do likewise.

I predict that growing numbers will do so, just as they have done in the U.S.

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Originally posted by Toby Fourre:

Yes, but why the secrecy? Why won't the government tell us who killed that soldier? Why won't they tell us who the private security firms are? Or who's paying the bill? Or just what the mercenaries are contracted to do?

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Toby

I found this article for you.

Death of Canadian soldier highlights chaotic security situation in southern Afghanistan

NDP calls for Action on Khadr Case June '07

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... call on the Director of Public Prosecutions to investigate, and, if warranted, prosecute Omar Khadr for offences under Canadian law.

· take such measures as are necessary to ensure that possible security concerns are appropriately and adequately addressed upon the repatriation of Omar Khadr. ...

· call on the relevant Canadian authorities to ensure that an appropriate rehabilitation and reintegration program is developed for Omar Khadr, which takes into account legitimate security concerns. To the extent necessary, such a program could place judicially enforceable /conditions on Omar Khadr’s conduct.

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Here are some answers to your earlier question.

The Canadian Forces National Investigative Service is looking into the death of Master Cpl. Joshua Roberts, who was mortally wounded in the turret of his light armoured vehicle during a confused battle with militants on Saturday.

The deadly shots were allegedly fired by employees of Compass Security Solutions, who initially claimed they were shooting at Taliban and had no idea coalition troops were in the area.

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Originally posted by unionist:
Even after six years of unlawful detention and torture by the U.S., some people still consider that it's time to investigate and lay some charges against this dangerous individual.

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Canadian law professor and federal NDP candidate Michael Byers had this to say about Khadr:

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"I think the fact that he was a juvenile is likely to exculpate him completely," said Byers, UBC's Canadian Research Chair in International Law and Politics who recently announced his intention to seek election under the New Democratic Party banner.

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I think Khadr was hung out to dry by Jean Chretien, Paul Martin, and now Steve Harper. The NDP pushing and prodding the two old line parties to do something more than nothing for Khadr is his best and only hope so far other than his American military lawyer who has urged Ottawa to fight for his rights as a Canadian citizen.

eta: And I think your suggesting that Khadr should simply be freed from Gitmo and released into Canadian society is noble and well intentioned. Khadr is most certainly an angry and confused young man after six years of torture and deprivation, in a dark place where basic human rights and international law are trampled on a daily basis. Omar Khadr may never fully recover mentally or emotionally from his personal tragedy and theft of over one-third of his life and counting.

Not only have two old line party governments in Ottawa and their imperial masters in Washington already refused to listen to similar well-intentioned requests for Khadr's immediate release, they are refusing to respect international laws ranging from children's rights to Nuremberg code and Geneva conventions on war established since WW II. The fight for Khadr's Canadian citizen rights, as well as his internationally agreed upon rights as a child, has to come from federal government in Ottawa. And what better advocate to have for Khadr in Ottawa than Byers, an expert in international law and NDP hopeful? Khadr needs a cracker Jack on his side not Liberal or Conservative stoogeocrats who've done absolutely nothing for him thus far.

[ 16 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by Fidel:
The NDP pushing and prodding the two old line parties to do something more than nothing for Khadr is his best and only hope so far other than his American military lawyer who has urged Ottawa to fight for his rights as a Canadian citizen.

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You're overlooking the efforts of the much larger BQ parliamentary caucus.

Oh, and thanks for reminding us about Michael Byers. That article you linked to also has him proposing to pass new legislation, if necessary, that would allow Canada to charge Khadr here:

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"If there was a legislative impediment or an absence of legislative basis for doing anything with regards to Khadr, that could very easily be fixed," he said.

"I don't anticipate that there would be any problem if the government wanted to ask for special legislation to accommodate his circumstances."

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[ 16 August 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

Bloc MP Vivian Barbot takes the floor and talks about a life of repression in Haiti under a string of right brutal and bloody bunch of bastards propped up by the Yanks over several decades. And I'm not sure if she is the same Bloc MP who demanded the NDP stop referring to Aristide as "removed" in favour of "departed" or not. She could be. One point, the Yanks won't give two shits about our pleas to release Khadr unconitionally. And it's because hawks in that country and embedded bureaucrats pretty much do as they please in affairs of the colonies.

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The Taliban issued an open letter to Canada Sunday saying more Canadians will be killed like the aid workers who were gunned down near Kabul last week if troops are not pulled out of Afghanistan.

“Afghanistan has to try to have good relations with you, but if your government continues a reversed policy, the Afghans will be obliged to kill your nationals, in revenge for their brothers, their sisters, and their children. Events such as Logar will happen again, because occupied Afghanistan looks at all actors that are established in the interest of America with an eye of hostility,” the Taliban said in the letter that was signed the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan.

“Therefore, you have to convince your government to put an end to the occupation of Afghanistan, so that the Afghans are not killed with your hands and so that you are not killed with the hands of the Afghans.” ...

“The Canadian people have to realize if their sisters, their brothers, and their children are being killed in Afghanistan, it is because of the wrong policy of the government of Canada and their falling under the influence of others when they sent occupation soldiers to Afghanistan,” said the letter.

“The Canadian people, when they express condolences for the death of two Canadian women in Logar in Afghanistan, and consider themselves grieved, they have to know that the Canadian forces, under American command, handicap tens among the Afghan people every day to this kind of condolence, and they kill, in addition to men, numbers of women and children, as well.” ...

“The Afghans did not go to Canada to kill the Canadians. Rather, it is the Canadians who came to Afghanistan to kill and torture the Afghan, to please the fascist regime of America. Your government did not take into account the national interests of Canada, and did not follow a neutral policy. It sacrificed its national and international respect and standing in service of the interests of America.”

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Originally posted by unionist:
If anyone finds the full text of the letter, please post it.

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There are, however, two additional comments from Taliban spokesmen that have been reported:

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In an interview with The Canadian Press, Taliban spokesman Qari Muhammad Yussef affirmed the Taliban position that it does not wish to harm Canadians or be harmed by Canadians.

"Canadians are working under the policy of America. It is a big mistake," he said. "Don't sacrifice your politics for America." [CP]

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Zabiullah Mujahid, who identifies himself as spokesman for Taliban, said in a telephone interview that journalists may also be targeted.

"If we arrest their journalists or aid workers we will target them as we did in Logar province. They are not differentiating women and children with military targets, and we will not differentiate theirs too." CanWest

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- Source

[ 18 August 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

We can use that to make a further point: This isn't a democracy. We don't control these people.

(Obviously, the audience I have in mind is mostly Canadian.)

[ 18 August 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

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Originally posted by RosaL:
I suggest we put together an open letter to the Taliban telling them that our rulers will not allow us to see the letter.

We can use that to make a further point: This isn't a democracy. We don't control these people.

(Obviously, the audience I have in mind is mostly Canadian.)

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I really think that's a bad idea, although well-intentioned.

Our duty is not to weep and whine about how we can't stop our own elected murderers from waging war against the Afghan people. Our duty is to stop them.

10 French soldiers killed, 21 injured

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Ten French soldiers were killed Tuesday and 21 others were injured in a gun battle with insurgents near the Afghan capital Kabul, President Nicolas Sarkozy's office confirmed in a statement.

The president's office said the soldiers were ambushed on Monday during a joint reconnaissance mission with the Afghan National Army. Media reports said the battle, which continued into Tuesday, was in an area about 55 kilometres east of the capital. ...

Meanwhile on Tuesday, a suicide bomber attacked a joint Canadian-Afghan patrol in Kandahar province, killing an Afghan interpreter and injuring a Canadian soldier and a local boy, the Canadian military said. ...

NATO also announced that British soldier was killed Monday in an insurgent attack while on patrol in southern Afghanistan.

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Originally posted by unionist:

I really think that's a bad idea, although well-intentioned.

Our duty is not to weep and whine about how we can't stop our own elected murderers from waging war against the Afghan people. Our duty is to stop them.

That's what we owe the Afghan people, no more, no less.

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Yeah, my posts are too short. It's not always clear what I mean. The point isn't to weep and whine. It's to make people aware of the situation so they will, amongst other things, stop them!

[ 19 August 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

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Originally posted by unionist:
Ungrateful Afghans kill more altruistic foreign guests:

10 French soldiers killed, 21 injured

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Maybe not France: No Comment On Report NATO Jets Hit Afghanistan Troops

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"We had no more ammunition for our other weapons and we were left only with our Famas (assault rifles)," one soldier, who wasn't named, was quoted as saying. When NATO planes finally arrived to help them they sometimes missed their target and hit French troops, the paper quotes the soldiers as saying.

Afghan soldiers sent in as backup also mistakenly targeted the French soldiers, it said.

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[ 20 August 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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How glorious it would be for Canada to be the first country to pull out, forced by the will of its people.[/QB]

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OTTAWA -- Taliban militants reportedly amassed a 600-strong fighting force and dragged out bigger weapons only 10 months after being routed by NATO forces in a landmark 2006 battle west of Kandahar, newly released documents have revealed.

The heavily censored records, released to The Canadian Press under access-to-information laws, provide a glimpse of the insurgency and the heavy odds faced by Afghan security forces and their Canadian trainers as they battle to hold territory.

Much has been made of the scope and complexity of the ambush that killed 10 French soldiers on Tuesday in eastern Afghanistan. But the documents, withheld for months by the Department of National Defence, suggest Taliban commanders have long been gaining critical battle experience in Kandahar, using Afghan security forces as target practice.

[snip]

As late as last spring, NATO commanders, Canadians among them, played down the suggestion that insurgents were prepared to take them on in head-to-head combat.

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Repaired Link.

ETA: Whoops! And thanks to unionist.

[ 21 August 2008: Message edited by: sgm ]

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Taliban militants reportedly amassed a 600-strong fighting force and dragged out bigger weapons only 10 months after being routed by NATO forces in a landmark 2006 battle west of Kandahar, newly released documents have revealed.

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I meant to post on that at the time, but didn't. Anyway, what a load o' crap. Routed my ass! I understand why this sort of public propaganda appears during wars, but I'm worried the military wonks are starting to believe their own press releases.

10 months ago, the Taliban created a show of military strength and blew up some infrastructure, making the NATO forces scramble like crazy to fill in the gaps, and then after taking losses in the following skirmish dispersed in the face of conventional forces. I'm sure they learned a lot from it, but the real message was to the locals, to remind them of who's really running the show. There was no route. Now they're demonstrating to the people of Afghanistan that they can do this any time they want.

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Retired Canadian major-general Lewis MacKenzie says the reports demonstrate why Ottawa's plea for 1,000 NATO reinforcements in Kandahar was so urgent and just what kind of fight the army faced last year as the country debated when to end the mission.

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I'm reminded of a great movie that came out on HBO some years ago where Alec Baldwin does an eerie job of playing US Defense Secretary Robert MacNamara. Really worth seeing.

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A US-led operation in western Afghanistan has killed 76 civilians, including 50 children and 19 women, according to claims from the Afghan interior ministry.

But the death toll has been challenged by US forces, who said only 30 people, all of them Taliban fighters, lost their lives in today's air strikes.

Another Afghan government department, the defence ministry, said five civilians and 25 insurgents died in the operation in Shindand district in Herat province.

If the figure of 76 civilians is proved correct, it would be one of the largest civilian losses of life since the US-led operation against the Taliban began in 2001.

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Google News to the rescue:

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
CBC is reporting that the Afgan govt is blaming the deaths of 76 civillians - mostly women and children - on coalition forces today. No online link yet.

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"People are very angry," Khodr reported. "This is not the first time. Hamid Karzai, the Afghan president, has made repeated calls for Nato to stop air strikes."

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Originally posted by Fidel:
It looks like our two old line parties have managed to drag Canadians into a U.S. quagmire supported by that country's two old line war parties. It just never ends. Four more wars!!!

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I know? Let's make it really easy for the Conservatives at every turn, LIKE DION AND THE LIBERALS have done on a consistent basis by refusing to back the NDP AGAINST Harper and call an election. It's clear to me who the two wings of the exact same party are:

[ 22 August 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Yes. That Black is talking like a Liberal and if "Liberals = Conservatives and vice versa" then Black is a Conservative.

[ 22 August 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Fidel:
I don't see anything on the Liberal web site stating that they've pledged to bring the troops home - just plenty of mealy-mouthed backpedalling and promises to oppose the Conservatives once they get their shit together and create some daylight between them and Crazy George's other party of lap poodles in Ottawa, the Conservatives!

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Originally posted by A_J:

New NDP Afghanistan policy - troops out, helicopters in?

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Ya, the two old line parties can't stand for the NDP to point out what a bad job they do of even the most basic colonial administrative duties like providing enough air support for our imperial-colonial troops they place in grave danger.

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
How about a new slogan then:

We are left liberals who will keep their promises unlike the other Liberals who always lie.

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
How did the Real Thread About The NDP And Afghanistan bleed over into this one?

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Guess what, Fidel? We've gotten over the two old-line parties long ago, so you can give that tired horse a rest.

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The two stoogeocratic old line parties are propping one another's party up in Ottawa right now. Canadians have [n]not[/b] gotten over those tired old mares which should have been put out to pasture about 70 years ago as an exercise in democracy.

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Originally posted by A_J:

New NDP Afghanistan policy - troops out, helicopters in?

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
[QB Your demanding respect for your party because the other parties are sycophants for the empire sounds more and more like a liberal saying don't vote for the cons they are worse than us.[/QB]

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Except that you know what the Liberals are all about after that party dragged Canadians into Crazy George's quagmire in Kandahar, home of the Taliban.

[ 22 August 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

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"You are incredibly well-trained, as well-trained as any other nation over there," Brig.-Gen. Jean-Claude Collin told the assembled troops.

"You are ready. And perhaps most importantly, you have a government of Canada and strategic leadership that is going to let you do what you know needs to be done."

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Harper's little bastards, masquerading as brigadier generals.

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Originally posted by contrarianna:
Really Fidel,you are quite the puzzle. For someone who could vie for some babble "most revolutionary poster" marquee, you seem to be content with whatever rightward drift the NDP embraces.
Try repeating: "I am allowed, on the rare occasion, to deviate from my party's line (however vague it may be)". Theoretically, they even encourage it.
The NDP will never aim to have a Stalinist politburo that will send you to a gulag if you disagree--I hope that's not a
problem.

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Originally posted by contrarianna:

The NDP will never aim to have a Stalinist politburo that will send you to a gulag if you disagree--I hope that's not a
problem.

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There is a difference. Neither Stalin or the communists ruled Russia as long as "Liberals" have ruled by a string of phony-majority dictatorships in Ottawa.

In fact, polls show more support for Stalin in Russia today than eligible voters in Canada showed for either of the two old line parties in the 2006 election.

I think Stalin would be more electible in Russia today that either Stephane Harper or Steve Dion, the current two Washington lap dogs. And they have to prop each other's party up because no one else will.

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This corrupt and murderous general command cannot be cured. The armed forces should be dismantled, and we should start over with a force that can actually defend the Canadian people.

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Ben Franklin opines that those who beat their swords into ploughshares end up plowing for those who don't.

Why don't you just show them all and refuse to ever come out from under your bed? I suppose, that "actually defend the Canadian people" refers to protecting you from harm does it?

What a pile of drivel you spout,unionist. In history,there has never been an instance of a learned superior society conquering a warrior society by teaching and setting an example. It is always the learned superior society that is conquered and destroyed by a warrior society because the learned types are weak and afraid.

This world has no shortage of opportunists willing to conquer what they can. The prefered method these days is not nation to nation but non-state entities attempting to undermine the state. There are also rogue states, megalomaniacs like Putin, imperialist adventurers like Bush and the just plain crazys.

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Originally posted by jester:
If anything,Canada will increase its capacity in counter-insurgency.

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To protect you, jester, from Canadians looking for their rights?

All I meant was that Canada's "aid" to Afghanistan serves only to kill Canadians and Afghans, as well as potentially expose Canada to both legitimate and extremist counter-attack. I don't want any of that, and if (as the brigadier general said, unless he's just a filthy liar), this is "what you know needs to be done", then such a corrupted quasi-political body must be abolished, now.

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«Ce sont tous des civils», a reconnu le ministère de l’Intérieur afghan qui a exprimé «ses plus vifs regrets pour cet incident involontaire».

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antiwar.com

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Shortly later, Afghanistan’s Interior Ministry released a statement regarding the incident. In it they announced that 76 people, all civilians, had actually been killed in the strike. Among those killed were seven men, 19 women, and 50 children under the age of 15. The Independent quotes council member Saeed Sharif as saying the victims “were attending a holy Koran recitation” when the bombing began. The Ministry expressed “profound regret” for the killings, which they described as accidental, and promised to dispatch a delegation to conduct a full investigation.

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Tribal elders said a bomb had been dropped on mourners at a wake in Herat.

Meanwhile, a local MP said Afghan security forces had fired on hundreds of people protesting against the raid.

He said they had killed at least one person and wounded two others.

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Herat - US-led coalition forces killed 76 Afghan civilians in western Afghanistan yesterday, most of them children, the country's Interior Ministry said.

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Wasden's loved ones said he wanted to make Afghanistan a better place for its children and loved giving out shoes and other gifts to the children there.

Soldiers recalled Wasden always saying, "Are we not doing it for the kids?"

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Originally posted by unionist:

To protect you, jester, from Canadians looking for their rights?

All I meant was that Canada's "aid" to Afghanistan serves only to kill Canadians and Afghans, as well as potentially expose Canada to both legitimate and extremist counter-attack. I don't want any of that, and if (as the brigadier general said, unless he's just a filthy liar), this is "what you know needs to be done", then such a corrupted quasi-political body must be abolished, now.

Hopefully we'll be able to get our house back in order before the barbarians at the gate give you a heart attack.

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If you want 'rights' you better find a cudgel to secure them because contrary to opinion here, 'rights' don't come cheap.

Don't worry about me. My heart is just fine and I'm armed to the teeth. The barbarians at the gate may drag you screaming from under your bed but my crowd are made of sterner stuff.

We will never have our house in order because the dysfunctionality of our military procurement programs are a requirement for squandering tax dollars in the favour of self-interested parties in the military,government,industry and procurement jackals.

Its a continuous cycle of unrealistic demands,inappropriate funding,never-ending changes in priorities and unrealised expectations that benefit only the participants,not the military or the taxpayer.

Canada's realistic military platform requirements can be met with proven off the shelf designs from other countries built in Canada by a consortium of international companies for the benefit of all but that would leave out the pork for military brass,PWC wankers and various enablers.

Its not about military adventurism in Afghanistan,its about keeping the military profile high enough to dupe the taxpayer into funding more waste.

Many deaths in Afghanistan could have been prevented by timely provision of helicopter assets but the Air Command are more concerned with lobbying for expensive US toys and continually changing the requirements than they are with doing their job.

Today, the Joint Support Ship program and Coast Guard ship replacement programs were cancelled after millions of dollars of time wasting. next week, they will begin the expensive time wasting all over again.

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Soldiers recalled Wasden always saying, "Are we not doing it for the kids?"

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Originally posted by jester:

If you want 'rights' you better find a cudgel to secure them because contrary to opinion here, 'rights' don't come cheap.

Don't worry about me. My heart is just fine and I'm armed to the teeth. The barbarians at the gate may drag you screaming from under your bed but my crowd are made of sterner stuff.

We will never have our house in order because the dysfunctionality of our military procurement programs are a requirement for squandering tax dollars in the favour of self-interested parties in the military,government,industry and procurement jackals.

Its a continuous cycle of unrealistic demands,inappropriate funding,never-ending changes in priorities and unrealised expectations that benefit only the participants,not the military or the taxpayer.

Canada's realistic military platform requirements can be met with proven off the shelf designs from other countries built in Canada by a consortium of international companies for the benefit of all but that would leave out the pork for military brass,PWC wankers and various enablers.

Its not about military adventurism in Afghanistan,its about keeping the military profile high enough to dupe the taxpayer into funding more waste.

Many deaths in Afghanistan could have been prevented by timely provision of helicopter assets but the Air Command are more concerned with lobbying for expensive US toys and continually changing the requirements than they are with doing their job.

Today, the Joint Support Ship program and Coast Guard ship replacement programs were cancelled after millions of dollars of time wasting. next week, they will begin the expensive time wasting all over again.

Afghanistan is just a sideshow, a feint to keep the taxpayer from paying attention to the real game - wasting money for the self-interest of the in-crowd.

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Kabul is vulnerable to blockades because it is surrounded by mountains and has to ship in supplies on three roads leading north, east and southwest. The British learnt this the hard way during the siege of Kabul in 1841, documented by Lady Florentia Sale in A Journal of the Disasters in Afghanistan. “Khojeh Meer says that he has no more grain,” she wrote on December 3, 1841. “He also says that the moolahs have been to all the villages and laid the people under ban not to assist the English and that consequently the Mussulman population are as one man against us.” A month later, the British began their retreat from Kabul.

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Interesting post.

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Many deaths in Afghanistan could have been prevented by timely provision of helicopter assets but the Air Command are more concerned with lobbying for expensive US toys and continually changing the requirements than they are with doing their job.

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As Pakistan destabilises with the resignation of Musharrif and the ongoing riots in Kashmir, the strategic depth of Afghanistan will be paramount to a Pakistani military obssessed by the threat India presents.

Pakistan's miltary considers support of Islamic militants as support of Pakistani reserves. It is a melding of state and non-state military resources to repel a common foe and if Pakistan needs to foment unrest in Afghanistan to secure the support of its irregular non-state reserves against India, no price is too high.

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

Here is Jester lobbying for helicopters, expensive toys, that would have prevented many deaths in Afghanistan, based on what evidence? If Canada got helicopters the Taliban high command would say, "oh, well, if you're going to be like that we give up.Here are our weapons?

That is indeed interesting.

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However, it takes very little imagination, to see that should their targets change local, so too would their means to getting at said targets change.

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Originally posted by remind:
No actually it doesn't lend credence jester. They use IED's, as that is where their targets are, and not flying around.

However, it takes very little imagination, to see that should their targets change local, so too would their means to getting at said targets change.

helicopters are easily brought down with machine gun fire, rocket propelled grenages, rocket launchers and anti-aircraft guns.

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Because suicide bombing violates the Afghan warrior code and the Taliban cannot prevail in direct confrontation, the use of IEDs is the most productive of their strategies.

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Originally posted by Fidel:
I was under the impression that Pakistan's "strategic depth" was more a going concern for them before high-ranking U.S. officials were alleged to have helped them obtain nuclear weapons know-how?

I don't think the Taliban have very many U.S. Stinger missiles left on hand to be used in bringing down helicopters. I would think they would want to save those babies for special occasions, like air cargo and troop carriers and USAF reconaissance planes.

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From what I know, Stinger target acquisition hardware degrades over time and hands on skills are not easily acquired. The consensus from analysts is that any Stingers still in Taliban hands are not functional.

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. The fact that 46% of Canadian deaths occured from IEDs lend credence to rotary resupply.

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In any case, the Taliban are still killing them (the Americans, the British, and the French) oui? So is it because the deployment of helicopters in Afghanistan is something only Canadians can do?

And, so far as your concerned, only Canadian deaths are at issue? When you say "deaths", for example, you aren't speaking of all deaths?

[ 23 August 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

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This is the 13th helicopter shot down in Afghanistan since the US invasion in 2002; 75 US soldiers have died in the crashes. NATO says it will crack down on Taliban fighters in the region. Meanwhile, the Taliban is trumping NATO's report, claiming 35 were killed in the Helmand crash.

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

The Americans and the British use helicopters and it was the French who were to lend them to Canadians, oui? Non?

In any case, the Taliban are still killing them (the Americans, the British, and the French) oui? So is it because the deployment of helicopters in Afghanistan is something only Canadians can do?

And, so far as your concerned, only Canadian deaths are at issue? When you say "deaths", for example, you aren't speaking of all deaths?

[ 23 August 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

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Originally posted by jester:
The consensus from analysts is that any Stingers still in Taliban hands are not functional.

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Kabul Confirms New Effort To Buy Back U.S.-Built Stinger Missiles 2005

Apparently Pakistani ISI has been accused of funneling replacement battery packs for Stingers to the Taliban. They might have 40 or so. Apparently the Iranians captured stinger missile parts and pieces from Afghan guerillas wandering across their border in the 1980's.

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Originally posted by remind:
Well, not according to reports as of 2007 regarding NATO helicopters fidel:

Taliban fighters shot down a NATO Chinook helicopter in Afghanistan

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[ 23 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by jester:
13 helicopters in 6 years, out of how many helicopter flights? These losses are statistically irrelevant.

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Oh, really, so those 75 dead, who have died through helicopters being shot down, are statistically irrelevant, when only 18 more Canadians have died, without helicopters, in the same amount of time, 6 years?

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Nice try. As far as I can ascertaine, 46% of Canadian deaths. In this instance, the statistic concerns Canadian deaths, not other deaths but to assuage any neglect you might entertain, I consider all deaths equally significant: insurgent, coalition, civilian, dope dealer, arms supplier, foreign provocateur, they are all equal in deserving the mercy of the almighty.

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Putting aside your humanity which I'm sure deserves a Nobel Prize, your premise is purely speculative no different than any of the other lobbyists promoting expensive toys. Further, it over looks the larger question of why are we even there with our expensive toys being killed and killing several times more, anyway?

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Now, I think if NATO leaders were to step up troop numbers in Afghanistan to something comparable to the Soviet military occupation, specialized weapons like Stingers might suddenly appear out of nowhere for the Taliban. I'm just guessing though. The Russians did advise NATO that Afghanistan is a hopeless situation for would-be imperializers.

[ 23 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by remind:

Oh, really, so those 75 dead, who have died through helicopters being shot down, are statistically irrelevant, when only 18 more Canadians have died, without helicopters, in the same amount of time, 6 years?

Does it hurt your head to try and overlook auch discontinuities in your thoughts?

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I guess you really didn't like being shown that they can and will take down helicopters, and as such, helicopters mean sweet fuck all in protecting Canadian military personel.

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Originally posted by jester:

Its rather surprising that the Taliban don't already have access to more sophisticated SAMs and also the new armour-piercing RPGs.

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According to Pravda, tens of thousands of easy-to-use man portable missile systems were distributed all over the world by the Soviets, U.S., Britain, and France during the cold war. It sounds like the U.S. has been trying to pull as many out of general circulation as possible, which would be a good plan toward fufilling their own ambitions to occupy Iraq and Afghanistan militarily.

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Originally posted by Fidel:

According to Pravda, tens of thousands of easy-to-use man portable missile systems were distributed all over the world by the Soviets, U.S., Britain, and France during the cold war. It sounds like the U.S. has been trying to pull as many out of general circulation as possible, which would be a good plan toward fufilling their own ambitions to occupy Iraq and Afghanistan militarily.

I get the feeling that the Russians, Chinese, India, Iran etc realize NATO and U.S. hopes for occupation of those two countries is unrealistic over the long run. There is no real need to supply the Taliban as long as there are millions of future Taliban fighters in the oven and warming up on the sidelines. The only thing NATO may be achieving today by slaying the youth of those countries, is that it might even pave the road a little for larger surrounding countries to control them militarily some time down the road.

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Originally posted by remind:
Ahhh, so I take that to say, that you refuse to look at your own internal discontinuties in respect to your proclaimations that 75 dead, through helicopter attacks is statistically nothing over 6 years. Even though only 18 more Canadians have died, without helicopters, in the same 6 years. I guess 3 more dead a year without helicopters, is the statistical threshhold, for relevancy and meaning something.

I guess you really didn't like being shown that they can and will take down helicopters, and as such, helicopters mean sweet fuck all in protecting Canadian military personel.

Again, the only way to protect them is to bring them home, and not send anymore, anything else just rings with colonialist sanctimony and justification.

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My proclamations?

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Originally posted by jester:
13 helicopters in 6 years, out of how many helicopter flights? These losses are statistically irrelevant.

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Right here, jester, and I see you are resorting to personal attacks, in order to deflect away from your inability to see the discontinuity in your proclaimations.

Those 13 loses = 75 dead USA miltary personal in their helicopters that were brought down, nearly 1/5th of all lost US military personel in Afghanistan. Only 18 less than how many Canadians have died while on the ground.

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Coalition forces and the Afghan National Army say they have struck a "major blow" against insurgents operating in Afghanistan's volatile Zhari district, west of Kandahar City.

In what is being hailed as the biggest show of force this year [LOL!!! hailed by whom?? WHAT CRAP!!!] in the Taliban stronghold, Canadian and Afghan forces pushed through the central part of Zhari, battling with insurgents and confiscating weapons caches and a "significant amount" of materials used for building improvised explosive devices.

The three-day campaign, code-named Op Timis Preem, kicked off Thursday morning with a pre-emptive early-morning air strike [TRANSLATION: killing villagers while still asleep] on a known insurgent command-and-control centre in western Pashmul.

Two insurgent commanders were suspected to have been operating there and, while no confirmation has been made yet, they are believed to have been killed in the strike. ...

Flag-draped coffins carrying the men's remains arrived back on Canadian soil at a repatriation ceremony at Canadian Forces Base Trenton, Ont., yesterday evening. Beneath clear blue skies, the ceremony was attended by family and friends ... [GOD is on our side!!!]

Earlier this month, the Taliban ruthlessly gunned down three female aid workers, including two Canadians, and their Afghan driver in a brazen daylight attack south of Kabul. After the ambush, the Taliban issued an open letter to Canadians demanding they pull their troops out of Afghanistan or they will target "all" Canadians, including innocents, in the country in future attacks. [No "blue skies" here - the face of EVIL!!!]

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Originally posted by jester:
13 helicopters in 6 years, out of how many helicopter flights? These losses are statistically irrelevant.

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