quote:

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The United States has blocked a meeting of the NATO-Russia Council on the situation in South Ossetia, Russia’s Ambassador to NATO Dmitry Rogozin told Itar-Tass.

“I regard this demarche of the US delegation as the unwillingness to hold a serious discussion on the causes and consequences of the Georgian aggression against South Ossetia and as the American side’s unwillingness to answer in the presence of NATO countries’ delegation difficult questions about the degree of the US involvement in the preparation and development of these tragic events,” the official said.

---

Yes, it might be very embarrassing to have to answer questions in front of your NATO friends. The Russians are really making a strong effort to win the war of public relations.

Russia 1 USA 0

US blocks NATO-Russia Council Meeting

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

quote:

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International aid is being rushed to Georgia to deal with a humanitarian emergency created by the country's conflict with Russia.

The UN refugee agency, UNHCR, says nearly 100,000 people have been uprooted by the conflict over South Ossetia.

Georgia was already struggling to help some 275,000 people displaced in the early 1990s by fighting in South Ossetia and another breakaway region, Abkhazia.

The UNHCR says about 56,000 people fled Gori, a key town just outside South Ossetia, after Russian air raids. That amounts to about 80% of the town's population.

Georgia says dozens of civilians were killed when Russian bombs hit two blocks of flats in Gori. Reporters saw casualties at the scene, but the death toll has not been independently confirmed.

Tskhinvali in ruins

Reports from the UNHCR and Russian media speak of total devastation in the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali, with few buildings left intact after intense bombardments and street fighting.

Russian television showed pictures of a heavily damaged hospital in Tskhinvali, with wounded civilians lying in makeshift wards in the basement.

Families huddled in cellars, trapped by the fighting. They said they had had very little food and water for several days.

The intense fighting cut off supplies of running water and electricity. In many cases separated families were unable to contact each other by phone. Thousands did manage to flee - but often with few possessions.

Russian officials say more than 1,500 civilians were killed in Tskhinvali after Georgia launched an all-out assault last Friday, using heavy artillery and tanks. The casualty toll cannot be independently verified.

Giorgi Gogia, a researcher for Human Rights Watch in Tbilisi, described the Russian figure for Tskhinvali as "an exaggeration", adding: "It is clear that both sides are exaggerating, and that figures are inflated".

He said HRW, which is based in New York, had not found any evidence to back up Russian claims of atrocities committed by Georgian troops.

More than 30,000 civilians fled the fighting in Tskhinvali, Russian officials say. Most of them went to North Ossetia, which is part of the Russian Federation.

Several thousand fled south into Georgia and up to 12,000 people are estimated to be displaced within South Ossetia, officials say.

. . .

---

quote:

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In fact, Georgia has already reloaded during the conflict. They had just under 1,000 combat troops flown back to Tblisi from their active role in the occupation of Iraq ...compliments of the USA.

I rather doubt that US military "aid" will suddenly cease ... I expect it to suddenly increase .

---

Its only the predictable sources that will agree with that prediction.

quote:

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Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said on Tuesday he decided to end the military operation “to compel Georgia to peace”, as the result has been achieved.

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quote:

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Just to review:

Medvedev decides to end fighting.

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quote:

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Medvedev decides to end fighting in Georgia as aim achieved

12.08.2008, 13.06

MOSCOW, August 12 (Itar-Tass) -- Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said on Tuesday he decided to end the military operation “to compel Georgia to peace”, as the result has been achieved.

“On the basis of your report I have decided to end the operation to compel Georgian authorities to peace. The aim has been achieved,” he said at a meeting with Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov and Chief-of-Staff of the Armed Forces Nikolai Makarov.

However, he ordered the Russian military to “eliminate the aggressor” in case Georgian forces resume hostilities.

“In case hotbeds of resistance and other aggressive attacks take place take decisions to eliminate them,” he instructed Serdyukov and Makarov.

Medvedev said the security in the conflict zone has been restored.

---

quote:

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"Georgian peacekeepers can no longer stay in South Ossetia. They disgraced their title. They committed a crime by shooting at their comrades with whom they had served in the same peacekeeping contingent," [Russian Foreign Minister] Lavrov told a news conference after talks with his Finnish counterpart Alexander Stubb.

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Incidently, the FM made reference to Article 51 of the UN Charter as a basis for the actions of his government.

quote:

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Russia’s actions in South Ossetia conform to Article 51 of the UN Charter, which fixes the right to individual and collective self-defense," Lavrov stated.

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quote:

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Russia is no longer the spineless giant of the Nineties: Vladimir Putin's musclebound, oil-fuelled authoritarian regime has aggressively reinvigorated Russia. He had already shown his ruthless determination to master the Caucasus by crushing Chechnya. Nato in Georgia would have made that meaningless. The Kremlin has used its clients, Abkhazia and Ossetia, as Trojan Horses to ruin Tbilisi's independence - recently raising the tension by offering Russian passports to all Ossetians and testing Georgian resolve with cross-border skirmishing: the trap of a practised imperial power.

---

Timesonline]

Format errors

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: jester ]

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: jester ]

quote:

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ITAR/TASS: In 1999 western countries bombed former Yugoslavia to stop what they said was genocide of Kosovar Albanians and to oust President Slobodan Milosevic. Russia was angered, but did not interfere.

In 2008 Russia interfered to stop the Georgian bloodbath in breakaway Tskhinval and the genocide of South Ossetians, most of who are Russian citizens. Russian resolute retaliation to Georgian aggression triggered sharp criticism in the West showing it would prefer Moscow to be angered, but refrain from intervening, like it did in 1999.

Many Russian publications recall the 1999 events in former Yugoslavia. “US and NATO air force bombed the Serbian soil day and night – military units, towns, bridges, humanitarian convoys and even the Chinese embassy in Belgrade. Now we have South Ossetia. In less than in a day Georgian troops razed to the ground Tskhinval and surrounding villages by point blank fire from dominating heights.”

Carpet bombing from Georgian salvo fire systems Grad, heavy artillery, tanks and aircraft destroyed Tskhinval completely and killed 1400 civilian Ossetians in one day. The threat of humanitarian catastrophe emerged. Russia could not but interfere.

---

And look who's agreeing ....

quote:

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In Russia nobody doubts that Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili would never dare attack South Ossetia without western connivance. Former Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev is convinced the aggression was okayed by the United States, which heavily armed Georgia and trained its military.

“I am convinced it would not have happened without the consent of the United States. It has approved it,” he told Tass.

---

quote:

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Georgian leader rails against Russia, announces break from CIS
18:09 | 12/ 08/ 2008

MOSCOW, August 12 (RIA Novosti) - Georgia's president gave a speech in front of thousands of flag-waving supporters outside parliament on Tuesday, denouncing Russia and declaring his country's withdrawal from a post-Soviet alliance.

Mikheil Saakashvili has accused Russia of occupying half his country in a "peace enforcement operation" that ended on Tuesday. Russia says it no longer considers Saakashvili a partner, following Georgia's offensive in breakaway Ossetia last Friday, which killed at least 1,600 people, most of whom were Russian citizens.

"As president of Georgia, I stand before you in very difficult circumstances... Yesterday I saw with my own eyes how we were bombed," he said.

Georgia will "continue to stand firm" against the Russian aggressors, the president told the crowd.

He also announced that his country would leave the Commonwealth of Independent States, and urged Ukraine to follow suit.

"We have decided that Georgia will leave the CIS," he said. "We urge Ukraine and other countries to also leave the Commonwealth of Independent States, which is dominated by Russia."

Excluding Georgia, the CIS has 10 full members - Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, Russia, Tajikistan, Ukraine and Uzbekistan.

Saakashvili said Georgia now considers Russian troops in the South Ossetia and Abkhazia, Georgia's other rebel region, to be occupiers.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jester:

Just to 'review': this statement reported by the Russian state propaganda organ is meaningless.

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quote:

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Medvedev decides to end fighting.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said on Tuesday he decided to end the military operation “to compel Georgia to peace”, as the result has been achieved.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Since Beltov has decided to repeat from the last thread Russian pronouncements as if they are gospel, I'll repeat excerpts from the rest of the story.

quote:

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Medvedev's statement notwithstanding, Russia has not yet 'achieved all its goals'.

It remains to be seen if they have stopped attacks in Georgia. Even if they have, the Abkhazians have attacked the Georgian held enclave. On paper, Russian forces are not involved. If they are not now overtly and visibly taking part, that will only last if the Abkhazians succeed in doing most of the visible work of ejecting the Georgian forces.

...and...

Medvedev saying "Georgians returning to original positions" is an obfuscating gloss. Russia won't [nor should] allow the Georgians back into Ossetia that were there allowed there according to the peacekeeping agreements. But "original positions" does not include them staying in the Kordi Gorge of Abkhazia- where they will be expelled by Russia if need be.

---

I kind of liked the closing paragraph from Medvedev in the Tass mouthpiece Beltov linked to above:

quote:

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“I want to stress the high efficiency of actions of our enforced peacekeeping contingent, well coordinated operations of all the units. I would ask you to submit proposals on awarding state decorations to participants in the operation and extend my gratitude to them,” Medvedev told Serdyukov.

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quote:

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By the way Ken, it was 2,000 and not 1,000 combat troops brought back by the US to Georgia.

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quote:

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In his attempts to clamp down on pro-Russian South Ossetian separatists, Mr Saakashvili appears to have made one fundamental, disastrous miscalculation: that the Bush Administration and the West viewed their relationship with Georgia as more important than that with Russia.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RosaL:

Certainly it is a propaganda organ. But I don't trust it any less than privately owned propaganda organs.

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quote:

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Medvedev's statement notwithstanding, Russia has not yet 'achieved all its goals'.

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I assume that their ultimate goal is to install a puppet government in Georgia and for Georgia to be a "satellite" reminiscent of countries in the Warsaw Pact.

quote:

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

I assume that their ultimate goal is to install a puppet government in Georgia and for Georgia to be a "satellite" reminiscent of countries in the Warsaw Pact.

---

quote:

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Just to 'review': this statement reported by the Russian state propaganda organ is meaningless.

---

I dont think you understand that Russia doesnt like being seen weak, but at the same time would not risk obvious Western backlash in occupying a country. Their objectives of showing strength, protecting their allies and humiliating Georgia and US have all been accomplished. There is no longer need for fighting, unless Saakashvili pushes it.

quote:

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Sven: No one has answered this fundamental question: Has the U.N. been investigating claims of ethnic cleansing in South Ossetia?

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On the other (specific) thread on this topic I've noted the remarks about 150 investigators hired from the Russian Prosecutor's Office. I'd say they are collecting the evidence as we argue about it.

This is the dawning of the new,improved Russian superpower that Putin has pined for. While the Americans are engaged elsewhere and powerless to respond, Russia will invade its Caucasus neighbours to assuage the humility of their loss 20 years ago.

quote:

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Originally posted by jester:
Heres a more comprehensive analysis of tthe current situation.

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Do you take yourself seriously?

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

quote:

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Georgia is not guiltless: most Georgians I know care little about Ossetia even though it is part of sovereign Georgia. But in order to join Nato, President Saakashvili wanted to settle Georgia's instability by reclaiming Ossetia and Abkhazia. By seizing Tskhinvali, he took one hell of a gamble...

The retaking of Ossetia is a minor part of the Russian campaign. More significant is the attack on Georgia proper, which reasserts Russia's hegemony over the Caucasus, assuages the humiliations of the past 20 years, subverts Georgian democracy - and defies and defangs American superpowerdom. The swaggering arrival of Vladimir Putin, now the Prime Minister, across the border, macho in his tight jeans and white leather jacket, shows he, not President Medvedev, remains Russia's paramount leader.

...Russia both despises Western hypocrisy and craves Western approval.

---

quote:

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I assume that their ultimate goal is to install a puppet government in Georgia and for Georgia to be a "satellite" reminiscent of countries in the Warsaw Pact.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Sven:
No one has answered this fundamental question: Has the U.N. been investigating claims of ethnic cleansing in South Ossetia? I've not seen anything other than Russian and informal claims that there was ethnic cleansing.

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There is nothing remotely "progressive" about the current Russian regime - so i really don't see why anyone who considers themself "progressive" would want to be an apologist for the Putin regime.

quote:

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So, its OK for a superpower like Russia to throw its weight around and wantonly invade neighbouring countries...I wonder how many of you would be so "understanding" in the US decided to invade Cuba or Mexico.

---

No one said it is "OK" for Russia, no longer a superpower, to do anything. But surely you have apologized long and hard for US actions all over the globe. You even think it is about time Cuba lowered itself the Yankee yolk once more.

In fact, I'm surprised you aren't cheering Russia as they are behaving exactly like Americans. But it is the hypocrisy of your ideology that prevents you from standing up and cheering. Or, at least, that's what I think ...

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

quote:

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
On the other (specific) thread on this topic I've noted the remarks about 150 investigators hired from the Russian Prosecutor's Office. I'd say they are collecting the evidence as we argue about it.

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Like I said, I’ve seen nothing other than Russian claims of ethnic cleansing. If ethnic cleansing was occurring, one would think that there would be international organizations at least commenting on it!!

This is the fundamental issue because Russia’s essential justification for its action is that there was ethnic cleansing occurring in S.O.

Yet, we have several babblers leaping to Russia’s defense with nothing other than Russia’s claims.

quote:

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Originally posted by BetterRed:

How so, jester? Just because it's a Russian agency, its not to be trusted??
Well, from reviewing multiple international media, a ceasefire has seemed to be in operation over the past few hours.

I dont think you understand that Russia doesnt like being seen weak, but at the same time would not risk obvious Western backlash in occupying a country. Their objectives of showing strength, protecting their allies and humiliating Georgia and US have all been accomplished. There is no longer need for fighting, unless Saakashvili pushes it.

Oh and BTW, doesnt the phrase 'regime change' sound familiar?
If it does, its because it was already used before in similar circumstances, but not by Russia.

---

Its meaningless because this soothing spin contradicts itself. Ending hostilities means ending hostilities, not using phony 'threats' as an excuse to continue realising objectives.

Its just as meaningless as Saakshivili's 'ceasefire' while his troops shell the Russians.

quote:

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

There is nothing remotely "progressive" about the current Russian regime - so i really don't see why anyone who considers themself "progressive" would want to be an apologist for the Putin regime.

---

quote:

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ITAR/TASS: In 1999 western countries bombed former Yugoslavia to stop what they said was genocide of Kosovar Albanians and to oust President Slobodan Milosevic. Russia was angered, but did not interfere.

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The parallels with Serbia and Kosovo are very real. Just change the last sentence to include the full reality "Russia was angered, but impotent, so did not interfere." Then insert the US for the Georgia and Ossetia situation.

Fits like a glove.

The rest of the Tass gloss about it all being for the protection of civilians is pap.

quote:

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Originally posted by jester:
While the Americans are engaged elsewhere and powerless to respond, Russia will invade its Caucasus neighbours to assuage the humility of their loss 20 years ago.

While the US has squandered its deterrent capacity chasing goatherds around in ill-thought out invasions, the Russian Bear put some crafty plans in place with careful provocations designed to goad any action Russia could seize upon as a pretext for invasion of its former vassal states.

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This is just naïve.

quote:

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Originally posted by A_J:
The UNHCR is on the scene documenting the numbers of people displaced in both South Ossetia and Georgia, so I suppose that is a start, but I haven't heard of a formal investigation by the United Nations or any other independant third-party just yet. Hopefully that changes very soon.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

So, Jester, to you comprehensive means loaded with hyberbolic adjectives that says more about the analyst than the analysis?

Do you take yourself seriously?

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

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Never I'm just another amateur putting in his 2 cents. However, I do admit to trying to grasp the complexities of global tensions rather than freaking out and blaming the west in an orgy of unrestrained emotional innuendo.

C'mon, Jester, stop fooling yourself. In your transparent efforts to present yourself as "independent", you still manage to excuse every American excess while attacking any other excess. Get over yourself.

What we are witnessing is the exercise of global strategic politics and we are flies on the wall without the least amount of influence.

Real analysis looks at what's happening, the stakes, and the possible outcomes and isn't filled with lots of little and colorful adjectives to try and sway the readers mind one way or the other.

If that's what you're reading and regarding as analysis it is little wonder you lack any insight that isn't colored by some ideological lens.

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

Didnt you just see the confirmation that a ceasefire has been in effect?
Russia will not remove Saakashvili by force, unless he continues to provoke and bluster.

And as for nothing progressive - well during Putin's reign, the Western oil companies were shown the door, and the average Russian' standard of life has improved dramatically since Yeltsin days of happy-go-lucky robber barons.

Even now,For example, a US-type food stamps program for the poor have been adopted.
There is no doubt that the oligarchs and corruption are still very much a problem. Lack of democracy is still a problem.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sven:

This is just naïve.

Even if the Americans were not occupied in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Americans would not militarily respond to Russia’s actions, no more than the Russians or the Chinese would militarily react if the Americans militarily annexed B.C. and Alberta.

---

Naive huh?

Whats naive is American thinking that they could park their military and missile deterent ass on Russia's doorstep without incurring consequences.

Of course, as usual, the American stooges act as proxies and bear the consequences while the US mouths pieties and pretends to stop to tie their shoelace.

The upshot of this manoevre to try to gain military advantage from former Warsaw Pact states is that the Russian bear has rubbed the Eagle's beak in its own excement because the Us was not prepared to back up its BS.

quote:

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Originally posted by KenS:
I suppose that's what Russia is doing in Chechnya too: just protecting the civilians.

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quote:

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I wonder how many of you would be so "understanding" in the US decided to invade Cuba or Mexico.

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Cuba backs Russia

quote:

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"It's false that Georgia is defending its national sovereignty," (Raul) Castro said in the statement that appeared to reflect recent steps toward renewing Cuba-Russia relations.

"The request for a previous withdrawal of the invaders is just and our government supports it."

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Even Groznians like Putin for building up their country. Chechnya's economy is bustling since Islamic Gladios were swept away.

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quote:

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Originally posted by KenS:
There's more involved than big power and Islamic terrorist games Fidel. If you hadn't noticed there are some real people that live in Chechnya.

---

I'm not saying these things without sources. Several independent U.S. and Canadian commentators have stated that Islamic Gladio and terror in general are exactly what's been going on in Central Asia and Balkans since the 1980's proxy war in Afghanistan.

Please don't pull the humanitarian card on us now at this point. You're a bit late by about 30 years. What would the Yanks have said had the Soviets and Cubans, Chinese etc began interfering in western politics to the same degree? Blowback? Pfff!

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

I assume that their ultimate goal is to install a puppet government in Georgia and for Georgia to be a "satellite" reminiscent of countries in the Warsaw Pact.

We'll see how far they get.

---

quote:

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From the moment Georgia launched a surprise attack on the tiny breakaway region of South Ossetia last week, prompting a fierce Russian counterattack, Israel has been trying to distance itself from the conflict. This is understandable: with Georgian forces on the retreat, large numbers of civilians killed and injured, and Russia's fury unabated, Israel's deep involvement is severely embarrassing.

The collapse of the Georgian offensive represents not only a disaster for that country and its US-backed leaders, but another blow to the myth of Israel's military prestige and prowess. Worse, Israel fears that Russia could retaliate by stepping up its military assistance to Israel's adversaries including Iran.

---

Tel Aviv to Tbilisi: Israel's role in the Russia-Georgia war

Did anyone else hear GeeDubya shaking his little sabre for all he was worth yesterday?

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Papal Bull:

In my course of studying Russia and its culture I would have to say that I disagree with this statement. Chechens aren't happy at all with Putin for raining destruction upon them. Chechnya was a horrible, horrible war. And the Russians, like everyone else, were not angels. It was a war. Just like this one is.

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Fair enough, it was a brutal war. Bombing if Grozny was excessive. But may I remind you that in 1999, Chechen militant armies have attacked the Russian republic of Dagestan? That was the trigger for Putin;s iron-fisted response.

quote:

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KenS: I suppose that's what Russia is doing in Chechnya too: just protecting the civilians.

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Funny you should mention that ...

quote:

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Chechen fighters of the Russian army in South Ossetia. The Chechens are not anti-American, per CNN propaganda. Their grandfathers were heroes of the 2nd Great Patriotic War, and their great-grandfathers were heroes of World War I (the Savage Division, made up mainly of Chechen troopers, was the best Russian unit of that war). A proud tradition continues!

---

quote:

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It is hard to make forecasts in a constantly changing situation, but, from what information we have it seems that Russia’s main goal is to destroy Georgia’s military equipment and infrastructure, and deprive it of the ability to engage in active military operations. Russia is likely to continue bombing installations on Georgian territory, oust the Georgian troops from South Ossetia, and create a security belt around it, and around Abkhazia. At the same time, Russia will be limited in using heavy artillery for the reasons mentioned above. (mostly avoiding civilian casualties - N.Beltov)

It is clear that an anti-Russian coalition does not exist. The operation is likely to be completed in the next few days, after which talks will be resumed. The future of the Georgian leadership is the most interesting political issue. Some experts believe that Russia may demand extradition of some of the Georgian leaders for trial for war crimes. To sum up, Russia’s actions have been undoubtedly positive. It has demonstrated its readiness to use all means, including armed force, for the protection of its citizens and national interests.

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[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

The civilian suffering on both sides is horrendous and I don't hold with the "reap what they sow" position which suggests civilians (including children) of any side (usually oblivious to the backroom machinations of their "leaders") get what they deserve when their leaders criminal plans go wrong.
=====

"Reuters/Gleb Garanich

A Georgian refugee cries in Gori, about 50 miles from Tbilisi, Aug. 11, 2008.

Aug. 12, 2008 | TBILISI, Georgia -- Vaso Chlukhadze, 25, is one of hundreds of war refugees gathered outside the mayor's office in Tbilisi, Georgia. Chlukhadze has been waiting two days for a place to sleep. He fled South Ossetia after being forced from his home by Russian air raids. War has quickly escalated in this region since late last week, with Georgia agitating for greater control of disputed territory in the Caucasus, and Russia going aggressively on the attack with war planes, tanks and troops. Like many here directly in the middle of it and suffering the consequences, Chlukhadze blames Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili for the violence that left his family homeless.

"The [Georgian] government wasn't right. If they don't have enough force they shouldn't behave like this," he said.

quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
You call your input "restrained emotional innuendo"? Yeah, right.

C'mon, Jester, stop fooling yourself. In your transparent efforts to present yourself as "independent", you still manage to excuse every American excess while attacking any other excess. Get over yourself.

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

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Oh, really. Please provide evidence of "managing to excuse every American excess".

quote:

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Russians love Putin.

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quote:

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Oh, really. Please provide evidence of "managing to excuse every American excess".

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quote:

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Originally posted by guy cybershy:
[QB]I can't believe how one sided the BBC coverage is. Every time Saakashvili opens his mouth they report every word despite the fact he is quite obviously deranged.
/QB]

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quote:

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Sarkozy and Merkel are going to fall into line after being taken privately to the woodshed in Moscow. Unlike the USA, which has a penchant for publicly humiliating both its clients and partners, Moscow is going to do it outside of the glare of the cameras, saving the face of the Europeans. Repeat after me… GAZPROM.

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ahahahahaha ha!

quote:

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The US shall be abandoned by its European allies in this, just as they abandoned the US in its effort to force Georgia and the Ukraine into NATO. The events of the last weekend prove that not only the Saakashvili mob, but, the Ukraine as well, is not long for this world, an outcome that is going to improve world stability and peace. The US shall fuss, fume, and moan, but, it lacks the power, both militarily and financially, to intervene. The world shall be able to breathe much more easily once nationalistic fanatics such as Saakashvili and Yushchenko are removed from the scene.

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I'm not willing to share the assessment of Y. But the finish is great ...

quote:

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However… Saakashvili is a dead duck. His political opponents, of which there are not a few, shall topple him, kill him, or force him to flee. He has no support left, save in the halls of Foggy Bottom. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

---

quote:

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The Georgian Army was in complete disarray last night after troops and tanks fled the town of Gori in panic and abandoned it to the Russians without firing a shot ....

The retreat from Gori, the birthplace of Joseph Stalin, was as humiliating as it was sudden and dramatic. ... Jeeps and pick-up trucks filled with Georgian soldiers raced through the streets, their occupants frantically signalling to civilians that they too should flee. The road out of Gori towards Tbilisi was a scene of chaos and fear as cars jockeyed with tanks for a speedy escape.

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The Georgians responded, says the author, by more cowardly shelling of Ossetia ...

quote:

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The Russian attacks were met with Georgian artillery fire towards South Ossetia, despite President Saakashvili’s statement that he had called a ceasefire. Reporters later witnessed at least six Georgian helicopters attacking targets in South Ossetia.

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Gah.

The Editor finishes:

quote:

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There one has it. The Georgian forces are falling apart, a sign of low morale, poor training, and abysmal unit cohesion and motivation. in short, a force not worthy of NATO integration. Good thing it was found out now! No one wishes to die for the baby-faced killer with an American college education. He may very well try to flee the country, and if he does, he’ll end as a professor in some small liberal-arts college in the American hinterlands. Taking academic “office politics” into account, a fate worse than hanging! Sic semper tyrannis!

---

quote:

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Originally posted by guy cybershy:
It used to be NDP policy to pull us out of NATO. Does anyone know if that is still the case?

---

Updated Sun. May. 30 2004 12:38 AM ET

Canadian Press

TORONTO -- Security issues edged into the federal election campaign Saturday as Jack Layton brushed aside a long-held NDP policy that would pull Canada out of NATO, promising instead to work on changing the military alliance.
....
"NATO is an organization essentially of the past. We are going to work for the restructuring of organizations for the future.
People in NATO are already transforming it themselves.""

quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

You don't? Oh, my mistake. I guess it just seems that way.

---

Apology accepted although it is rather weasely.

Anyway, this just in:

quote:

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even as the Reagan administration condemned terrorism in the 1980s, it secretly armed the Nicaraguan contras who engaged in acts of terrorism inside Nicaragua. In 1990, when President George H.W. Bush denounced Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, everyone conveniently forgot that he had invaded Panama in 1989.

It has been as if the rules moved on separate tracks, one set for the United States and one set for everyone else - and it was impolite to notice.

Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, however, it has become harder to ignore Washington's double standards. Also, after the five-plus-year fiasco in Iraq, the Bush administration must confront both the limitations on its own imperial reach and the fact that it has done grave damage to the protocols of international behavior.

As Russia is now demonstrating in its conflict with Georgia, other big powers may want to play by the same do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do rules laid down by the United States.

It is a case of Washington, Bush and the neocons reaping what they have sown.

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quote:

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Originally posted by guy cybershy:
Now on NPR they are discussing whether we should have done more to support Georgia, "our beleagered democratic ally". What a crock of shit!

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quote:

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crock of shit!

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quote:

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Here's an amusing assessment from a Russian who seems to know what's what ....

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Who is it? Rather bang on,old stick.

In my amateur uninformed opinion, this is only the beginning of the humiliations US geoplitical asperations will face due more to a diminished capacity for financial reprisal than military.

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jester: Who is it? Rather bang on, old stick.

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http://02varvara.wordpress.com/

(Barbara-Marie Drezhlo)

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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Every time Saakashvili opens his mouth they report every word despite the fact he is quite obviously deranged.

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Some say the same thing about the leaders of Venezuela and Iran etc... At least Saakashvili was freely elected - more than you can say for a pseudo democracy like Russia where journalists who write articles criticizing Putin get murdered and where the entire mass media is pro-Putin without a single solitary critical voice.

I still can't fathom why people are trying to justify the Russian invasion of Georgia. If any other country in the world blatantly invaded another - you would all be calling for sanctions and reprisals etc...but for some reason Russia (in its current totally regressive, reaction form) is suddenly some sort of sacred cow.

is it that people are nostalgic for the USSR and have some kind of wistful fantasy that if Russia starts recapturing all the former Soviet socialist republics and reasserting itself as an imperialist super-power - before you know people will be singing the Internationale in Red Square again?

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

I still can't fathom why people are trying to justify the Russian invasion of Georgia.

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It is hard to make forecasts in a constantly changing situation, but, from what information we have it seems that Russia’s main goal is to destroy Georgia’s military equipment and infrastructure, and deprive it of the ability to engage in active military operations. Russia is likely to continue bombing installations on Georgian territory, oust the Georgian troops from South Ossetia, and create a security belt around it, and around Abkhazia. At the same time, Russia will be limited in using heavy artillery for the reasons mentioned above. (mostly avoiding civilian casualties - N.Beltov)

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How long will it take for observers critical of Russia's role here to notice that, although the Russians have their hand around the throat of Georgia - militarily speaking - they aren't squeezing? When the Russians slowly back off, as they surely will?

That is what I expect (and hope for). Saakashvili's plans for NATO membership, founded on the corpses of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, is finished. As the same commentator noted ....

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It is clear that an anti-Russian coalition does not exist. The operation is likely to be completed in the next few days, after which talks will be resumed. The future of the Georgian leadership is the most interesting political issue. Some experts believe that Russia may demand extradition of some of the Georgian leaders for trial for war crimes.

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Its funny how the Russians are all for secessionist movements in every country except their own.

If people think that little enclaves like Abhkazia and South Ossetia should secede from Georgia and join Russia - I'd love to hear reasons why if Quebec every voted Yes in a referendum to secede from Canada, every English-speaking or federalist municipality in Quebec shouldn't be free to secede from Quebec and join TROC.

Mind you, you might be a good satirist with your fine gift for exaggeration. Read some Swift and get back to me, eh?

Back to the topic of the thread. The French President has outlined a 6 point plan for peace:

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“The first principle – not to use force. The second – to definitively stop all military actions. The third – to provide free access to humanitarian aid. The fourth – Georgia’s armed forces must return to the places of their permanent deployment. The fifth – Russia’s armed forces will be withdrawn to the positions preceding the beginning of the military actions. The sixth – the start of the international discussion of issues of the future status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia by means of guaranteeing their solid security,” Medveded said.

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Russia ’s Foreign Minister, Sergei Lavrov, emphasized that the Georgian troops must return to their barracks.

“All the rest will have no point without this condition. South Ossetian residents will hardly understand that they can return and restore their homes without this condition. If Georgia does not accept this condition, we will be forced to take other measures not to let the current situation, which has been formed as a result of Georgia’s aggression, repeat itself. This is the absolute condition for everything else,” Lavrov said.

“The fact that the president of France has completely agreed with that is important. We hope that the president of France will inform the Georgian administration of these principles,” the Russian foreign minister said.

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Prevent them from doing the same thing again. Not to do harm. What's wrong with such principles? Don't medical doctors swear an oath to that effect?

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

Got anything to say about the 6 points for peace? What's the matter? Did the Russian cat get your tongue?

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Saakashvili may be fighting for something more important than South Ossetia. And sooner, rather than later

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

Its funny how the Russians are all for secessionist movements in every country except their own.

If people think that little enclaves like Abhkazia and South Ossetia should secede from Georgia and join Russia - I'd love to hear reasons why if Quebec every voted Yes in a referendum to secede from Canada, every English-speaking or federalist municipality in Quebec shouldn't be free to secede from Quebec and join TROC.

I can just imagine, the scenerio: Quebec declares its independence from Canada, then the Outaouais region of Quebec plus the whole western half of Montreal declares itself to be separate from Quebec and Canada insists that everyone there is still a Canadian citizen - then Quebec tries to reassert sovereignty over these areas that have always been within the historical boundaries of Quebec, then the Canadian government attacks Montreal and pushes Quebecois troops out and starts bombing Quebec City - then Canada and Quebec each compete to see who can be seen as the "victim" in the court of world opinion and there you have it.

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The second problem with your scenario is you forgot the part that after 10 years or so Quebec has decided to try to join the new Chinese lead Coalition of Nations and after receiving massive military aid from the Chinese and in fact after sending their own troops to put down insurgents in Tibet they decide to invade Hull and bomb all public facilities.

The passports of course is another issue. If the PQ were to win a referendum do you think that means the the 40% to 49% of the population that would have voted to remain Canadian would be instantly no longer citizens of Canada. I cannot see any Canadian government telling residents of Quebec that they are no longer entitled to a Canadian passport can you?

Interesting remarks.

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With today’s announcement of an end to Russia’s “peace enforcement operation” in South Ossetia, President Dmitri Medvedev has (just about) rescued Russia’s reputation and brought the world back from the brink of unthinkable geopolitical disaster. But, it was a close call, and could yet be reversed.

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Furthermore

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Militarily it is well within Russia’s means to completely destroy the Georgian forces and occupy the country, and that is a temptation that President Medvedev, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, and their generals must have been struggling with. It would once and for all re-establish Russia’s might (especially in the Caucasia), humiliate NATO, and probably be the end of Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili, who has been a constant irritant to the Kremlin since he came to power in 2004. They could even install a pro-Russian regime. No one, it seemed, was going to stop them.

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Yet it appears that Russia has backed off this scenario. The blogger attributes it, in part, to Putin's Orthodox religious views. But then, those are her views as well.

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

So, now the French President will do some shuttle diplomacy. Looks good.

What is Canada doing? Why, providing aid to the aggressor, that's what. And nothing for the victims in South Ossetia. But then, we have a Conservative government, don't we?

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International Co-Operation Minister Bev Oda announced Tuesday that Canada is contributing up to $1 million in aid to provide Georgians affected by the conflict with emergency medical care, safe water and other basic items such as blankets and clothing.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:

Yet it appears that Russia has backed off this scenario. The blogger attributes it, in part, to Putin's Orthodox religious views. But then, those are her views as well.

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ha! Would that the tsar's Orthodox religious views had restrained him.

ETA: Saakashvili, who no doubt also holds Orthodox religious views, is vowing revenge.

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

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What is Canada doing? Why, providing aid to the aggressor, that's what.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:

Yet it appears that Russia has backed off this scenario. The blogger attributes it, in part, to Putin's Orthodox religious views. But then, those are her views as well.

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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That damn Putin though is acting like he heads an independent country with national security interests. I am outraged at any world leader who doesn't say ready aye ready when George II the Leader of the World says jump.

Why hasn't the Russian bear overthrown the Georgian regime? They could have gotten rid of a big annoyance. Yet they haven't. This is going to drive the cold warriors mad with frothing foaming rage at a good war missed.

Maybe Fidel's remark yesterday about a flotilla of ships to attack Iran should be looked at more carefully. There's always Plan "B".

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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Why hasn't the Russian bear overthrown the Georgian regime? They could have gotten rid of a big annoyance. Yet they haven't.

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Let's get on our hands knees and express gratitude to the great compassion shown by Putin in not annhilating Georgia and wiping it off the face of the earth...while we're at it, should we also express gratitude to the US for its great "restraint" in not invading Cuba and for not invading Iran?? Let's also bow our heads in gratitude at the great humanitarians who govern Israel for their great restraint. If they wanted to, they could march to Beirut and occupy all of Lebanon - but out of the goodness of their hearts they didn't.

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The Kremlin must also be put on notice that its own prestige project -- the Sochi Olympics in 2014 -- will be affected by its behavior.

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... so the plan may very well be to sabotage the 2014 Sochi Olympics already.

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Stockholm: Tell me is "Beltov" a Russian name ... etc.

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Beltov is a pseudonym used by an historical figure to avoid the heavy hand of the censors of the Tsarist autocracy. The author found that his books were burned before they could be distributed. Why don't you look it up?

Back to the subject at hand. The Russians have made it clear that they will respect the wishes of the Ossets and Abkhazians, whatever those wishes are ...

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Can the Ossets and Abkhazians live within Georgia and do they want this? It’s the question to be put to them and they will give an unambiguous answer,” Medvedev said. “It is not for Russia or any other state to answer this question.

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Smarter than the average bear. Woo hoo!

Territorial Integrity - It's up to them, not us!

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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President Bush,

Why don’t you shut up? How do you account for the fact that among the Georgian soldiers fleeing the fighting yesterday you could clearly hear officers using American English giving orders to “Get back inside” and how do you account for the fact that there are reports of American soldiers among the Georgian casualties? Kinda odd, eh?

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Or this ...

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So, why don’t you shut up? Oh and by the way, send some more of your military advisors to Georgia, they are doing a sterling job. And they look all funny down the night sight, all green. Hahaha!

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The author suggests that the Russians look for WMDs ... in Tblisi. Just like in Iraq, etc.

However, it's good to see cooler heads prevail among the Russian leadership.

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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Can the Ossets and Abkhazians live within Georgia and do they want this? It’s the question to be put to them and they will give an unambiguous answer,” Medvedev said. “It is not for Russia or any other state to answer this question.

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I guess that means Medvedev supports letting Chechnya declare its independence from Moscow!!

I notice that Russia was more than happy to funnel arms to Serbia to help it prevent any secession by Kosovo etc...

Let's not delude ourselves - the Russian leadership doesn't give a damn about the poor South Ossetians, this is all just a pretext to interfere in the internal affairs of Georgia and to try to re-establish a "cordon sanitaire" of satellites around Russia like in the good old days of the USSR and the Warsaw Pact.

Does that mean that if anyone criticized Gordon campbell its all part of a neocon conspiracy to sabotage the vancouver Olympics?