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Author Topic: In Praise of Unruly Women
Critical Mass
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posted 22 July 2004 11:48 AM      Profile for Critical Mass        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Is anyone allowed to start a topic?

I liked this article from today: http://www.rabble.ca/link.shtml?x=33326

"The media don't know how to handle smart, accomplished, complex women. Judy Dean wasn't glamorous or supportive enough, Hillary was too smart and too strong and Teresa Kerry is too loose-lipped and too unpredictable"

Freaky: Teresa Kerry looks just like my wife, just a bit older, and people call my wife flaky too. Even got the big hair. Hurray for sexy unruly older women!


From: King & Bay (downtown Toronto) - I am King of the World!!! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 22 July 2004 12:39 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In praise of unruly hair! I am so sick of the onslaught on curly-kinky hair.

She does not look like an "older woman", though, she looks like a middle-aged woman. Her mum, if still alive, is an "older woman".

Though I am not going to waste too much worry on a ketchup heiress... At least she doesn't appear as brain-dead as Laura Bush.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass
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posted 22 July 2004 12:42 PM      Profile for Critical Mass        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Older than me.

At least she's got a mind. Why is this such a problem with the US media?


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Critical Mass
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posted 22 July 2004 12:43 PM      Profile for Critical Mass        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Double post.

[ 22 July 2004: Message edited by: Critical Mass ]


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jeff house
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posted 22 July 2004 12:43 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I am not going to waste too much worry on a ketchup heiress...

But Dijon Mustard heiresses are no better!


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Michelle
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posted 22 July 2004 01:36 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The whole "first lady" thing pisses me off anyhow. I don't take such a stupid, sexist institution seriously in the least.

Ooooh, look at Hilary, what a strong, smart First Lady she was. Oooh, Teresa Kerry is so unruly and complex, what a great role model she'll be as First Lady.

Whatever. I think it's pathetic that First Ladies are being held up as any kind of feminist role model whatsoever. I'll be respectful of the first First Lady who says, "This whole First Lady thing is anachronistic bullshit, it's a tradition that makes it harder for people to conceptualize a woman as president, and I'm not going to prop it up by simpering next to my husband and accepting an official title just because I happen to have a license to fuck the President."


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Critical Mass
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posted 22 July 2004 01:46 PM      Profile for Critical Mass        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I didn't see the First Lady angle - I was more intrigued by what the writer said about how the US papers treat smart women in politics.

P.S. You need a licence to fuck the President? So that's what the Lewinsky scandal was about: she didn't have a licence!


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Michelle
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posted 22 July 2004 01:49 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I know what you mean.

But that's what ticks me off, is the assumption that these women are "in politics". Laura Bush isn't "in politics". She has an unearned title because she's riding on the coattails of hubby, and her qualification for the job is that she happened to catch the right man, who made it to the top.

It's just one of my pet peeves, I guess.


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Melsky
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posted 22 July 2004 01:59 PM      Profile for Melsky   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The "first lady" thing bugs me too, and that people view her as part of the presidential package. (no pun intended)

Do you remember when Laura Bush was going to work tirelessly for the repressed women of Afganistan? Whatever happened to that?


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Critical Mass
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posted 22 July 2004 02:09 PM      Profile for Critical Mass        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Heehee. Just realized I have inadvertently characterized the Critical Mrs. as being "unruly"... (Ouch! Stop pinching me! Didn't mean it! Yes, you look very alluring and sexy with your big Texas hair, dear, oww!)

Seriously, if the US media deals with the "political wives" this way, won't they deal with women candidates and women officials this way?


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exiled armadillo
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posted 23 July 2004 11:05 PM      Profile for exiled armadillo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But they do deal with political women this way. Some NDP guy came out saying that the worst thing he could say about Carol James was that she needed a new blazer jacket because hers looked bad (like it was bought at K-mart or something). But I figured if that was the worst he could say about her that was good indeed!
From: Politicians and diapers should be changed frequently and for the same reason | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 23 July 2004 11:15 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
CM, the sooner Americans stop expecting women married to politicians to play "political wife" roles, the sooner Americans will stop treating women in politics (that is, the women who are involved autonomously, not because they're screwing the guy who got elected) the way they treat "political wives".

[ 23 July 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


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Baldfresh
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posted 23 July 2004 11:39 PM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Ooooh, look at Hilary, what a strong, smart First Lady she was

Hilary was more prez than Bill was. He was "first gentleman"


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Diva_77
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posted 24 July 2004 02:29 PM      Profile for Diva_77   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I admire Hillary Clinton. At first, I though that she should have dumped her husband for his philandering, but she is a smart cookie and staying with him seemed to be more empowering to her. I saw a recent interview with her on TV and I think she is role model material.
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faith
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posted 24 July 2004 02:41 PM      Profile for faith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree that women have an especially difficult time in politics in general but particularly in US politics.
There is an anti-intellectual bias in the US towards politicos no matter what their gender though. I have heard it said that Adlai Stevenson ( sp?) lost simply because he was too intelligent. I don't know whether this is true but the presidents that have been elected within my politically aware memory seem to be painfully under qualified to be leaders of the Western World. I mean I've heard Ronald Regan's presidency described as brilliant .
The folksy good ole boy routine seems to be preferred over someone who can match wits with other world leaders on a global stage.
Hilary just scares the pants off these guys.

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Trisha
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posted 24 July 2004 02:58 PM      Profile for Trisha     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Behind every strong man, there is a stronger woman kicking him in the pants.
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Hailey
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posted 24 July 2004 04:32 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't see anything wrong with being a first lady. I think we are intended to be helpmeet's to our partners. There is nothing belittling or negative about that. It's the way things are intended to be.

I think that the person who is married to the president, however, needs to be cognizant that they are not the elected person. They are the *spouse* of the elected person. Their role is valuable but unelected and therefore has natural limitations to i t.

Mrs. Clinton in my view didn't understand the boundaries of her role and often forgot that she was in an unelected role that was secondary to the President. She also got put in roles and positions strictly because of her relationship with him as opposed to being the best candidate. She didn't succeed in those roles either.

I was disappointed that she didn't dump his ass on national tv after he cheated. I'd have made "Newsmaker of the year" when they handed me the microphone after his announcement of cheating. I wouldn't have stood in the background clapping and playing the wifely role. That isnt' within me.


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shannifromregina
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posted 24 July 2004 04:32 PM      Profile for shannifromregina     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hilary Clinton a good role model? Maybe in politics but as a wife she totally sucks what she has proven is if your husband is in power and has affairs, hey stick buy him. I could really see if it was the first time he got caught but come on how many were there? Alot. What she says to married women is basically you put up with men's crap. I would have had more respect for her if she had moved out and not stayed married in name only. We all know they aren't really married anymore just when the camera's need a good photo op. I would have more respect for her if she called her realtionship what it really is, over.
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Hailey
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posted 24 July 2004 04:38 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[QUOTE] Hilary Clinton a good role model? Maybe in politics but as a wife she totally sucks what she has proven is if your husband is in power and has affairs, hey stick buy him. I could really see if it was the first time he got caught but come on how many were there? I would have had more respect for her if she had moved out and not stayed married in name only. /QUOTE]

I agree. I'd have kicked the crap out of him on national television.


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skdadl
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posted 24 July 2004 04:54 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have no time for either of the Clintons, but that's because of their politics.

I cannot fathom why anyone ponders their marriage. Marriages are imponderable. We can never know, and now that they've both produced transparently dishonest, superficial memoirs (political, too! big surprise!), we know for sure that we will never know. Tant pis. I mean, really.

I'm ashamed that I've forgotten Dean's wife's name, but she seemed to me to be taking the intelligent Canadian position -- ie, she just plain didn't believe much in First Wifery. It is, of course, impossible to take such a position in the U.S. and survive politically.

But she sounded like a real human bean to me.


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Michelle
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posted 24 July 2004 04:56 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by shannifromregina:
I could really see if it was the first time he got caught but come on how many were there? Alot.

Maybe they had an "understanding". One which, for obvious reasons, they couldn't share with the American public.


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Anchoress
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posted 24 July 2004 07:37 PM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by shannifromregina:
Hilary Clinton a good role model? Maybe in politics but as a wife she totally sucks what she has proven is if your husband is in power and has affairs, hey stick buy him. I could really see if it was the first time he got caught but come on how many were there? Alot. What she says to married women is basically you put up with men's crap. I would have had more respect for her if she had moved out and not stayed married in name only. We all know they aren't really married anymore just when the camera's need a good photo op. I would have more respect for her if she called her realtionship what it really is, over.


I think she's a good role model for smart, ambitious women. Here's the thing: I think that if she'd dumped Bill or denounced him, she wouldn't be a senator right now. She earned *mondo* points from the American electorate for standing by him - if she ends up back in the White House one day (which everyone knows is her ambition), it'll be in part because of the way she handled the Lewinsky affair.

IMO it's a triumph of goals over emotions. Not everyone's cup of tea, but when you're aiming that high, a necessity.


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Hailey
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posted 24 July 2004 07:41 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I think she's a good role model for smart, ambitious women... I think that if she'd dumped Bill or denounced him, she wouldn't be a senator right now. She earned *mondo* points from the American electorate for standing by him - if she ends up back in the White House one day (which everyone knows is her ambition), it'll be in part because of the way she handled the Lewinsky affair.

Yes, when she was independent and self directed she had a low level of popularity but when she sucked it up and "stood by her man" the public loved her. She responded in a traditional, demure, passive way and that earned the favor of the public. I would rather have swallowed my tongue than sacrificed that much of my character. I'm glad to know that there is Mrs. Clinton is nothing better than a windup doll and that she chose to show that to her daughter.


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josh
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posted 24 July 2004 08:06 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:


Maybe they had an "understanding". One which, for obvious reasons, they couldn't share with the American public.


In their famous 60 Minutes interview after the Gennifer Flowers thing broke, she denied they had any such "arrangement." And from everything I've read, as incredible as it may seem, she believed his denials regarding Monica Lewinsky up until the day had to confess the truth. So I suspect it was more looking the other way, and hoping for the best, than any understanding. Actually, I think Emma Thompson's portrayal in Primary Colors may be close to the mark.


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tully s
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posted 25 July 2004 01:25 PM      Profile for tully s        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
are we forgetting that rumours had it that Hilary had cheated on Bill too? remeber Vince Foster?? so an agreement seems reasonable. i wouldn't have stuck around. but it is a matter of priorities. it is true that she couldn't expect the career she has now if she dropped him. that tells us what is more important in Hilary's world
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Hailey
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posted 25 July 2004 01:41 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
are we forgetting that rumours had it that Hilary had cheated on Bill too? remeber Vince Foster?? so an agreement seems reasonable. i wouldn't have stuck around. but it is a matter of priorities. it is true that she couldn't expect the career she has now if she dropped him. that tells us what is more important in Hilary's world

Lets underscore the words rumours here. I doubt them actually.

As well, I don't respect "agreements".

I think it shows significant character flaws that she chose a job over her own personal dignity and her obligations to her daughter.


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skdadl
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posted 25 July 2004 02:09 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I think it shows significant character flaws that she chose a job over her own personal dignity and her obligations to her daughter.

I think it shows significant character flaws that anyone would presume to pass absolute judgements of that sort on human persons that she has not even met.

Excuse me, people, but I am having a little difficulty believing that our Feminism Forum has turned into a tabloid gossip column.


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shannifromregina
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posted 25 July 2004 02:29 PM      Profile for shannifromregina     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Tabloid gossip columns are very interesting and entertaining.
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Hailey
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posted 25 July 2004 02:34 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I think it shows significant character flaws that anyone would presume to pass absolute judgements of that sort on human persons that she has not even met. Excuse me, people, but I am having a little difficulty believing that our Feminism Forum has turned into a tabloid gossip column.

I look forward to you giving the same developmental feedback to people who are criticizing Stephen Harper, Stockwell Day, Peter McKay and such when they have not met him. I am sure that you value consistency in your work as a moderator.

As well, I am not the person that suggested that Hilary Clinton had engaged in adultery with another man and violated her marriage vows. That was brought forward by someone else and I emphasized that I didn't believe in it when I replied.


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Puetski Murder
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posted 25 July 2004 08:36 PM      Profile for Puetski Murder     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I think we are intended to be helpmeet's to our partners. There is nothing belittling or negative about that. It's the way things are intended to be.

Ew! Yes there is! Especially when one side is socially obligated to it. This is what is objectionable about the position of First Lady. There is a high status political position carved out for the female mate of the leading male. How very Discover Channel Ape Society Week. I can see already that we're not going to agree on this.

BTW, "Lisence to Fuck" should be on a T-Shirt.


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James
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posted 25 July 2004 09:21 PM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hailey:

I think it shows significant character flaws that she chose a job over her own personal dignity and her obligations to her daughter.[/QB]


Excuse me Hailey, but I quite miss your points.

"job over dignity" ? I presume her job as a U.S. Senator. Please explain how that job in any way diminishes her "personal dignity".

"obligations to her daughter" ? If I am not mistaken, their daughter was an adult and well established in her university education when Hillary ran for her present position. Please explain your misgivings.


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Michelle
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posted 25 July 2004 09:43 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Did President Clinton choose his job over his obligations to his daughter?
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Anchoress
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posted 25 July 2004 10:01 PM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I understood Hailey's original post to mean that by accepting Bill's infidelities seemingly without protest (at the time of the Lewinskygate scandal), Hilary was letting her daughter down by providing a bad moral role model.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't take Hailey's post to mean that Hilary was letting her daughter down by becoming a senator - but that the sacrifices she made morally to position herself to become a senator *did* let her daughter down.

Edited to correct confusing pronouns.

[ 25 July 2004: Message edited by: Anchoress ]


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Hailey
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posted 25 July 2004 10:09 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Ew! Yes there is!
as said by Peutski murder:

Well, if you feel it is a great evil then you have the right to decide that for your life. I don't believe you have the right to mock other women who choose to be a helpmeet.

James you said:

quote:
"job over dignity" ?...Please explain how that job in any way diminishes her "personal dignity".

"obligations to her daughter" ? If I am not mistaken, their daughter was an adult and well established in her university education when Hillary ran for her present position. Please explain your misgivings.


There is nothing undignified about the position of US senator. There were some persons here who suggested that she had tolerated adultery and mistreatment in order to reach these career aspirations. If that is true then I think she sacrificed her personal dignity which to me is too high a price for any job. I'd have lashed out at him on national television.

Further, I am not suggesting that Mrs. Clinton neglected her daughter's needs. From most accounts she was a very involved active parent throughout Chelsea's childhood and adolescence. I think, however, she had an obligation to role model to her daughter that women do not need to accept abuse or mistreatment from their husbands and should deal effectively with same. To stand beside your husband who is a serial adulterer clapping soundly and doing the Tammy Wynette "stand by your man" routine is not a positive example to her daughter.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 25 July 2004 10:20 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I think, however, she had an obligation to role model to her daughter that women do not need to accept abuse or mistreatment from their husbands and should deal effectively with same. To stand beside your husband who is a serial adulterer clapping soundly and doing the Tammy Wynette "stand by your man" routine is not a positive example to her daughter

Excuse me, but what do you know about what exactly transpired between Hilary Clinton and her daughther? Do you have any understanding of how people in the public spotlight have to express themselves, as opposed to what they actually say and do in their private lives? No, you don't. You just have this burning need to pass judgement on the "correctness" of what other people do.

What a surprise!


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Hailey
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posted 25 July 2004 10:29 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Excuse me, but what do you know about what exactly transpired between Hilary Clinton and her daughther? Do you have any understanding of how people in the public spotlight have to express themselves, as opposed to what they actually say and do in their private lives? No, you don't. You just have this burning need to pass judgement on the "correctness" of what other people do.

What a surprise!


It's very possible that she might have said. "It's not REALLY okay that your daddy whores around with subordinate employees but mommy wants an important job one day .....so we have to play pretend....smile pretty for the camera and clap really hard whenever mommy does!"

As well, the woman was first lady for 8 years, was a very outspoken involved first lady who headed committees and took a forceful role, she remained in public life as a senator after that role ended, has given media interviews which have discussed her husband's adultery, and has written a book which devotes a full chapter to coping with adultery. Surely, you are not suggesting she objects to people forming an opinion on her as a public figure? If she did, she'd step out of the limelight.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 25 July 2004 10:32 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maybe Hillary wasn't abused or mistreated. Maybe she and Bill had an open marriage, which they cannot tell the rest of the world about, but that perhaps they've talked to Chelsea about. In which case, Hillary wouldn't be a poor role model at all, just someone who is having a non-mainstream kind of marriage (although I'm willing to bet "open marriages" or similar arrangements are more common than people think).

Maybe Bill and Hillary are great friends as well as marriage partners, and they can handle other sexual partners. Who knows?


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Hinterland
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posted 25 July 2004 10:39 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
It's not REALLY okay that your daddy whores around with subordinate employees but mommy wants an important job one day .....so we have to play pretend....smile pretty for the camera and clap really hard whenever mommy does

Yes, I'm sure that's what Hilary said. Again, how do you know what happened?

quote:
Surely, you are not suggesting she objects to people forming an opinion on her as a public figure? If she did, she'd step out of the limelight

Did I say anything about Hilary objecting to anything? What an odd comment.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 25 July 2004 11:42 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Maybe Hillary wasn't abused... Maybe she and Bill had an open marriage....In which case, Hillary wouldn't be a poor role model at all, just someone who is having a non-mainstream kind of marriage Who knows?

To believe that you would have to believe she has thematically lied to the country both orally and in writing.


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Michelle
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posted 25 July 2004 11:54 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's none of the country's business whether she had an open marriage or not. And she's smart enough to know that the moral majority and Fuckus on the Family lunatics would have a field day with it if she were to go public with an open marriage, if that's what she and Bill have.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 25 July 2004 11:55 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
To some extent I agree but she wrote a book - specifically went out of her way - to say otherwise.
From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 25 July 2004 11:58 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh - I must have missed that part.

How did she say they overcame it?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 26 July 2004 02:39 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"I never loved Eva Braun".
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 26 July 2004 11:42 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I think we are intended to be helpmeet's to our partners. There is nothing belittling or negative about that. It's the way things are intended to be.

Using the Bible as the authority for ones arguments has been disreputable since Spinoza (1680).

That is because he showed that Biblical pronouncements about social relations simply reflected local practices at the time of composition.

The fact that women had to be a "helpmeet" in 400 BC should not convince in 2004.
---
The comment proceeds from this formula:

"God's intentions are...."

Outside of Al-Quaeda, this method of argumentation has lost favour, too. You see, no one here believes you or Osama have a pipeline to God. We prefers REASONS, because these allow thought and consideration of your ideas by others.

Just claiming you believe it is "intended to be" such and such is a way of short-circuiting thought. My grandmother used to say: "If God intended men to fly, he would have given them wings." Your comment has similar characteristics, including the fact that it will be left behind as society develops. You may be left behind, too.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 26 July 2004 12:08 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I look forward to you giving the same developmental feedback to people who are criticizing Stephen Harper, Stockwell Day, Peter McKay and such when they have not met him. I am sure that you value consistency in your work as a moderator.

Excuse moi?

The people on this board who criticize political figures of all stripes (and you should hear the mean things we all say about Bob Rae) are criticizing them, legitimately, for the way that they perform in their public roles, as politicians.

Whenever anyone has erred and got personal about any of those guys you name -- when people have commented on Harper's avoirdupois, for instance -- some of us have come along to stop the mocking.

(Well, most of the time. We all know that it's wrong. Don't we.)

I agree with you that Ms Clinton has been stupid, in the same way that Jason Kenney has been stupid, in making her private life -- or some fantasy version of her private life -- public. She could and should, in my view, have been more principled. She could have stood up to all the public pressure and refused to pretend that she is a cookie-baking wifey. It is entirely possible that her husband would have lost both of his elections if she hadn't knuckled under to middle-American sociopathology; it was a hard situation for her to be in, and she chose the path I would have rejected, but then I'm not her.

None of us is being forced to be stupid in the way that Ms Clinton or Mr Kenney -- or Mr Clinton, for that matter -- has been. We don't have to contribute to the destruction of democracy by fuzzing the clear lines between public and private, or state and church, or state and government. We don't have to help sentimentality and flabby-mindedness proliferate.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 26 July 2004 01:04 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
We don't have to contribute to the destruction of democracy by fuzzing the clear lines between public and private, or state and church, or state and government.

That's right. Babblers have far too much respect for this vital concept to ever, say, start thread after thread about some politician's actions while out of office on a personal vacation, or speculate at every possible opportunity that a politician might be drunk. What they do while in office is certainly fair game, but their private lives are, as Skdadl says, strictly off limits, no exceptions.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 26 July 2004 01:12 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mr Magoo, I catch your drift, but every time I have seen that kind of shit happening, I have spoken against it.

I don't think that fat jokes or drunk jokes are funny. I will defend Ralphie and (who is the BC guy? -- oh, that's right: he's a Campbell, and our clan really doesn't have much time for the Campbells, I gotta tell you) against the cheap shots over their drinking any time you like. Just call me.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 26 July 2004 01:25 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Absolutely. You and a few others. But when an unpopular politician pulls a stunt in private life then you're swimming upstream against the masses that want to revel and delight in their mistake, even if that mistake is clearly part of their private life, made on their own time. In the battle between "principles" and "scoring some quick points", the points overall seem to be winning.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 26 July 2004 01:35 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But so! Mr Magoo! That's why you and I are here, no?

And was that not the point of my reply to Hailey? Was I not doing my wee best to stem the tabloid tide?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2776

posted 26 July 2004 02:03 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Did President Clinton choose his job over his obligations to his daughter?

Which "job"?

quote:
I don't see anything wrong with being a first lady. I think we are intended to be helpmeet's to our partners. There is nothing belittling or negative about that. It's the way things are intended to be.

Intended by whom?

[ 26 July 2004: Message edited by: black_dog ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 26 July 2004 02:33 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Y'know... them.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 26 July 2004 02:56 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Them... such a good word. It reminds me of a poem.
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 26 July 2004 03:02 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

It's very possible that she might have said. "It's not REALLY okay that your daddy whores around with subordinate employees but mommy wants an important job one day .....so we have to play pretend....smile pretty for the camera and clap really hard whenever mommy does!"

That's a private matter between her and her daughter. Just because she's a public figure doesn't mean she has to handle every personal matter in what you might consider a politically correct way. How people, even public figures, handle these matters as it relates to the confines of the family unit is nobody's business.


quote:

As well, I don't respect "agreements".

Who cares if you "respect" them. That's a matter between the spouses involved.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6438

posted 27 July 2004 12:04 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
That's a private matter between her and her daughter. Just because she's a public figure doesn't mean she has to handle every personal matter in what you might consider a politically correct way. How people, even public figures, handle these matters as it relates to the confines of the family unit is nobody's business.

Josh, I believe the fact that the first lady has had several television interviews and written a book that is inclusive of this subject suggests that she feels it is not a matter of "nobody's business" as she has shared it with the global village.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 27 July 2004 12:22 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Okay, let's say she really didn't know, and that there's no "arrangement", and that she is completely telling the truth when she says she was devastated by the knowledge and that they're both trying to put their marriage back together again.

I don't really see the problem with that either, if that's the case. Maybe they really feel that it's the "Christian thing" to forgive. Maybe they're really close friends as well as marriage partners. Maybe they really love each other and they really want to stay married.

It's all fine and dandy for us to say, "If my husband cheated on me, I'd kick him to the curb!" But some marriages do survive infidelity. And it's a huge thing that has happened to her, very publicly too, so it's probably on her mind a lot. Why shouldn't she write about it?

Why would we think it's a bad role model for people to forgive their spouses for doing bad things to them? There are lots of ways to betray a spouse beyond having sex with someone else, and some marriages overcome that.

Hillary had to react somehow publicly since the whole thing was played out in the press. Why assume she just stayed for political reasons? After all, everyone would have understood and no one would have faulted her for leaving him, even the real fundies, so it's not like it would have killed her political career to divorce him.

So obviously there must be some reason she stayed. Maybe because there is genuine affection and love between them. Or maybe as a partnership with an agreement regarding others. Or maybe they really think they've got something special. Who knows?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
steffie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3826

posted 27 July 2004 12:25 AM      Profile for steffie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
it's a huge thing that has happened to her, very publicly too, so it's probably on her mind a lot. Why shouldn't she write about it?

Right, and by "sharing it with the global village", does she invite or deserve criticism? Surely that's not why she wrote the book: "Well, world, have at me! I'm all yours!"

She spoke impressively tonight. And she and Bill seem genuine friends.


From: What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish? | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 27 July 2004 12:32 AM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I hate when infidelity is seen as the absolute barometer of a healthy relationship. Rather than, I dunno, your partner belittling you in public, or voting Conservative or something.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 27 July 2004 12:36 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Also, it's not like infidelity happens in a vacuum. Generally infidelity is a symptom, not a cause, of a marriage going south, I think. Maybe there were things both partners were doing wrong, and Bill's "wrong thing" just happened to be publicized, and Hillary's wasn't. I've rarely seen a case where a bad marriage was all one person's fault, even in cases of infidelity.

Well, except mine. My marital breakdown was all his fault. (Kidding, kidding.)


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Malek
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6497

posted 27 July 2004 01:55 AM      Profile for Malek     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Does anyone have a definitive on what feminism means. Is it too broad (no pun intended) of a topic to fit into a neat bundle, or does it defy sterotype.
From: Upper Canada | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 27 July 2004 02:04 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In short, Malek, yes and no.

Y'see, the thing is, women have this distressing tendency to remain convinced that they are fully human, in spite of the systems that have historically been imposed on them -- and in many places, still are today! -- in just about any culture you'd care to mention.

So in those few places -- and luckily, we-all seem to be in one -- where women have managed to bang their heads against enough ceilings to get a little breathing space, what do women do with their new-found freedom and independence, the wee tiny bits of it that they've got?

Well, we argue about it.

We try to figure out what it does and could mean. We are often quite hard on one another about it ... right up to the point when someone who thinks that female independence is funny/offensive/fill in the blanks comes along.

And then we unite.

Grr.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Malek
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6497

posted 27 July 2004 02:23 AM      Profile for Malek     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
In short, Malek, yes and no.

Ok, I think I've got a handle on it now...


From: Upper Canada | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 27 July 2004 02:27 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Gee, that was easy.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Malek
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6497

posted 27 July 2004 02:28 AM      Profile for Malek     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
BTW skdadl, I had no idea you were some kind of honcho around here the other day when we were discussing babble as a forum on another thread.
From: Upper Canada | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 27 July 2004 02:36 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Malek: I AM NOT A HONCHO!!!

It's a joke! Calling me a moderator -- of the one forum that never never never becomes controversial -- it's audra's little joke! And even then, I'm only a co-moderator!

Forgive the caps above, but this is beginning to get to me. I am a really nice person. I have been around babble for a long time, but I have NO POWERS. Well, almost none. But people are writing to me all the time. I can tell that I scare them. And that makes me feel so awful. I can't tell you.

And then some of them think that I can do things that only audra can do. I have been trying to stop people from thinking all these things, but ...

Sheesh. I am just skdadl. skdadl plain, no powers. Well, hardly any.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 27 July 2004 02:38 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ah, heavy is the head that wears the crown.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 27 July 2004 02:39 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mr Magoo, what are you doing up at this hour?

What am I doing up at this hour?

What are we doing up at this hour? I ask you?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Malek
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6497

posted 27 July 2004 02:40 AM      Profile for Malek     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ok, so I don't feel bad then about not being deferrential the other day. But you have some power all the same.
From: Upper Canada | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Malek
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6497

posted 27 July 2004 02:41 AM      Profile for Malek     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There should be a thread called 'Insominacs Corner'
From: Upper Canada | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 27 July 2004 02:43 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Only if you post to a thread in Out and About (see forum below).

Should you choose to do that, I could enter your posts and wreak havoc.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 27 July 2004 02:45 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I never have insomnia. I get up at 5 a.m., so I am usually asleep by 9.

But tonight I watched the DNC, and I am feeling some turmoil. The world bothers me. There you go.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276

posted 27 July 2004 02:52 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Puetski Murder:
. . what is objectionable about the position of First Lady. There is a high status political position carved out for the female mate of the leading male.

But only in the USA. Which reflects their confusion between the role of head of state and head of government. Thanks heavens for our Governor-General. (Skdadl would make a good successor. No power, but lots of respect. )


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
shannifromregina
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6486

posted 27 July 2004 02:53 AM      Profile for shannifromregina     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Isomnaics need our own forum. I would join for sure if you guys can read my typing really crappy when i get tired and then my long and boring speeches make no sense
From: regina | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 27 July 2004 02:58 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wilfred! What are you doing up at this hour!
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276

posted 27 July 2004 03:07 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, the truth is, either I woke up from a dream that I was Ralston Saul, or I'm catching up on my e-mail after being in the Kawarthas for a week. As you choose to believe. (And anyway there are no absolute truths, including this sentence.)
From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 27 July 2004 03:17 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I swear: I finish this cigarette, and the kitties and moi are bedding down.

I hate American TV. I haven't watched it in years. But I made the mistake tonight. I watched it. Once started, I could not stop.

There is something really wonderful and also dreadful about that culture. They do some things so incredibly well. Surfaces.

Maybe it's no different from the English, still singing "Land of Hope and Glory" at the Albert Hall every year as they sway about in their funny hats. Maybe a century from now, the USian rituals will look like that does now -- pretty, but dated and sad.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6438

posted 27 July 2004 03:55 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think everyone has insomnia tonight. A little one passed away at work today and I can't get that quite off my mind and I've been writing my vows for the umpteenth time tonight. It's nice to know I'm not alone being up late.
From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6438

posted 27 July 2004 04:03 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I already lied, I said I wouldn't post on the feminist section. I wasn't paying attention to the section just the topic, sorry.
From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Socrates
sock-puppet
Babbler # 6376

posted 27 July 2004 04:03 AM      Profile for Socrates   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
By Skdadl:
quote:
I am a really nice person.

WELL, *HUMPH* If you do say so yourself!

Yeah sure, soon as I finish this cigarette I'm off to bed too, or maybe I'll read one more thread......

'night Skdadl


From: Viva Sandinismo! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Socrates
sock-puppet
Babbler # 6376

posted 27 July 2004 04:09 AM      Profile for Socrates   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Open marriage?

was that the sound of Hailey's head exploding I just heard?


From: Viva Sandinismo! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 27 July 2004 04:42 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hailey:

Josh, I believe the fact that the first lady has had several television interviews and written a book that is inclusive of this subject suggests that she feels it is not a matter of "nobody's business" as she has shared it with the global village.


She wrote a book on infidelity? That's news to me. That she gave television interviews that is "inclusive of this subject" doesn't mean she totally waived her right to to privacy on this intimate personal matter. Maybe in Puritanville, North America this is a matter of great concern, but in most of the rest of the world people don't care what arrangements goes on in the private lives of politicians.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6438

posted 27 July 2004 04:52 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
post deleted.

[ 27 July 2004: Message edited by: Hailey ]


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
steffie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3826

posted 27 July 2004 10:09 AM      Profile for steffie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I AM NOT A HONCHO!!!

Honchess?

I think think that ALL folks deserve respect, not just those who we perceive to have power.

P.S. skdadl, I think you described the frustrations within feminism quite succinctly. Especially for 2 am.

[ 27 July 2004: Message edited by: steffie_slick ]


From: What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish? | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 27 July 2004 12:13 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfred Day:
But only in the USA. Which reflects their confusion between the role of head of state and head of government. Thanks heavens for our Governor-General. (Skdadl would make a good successor. No power, but lots of respect. )

I thank nobody for the monarchy or any of its trappings. It should be abolished.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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