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The former head of China’s top food and drug safety agency was sentenced to death today after pleading guilty to corruption and accepting bribes, according to the state-controlled news media.

Zheng Xiaoyu, who served as director of China’s Food & Drug Administration from its founding in 1998 until mid 2005, was detained in February as part of a government investigation into the agency that is supposed to be the nation’s food and drug watchdog.

Two other top agency officials were also detained in February.

The unusually harsh sentence for the former director comes at a time of heightened concerns about the quality and safety of China’s food and drug system after a series of scandals involving tainted food and phony drugs.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
But China is a leftwing country! Aren't they supposed to all be "soft on crime"???

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I don't believe that people should be punished if they can be rehabilitated.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

So, I take that as meaning that you don't think Conrad Black should be punished, since i'm sure he can be rehabilitated and is unlikely to re-offend.

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There's also a huge citizen-run democracy movement in China as well, which I'm sure most here are aware of.

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Originally posted by Caissa:
And babble would be shut down as a treasonous site...

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The reality is that access to the internet can be controlled in many ways. For example, what rules prevent the police from seizing your computer, or having access to a server to check and see what you have been up to?

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Originally posted by jeff house:
Oh yes, if Rabble is accessible from China, that means that they would tolerate it if it were INSIDE China.

The reality is that access to the internet can be controlled in many ways.

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Did you know that it was companies like Nortel which sold them the technology to monitor the internet the way they do in China ?. Jeff, the Stasi would have been envious of our own federal WireTap laws in Canada and in full compliance with the U.S. shadow government and FBI's desire to spy on North Americans. It wasn't "private enterprise" that created the internet, it was DARPA and the shadow guv's handoff of publicly-funded and owned technology to a few dozen rich families and corporations now referred to as private enterprise and "the market." Howard Hughes had a string of incredible luck with securing government contracts. And in the end, the Mormons said he was only worth $4 million bucks?. Venezuelan's still don't trust the seventh day adventists in that country.

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Many times, people who support countries like China do so because they cannot imagine how carefully EVERYTHING is monitored.

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The U.S.A., the country with the largest gulag population in the world bar none, is unrivalled for spying on its own citizens, Jeff. Jeez, they can be harassed by the polizia for even wearing an anti-Dubya T-Shirt down there. That's what I call a repressive-conservative nanny state.

[ 29 May 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:
There's also a huge citizen-run democracy movement in China as well, which I'm sure most here are aware of.

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they can be harassed by the polizia for even wearing an anti-Dubya T-Shirt down there.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

Why don't you try wearing an anti-Castro t-shirt in Havana and see how long you last before getting sent to a concentration camp and/or getting beaten to death.

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I would never think of doing such a dumb thing. For one, I admire the great revolutionary and humanitarian. So you'll have to try that on your own there, Stockholmer. You may even find a handful of people to shield you from angry Cubans wanting to tear it off your back.

And besides, we already know what happened to drug-dealing CIA friendlies like Manuel Noriega. For knowing too much about Iran-Contra and CIA dope dealing, they put him so far away that they've got to pump air to'im now. Largest gulag population in the world, right next door to Canada! And the torture gulags in Eastern Europe aren't doing a lot for their image over there either.

[ 29 May 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Don't they also have the largest number of executioons per annum of any country?

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Yes, it does--up there with the US, Saudi Arabia, Colombia, etc.

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But China is a leftwing country! Aren't they supposed to all be "soft on crime"???

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Left-wing? I guess that depends on what you consider "left-wing," like this:

Mao: State capitalism on Building the Economy-- Conference on Financial and Economic Framework 1953

Chinese Capitalism "under Socialism:" Deng Xiaoping 1979 barf!

China: state capitalism to private capitalism 2003

Chinese government suppresses communes

China human rights violations

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I think it's culturally supremacist to apply western notions of left and right to countries such as China and India, which have their political traditions and internal ideological coalitions; often with history much greater than ours.

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Largely true. The whole “left-right” dichotomy stems from the old Directorate government set-up during the French Revolution in 1789 and is in very many ways out of date. Many, though not all, Asian economies and their ruling classes share a punitive and staunchly authoritarian history that has been largely insulated from the democratic/socialistic cultures and influences of Europe.

This is definitely NOT to say that Europe does not share a similar history of oppression and brutality (in some ways more so than Asia). But thanks to the centuries-old labour and socialistic movements and their pro-democracy sentiments, it seems those authoritarian conditions are generally view with less acceptance among large numbers of people than in Asia—again, though, not entirely.

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There's also a huge citizen-run democracy movement in China as well, which I'm sure most here are aware of.

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Yes, there certainly is, and it ties with China's bourgeoning labour movement, as well as the long-established (and defiant) commune movement (the only real sector where there is any actual communism in practice).

The most densely populated country in the world is the Netherlands. They seem to be able to balance having a dense population and also not executing people and stripping them of their human rights.

[ 29 May 2007: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

They could show him meeting with the people he's hurt, discussing how his actions have affected them. There could be challenges, rewards, trust exercises, a healing circle, maybe even a few tears. Make it kind of a loosey-goosey, new-age, warm and fuzzy sort of thing, and he would hate every single moment of it! And it would be funny! Sentence him to a season of it, and if the viewing audience on the season finale doesn't think he's learned anything, let them phone in, vote, and sentence him to another season!

[ 29 May 2007: Message edited by: The Wizard of Socialism ]

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

The most densely populated country in the world is the Netherlands. They seem to be able to balance having a dense population and also not executing people and stripping them of their human rights.

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Netherlands has one percent of China's population. The Netherlands, along with Canada and a few more developed nations practicing socialism for the rich, have supplied a significant amount of military aid in the form of weapons to oppressive right-wing governments in and around China and strategic waterways, like Indonesia. Ordinary people in countries like Indonesia and Thailand have fought courageous battles against oppressive military governments armed to the eye teeth by our sons o bitches in the west.

A billion mouths to house, feed and provide jobs for ?. Give us a break, our colonial administrators wouldn't know whether to shit or go blind. Millions would die in a matter of weeks from a lack of infrastructure to support them. There would be riots, and tanks would roll.

The U.S., Canada's largest trading partner has a quarter of China's population, and nobody's worried about the conveyer belts of death in Texas, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi and dozens more. Nobody's worried that the Yanks execute the mentally disabled and poor people in general without batting eyelashes. Our colonial administrators in Ottawa never bring up the issue of that country's largest gulag population in the world during trade talks.

[ 29 May 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

The continuing illegal occupation and oppression of Tibet
Thousands of Falun Gong members having their corneas forcibly removed so that some Communist Party brass can get a hold of them for cornea transplants.
Thousands massacred at Tien An Mein Square
The fact that anytime a Communist Party bigwig in China needs a kidney transplant - they just execute someone at random and harvest their kidney.
Jails full of political dissidents

There were, however, more than 2000 S. Korean students massacred at Kwangju for protesting U.S. military occupation in 1980.

For some reason, there is a certain segment of people who I call the "stupid left" who just cannot bring themselves to criticize ANYTHING that happens in any country that is some sort of socialist icon (though God only knows why anyone would feel the need to be defensive of a country like China).

So, we get this ridiculous charade where you point out human rights abuses in China and the response is "well in South Korea 27 years ago, the government killed some students" - what does one thing have to do with the other.???

maybe next time you complain about the US imprisoning people in Guantanamo Bay - I can just shut down the discussion by saying - "So what, in the 1930s, Stalin killed millions of Ukrainians"

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An independent news journalist said in his book, Tiananmen Diary: Thirteen Days in June, that he and a British journalist never actually saw anyone shot to death or run over by tanks at Tiananmen Square.

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some supposedly independent news journalists claim nobody died at Auschwitz as well. Maybe Pol Pot got a bum rap too and was running a workers paradise before the Vietnamese came in and "ruined" everything.

[ 30 May 2007: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

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So in other words, just because China has a large population, we should just turn a blind eye and refrain from critizing the following:
The continuing illegal occupation and oppression of Tibet
Thousands of Falun Gong members having their corneas forcibly removed so that some Communist Party brass can get a hold of them for cornea transplants.
Thousands massacred at Tien An Mein Square
The fact that anytime a Communist Party bigwig in China needs a kidney transplant - they just execute someone at random and harvest their kidney.
Jails full of political dissidents

...and it can all be excused by the fact that China has a large population??? You can't be serious.

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No it can’t. It's true that China has always had a big population, largely suffering from starvation, throughout its history, and that trying to overcome this is a huge task--and no one should begrudge anyone trying seriously to do it.

The problem is that it is almost impossible to do this in any substantial way via capitalist economics and the maintaining or various types of institutions and corporations, and the elites that control and profit off them.

That's the problem in China (despite the fraudulent "socialist/communist" BS rhetoric by its government) and anywhere else.

The problem isn't that China has no resources, since it sits on the third largest land mass, full of arable lands and plenty of natural resources and materials. It's always had a large agrarian economy. Today, by capitalist measures (like GDP), it has the largest economy in the world.

Yet China exports food for profit to lucrative international markets while rationing less profitable domestic ones.

The truth is, exporting food for profit while rationing domestic markets and starving working people was also a standard practice of the Soviet economy, starting with the first Five Year Plan, right up until the late 1980s during Perestroika, when local prices were allowed to sky-rocket to the point where people are starving because they can’t pay them—showing that state capitalism can be just as predatory and subject to the oppressive demand-vs-supply dichotomy as its private sector counterparts.

But it’s not just these two economies. It's a problem all over the place and has been for a long, long time.

Even chronically famine-stricken Ethiopia actually exports food--mainly coffee, but livestock and cane crops as well, desperate to raise capital to pay off its bloated IMF/World Bank debts (making a few of its corporate bosses and corrupt leaders richer in the process).

Starving people by sacrificing local markets to export food to profitable foreign one is big all over Africa, largely because of these factors.

It's a classic feature of capitalism of every variety.

The same is true for democracy and human rights concerns. Everybody knows how limited our democracy is due to having to subordinate the public interest and freedom to the dictates of various corporate power cliques and the financial restrictions of capitalist economics.

In China, like the former Soviet Union, the post-revolutionary regimes adopted state capitalist economic policies in order to play rapid catch-up to the more developed “mixed” capitalist economies of the west. That involved exploiting and driving their people extra hard in order to accumulate capital faster to capitalize their industries and economy, enriching a whole bureaucratic capitalistic class in the process.

That’s why you get:

China suppression of labour movement

China suppression of commune movement

China suppression of press freedom

China lacks independent judiciary

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
I will happily condemn every single solitary human rights abuse in South Korea or in any supposedly "capitalist" country.

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That's great. I was just helping you point out cold war atrocities in general. Because the Chinese, like the Russians, had to endure several bloodbaths instigated by foreign-backed armies and mercenaries for hire with an aim to put royalty back on the throne. Just so long as we're all aware of that while expecting an outbreak of normalcy in those countries today.

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some supposedly independent news journalists claim nobody died at Auschwitz as well. Maybe Pol Pot got a bum rap too and was running a workers paradise before the Vietnamese came in and "ruined" everything.[/QB]

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Pol Pot was aided and abetted by the CIA and China both. He took refuge in China after the fall of that regime. The Reagan administration refused to criticize Pol Pot up to the late 1980's. Not many Americans understand that obscure part of their military history.

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Originally posted by Steppenwolf Allende:
The truth is, exporting food for profit while rationing domestic markets and starving working people was also a standard practice of the Soviet economy, starting with the first Five Year Plan, right up until the late 1980s during Perestroika, when local prices were allowed to sky-rocket to the point where people are starving because they can’t pay them—showing...

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Let's get at least a few things straight. Life expectancy and infant mortality were far better in Russia and USSR than during the transition to state capitalism perestroika years. You can look up those facts for yourself.

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China's situation was even worse than democratic capitalist India's in 1949. The western world recognized Taiwan(ruled by a U.S.-backed tyrant Chiang Kai-shek) as China but not the mainland. By Mao's death in 1976, infant mortality was better than democratic capitalist India's IM rate today. Life expectancy in China was doubled by 1976. These are basic country statistics verifiable by the World Bank, WHO and UNICEF.

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This has nothing to do with making the denial of human rights acceptable. It is NEVER acceptable to execute people. It is NEVER acceptable to ban political parties. It is NEVER acceptable to imprison people for their political beliefs. NOTHING will ever excuse the human rights abuses in China. NOTHING!

BTW: In 1949, North Korea was richer than South Korea. Today, South Korea has a standard of living similar to Japan's while in North Korea people starve to death. South Korea is also a free, multi-party democracy where governments actually get voted in and out of office. In North Korea they are stuck with Kim Jong Il who gets his political theory from watching Daffy Duck cartoons.

Democracy and human rights lead to prosperity. Oppression leads to starvation. and before anyone sqawks about what happened in Kwangju - that was 27 years ago. The dictatorship was overthrown, democracy was established in South Korean and the more political freedom there has been - the better the economy has been.

[ 30 May 2007: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

ETA:

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South Korea is also a free, multi-party democracy where governments actually get voted in and out of office. In North Korea they are stuck with Kim Jong Il who gets his political theory from watching Daffy Duck cartoons.

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S. Korea is not a worker's paradise today. Hundreds of union leaders and striking workers have been arrested and thrown in prison. South Koreans are routinely thrown in jail for giving communist speeches. And this is today. The most brutal U.S.-backed dictators, Syngman Rhee and Park Chung Hee were tyrants pulled right out of an Orwell novel.

A CitiGroup Financial report handed to the government in Washington last year said that North Korea's economic reforms are about where China was in the 1980's. North Korea isn't as isolated as western news agencies would have us believe. The Russians are negotiating a deal to supply power to South Korea through the North and electrifying economic expansion in both countries. This general region of the world, the Pacific Rim of countries, is now responsible for generating more capital wealth than anywhere else in the world.

The U.S. has treated Vietnam and North Korea as a pariah nations in the recent past. Now they're clamouring at the gates wanting to invest in Vietnam. Why ?. I think the west will desire to invest in North Korea before long. This just isn't true of so many third world capitalist nations practicing capitalism alone. None of El Salvador or Guatemala, Dominican Republic, Mexico or Honduras are poised for economic greatness. Those countries are decades behind wrt social development, literacy and basic infrastructure. Literacy in North Korea is light years ahead of the capitalist third world. North Korea has the poetential to become the next Asian tiger economy, if S Korea and Taiwan are how we define prosperty. None of the tiger economies followed Washington consensus or neo-Liberal reforms for capitalism in getting where they are from where they were after WWII.

And this is what bugs Washington today, the fact they are no longer the world's sole ecomomic powerhouse. Imperialism works by maintaining division between the barbarians. In spite of the fascist military occupation of Korea, and some eight hundred military bases around the world, the barbarians are no longer divided.

Most Koreans want a united Korea without U.S. military occupation, which represents the largest threat to peace in the region today. Once Korean school teacher said the cost to Koreans for the U.S. occupation could pay for universal post-secondary education in his country.

[ 30 May 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

In North Korea, you criticize Kim Jong Il and you DIE!

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Stockholm: No one said South Korea was a workers paradise. In fact no country is a workers paradise - no such a thing exists. But in South Korea you can vote for opposition parties. You can see the government criticized in the media. You can express your opinion without fear of going to jail and you have no fear of starving to death.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

It's too bad that South Korea was a dictatorship a generation ago. But it isn't now. Spain was still ruled by Franco in those days and was a fascist country. Today it is just about the most progressive country in Europe.

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South Korea is just another repressive capitalist shithole. They still don't have democracy, Stockholmer. And you don't want to go live there if you're an NDP'er. They'd likely throw you in jail for being a troublemaker.

Amnesty

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One of the most important human rights issue in South Korea continues to be the National Security Law, which is used arbitrarily to curtail the right to freedom of expression and association, providing long sentences or the dealth penalty for loosely defined ‘anti-state’ activities

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And Spain under the right-wing "Popular Party" was one of the lowest income countries in the EU along with Berlusconi's Italy. Ongoing neo-Liberal reforms are not working to raise the standard of living or reduce poverty. I'm surprised with this government's betrayal of Spanish workers.

[ 30 May 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

South Korea has had several changes of govern ment by the ballot box and in fact in their first free election in the 80s they elected long-time dissident Kim Dae Jung as their President!

In dictatorships like Cuba, China and North Korea no one has the right to choose their government.

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South Korea elects on national level a head of state – the president – and a legislature. The president is elected for a five year term by the people. The National Assembly (Gukhwe) has 299 members, elected for a four year term, 243 members in single-seat constituencies and 56 members by proportional representation. The main political parties in South Korea are the Uri Party, the Grand National Party (GNP), the Democratic Labor Party (DLP), and the Democratic Party (DP). The Uri Party was formed in late 2003 from a left-leaning faction of the DP (then the Millennium Democratic Party). It gained a slim majority in the National Assembly after the April 2004 legislative elections, but lost it in subsequent by-elections. The conservative GNP and centrist DP form the dominant political opposition. The socialist DLP is aligned with labour unions and farmers' groups.
[discuss] – [edit]
Summary of the 15 April 2004 National Assembly of South Korea election results Parties Votes % +/− Seats +/−
Uri Party (열린우리당, Yeollin Uri-dang) 8,145,824 38.3 — 152 +105
Grand National Party (한나라당, Hannara-dang) 7,613,660 35.8 −3.2 121 −24
Democratic Labour Party (민주노동당, Minju Nodong-dang) 2,773,769 13.0 — 10 +10
Millennium Democratic Party (새천년민주당, Saecheonnyeon Minju-dang) 1,510,178 7.1 −28.8 9 −53
United Liberal Democrats (자유민주연합, Jayu Minju Yeonhap) 600,462 2.8 −7.0 4 −6
Others 642,091 0.3 — 3 −6
Total (60 % out of 35,596,497 registered voters) 21,285,984 100.0 299

Main article: South Korean parliamentary election, 2004

[discuss] – [edit]
Summary of the 19 December 2002 South Korean presidential election results Candidates and nominating parties Votes %
Roh Moo-hyun, 노무현 - Millennium Democratic Party (Sae Cheonnyeon Minjudang) 12,014,277 49.0
Lee Hoi-chang, 이회창 - Grand National Party (Hannara Dang) 11,443,297 46.5
Kwon Young-ghil, 권영길 - Democratic Labour Party (Minju Nodongdang) 957,148 3.9
Total (turnout 70.8 %)
Source: Digital Chosun Ilbo

Main article: South Korean presidential election, 2002

Before the April 2004 election, the GNP had 146 seats, the MDP 62 seats, the Uri Party 47 seats and the ULD 5 seats in the 273-seat Assembly. 2 seats were vacant and there were 10 independents. The MDP was renamed to Democratic Party in 2005. Furthermore, the Uri Party lost seats in by-elections held in April and October of 2005.

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[ 30 May 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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"Free and fair" elections in the capitalist developing world don't really take place you know.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

In other words, if people don't elect a Communist government, then ipso-facto, the election could not have been free and fair???

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Amnesty International--Torture, internment and murder

Human Rights Watch--Government Backtracks on Democratic Reforms

ICFTU--Defiant Workers Take-on Restrictions of Free Association and Assembly

Hell, that oppressive South Korean regime doesn't even want to take in dissidents fleeing the oppressive North Korean regime.

Sure, it's true there have been some pretty good improvements there since the general strikes of 1987 to 1990 forced the 30-year military dictatorship out of power. But it's obvious that authoritarian rule still remain.

And arguments like not-as-bad-as-North-Korea aren't very useful either. As activists and free-thinkers, the whole idea, at least I think, is for us to demand things everywhere be made better for people and the environment (that's what, I think, the whole meaning behind "progressive" is supposed to be).

Getting into the trap of arguing what's not as bad as whatever else is a dead-end street, since it always seems possible to point out one more place where, at least in some ways, people are faring worse than somewhere else.

People in South Korea may certainly be better off than their brothers and sisters in North Korea, but that kind of comparison isn't saying a Hell of a lot. Whether it's the primarily state capitalist-oriented economy of the North, or the primarily corporate monopoly capitalist economy of the South, that fact is both are dominated by oppressive privileged profiteering cliques that screw their own people via authoritarian state rule.

In 1963, the standard of living in South Korea was lower than that of Zambia. Today, the standard of living in South Korea is comparable to Japan.

Are things perfect. Certainly not. But there is no question that the average person in South Korea is VASTLY better off than the average person in North Korea - or even China.

When was the last time you heard of any political dissidents in South Korea wanting to flee to the North? The only south to north movement I've heard of in Korea was when Kim Jong Il kidnapped a leading director and actress from South Korea and placed them under house arrest in Pyongyang and ordered them to make movies for him!!

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Are things perfect. Certainly not. But there is no question that the average person in South Korea is VASTLY better off than the average person in North Korea - or even China.

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South Korea has several advantages over North Korea, one being that they are able to trade freely with the western world. There were three million North Koreans killed during the imperialist war to divide a nation. Napalm and thousands of bombs were dropped on the mainly mountainous Northern Korea and destroying most of the infrastructure in cities and surrounding areas. And in spite of the massive destruction and loss of life, North Koreans were once better off than their southern counterparts while trading within the USSR.

South Korea doesn't have democracy today. And Stockholmer won't be handing in his OHIP card at the border and moving to that country anytime soon.

[ 31 May 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

Stockholmer, what if the Chinese army was to occupy Canada today and put nukes on our soil?. How would that look for free and fair elections ?.

[ 31 May 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Democracy doesn't just happen overnight in a repressed country like S Korea.

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Why not? Spain and Portugal were fascist dictatorships just a generation ago - now both have social democratic governments and are part of the EU.

Chile and Argentina were fascist dictatorship just 20 years ago - now both have social democratic governments, freedom of the press and a flourishing civil society and free multi-party election that have featured peaceful alternations in government by the major parties.

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Kilgour and Winnipeg human rights lawyer David Matas last January released a report saying they had independently confirmed allegations of Chinese organ harvesting on a "large scale" from unwilling Falun Gong practitioners.

The Chinese government last month denied the claims, saying it has banned the sale of human organs and allows medical transplants only with written consent under standards that protect the safety and health of patients.

But Kilgour and Matas said they found evidence Falun Gong practitioners are killed for their organs, which are sold to foreigners for "huge amounts of money."

Holt, who once represented the Vancouver House of Commons seat now held by Trade Minister David Emerson, accused Emerson of being complicit in organ harvesting by ignoring the allegations while supporting closer trade ties with China.

Torsten Trey, a physician with Doctors Against Organ Harvesting, compared the 2008 Beijing Games to the 1936 Olympics held in Germany only three years before the beginning of the Holocaust.

"The Holocaust in China has already started," he said. "The organ harvesting of living people is just the tip of the iceberg in the persecution of Falun Gong."

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The fascists are still there in Chile with fangs covered for now, Stockholmer. After 1989, socialists who lost family members to torture and murder had to endure sitting across the way in parliament from the oppressors. General Pinochet never faced justice, and many members of the dreaded DINA and U.S.-trained death squads were never made to answer for their crimes of torture and murder.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
So Fidel, do you support FREE, FAIR, MULTIPARTY elections or not? You seem to keep beating around the bush. What is so bad about letting the people VOTE?

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Sure, and most Koreans don't desire to have U.S. nukes or the U.S. military parked in their backyard. Like I was saying, what would it achieve toward free and fair elections to have the Chinese army stationed along the Can-Am border and nuke-ready ?.

By the same token, I can only interpret your admiration for South Korean democracy in that you must also understand that Afghanistan's Soviet-backed PDPA government won free and fair elections and that Soviet military were only there to uphold democratic choice in the 1980's. Or that the mayor of Kabul would enjoy unprecedented support across Afghanistan if the U.S. military were to exit that country today. See what I mean ?.

U.S. managed elections, with the threat of violence, are called “democratic”

[ 31 May 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

I cannot believe that I belong to the same Party as this character.. for now at least.

[ 31 May 2007: Message edited by: bohajal ]

If you think that a majority of South Koreans want the US military presence to end - then please provide some evidence. If the South Koreans really wanted the American to leave they would simply elect a majority government that was pledged to demand that the Americans leave. But, so far, they haven't. Probably at least in part because they don't want 5 million North Korean troops to pour across the border the very next day like what happened in 1950. If the South Koreans WANT a US military presence in their country - that is their right - maybe if you were South Korean you'd disagree and that is your right as well.

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Afghanistan NEVER had multi-party elections when it was under Soviet domination. It was a one party Stalinist dictatorship.

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Stockholm's thesis I understand is:

- Under "Soviet domination", dictatorship. No option.

-Under Taliban, no option either.

-Puppet regime sponsored by Israel's benefactor and protector: Perfect

About South Koreans? They love the US presence and domination !

"They [Chileans] can't be trusted with democracy" -- the doctor to the madman and NSA

[ 31 May 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by bohajal:
You are a fraud being "NDPer", Stockholm.

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Originally posted by Fidel:
The Yanks are the only country in the world to have their nukes deployed in other nations, supposedly to protect them from a cold war threat that doesn't exist anymore. The U.S. military-industrial complex and NATO are the biggest threat to world peace today.

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I agree but that doesn't mean China should be immune from criticism.

quote:

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Originally posted by Max Bialystock:

I agree but that doesn't mean China should be immune from criticism.

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Canada has endured a string of guilty politicians on the take, like Brian Baloney, Grant Devine's mafia caucus, the Libranos etc. Remember Dalton Camp ?. When guilt appeared imminent in that case costing taxpayer's over $2 million bucks, old Dalton simply resigned and slithered away from the consequences.

Here's my opinion on the matter. If China wants to impose the toughest sentencing to punish crime at the highest levels of public trust, then all the power to them and countries like Singapore, which unlike Canada, actually rates among the top ten most competitive economies in the world and workers earning fifth highest incomes on average in the world. Canadian voter turnouts were at all time lows after the FTA-NAFTA betrayals by our two crooked old line parties. Canadians want democracy and some accountability in Ottawa and Queen's Parks. That's what I think.

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Actually the US has bases not because of the alleged communist threat (as during the Cold War) but because the US, the most violent terrorist state of them, needs to protect everyone from "terrorism."

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The terrorist threat is a cover to justify continued taxpayer funding of Keynesian-militarism in the U.S. Keynesian-militarism (upside-down socialism for the rich) is unique to the "capitalist" USA ever since the collapse of laissez-faire capitalism in the 1930's. The only thing the hawks are terrified of is an outbreak of world peace, and China is another cold war enemy in the real battle taking place, the battle for natural resource wealth being wages at great cost to democracy and human rights around the world. The cold war is just the colder war now.

[ 31 May 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Afghanistan NEVER had multi-party elections when it was under Soviet domination. It was a one party Stalinist dictatorship.

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Very true, but what you don't seem to realize is that it still pretty much is that today--except with a different backer and different rhetoric.

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If you think that a majority of South Koreans want the US military presence to end - then please provide some evidence.

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How about from the US government itself:

Estimated 80 per cent of South Koreans want less US Influence and Better ties with the North

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If the South Koreans WANT a US military presence in their country - that is their right

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True--if they actually want it and are given the freedom to decide based on free and open exchange of debate and information: all things which, as the links I posted previously show, they do not have.

Add to this, most clearly don't want the US military presence, or at least greater independence from it, and they still haven't got it. Starting to see the problems with your view?

quote:

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There is an electoral process in South Korea that anyone can use - you prove that the public is behind you by winning an election.

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Again, the info in the links shown above prove that’s not the case there. Electoral fraud, harassment and arrest of democratic socialist candidates, a totally right-wing media, etc., are all there. Why do you think there has been so much labour unrest there in the past year? Because that fraudulent fascistic regime they have is trying to backtrack and take away the rights and freedoms they won over the last 30 years of fighting for.

I agree it’s worse in North Korea. But if you look at why it’s worse, you find many of the same fundamentally rotten reasons as in South Korea, only in many cases more extreme.

Now, Stocker, as one NDPer to another, I ask you forget South and North Korea for a second and think about Canada. Do you think our elections here are free and fair? If you’ve ever worked on an NDP campaign you can clearly see the same problems as over in those other two countries, only not as extreme, that make it VERY unfair for the NDP and the forces of the public interest: the largely inaccessible and hostile corporate media monopoly; being constantly out-funded and out-spent in election campaigns; thanks to the first two, there is an artificially imposed cultural block against the NDP and what it stands for.

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If China wants to impose the toughest sentencing to punish crime at the highest levels of public trust, then all the power to them

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This is of a piece with your support of totalitarian regimes wherever you find them.

If a death penalty is to be imposed on someone, the VERY FIRST THING required is a fair method of determining guilt. And China doesn't have it. Nor does Cuba. Unless YOU would face a death penalty trial without an independent lawyer, and with no procedural rights in place, don't go saying it's ok for others to have to do so.

First, we have those Babblers who blow all credibility and integrity by constantly making servile apologies and sanitization efforts for any fascistic con job regime that adopts the label “socialist” or “communist” to sell itself.

Second, we have those “Oh-yes-but” type Babblers, better known as Zionists, who take the Israel-can-do-no-wrong position, no matter how many people are killed or carted off to concentration camps and make-shift ghettos.

Third, we have those Babblers who post the talk-the-talk speeches by Saint Fidel Castro of Ruz, refusing to discuss any concerns about some serious walk-the-walk issues.

Fourth, now we have a budding Babbler fan club for the oppressive regime of South Korea, simply because it’s not as bad as North Korea.

What gets forgotten in all this is that if we, as socialists, activists, democratic free-thinkers, etc., should ideally be critical of economics and politics, regardless of what great-sounding label is put on them, that violate the at least three centuries of progressive socialistic/democratic values, that we supposedly have inherited and support. Notice how the various factions here are ignoring the gross brutality of the regimes they sympathize with and instead highlighting the gross brutality of those they do not.

It’s fine to point out the various progressive accomplishments within every economy and society. It’s quite another thing to fraudulently sanitize a country, or economy or government simply because it may, usually by force of its working class citizens, adopt some progressive socialistic or democratic reforms, and pick a friendly sounding label for itself (like “socialism,” “communism,” “democracy,” “liberty,” etc.).

The historic fact is socialism and democracy are inseparably linked and one can’t exist to any real extent without the other (especially socialism). Nor can either be imposed from above or without. It’s a fact that people have to learn how to do these things and fight and work toward them.

The fact is, with the exception of numerous regional and sectoral successes around the globe, every economy is, in various way and to varying degrees, dominated by some form of capitalism, with socialism at best being a tolerated opposition or reform side show and thus democracy being a very limited practice—despite whatever bombastic claims made by various governments.

That’s why, as supposed socialists and free-thinkers, it makes sense to speak out against, criticize and express concern over documented brutality, poverty, oppression and exploitation, etc., everywhere they are reported, regardless of what the governments may claim or call themselves, and show support for the legitimate efforts of working class forces there to challenge and overcome these. If we don’t, then we are morally no better than those governments and corporate power brokers making these false claims.

The development of socialism as the primary economic practice across nations and globally, is a long term working-class based evolutionary effort. It’s obviously much more than just expropriating a few plutarchs, setting some social welfare and public infrastructure, and holding ballot vote fests every now and then.

The historic struggles for democracy itself is a socialistic effort, most often led or influenced by socialists and trade unionists of various kinds, as the end result is a classless stateless society—although this ideal may be generations off or may never even come to pass. But history show the efforts to do this reap their own rewards and public benefits (like political and personal freedoms, social justice and safety net, higher living standards, mutual respect, justice and due process, etc.).

quote:

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Originally posted by jeff house:

If a death penalty is to be imposed on someone, the VERY FIRST THING required is a fair method of determining guilt. And China doesn't have it. Nor does Cuba.

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First of all, Cuba's death penalty for hijackings has succeeded to curtail criminal theft of state property taken from Cuba to the U.S. where the terrorists were being welcomed with open arms. These weren't good people, Jeff. They were threatening to murder law-abiding Cubans in the process. Orlando Bosch and Luis Posada Carriles are murderers, Jeff. And the Yanks don't try murdering thugs on the CIA's payroll.

quote:

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Originally posted by Steppenwolf Allende:
Third, we have those Babblers who post the talk-the-talk speeches by Saint Fidel Castro of Ruz, refusing to discuss any concerns about some serious walk-the-walk issues.

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By the same token, some people refuse to understand the other side of the coin, the trade embargos, the CIA meddling in Cuba as it has done so in Central America. A democratically-elected leader just 50 miles from Cuban shores was abducted by the CIA, and a CIA-led military coup against Venezuela's leader took place in this very decade. The naive among us believe all of this is inconsequential, that the two countries should drop their guard in favour of U.S. managed elections

And as for your "fact" that socialism and democracy are inseparably linked, try again. The west refused to respect the results of the Russian revolution and sent 25 international armies and mercenaries to help white Russians slaughter millions and marauding through that country in the 1920's. There was western aggression against Russia part two in 1941, and 30 million more were slaughtered and cities destroyed. Millions more were left homeless, wandering the frozen landscape and starving to death as it was a little over a decade earlier. Western aggression against the people's revolutionary created "father" Stalin in Russia. Don't blame the Russians, they've suffered enough western bullshit since 1917.

And Cuba's revolutionary choice has weathered more than one hurricane since 1959 with Bay of Pigs, dozens of U.S.-based terrorist attacks on Cuban infrastructure and citizens, and a mean-spirited cold war embargo that continues today in many respects. Imagine that Canada and 25 international armies invaded the U.S. in an effort to put crazy George back in power over its colony and caused the deaths of millions of Americans in the process.

Apologists for imperialism are capable of skirting around historical fact. I'm not one of them.

[ 31 May 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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And as for your fact that socialism and democracy are inseparably linked, try again.

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They are, and that's an historic fact--and all the reporting on invasions, abductions, embargos and terrorism only show it's the case.

quote:

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Originally posted by bohajal:
Maybe China and Cuba did not adopt our kind of "democracy" so not to inflict upon humanity this kind of electorate...

... http://tinyurl.com/22oxzm

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True democracy absolutely requires a well-informed public. The USA doesn't have it, Jeff.

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Only the apologists for imperialism attempt to skirt around historical facts.

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According to SA, all Chileans had to do was endure sixteen years of brutal right-wing facism in order to make way for utopian socialism. He doesn't seem to realize that the fascists are still there in Chile and biding their time with the "social democrats." I'm sure families of the desaperacidos, dead socialists and missing union leaders would have a different opinion of this apologist for fascismo state capitalism.

Stockholm says similar things and points to Spain and Portugal. It doesn't matter that the democratic western world didn't see fit to push for democracy at a time when fascism represented a threat to democracy around the world. Winston Churchill even had praise for Franco's gun barrel diplomacy toward trade unions and socialists. And, those countries became democratic in spite of the fact that there was no occupation by nuclear-powered U.S. military as is the case in Korea, Iraq and Afghanistan today. The imperialist aim throughout history is to maintain division among the barbarians, and the U.S. needs to close down the torture prisons around the world, pack up the 800 foreign military bases and focus on fixing third world conditions in their own country, because democracy and imperialism are incompatible.

[ 31 May 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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It doesn't matter that the democratic western world didn't see fit to push for democracy at a time when fascism represented a threat to democracy around the world.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

Better late than never.

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Churchill and Roosevelt fully expected the Nazis to occupy the Kremlin in about six weeks time at the start of barbarossa. And then Stalin chased the two of them around the world begging for a second front for two years. 30 million dead Russians, several million Ukrainians marched out of their homes to slave labour camps, and major cities destroyed "late."

ETA: The U.S. and Canada closed the doors to Jewish refugees from Europe, but there were special permits for western corporations doing business with the "enemy." In the end, the two leaders were afraid the Red Army would liberate Europe by themselves.

[ 31 May 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

One thing for sure, the Soviets never brought democracy to any country. Look at this record:

*Invaded Hungary and imposed a fascist regime
*Murdered Jan Masaryk in Czechoslavakia by throwing him out a window and then invaded Czechoslovakia in 1968 so they could impose a fascist Soviet puppet regime
Ordered the East German puppet regime to build the Berlin Wall and to shoot to kill at anyone trying to escape
Martial law in Poland imposed by the fascistic Soviet puppet regime.

quote:

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
Stalin is estimated to have killed more people than Hitler dead - including millions of Ukrainians during his purposeful famine.

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A "snapshot" for posterity.

Hitler (and his corporate-sponsored military machine) were the more efficient killers over just twelve years. Yes, the Nazis drove GM and Ford trucks all over Europe, and IBM sprockets were there and providing slave labour accountants with technical support. The killing spree wasn't even finished by the time the Red Army liberated Kracow, Warsaw, Kiev and laying railway tracks every inch of the way to Berlin. There were an estimated 60 to 80 million dead and missing at the end of the second world war. They weren't finished with making way for liebensraum in Russia. "Useless eaters" in Latvia, Estonia, Yugoslavia, Romania etc apparently had no future in a fascist Europe.

ETA: And the U.S. and British-backed Chiang Kai-shek missed the mark in China in 1949 after slaughtering 10 million Maoists and non-partisan Chinese. He and his gangsters split to Formosa(China/Taiwan to imperialist apologists such as your bad self), and Burma where they would make drug connections with the CIA during the Vietnam war. Best laid plans etc

But all that doesn't matter to apologists for imperialism. Because democracy is a snap wherever the sun shines and hindsight is 20-20. Details-details, don't bother them with historical details.

quote:

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
and much more....

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Meet the Friendly Dictators 36 of them!

[ 31 May 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

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It's all state capitalism bla bla bla So what does it matter to the Trotskyist fringe anyway? If only history didn't get in the way of SA's "facts", we could have perfect socialism tomorrow.
According to SA, all Chileans had to do was endure sixteen years of brutal right-wing facism in order to make way for utopian socialism. He doesn't seem to realize that the fascists are still there in Chile and biding their time with the "social democrats." I'm sure families of the desaperacidos, dead socialists and missing union leaders would have a different opinion of this apologist for fascismo state capitalism.

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Man o man, the reality-defying stupidity and dishonesty of apologists to defend the indefensible. This goof doesn't have a clue about socialism or what it is or what people have done historically to try to develop it—let alone what I think about it or have been involved in.

That's why he can't accept the fundamental and widely understood, especially by Soviet and Chinese, etc., rulers and leaders, of state capitalism, which is overwhelmingly recognized by progressive social justice, labour and cooperative/economic democracy movements and many economists all over the world (except for elite anti-socialist media and political hacks and bureaucracies and, of course, goofy Stalinist apologists and Soviet-era nostalgists hoping for a high-paid pork-chop do-nothing position in some state corporation some day).

“Fascismo state capitalism” describes the Soviet economy, in particular Stalinism, as well as Maoist policies, to a tee—and the legions of dead socialists, missing union leaders and the mourning families are there to prove it—and no amount of slander and lies against me will change that and the fact that apologists for these regimes and their policies are in the same league as the Nazis, Neo-Cons, corporatists, US Patriots, etc.

They are all to be disrespected.

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Hitler (and his corporate-sponsored military machine) were the more efficient killers over just twelve years. Yes, the Nazis drove GM and Ford trucks all over Europe, and IBM schprockets were there and providing slave labour accountants with technical support.

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It's true, they did. But then again, so did the Stalinists, as the Ford empire invested large amounts of resources in the Soviet auto and heavy manufacturing industries in the 1920s and 1930s.

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But all that doesn't matter to apologists for imperialism.

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I’ll say. All the imperialists need to do is pick a few great sounding labels like “socialism” or “democracy,” and PRESTO! They get either Fidel or Stockholm waving their flags, denying proven verified historic and economic fact and saying anything to make them look good, regardless of how dishonest it all is.

quote:

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Originally posted by Steppenwolf Allende:
It's true, they did. But then again, so did the Stalinists, as the Ford empire invested large amounts of resources in the Soviet auto and heavy manufacturing industries in the 1920s and 1930s.

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Ah! More apologism from the apologizing apologizers for fascism. And then when they realized corporatism was off the agenda in that country, they began aiding and abetting the fascists for war of annihilation against communism in Russia. State capitalism, what's the diff, right ?.

How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power

Bush Nazis: A Dynasty of Mass Murderers

The CIA's Worst Kept Secret

Henry Ford and the "Jewish Problem"

IBM and the Holocaust

Nasty Business and Fascismo

operation paperclip YouTube

Oh aye, they were just "hedging their bets", right SteppenWolf ?

[ 01 June 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
Fidel, do you actually acknowledge that there was anything bad about Stalin? or do you just want to talk about Hitler?

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1)Stockholm does not revert to saying - Stalin killed millions of Ukrainians; and
2)Fidel does not respond to posts by saying that the CIA did something.

I am no fan of CIA actions, nor of Ukrainian genocide, but the fact that China has a repressive regime is surely something that all babblers can agree on.

I'd also mention to Fidel that India has over a billion mouths to feed, and seems to have progressed just as well as China (a much larger middle class at the current time) without resorting to mass executions.

quote:

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Originally posted by non sequitur:

I am no fan of CIA actions, nor of Ukrainian genocide, but the fact that China has a repressive regime is surely something that all babblers can agree on.

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Interesting point. I happen to believe China has a repressive regime. But why should "all babblers" agree on that?

Do all babblers agree that Israel is an aggressive and racist regime?

quote:

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Originally posted by non sequitur:
I'd also mention to Fidel that India has over a billion mouths to feed, and seems to have progressed just as well as China (a much larger middle class at the current time) without resorting to mass executions.

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Yes, China was a basket case compared with even India in 1949. Have you compared the infant mortality rates between the two countries beginning in 1976, the year of Mao's death ?. An estimated 350 million Indians go to bed hungry
every night of their miserable lives while that country exports food and cash crops to "the market" as per IMF and WTO requirements for loan stipulations and trade rules.

And before anyone accuses me of mortality mongering, IM is a benchmark used for determining failed nation status. And until economists start using plastic widgets enjoyed per capita as a benchmark measure of economic success, the IM rate will be considered valid. Because it's difficult to experience life in general when they drop out of the race by the ages of one to five.

[ 01 June 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:

Do all babblers agree that Israel is an aggressive and racist regime?

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quote:

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An estimated 350 million Indians go to bed hungry every night of their miserable lives while that country exports food and cash crops to "the market" as per IMF and WTO requirements for loan stipulations and trade rules.

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quote:

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Do all babblers agree that Israel is an aggressive and racist regime?

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Well, I know that none of you guys will agree with this one:

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

China exports even more food than India and on top of that they poison us by lacing it with melamine!

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Those fascist bastards!

There are several differences in the way the two countries arrived at capitalism. For one thing, China still has state collectives employing several million agricultural workers. China has not exposed itself to Washington consensus for trade liberalization nearly like India has over the years and not the western-guided reforms toward gangster capitalism causing poverty and mortality rates to go through the roof. The Asian tiger economies were all basket cases at the end of WWII. What did they do different since 1945 ?.

On the other hand, countries like India and especially Thailand have followed Washington consensus for liberalization of their economies to a tee. In the late 1990's, India was having trouble meeting its debt service payments, and companies like Cargill had sold fertilizers and pesticides to Indian government and farmers. The harvested grain sat in silos while millions went hungry from a lack of money in the economy in general. But due to unrealistic loan stipulations, the Indian government was forced to try and sell the grain through world markets. The grain rotted in silos, and over two million Indians starved to death in a short period. FAO has said that 85 percent of chronically hungry nations export food and cash crops to the market today.

[ 01 June 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:
China's situation was even worse than democratic capitalist India's in 1949 . . .

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[ 01 June 2007: Message edited by: Free_Radical ]

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Originally posted by jeff house:

"All babblers agree that Israel is an aggressive and racist regime; Stalin should not have supported its foundation, nor should the Soviet Union."

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Good grief. You guys should form your own twelve step group: Apologizing Apologizers for Fascism Anonymous.

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Originally posted by Free_Radical:

While democratic since 1949 it was also socialist. India wasn't a capitalist country until the 1990's and Prime Minister Rao's liberalisation reforms - under which the economy - along with literacy, life expectancy and other measures of human welfare - improved substantially.

[ 01 June 2007: Message edited by: Free_Radical ]

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There are an average of ten million people dying of starvation around the democratic capitalist third world every year since before 1847. By the end of "Black '47", six million people starved to death in Ireland while pork and corn were exported from a dozen Irish sea ports to "the market."

quote:

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Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:

Who exactly is an apologist for fascism, besides Stockholm's praising of South Korea?

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But now, we have a neo-con apologist joining in with this beauty of a BS statement:

quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:
China's situation was even worse than democratic capitalist India's in 1949 . . .

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"Free" (that's a laugh) Radical responded:

quote:

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While democratic since 1949 it was also socialist.

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One has to wonder about the person's mental health when they say this.

But it's easily dismissible when compared to the facts:

Caste and Capitalism in Colonial India

India caste capitalism since 1949

Increased foreign corporate rule over India 1949-1990

The fact is, while at least a marginal democratic electoral process was set up in India in 1949, Gandhi himself recognized it would always be severely limited and easily corruptible as long as the economy remained under any kind of capitalistic rule.

Now, as to this beauty:

quote:

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India wasn't a capitalist country until the 1990's and Prime Minister Rao's liberalisation reforms - under which the economy - along with literacy, life expectancy and other measures of human welfare - improved substantially.

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It can also be dismissed with a few facts:

Sweatshops on the rise in India

Overall decline in India living standards in the last decade.

Reforms lead to worsening poverty in India

So the facts are that India’s economy is now and has always been predominantly capitalist, and so-called “liberalization,” which actually means brutal social infrastructure cuts, privatization, down-sizing and layoffs, union-busting, increased multi-national corporate rule, etc., is driving down the country’s already destitute poverty and lack of democracy.

The only thing socialistic about India's economy, other than a few social reforms, is its large cooperative business movements and communes, which helped spawn India's labour movement.

quote:

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Originally posted by Steppenwolf Allende:
Well, I had quit this thread, as it had become a snit between two apologists for their favourite twisted forms of capitalism and the resulting atrocities

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Aaa! tut-tut How quickly you forget about doing a bit of apologizing for Henry Ford and capitalists selling industrial equipment to Russia in the 1920's in making those industrialists out to be babes in the woods and taken advantage of by a country attempting to rebuild after the devastation of WWI and 1918-22. There has to be a twelve step meeting happening somewhere.

Some of us want to use the "apologist" label without having it thrown back at them. It doesn't work that way.

[ 01 June 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:
The western world had a choice to either accept the results of the Russian revolution...

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quote:

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Some of us want to use the "apologist" label without having it thrown back at them. It doesn't work that way.

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Some of us use the term correctly, as in applying it to those who slander socialism and democracy by equating them with various twisted capitalistic scams (like Stalinism, Nazism, Neo-Conservatism, etc.), while others use it to desperately slander those who expose them on these facts (like accusing people of apologizing for power-hungry capitalist opportunists like Ford).

Apologists are just pathetic. It's great, though, to shine a light on them and watch them squirm.

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But it seems like there is some weird cult-like sect on the far loony left that will simply never acknowledge that regimes that call themselves socialist are also capable of horrific, unconcionable and inexcusable human rights abuses

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If you want to talk about this group you call "the far loony left" you need to get your thoughts into proper perspective.

These people have a very real tendency in their thinking process...

They are called "Stalinists" and must be understood as such. its very important that you think of them as such. They are not loony they are Stalinists. There is a very distince difference when you use the proper term.

When you use the wrong term you can become confused and not come to the proper conclusions in dealing with them and what they want..

Once again they are "Stalinists" It is Stalinism and Stalinist type of thinking that you discribe.

Its not Marxism and its not Socialism....They are not socialist in any shape, way or form... just because they may use and think about socialism does not mean that they are....

[ 01 June 2007: Message edited by: trippie ]