By the way, here's a map:

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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Originally posted by Sven:
Very nice map, N.Beltov.

So, N.Beltov and kropotkin1951, I look forward to seeing your vigorous defense of similar military actions in the future.

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Your defence of it though appears not to be able to rise above: Quick look over here at Russia don't look at Georgia nothing happening with them.

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Originally posted by Sven:
By the way, N.Beltov and kropotkin1951, I don’t necessarily disagree with what the Russians are doing. The U.N. is a complete joke and it is virtually incapable of taking any meaningful steps to stop genocide or ethnic cleansing. If the Russians had waited for U.N. action, the people who would be the beneficiaries of such U.N. action would all be dead.

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In the course of the last 24 hours Russia Today's (RT) website (www.russiatoday.com) has endured numerous DDoS attacks, which have made it unavailable for some time. Channel’s security specialists say the initial attack was carried out from an IP-address registered in the Georgian capital Tbilisi.

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RT attacked.

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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Cueball: What an idiot this fellow Saakashvili is. What was he thinking?

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During the Soviet times, Abkhazia was one of the most prosperous regions of the former Soviet Union. The national economy was based on agriculture, light industry, mining, electric power production, and tourism. The main agricultural products were citrus fruits, tea, tobacco, oil-bearing plants, olives, figs, nuts, laurel leaf, wine and other beverages, honey, and cheese. Forestry and fishery were also of importance. In the Soviet times, Abkhazia met up to 20% of the USSR's demand for tea. Abkhazian peasants produced more than 120,000 tons of citrus fruits (mostly mandarins), 110,000 tons of tea leaves, up to 14,000 tons of aromatic tobacco, some 14,000 tons of grapes. For the most part, these products were exported. Light industry manufactured copy machines, gas-bags, radios and telephones, mixed feed for cattle, chemical products, textiles, and shoes. There were coal mining and house-building plants besides. Abkhazia's economy was oriented mainly towards the huge Soviet market, its economical cooperation with Georgia being prominent only in the energy and transport sectors.

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ABKHAZIA: ECONOMIC AND POLITICAL SITUATION AND PERSPECTIVES

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As a result of the Georgian military defeat and the subsequent secession of Abkhazia, the latter has established itself, and has functioned for more than 5 years now, as a de facto independent state. Though the international community still regards Abkhazia as a part of Georgia, Abkhazia is sovereign and is not controlled by Georgia or any other foreign power. It has its own Constitution, adopted in 1994, its own army, and its own foreign policy. Abkhazia concluded agreements with federated republics of the Russian Federation (with the Republic of Tatarstan, the Republic of Bashkortostan, the Kabarda-Balkar Republic, and the Republic of Adyghea), with the Transdnestr Republic and Gagauzia within the Republic of Moldova, which can be regarded as international agreements.

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Seems to me we should all be condemning the initial aggressor rather than trying to divert attention to the reaction to aggression.

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I condemn them both. And US meddling as well. Neither side cares about civilian casualties or property damage.

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Well, I do. In that they should not be bombing targets inside Georgia. But there you go. Reap what you sow.

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Traduction (rapide) du communiqué de la Fédération des travailleurs de l'éducation, des sciences et techniques de la section Russe de l'AIT, Association Internationale des Travailleurs :

L'éruption des actions militaires en Géorgie et en Ossétie du Sud menacent de se transformer en une guerre à grande échelle entre la Géorgie soutenue par le bloc de l'OTAN, d'une part, et l'état Russe, d'autre part. Des milliers de personnes ont déjà été tuées et blessées - principalement, des habitants pacifiques; des villes et des villages entiers ont été anéantis. La société a été submergée par un flot boueux d'hystérie nationaliste et chauvine.

Comme toujours et partout dans les conflits entre les Etats, il n'y a pas et ne peut pas y avoir de justes dans cette nouvelle guerre du Caucase, il n'y a que des coupables. Pendant des années ils ont attisé les charbons qui se sont maintenant embrasés dans un feu militaire. Le régime de Saakashvili en Géorgie maintient deux tiers de la population dans un état de pauvreté. Plus s'accroît le mécontentement interne dans son pays, plus s'accroît son désir de trouver une issue à cette impasse, pour faire oublier son bilan, sous forme d'une "petits guerre victorieuse".

Les gouverneurs de la Russie quant à eux sont remplis de la détermination de maintenir leur hégémonie sur le Caucase. Ils voudraient aujourd'hui prendre la pose de défenseur des faibles, mais leur hypocrisie est très claire : en fait, Saakashvili ne fait que répéter ce que la soldatesque Poutiniste a fait, il y a 9 ans, en Tchétchénie. Les cercles dirigeants d'Ossetie comme d'Abkhazie aspirent à renforcer leur rôle exclusif d'alliés de la Russie dans la région, et en même temps à rallier la population appauvrie autour de concepts déjà éprouvés dans ce genre de situation, tels que "le sentiment national" ou encore "la défense du peuple".

Les dirigeants des États-Unis, des Etats européens et l'OTAN, au contraire, veulent affaiblir autant que possible l'influence des dominateurs Russe sur le Caucase, pour se garantir à eux-mêmes le contrôle sur les ressources en pétrole de la région et les moyens de leur livraison (gazoduc et oléoduc). Ainsi, nous sommes devenus les témoins et les victimes du prochain cycle de la lutte mondiale pour le pouvoir, le pétrole et le gaz.

Cette guerre n'apportera rien aux travailleurs - Géorgiens, Ossètes, Abkhasiens ou Russes - si ce n'est du sang et des larmes, des désastres incalculables et des privations. Nous exprimons notre profonde sympathie aux parents, proches et amis des victimes, aux personnes qui sont restées sans un toit au-dessus de la tête et sans moyens de subsistance par suite de cette guerre.

Nous ne devons pas tomber sous l'influence de la démagogie nationaliste qui exige de notre part l'unité avec" nos "gouverneurs battant pavillon de la « protection de la terre natale ». Le principal ennemi des gens simples ne sont pas leurs frères pauvres et dominés de l'autre côté de la frontière ou d'une autres nationalité.
Leurs ennemis sont les patrons et les dirigeants de toutes sortes, présidents et ministres, hommes d'affaires et généraux, ceux qui génèrent les guerres pour multiplier leur puissance et leur richesse. Nous appelons les travailleurs en Russie, en Ossetie, en Abkhazie et en Géorgie à rejeter un le piège du nationalisme et du patriotisme et à retourner leur colère contre les riche et les dirigeants des deux côtés de la frontière.

Aux soldats russes, géorgiens, abkhazes et ossètes! N'obéissez aux ordres de vos commandants, tournez vos armes contre ceux qui vous envoient faire la guerre! Ne tirez sur les soldats "adverses" - fraternisez avec eux, la baïonnette plantée dans le sol !

Travailleurs de l'arrière ! Sabotez les efforts militaires, organisez des réunions et des manifestations contre la guerre, organisez vous par vous-mêmes et déclencher la grève contre la guerre !

Non à la guerre et à ses organisateurs - dirigeants et riches bourgeois !

Oui à la solidarité des travailleurs par dessus les frontières et les lignes de front!

KRAS-AIT

http://www.kras.fatal.ru/

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

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Originally posted by Agent 204:
I think by "inside Georgia" Cueball means the parts that are outside South Ossetia; i.e. in Georgia proper.

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Critical is Russia’s support for the Southern Ossetes. Russia is unwilling to see Georgia join NATO. In addition, the Ossetes are the oldest Russian allies in the Caucasus who have provided troops to the Russian army in many wars. Russia does not wish to abandon them and the Abkhaz, and fuel yet more ethnic unrest among their compatriots in the Russian North Caucasus. In a November 2006 referendum, 99 percent of South Ossetians voted for independence from Georgia, at a time when most of them had long held Russian passports. This enabled Russian President Medvedev to justify his military's counter-attack of Georgia on Friday as an effort to "protect the lives and dignity of Russian citizens, wherever they may be."

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Except for the Washington Post, the entire world knows that Georgia (the birthplace of Joseph Stalin, not Georgia USA) initiated the aggression that killed Russian peacekeepers and hundreds of civilians in South Ossetia, peacekeepers who were there with the blessing of Georgia and international agreements.

The true facts are available all over the world press. But the “liberal” Washington Post serves up the lie that Russia has attacked Georgia and conceivably plans to conquer all of Georgia. “This is a grave challenge to the United States and Europe,” thunders the Bush Regime’s mouthpiece, aka, “the liberal media.”

Thirsting for blood, the “liberal media” declares: “The United States and its NATO allies must together impose a price on Russia.”

Here we see the combination of idiocy and delusion in one sentence. The United States has proved that it is incapable of occupying Iraq, much less Afghanistan. Russia has a large trade surplus. America’s NATO allies are dependent on Russian natural gas. Yet the “liberal” Washington Post wants a bankrupt US and “its NATO allies” who are dependent on Russian energy “to impose a price on Russia” for defending its peacekeepers!

Seldom has the world seen such total insanity as the neoconservative Washington Post, a propaganda sheet as far from “liberal media” is it is possible to be.

Georgia was part of Old Russia and the Soviet Union for two centuries. After Soviet communism collapsed, the US taxpayer funded neoconservative National Endowment for Democracy broke every agreement that President Reagan had made with Gorbachev and began using US taxpayers’ money to rig and purchase elections in former constituent parts of the Russian/Soviet empire.

The Endowment for Democracy purchased Georgia as a US colony. The affront to Russia was extreme, but at the time Russia was weak. Oligarchs with outside money had grabbed control over Russian resources, and Russia was in dire straits and could not resist American imperialism.

Putin corrected the situation for Russia.

Now using American weapons Georgia for reasons yet to be revealed has violated its own agreement with Russia and attacked South Ossetia, killing in the process Russian peacekeepers. Vladimir Vasilyev, chairman of the Russian State Duma Committee for Security told the press: “The things that were happening in Kosovo, the things that were happening in Iraq – we are now following the same path. The further the situation unfolds, the more the world will understand that Georgia would never be able to do all this without America.”

Yes, without America there would be no war in Ossetia and no war between Russia and its former constituent part.

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quote:

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Yes, without America there would be no war in Ossetia and no war between Russia and its former constituent part.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sven:

Unified Theory of Babble: All threads ultimately lead to the USofA.

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Sven,

The USA is currently the most powerful country on Earth, with 25% of the global economy, and 50% of the global military spending, with bases on every continent.

It does not control all events worldwide, but it is certainly involved in nearly all major international entanglements.

As for Paul Craig Roberts, he is not a member of babble. He is a disenchanted conservative who served in the Reagan administration and was an editor of The National Review, the leading neoconservative publication in the United States.

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]

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AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about significance of this, in terms of nuclear warfare in Russia? Do we have anything to fear along those lines?

COL. SAM GARDINER: Absolutely. Let me just say that if you were to rate how serious the strategic situations have been in the past few years, this would be above Iraq, this would be above Afghanistan, and this would be above Iran.

On little notice to Americans, the Russians learned at the end of the first Gulf War that they couldn’t—they didn’t think they could deal with the United States, given the value and the quality of American precision conventional weapons. The Russians put into their doctrine a statement, and have broadcast it very loudly, that if the United States were to use precision conventional weapons against Russian troops, the Russians would be forced to respond with tactical nuclear weapons. They continue to state this. They practice this in their exercise. They’ve even had exercises that very closely paralleled what went on in Ossetia, where there was an independence movement, they intervene conventionally to put down the independence movement, the United States and NATO responds with conventional air strikes, they then respond with tactical nuclear weapons.

It appears to me as if the Russians were preparing themselves to do that in this case. First of all, I think they believe the United States was going to intervene. At a news conference on Sunday, the deputy national security adviser said we have noted that the Russians have introduced two SS-21 medium-range ballistic missile launchers into South Ossetia. Now, let me say a little footnote about those. They’re both conventional and nuclear. They have a relatively small conventional warhead, however. So, the military significance, if they were to be conventional, was almost trivial compared to what the Russians could deliver with the aircraft that they were using to strike the Georgians.

I think this was a signal. I think this was an implementation on their part of their doctrine. It clearly appears as if they expected the United States to do what they had practiced in their exercises. In fact, this morning, the Russians had an air defense exercise in the southern part of Russia that borders Georgia in which they—it was practicing shooting down incursion aircraft that were incursion into Russia. They were prepared for the United States to intervene, and I think they were prepared—or at least they were wanting to show the United States that their doctrine of the use of tactical nuclear weapons, if the US attacks, was serious, and they needed to take—the United States needs to take Russia very seriously.

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Originally posted by 500_Apples:

As for Paul Craig Roberts, he is not a member of babble.

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Sven sees babblers everywhere...

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Cuba defends peace as an indispensable requisite for the development of all the nations of the world.

During over half a century our country has been a victim to aggressions from the US government forcing us to invest countless resources and energy. We have been firm and persistent in the defense of our country?s sovereignty and support the efforts of the United Nations and its struggle for peace.

A part of our territory has been occupied by force for over 100 years and Cuba has never nor will ever attempt to use violence to recover that part of its territory. Its foreign policy is known and recognized by the international community.

A crisis has emerged which worries other nations, originated from the news of combats that sparked in the Caucasus, on the border with southern Russia.

After the collapse of the former Soviet Union, South Ossetia, annexed by force by forces in Georgia, which never shared its nationality and culture, conserved its condition of autonomous republic with its local authorities and its capital Tskhinvali.

On the dawn of August 8th, Georgia in complicity with the US government launched its forces against South Ossetia attempting to occupy the capital, which was publicly announced the same day of the inauguration of the Beijing Olympic Games.

It is false that Georgia is defending national sovereignty.

The Russian troops were legally in South Ossetia as a force destined to guarantee peace in the region as known by the international community; they did not commit any illegality.

The request of a withdrawal of the invaders is just and our government supports it.

Cuba, threatened by US forces, cannot, as a matter of principle, accept a ceasefire without the withdrawal of the invading forces. If we were attacked by foreign forces we would never allow such a ceasefire.

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Originally posted by 500_Apples:
The USA is currently the most powerful country on Earth, with 25% of the global economy, and 50% of the global military spending, with bases on every continent.

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I did notice that the Russian Army is using some of its more advance equipment on the front lines.

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All threads ultimately lead to the USofA.

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I am still impressed with the level of hypocrisy emanating from Western capitals accusing Russia of committing atrocities for employing the exact same strategies as were used by Israel in Lebanon such a short while ago.

And then, of course, there is the bare hypocrisy of Kosovo where gangsters and murderer were placed into government.

I'm sorry, Sven, but what ever your nation once was - if it ever held a moral high ground - it has ceded it long ago and become everything Americans say they hate -- belligerent, brutal, authoritarian, torturers, and fascistic.

Like Cueball, I don't agree that Russia should be bombing civilian targets inside Georgia. But Georgia committed an act of aggression and actually killed peace keepers they stood along side and then engaged in acts of barbarism against civilians.

The UN would never have acted appropriately. Georgia acted with the tacit knowledge and agreement of both the US and Israel (with advisors on hand).

And let's be clear: this is about energy resources and has always been about energy resources.

Let's see: Lost the war in Iraq, losing the war in Afghanistan, just had a client state devoured in the Caucasus and is still, unbelievably, eying Iran (gluttons for punishment?) -- meanwhile, the economy is crumbling, gas is still above $3.00, and tent cities are now rising as fast as subdivision are emptying. When did Americans become so stupid? Is it television?

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

Does anyone else note that what is probably the most strategically valuable target in Georgia, the pipeline, has not been targeted by the Russians? I'm sure it would have been taken out of commission by now had the Russians been serious about attacking Georgia. Of course, that pipeline is probably the most important thing in Georgia to the US as well. Now, I wonder if Mr. Bush's conversation with Mr. Putin at the Olympics went something like this: "I know you've got to clean up the mess that that crazy guy in Georgia has started, and we'll be bound to cry holy murder about it, but as long as you don't hurt our oil pipeline, we'll stay out of it. Hey, the whole thing might even help my man McCain come November."

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Originally posted by popfro:
Not to minimize things, but I suspect that the costs of maintaining the US Armed Services is considerably higher than most of their rivals - an American soldier (as underpaid as they are) probably costs much more than a Russian soldier, and certainly a lot more than a Chinese soldier.

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Southern Ossetia's population is 80-90% Russian. Georgia is ruled by an ultra-nationalist who has for the last year been loudly declaring his intention to re-annex southern ossetia, which has been effectively independent for the last decade, and which has on several occasions announced it's desire to rejoin Russia. Part of Southern Ossetia's anger with Georgia comes from the fact that Georgia has disallowed regional political parties from taking part in elections. Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili has been busy the last few years labelling anyone who disagrees with him a terrorist and throwing them in jail. His prisons are full of political dissidents.

It is very unlikely that Saakashvilli simply decided to attack Ossetia out of the blue. Given Georgia's desire to join NATO and their close alliance with Washington, as well as their dependence on U.S. military and economic aid, this military action has almost certainly been approved by Washington; Georgia is acting, much like Israel does, as a client state for America ambitions in the region. There are approximately 1,000 U.S. troops engaged in "joint military exercises" with the U.S. military currently.

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Originally posted by Zak Young:
The truth is of course not so simple.

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Things are not always as the MSM presents them.

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Events will unfold and information will come out, but I still have the feeling that the U.S. trainee heading up Georgia misread a signal from the U.S. (giving him a green light) or Russia (indifference) or both. Again, kind of like Saddam Hussein and April Glaspie.

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Zak Young: Southern Ossetia's population is 80-90% Russian.

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Wrong! The population is Ossetian ... which is a distinct ethnic group. Perhaps you are confused because many of them have been reported to have Russian passports.

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Zak: It is very unlikely that Saakashvilli simply decided to attack Ossetia out of the blue. Given Georgia's desire to join NATO and their close alliance with Washington, as well as their dependence on U.S. military and economic aid, this military action has almost certainly been approved by Washington

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Originally posted by Zak Young:
Slavic, Russian, it's all the same.

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I am at a lost of words about this statement.

Truly you can not mean that statement.

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: Webgear ]

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Wrong! The population is Ossetian ... which is a distinct ethnic group. Perhaps you are confused because many of them have been reported to have Russian passports.

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Zak's statement about Slavs was foolish - I assume he was just venting a bit...

But why was it so important for you to say "Wrong!" when he identified the population as mostly Russian? Do you not consider "Russian" to be a national category? Do you think "Russian" is some "ethnic" qualifier?

Do you think Quebeckers are "Canadian"?

Do you recall when ethnic Serbs and Croats and Slovenes and Montenegrans and Bosnians and Albanians identified as "Yugoslavs"?

If South Ossetians identify with Russia and have Russian passports, that's good enough for me. Their blood or genetic lines are of less interest.

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Originally posted by unionist:

Having said that, I agree with the thrust of your comments. I just have serious problems with categorization of people (any people, anywhere) along ethnic lines, unless there is som very clear reason for doing so.

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But why was it so important for you to say "Wrong!" when he identified the population as mostly Russian?

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Saakashvili loses his presence of mind.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
I think the Russians are simply laying down the conditions under which they can protect these populations.

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Originally posted by Webgear:

Can you provide an example?

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Originally posted by Doug:

Too bad nobody similarly protected Chechnyans from Russia.

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KenS: No one disputes that Georgia has completely evacuated from Ossetia.
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You're mistaken, I think. As of yesterday the fighting was still going on inside Ossetia. And the Georgians have, contrary to claims about a ceasefire offer, continued to fight in and around Ossetia. I don't think you're following the events closely enough.

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Even then there was already no fighting in Ossentia, the Georgians had completely withdrawn. Of course there is fighting "around" Oseentia: Russia is attacking on anumber of fronts within Georgia proper. Nor was there any evidence of a continued Georgian artillery bombardment of Ossentia that you also passed on from Russian sources. [I don't doubt for a minute that the Georgians would continue to do so if they could. But they were already defanged when you brought this up.]

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KenS: Russia is giving every indication of going for regime change in Georgia.
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Russia is giving every indication that they are serious about collecting the necessary information regarding the Georgian war crimes over this past weekend.

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I think it was, and remains, too early for me to be saying that Russia seems to be going all the way for regime change in Tblisi. But you've got rose coloured glasses over what is readily apparent about Russia's goals. At a minimum, they are going to teach Georgia [and the US] a lesson that goes FAR beyond what is needed to protect South Ossentia and Abkhazia.

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I think the Russians are simply laying down the conditions under which they can protect these populations.

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Right.

As is usually the case in such situations, military actions which in Russia's security interest [including teaching Georgia and the US a lesson] overlap with protecting a population [who happen to be your own client states or statelets].

But if you think that Russia is only doing what is required to protect Ossentians and Abkhazians, I may have a couple bridges for sale.

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Hey, I'm not defending them in some carte blanche sort of way. But in this case, so far, they're pretty well the good guys. If they had rolled over and let the US client state scratch their tummy, I think the Abkhazians would have been next.

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Spurious.

As many have noted, Saakashvili's ploy in attacking Ossentia was nuts. I'm sure there is a logic to it- and especially a demagoguic domestic political one. But whatever his goals, there was never a chance that Russia was not going to respond as they have.

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After the collapse of the former Soviet Union, South Ossetia, annexed by force by forces in Georgia

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Somebody didn't do their homework at the Ministry in Habana.

Not a big deal, and the official letter is a good one.

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Originally posted by KenS:
As many have noted, Saakashvili's ploy in attacking Ossentia was nuts. I'm sure there is a logic to it- and especially a demagoguic domestic political one.

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Originally posted by Fidel:
The Yanks used to attempt all sorts of baiting of Soviet forces during the cold war. Hundreds of USAF pilots shot down over the USSR were released from Soviet prisons by U.S.-friendly Boris Yeltsin in the 1990's. This is like a game of chess for the colder warriors.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
I've already remarked on this thread, or the previous one, that I thought the Russians were walking a fine line. They seem to be taking steps to prevent the Georgians from reproducing their attack of this past weekend by moving against military targets and then backing off. Both Senaki and Gori were handled in this manner. Their response is very much a measured one. The incendiary claims of genocide or attempted regime change by Saakashvili are just overblown rhetoric intended for spoon-feeding the gullible and so on.

There's no way that Ossetians or Abkhazians can trust the Georgians to govern them in a fair manner in the future. Not after the horrific slaughter, mowing down refugees, shooting peacekeepers, and so on. I think the Russians are simply laying down the conditions under which they can protect these populations.

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Do you have any idea at all how funny this is? It sounds like stuff I used to hear twenty five years ago from the World Peace Council.

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Several Canadian and American commentators have already stated they believe it was a carefully planned attack on Ossetia with the simple goal to provoke Russia into responding militarily.

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Obviously the brain trust in Georgia wanted to provoke a Russian response and see if they could get something out of it.

But "carefully planned" ? ...give me a break.

They did the one thing they could do. Because some of the areas in South Ossentia are Georgian villages, and the residents included refugees from the capital Takhinvali [big surprise: the pogroms go/went both ways], there were Georgian positions around the capital.

It was easy for the Georgians to take their one shot at attacking, and they did. But the follow-up of being immediately chased out was guaranteed.

I'm sure said brain trust had vain hpes they might drag the US into this, but I seriously doubt they expected that.

Whether they did or didn't, they had the same kind of national security interests as Russia is exercsing to engage in attack. As the small player, they're just more desperate.

They know that if they do nothing they have permanently lost Ossentia. It was only a matter of time before they would lose even those positions they had around the capital. It was a pitiful "asset", but it was use it or lose it.

And we've seen hunreds of recent cases of similar demagogues making similar doomed ploys. Big surprise. They can't lose: if nothing else it buys them more time with the citizenry.

Its a real 'carefully planned' ploy when it was undertaken with the Russians already positioned to do exactly as they are now executing: running air protected armoured columns around Gerogia with impunity.

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: KenS ]

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Originally posted by MCunningBC:

Hundreds? I find that hard to believe. In fact, I don't recall any.

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Leading up to release of MIA's, Yeltsin said there were over 260 US pilots brought down over North Korea alone. Remember the U2 incident over Cuba? Gary Powers shot down over Russia?

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by KenS:

Obviously the brain trust in Georgia wanted to provoke a Russian response and see if they could get something out of it.

But "carefully planned" ? ...give me a break.

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Russia is accusing NATO and the U.S. of doing exactly that. Canadian Michel Chossudovsky says the Russians anticipated the attack in advance and are now meeting with NATO leaders to warn them against escalating the matter.

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NATO-US-Israeli assistance under formal military cooperation agreements involves a steady flow of advanced military equipment as well as training and consulting services.

According to US military sources (spokesman for US European Command), the US has more than 100 "military trainers" in Georgia. A Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman "said there were no plans to redeploy the estimated 130 US troops and civilian contractors, who he said were stationed in the area around Tblisi" (AFP, 9 August 2008). In fact, US-NATO military presence in Georgia is on a larger scale to that acknowledged in official statements. The number of NATO personnel in Georgia acting as trainers and military advisers has not been confirmed.

Although not officially a member of NATO, Georgia's military is full integrated into NATO procedures. In 2005, Georgian president proudly announced the inauguration of the first military base, which "fully meets NATO standards". Immediately following the inauguration of the Senakskaya base in west Georgia, Tblisi announced the opening of a second military base at Gori which would also "comply with NATO regulations in terms of military requirements as well as social conditions." (Ria Novosti, 26 May 2006).

The Gori base has been used to train Georgian troops dispatched to fight under US command in the Iraq war theater.

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Originally posted by unionist:
If South Ossetians identify with Russia and have Russian passports, that's good enough for me. Their blood or genetic lines are of less interest.

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What's going on in Georgia, I really don't know and don't pretend to. I do not it's not what you're putting forward.

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Originally posted by Fidel:
Leading up to release of MIA's, Yeltsin said there were over 260 US pilots brought down over North Korea alone. Remember the U2 incident over Cuba? Gary Powers shot down over Russia?

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"Mr. Yeltsin said 716 American servicemen, mostly bomber crews making forced landings on Soviet territory, had been interned during World War II . . . Mr. Yeltsin also said that 262 pilots shot down over North Korea during the Korean War had been taken prisoner and that at least 59 of them had been interrogated by Soviet agents. Other Americans fell into Chinese hands . . . He said further that 9 American planes were shot down over Soviet territory in the 1950's, and that in 1953 at least 12 of the crew members were in Soviet prisons or hospitals."

It says nothing about "hundreds of USAF pilots shot down over the USSR" while "baiting of Soviet forces during the cold war".

Anyway: BBC - Russia "ends Georgia operation"

"Russian President Dmitry Medvedev orders an end to military operations against Georgia after five days of fighting."

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Originally posted by Fidel:

Leading up to release of MIA's, Yeltsin said there were over 260 US pilots brought down over North Korea alone. Remember the U2 incident over Cuba? Gary Powers shot down over Russia?

[ 11 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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By the way, why do people insist on calling Russian forces "peacekeepers"? They had no UN or international mandate to be in South Ossetia or Abkhazia, nor the approval of the Georgian government. Their role was to prop-up secessionist movements and prevent the conflict from being resolved. I'm kind of surprised by the pro-Russian slant here.

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The conflict culminated in 1992 in a de facto secession of South Ossetia and an agreement that established a ceasefire; a peacekeeping force with Ossetian, Georgian, and Russian peacekeepers; and a framework for quadripartite negotiations involving Russia, Georgia, South Ossetia, and North Ossetia, a province of Russia bordering South Ossetia. For the past year Georgian authorities have aimed to change the negotiations format, which they view as skewed against Georgia, and have refused to participate in negotiations.

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As well, if we apply the precedents set and championed by Western nations over the past few years, Russia is acting entirely within its rights. That doesn't mean I support what they're doing.

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A_J: By the way, why do people insist on calling Russian forces "peacekeepers"? They had no UN or international mandate to be in South Ossetia or Abkhazia, nor the approval of the Georgian government.

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The Russian peacekeepers have been keeping the two sides apart and Georgian officials and/or troops were part of the administration of the current arrangements. The Georgians even declared a "ceasefire" ... just before they opened fire on civilians.

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Their role was to prop-up secessionist movements and prevent the conflict from being resolved.

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Originally posted by Sven:
The U.N. is a complete joke.

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Originally posted by Lard Tunderin' Jeezus:
Unfortunately true. And unfortunately, it is a complete joke primarily due to the disrespectful actions of the U.S.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Their role was to prevent a complete ethnic cleansing of South Ossetia by the Georgians.

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Originally posted by A_J:
While I have no doubt that a lot of innocent people died in the fighting, so far we unfortunately only have the word of the Russian government that Georgia was committing genocide in South Ossetia.

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... so far we unfortunately only have the word of the Russian government that Georgia was committing genocide in South Ossetia.

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Bullshit. In fact, there is even an American family who were holidaying in Ossetia who can confirm the horrific Georgian atrocities there.

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As it is, 30,000 of a population of 70,000 [Ossentians] have fled for their lives. I guess by "resolved" you mean extermination of Ossetians, right?

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That many Georgians had also fled their homes before the recent hostilities. Plus far more than that fleeing in Georgia proper since.

Civilians flee when there are hostilities- that in itself does not indicate there is ethnic cleansing.

It would certainly appear based on what we know, and even making allowances for exxagerations, that there probably have been atrocities against civilians perpetrated last week by Georgian troops.

But you continue to promote a very benign view of Russia primarily protecting civilians.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Incidently, according to recent reports, the Georgians are still firing upon the Russian peacekeepers in Ossetia.

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Eyewitnesses report that Georgian tanks literally ran people down and that soldiers took almost all the women to another location. Their fate is still unknown.

Meanwhile, those who didn’t manage to escape found their shelter in a 10th century Orthodox church. Civilians hoped that Georgians of the same faith wouldn’t dare storm the building, one of the oldest of its kind in the country.

But Regnum reports that the Georgian troops set the church on fire and left those inside to perish.

It is the latest in a series of reports of the Georgian military attacking and killing civilians.

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Civilians perish as Georgian troops set church on fire.

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I thought that since U.S. is supporting Georgia there would be some control over the situation in South Ossetia and that there would be a peaceful solution to the conflict. But what is happening there now it’s not just war, but war crimes. George Bush and [Georgian president] Mikhail Saakashvili should answer to the crimes that are being committed – the killing of innocent people, running over by tanks of children and women, throwing grenades into cellars where people are hiding,” Joe Mestas said.

“The war is when military fight against military. But the Georgian army is killing innocent civilians. This is genocide,” he added.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Complaints about the horrific Georgian atrocities and war crimes are being directed to the International Court in The Hague, according to Russia's Prosecutor General Yury Chaika.

This should be interesting.

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Without investigating the matter, I just assumed you were correct when you said yesterday that the Georgians were engaged in ethnic cleansing in S.O.

So, has the U.N. been investigating claims of ethnic cleansing? Or, is it just the Russians claiming that?

Comments of an American tourist don't count, by the way.

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In regard to the Georgian attack on Ossetia and the subsequent events, the deliberations at the Security Council of the UN have shown that the sponsors of the Georgian attack (the US, UK, etc.) reject the idea of the two sides renouncing the use of force. What they wanted was a temporary ceasefire so their client could start the slaughter again at a more convenient time.

The UN deliberations showed who was really for peace, and that was no waste of time at all. If one went by the privately-owned western media reports, this fact completely disappeared.

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Like Russia, the Western powers don't give a fig for civilian casualties or rights.

But you again display your rose coloured glasses.

The West sought to help Gerogia keep its hand in the game. Gerogia by all existing international aggrements had a right to exercise authority over what was its territory. And its a fantasy to expect ANY nation to walk away from that. But they did not have even a remote chance to roll back the carving out of Ossentia and Abkhazia with the citizens there wanting out and Russia egging them on. What minimal chance Georgia had came from the West buttressing their position.

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Originally posted by A_J:
By the way, why do people insist on calling Russian forces "peacekeepers"?

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N.Beltov, when you start the next thread on this subject, who about if you make it a little less slanted? Perhaps:

He also "denounced the peacekeeping agreements with Russia" which confirms that the claim, earlier in this thread by A_J, that there were no such agreements was, indeed, nonsense.

I have not questioned whether there are Gerogian atrocities. I've condemned Gerogia's attack on Ossentia, and not excused the US.

In addition to more detailed reports of horrific Georgian atrocities, burning churches to the ground, running over women and children using tanks, and God knows what else ...

- Saakashvili has announced that Georgia will pull out of the CIS (Commonwealth of Independent States, an alliance of former Soviet republics) and is encouraging other states to do the same;
- Russian President Medvedev has ordered an end to Russia's military operations in Georgia;

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Medvedev has outlined the conditions under which the Russian troops will fully withdraw and peace negotiations can begin.

“We have two conditions,” he said. “First, all Georgian troops should return to their initial positions and be partly demilitarised. Second, Georgia should sign a legally binding document that will provide the non-use of force.”

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This last item is key. Georgia's sponsors at the UN, the US and so on, rejected a resolution precisely because of this condition. They want their client to be able to kill again, with impunity.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
He also "denounced the peacekeeping agreements with Russia" which confirms that the claim, earlier in this thread by A_J, that there were no such agreements was, indeed, nonsense.

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The Georgians and their Yankee sponsors want a ceasefire. Think of it as an opportunity to reload.

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Originally posted by KenS:
Just to be explicit Beltov:

I have not questioned whether there are Gerogian atrocities. I've condemned Gerogia's attack on Ossentia, and not excused the US.

But I'm also calling you an apologist for Russia.

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Georgia should not have resorted to force in South Ossetia (though I await independant confirmation of the alleged attrocities, but have no doubt a lot of people, Georgian and Ossetian, have been killed).

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“We have two conditions,” he said. “First, all Georgian troops should return to their initial positions and be partly demilitarised. Second, Georgia should sign a legally binding document that will provide the non-use of force.”

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And adding the commentary:

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This last item is key. Georgia's sponsors at the UN, the US and so on, rejected a resolution precisely because of this condition. They want their client to be able to kill again, with impunity.

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Medvedev saying "Georgians returning to original positions" is an obfuscating gloss. Russia won't [nor should] allow the Georgians back into Ossetia that were there allowed there according to the peacekeeping agreements. But "original positions" does not include them staying in the Kordi Gorge of Abkhazia- where they will be expelled by Russia if need be.

And no one except those demanding the impossible complete surrender of sovereignty realistically expects Georgia to sign a legal document binding them to not attack what by all international standards is their own territory.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
How do you feel about burning churches to the ground ... with screaming victims still inside? Running over children with tanks?

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Originally posted by unionist:
Zak's post seems pretty much on the mark to me.

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Originally posted by Sven:Comments of an American tourist don't count, by the way.

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Originally posted by Nbeltov:Do you just make up this shit as you go along?

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Originally posted by remind:
. . . they have to keep the perceptual framework they want the general public to believe going, and can't have any truth being given a position here, no matter how small.

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This distinction between a written pledge on the non-use of force versus a ceasefire is key.

The Georgians and their Yankee sponsors want a ceasefire. Think of it as an opportunity to reload.

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I dealt with the spuriousness of this Russian demand for a written pledge [crossposted after this quote].

You are deluded to think there is any chance the Gerogians will 'reload' during a ceasefire to attack again.

There will only be a ceasfire. But Russia has hobbled both Georgia, and the West's [overplayed] ability to help them.

Except Russia is not through hobbling Georgia militarily. The demand for a complete written surrender by Georgia is just the pro forma diplomatic muscle flexing part of the show. It has no substance.

[ 12 August 2008: Message edited by: KenS ]

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What if the invasion of Iraq had been framed in terms of protecting the Kurds and Shi'ites from Hussein's oppression?

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Originally posted by A_J:
I believe the same could be said about the Russian apologists.

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Oh, thank you for affirming the point I made, and indicating your culpability, good of you to do so.

However, I have yet to see "Russian apologists" here.