This article, from late 2006. discusses a native only college....

Before I comment on the idea.....i wanna hear others opinion of this first.....

I mean it sounds good and all for every ethnic group/religon/group can have their own college or university.....

-but-

Doesnt that defeat the purpose of post-secondary education? Isnt it all about growing up, seeing the world as it is, and meeting different people? Lifelong connections (see future employment, friendships, etc etc) are created in a multi cultural setting.

I do see the benefits in an all native environment, however i think they pale in comparison to the benefits of a multi-ethnic setting.

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Originally posted by sidra:
Since when has one's minoritiness been valued in public institutions other than for the five minutes it takes to take your picture to adorn a pamphlet for public and political consumption ?

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whitification -Fidel

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A good chuckle at 5 in the morning.

I checked the links Obscurantis provided and the one regarding the firing is a subscription-only, but I found onother link

http://tinyurl.com/2eq2sw.

Chemainus Native College, just outsiide of Ladysmith

Sechelt Indian Band Education Centre

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Not to defend crookedness from any quarters,

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You should have stopped there. We can agree to disagree about the level of attention non-Aboriginal organizations receive. However, to suggest that it is anything but a good thing that corruption is identified in an Aboriginal organization is wrong-headed.

An area that the Canadian media has failed in has been in its coverage of Aboriginal issues, especially Aboriginal issues that do not have an impact beyond that community.

For instance, the Hamilton Spectator doesn't cover band issues on the Six Nations even though the reserve falls within its natural distribution area. That responsibility falls to the native publications, which, more often than not, are directly supported by the bands.

I doubt many people would argue that it would be ideal if, say, the Niagara Falls Review were owned by the the municipal council of the city of Niagara Falls. Yet, that's the situation on many reserves in Canada (if there is a paper at all, that is). Aboriginal organizations often aren't under a brighter microscope. Actually, they often operate in the dark, with no media attention and therefore no public scrutiny.

As for the question on this thread...if the college is designed to meet certain unique needs of the Aboriginal population and will help to ensure that more First Nations people--especially those that may, for whatever reason, not feel comfortable going to a public institution--get a post-secondary education, then great.

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However, to suggest that it is anything but a good thing that corruption is identified in an Aboriginal organization is wrong-headed. -dgrollins

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Pardon me ? Where and when did I suggest, say or imply that it is a good thing...

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Originally posted by sidra:

Pardon me ? Where and when did I suggest, say or imply that it is a good thing...

What I tried to say is to lament the fact that that Aboriginals' institutions seem to be much more scrutinized than mainstream institutions.

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Well..you put a qualifier on it, which, to me, does suggest that part of you does wonder if it is a good thing. But, whatever. You have indicated above that you do feel it is important that Aboriginal institutions are scrutinized to the same degree as non-Aboriginal institutions (not more than, the same). So, we agree.

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I mean it sounds good and all for every ethnic group/religon/group can have their own college or university.....

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Indigenous Nations are not groups; ethnic, religious or any other. They are sovereign nations that entered into international treaties with the Crown of England, and later Canada. They hold inextinguishable title to their territories and the treaties provide that settlers can live here in peace under certain conditions.

I see the community feeling of a school, like the one in Macaza, QC had in the early 70s, and see how it can be a strong reason to have native colleges. But how does one enter the real world after school without any sense of what the real world is?

Most reserves are desolate places, and they only know (for the most part) other natives. A native school only furthers that segregation further, in my opinion.

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I see the community feeling of a school, like the one in Macaza, QC had in the early 70s, and see how it can be a strong reason to have native colleges. But how does one enter the real world after school without any sense of what the real world is?

Most reserves are desolate places, and they only know (for the most part) other natives. A native school only furthers that segregation further, in my opinion. -SavageInTheCity

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You are talking like if the students are to be totally isolated from the rest of the larger community, the world.

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Maybe the idea is to get natives off of reserves, desolate for a reason, so that native status can be phased out eventually. Would that make it easier for feds and their corporate friends to steal land and valuable resources from under their feet in future ?. -Fidel

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Exactly.

When I grow up and become a Native I would rather be a citizen in my land than a facile prey for the uniformed white boys in Saskatoon and elsewhere, supported by an elitist, corporatist, racist white system.

How many years and efforts did it take for one inquiry to be set into polic hauling Natives off the city and dumping them in the outskirts, summer, winter and all seasons? Why did it take that long ? Because they are "just" Natives.

[ 01 March 2007: Message edited by: sidra ]

Sidra, exactly!

We will be "just" natives in the eyes of society until we show we can succeed in "their" world. Its bad enough that schools take in native students not because of their grades, but because of their nationality, theres a problem.

Creating a all-native college simply exagerrates incompetentance in order to keep student levels high enough to make it sustainable!

[ 01 March 2007: Message edited by: SavageInTheCity ]

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Originally posted by SavageInTheCity:
"How many years and efforts did it take for one inquiry to be set into polic hauling Natives off the city and dumping them in the outskirts, summer, winter and all seasons? Why did it take that long ? Because they are "just" Natives."

Sidra, exactly!

We will be "just" natives in the eyes of society until we show we can succeed in "their" world. Its bad enough that schools take in native students not because of their grades, but because of their nationality, theres a problem.

Creating a all-native college simply exagerrates incompetentance in order to keep student levels high enough to make it sustainable!

[ 01 March 2007: Message edited by: SavageInTheCity ]

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Im all for choices, but shouldnt one stand up and say something when one thinks something is so obviously wrong. Isnt it our responsibility to voice our concerns?

Now Ive voiced my biggest concern about an all Native school:

"Creating a all-native college simply exagerrates incompetentance in order to keep student levels high enough to make it sustainable"

This is the 1 thing that makes me stop and think twice about this. We already live in a society where it is acceptable (even expected) that natives do not succeed in the school system that exists. Is the solution to create a new system that allows less qualified people into fields they should have no business even contemplating? The current school system already does that with the "quota" system in place.

This subject is a touchy one - and Im just giving my 2 cents. Being FN, living on reserve, having visited many communities in Quebec/Ontario, I feel i do have an insight into this......

[ 03 March 2007: Message edited by: SavageInTheCity ]

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Originally posted by Le Téléspectateur:

Indigenous Nations are not groups; ethnic, religious or any other.........to a college run by, and for, Chinese-Canadians, Québécois, Catholics, etc.

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You are very obviously correct, but unfortunately many people in Canada see FN peoples as just another ethic group(s) - including many people who are themselves in ethic groups.

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Originally posted by sidra:
I checked the links Obscurantis provided and the one regarding the firing is a subscription-only, but I found onother link

http://tinyurl.com/2eq2sw.

Not to defend crookedness from any quarters, but it appears to me that the miscoscope aimed at Aboriginal institutions is clear and a few times more powerful than the fogged one aimed at mainstream institutions.

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Originally posted by Sven:
Racial schools make me squeamish.
What's next? A school only for Asians? Only for Whites? Only for Middle Easterners? Only for blacks? Only for XXXs?

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So how about we get rid of

Christian schools

Catholic schools

Private schools only for rich kids

Home schools

Hypocrisy if you do not see is infusing your thinking

[ 06 March 2007: Message edited by: remind ]

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Originally posted by charlieM:
However, as an education student at Lakehead univeristy I know that aboriginals simply learn differently than westerners.

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Originally posted by remind:

So how about we get rid of

Christian schools

Catholic schools

Private schools only for rich kids

Home schools

Hypocrisy if you do not see is infusing your thinking

[ 06 March 2007: Message edited by: remind ]

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I’m not sure I understand your logic of including home schools in that list. People of any race can (and do) home school their kids.

With regard to Christian schools and Catholic schools (not sure why you listed those separately—I would, instead, simply refer to that category as “sectarian schools”), people are not absolutely barred from attending those schools because they have the wrong genes.

As far as private schools for “rich” kids, I’m curious, as a side bar, to know how you define “rich”. My sister is a nurse and her husband works in a parole office (in a non-management position) and they send their kids to a private school. I’m not sure I’d call them “rich”, however. But, in any event, sending their two girls there has nothing to do with their genes their girls possess (in fact, her husband is a POC). Your inclusion of this category is akin to this: New Mercedes can only be purchased by people with a fair amount of money. Therefore, because there are car dealers that sell cars only available to the “rich”, it would be appropriate to have car dealers that only sell to FN, or whites, or blacks. Your analogy is not only inapposite but absurd.

You seem to have no problem with that, but you do with other races.

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Originally posted by remind:
No, there are all sorts of seperate schools, that are for predominently white, people was my point.

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"Predominently" white, yes, but exclusively white? No.

This would be an exlusively FN school.

What I don't understand is an argument in favor of an exclusively FN, when an exclusively XXX (you fill in the XXX with "Asian", "white", "black", "Chicano", etc.) school is hard to justify.

ETA: At a college level, there is even less segregation than at many secondary schools. I can't imagine a "white" or "Asian" or "black" college. There are "historic" black colleges, like Howard University, but there are no "black only" colleges. Here, we're talking about a "FN only" college.

[ 07 March 2007: Message edited by: Sven ]

That said, aboriginal history in Canada is far different than ethnic immigration in Canada. For one thing, the legacy of Canada's efforts to educate Canadian aboriginals is criminal. FN have tried for centuries to take back control over their own education and there's no reason why this should be discouraged.

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Originally posted by Catchfire:
At the end of the day, however, it is unlikely, based on my limited legal knowledge, that a school prohibiting any non-aboriginal students would pass any charter challenge.

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I am not sure Catchfire. In Ontario Catholic Elementary schools only have Catholic Students. The rules call for a student to have a baptismal certificate to go. Now the Catholic High Schools are open to all.

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I think those are very important clarifications, zazzo and Catchfire. I have no objection whatsoever to the creation of a college that has a unique philosophy or approach—as long as it's not exclusionary. In fact, I think it's beneficial and healthy to have more educational choices like that. If there was such a college here locally, I might very well be interested in taking some of the courses.

Thanks for making those observations...

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Hey Sven, no one asked you for your objections in the first place. Aren't you a lawyer? Have you ever reviewed the Two Row Wampum Belt? I'm guessing no.

You don't know the first thing about Indigenous-settler history or law. You are most unwelcome in your continued trolling of the the Aboriginal forum with your stupid comments.

You know that your white-supremacist views are unwelcomed in a forum that is supposed to be about decolonization but you refuse to get a life.

Go be squeamish somewhere else.

[ 07 March 2007: Message edited by: Le Téléspectateur ]

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Originally posted by Le Téléspectateur:
You know that your white-supremacist views...

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Originally posted by Sven:
Fuck you. That's simply outrageous.

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No it is not, you apparently did not get it when I stated in response to your question to me of: "do you have no objections to xxxx type of schools" and I responded it is their choice and none of my business.

You have absolutely NO right to give approval or objection.

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Originally posted by remind:
You have absolutely NO right to give approval or objection.

Especially when you support the segregation of other people's schools, and particularily when those other people's schools are actually in fact "white" schools.

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Number One: I don't advocate racial segregation in schools. To read that into my postings is your failing, my friend, not mine.

Number Two: If there are, in fact, "white" colleges, as you appear to be claiming, then I'll let your own words stand as a barrier to you having any right to advocate against the establishment of such colleges:

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Originally posted by remind:
I have as much opinion about that as I would any other group starting their own college.

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In fact, perhaps everyone could? These discussions don't need to be so hostile.

[ 07 March 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Originally posted by Michelle:
[QB]remind, he hasn't said that he supports segregation in other schools. Would you mind dialing it back a bit, please? And perhaps stop looking for the absolute worst interpretation of what other people are saying?

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Michelle, if you support the idea of other types of private schools, you are indeed supporting segregation, as what are they except segregated schools? May it be along religious, gender, or socio-economic lines?

What did I actually say that needs dialing back? seriously? Please do tell me?

Is this NOT the aboriginal forum where things are supposed to be addressed from a pro- FN viewpoint?

How do you think it would go over in the feminist forum, if someone male was asked if he objected to exclusive female groups, either educational or otherwise? Or if a male said it made him "queasy" that females were wanting female only programs and educational services?

Also Michelle, Sven has made it a habit to drop into the Aboriginal Issues and Culture form and insist on his right to say things that are based in a firm misunderstanding of a situation that is greater than his personal opinion.

In fact, FN Babblers have LEFT BABBLE because of Sven and other people who insist on using the Aboriginal Issues and Culture form to assert their right to free speech.

A number of Babblers, including myself, have expressed their view that babble (mods and members) is failing at maintaining this form as a place of solidarity, respect and progress towards a decolonized Canada.

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Originally posted by Sven:
Number One: I don't advocate racial segregation in schools. To read that into my postings is your failing, my friend, not mine.

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Never said you advocated racial segregation my friend, I said you supported the right to exist other segregated schools, and that they happen to be predominently white.

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Number Two: If there are, in fact, "white" colleges, as you appear to be claiming, then I'll let your own words stand as a barrier to you having any right to advocate against the establishment of such colleges:

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I never advocated against the establishment of any colleges, nor the establishment of any colleges

And by white colleges, I actually mean geared toward white colonialistic learning and teaching.

yes, I said this:

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I have as much opinion about that as I would any other group starting their own college.

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Of course i support this idea, as it comes as a solution from within the Aboriginal community. There won't be general consensus that this is a good idea, of course, but SITC, I will ask you to ponder why you assume that such a school will automatically have lower academic standards, as if that's the only way that FN students will succeed there. I think that if you're told you're stupid and inferior long enough, anyone would begin to believe it. That doesn't, however, make it true.

Here's an example of "not getting it" as an "outside focussed" attempt (and fail) to achieve good liberal goals.

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While aboriginal students in Toronto are twice as likely to drop out as their non-Indian peers, according to a report released yesterday by Statistics Canada, they remain a largely invisible group in one of the most diverse school systems in the world.

The Toronto District School Board is using a $470,000 grant from Queen's Park to lift the mystery surrounding the booming ranks of Indian students and find out where they live, how they learn and what they need in order to do better in school.

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Toronto has about 70,000 aboriginals, the largest Indian population of any Canadian city.

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Queen's Park gave the board $220,000 to determine a sensitive way to gather data on Indian students and design incentive programs that will help keep struggling Indian teens in school — part of the province's plan to pass legislation this fall requiring all students to stay in school until they are 18.

The province gave the board another $250,000 to draw up lessons for elementary social studies courses that include the Indian peoples' point of view. Ontario has revised the elementary curriculum to include native issues in every grade, rather than only Grade 6.

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"This is the complaint I hear most often from First Nations parents, that teachers still use textbooks with outdated stereotypes and racist comments are still heard in the schoolyard, and there is just a lack of sensitivity about some of the social issues facing these families," said Cathy Pawis, the board's first central principal responsible for aboriginal education, an Ojibwa from the Alliston area.

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Board Tries to Reach Natives: the TO Star

[ 08 March 2007: Message edited by: bigcitygal ]

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Originally posted by Le Téléspectateur:
I called Sven's views white-supremacist, which they are, not him.

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Originally posted by Le Téléspectateur:
I called Sven's views white-supremacist, which they are, not him.

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If a person has holds racist views, is the person not, by definition, racist? If a person, for example, believes that blacks are inferior, isn't that the very essence of being a racist?

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Originally posted by remind:
I have as much opinion about that as I would any other group starting their own college.

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Originally posted by remind:
Which means I have NO opinion, as I do not perceive it is my right to have opinions about what other peoples are choosing to do. I was quite clear that I had NO opinion whatsoever other than all have a right to do whatever they want.

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So, if the David Dukes of this world want to establish white-only schools, etc., you have "NO opinion whatsoever other than all have a right to do whatever they want"?

You may choose to voluntarily strip yourself of the right to object to such things. I don't.

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Originally posted by zazzo:
Students are there [at native schools] to learn skills, to learn their history, language and culture, and be among those that they are comfortable with,

and to be out of the racism that so often is a part of the western university experience (I know, for I have been there). Seems to be the same reasons, that

black schools were established.

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Perhaps the experience of historically Black universities and schools in the US might give some insights into the prospects for Native universities and other Native schools in Canada (and/or the US). I looked into Howard University a little bit, because it's the most well-known historically black university in the United States. I was surprised to discover that it was established by an Act of Congress in 1867: I had previously mistakenly believed that it was privately established. (See here.)

Howard has a 187 page PDF booklet available here. Here's their mission statement: "The mission of Howard University as a comprehensive, research-oriented, predominantly African-American university is to provide an educational experience of exceptional quality at reasonable cost to students of high academic potential. Particular emphasis is placed upon providing educational opportunities for African-American men and women and for other historically disenfranchised groups. Furthermore, Howard University is dedicated to attracting, sustaining, and developing a cadre of faculty who, through their teaching and research, are committed to producing distinguished and compassionate graduates who seek solutions to human and social problems in the United States and throughout the world." And here is their policy on equal opportunity: "The University does not discriminate on the basis of race, color, national or ethnic origin, gender, marital status, religion, handicap, age, sexual preference, political affiliation or any other basis prohibited by Federal or District of Columbia law. This policy covers administration of University educational policies, admissions policies, scholarship and
loan programs, other University-administered programs, and employment."

Interestingly enough, the "Facts" booklet has a fair bit of demographic information on Howard students, but none relating to race. So I don't know what percentage of students there are white or native or other non-black. The president of Howard does have this to say: "... black institutions were never segregated. The first four Howard matriculants were white. We've never rejected white students wanting to attend. Those seeking to share our unique cultural values should be able to do so while still getting a terrific education. They'll be in a nurturing environment with a shared cultural ethos." (For context, see here.)

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Perhaps the experience of historically Black universities and schools in the US might give some insights into the prospects for Native universities and other Native schools in Canada (and/or the US). I looked into Howard University a little bit, because it's the most well-known historically black university in the United States. I was surprised to discover that it was established by an Act of Congress in 1867: I had previously mistakenly believed that it was privately established. (See here.)

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It seems necessary to call attention again to the fact that Indigenous people and nations in North America are not in the same situation as black folks, or any other racialized groups.

Canada was created through treaties with Indigenous nations that provided that a settler state and the Indigenous nations could exist on this land and that they would not interfere with each other's business.

Settlers have not upheld their responsibilities and in fact have carried out a sustained (well documented) policy of genocide. This process continues and is supported by the idea that Indigenous people are "just another minority group" in the Great White Canada.

[ 08 March 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]

"zazzo and Catchfire’s observations that that is not the intent of the proposed schools are well-taken (the colleges would be open to all) and, so, further debate about the exclusionary aspects of such schools will only serve to derail this thread entirely. "

I feel his input into this thread wasnt inflammatory. The imput provided by Sven was sound. If Sven has been a pest in past Aboriginal Issues threads, I understand. However, in this thread, his input was appreciated by this Algonquin.

Not trying to take sides, just saying, nothing offensive here to me....

ETA remind
Is this NOT the aboriginal forum where things are supposed to be addressed from a pro- FN viewpoint?

Pro-FN? Im as Pro-FN as they come, and when I first read the article, I assumed a FN only school. Therefore, Im against that idea, and IM a FN. So does that make me anti-FN? Just asking,,,,

SITC

[ 08 March 2007: Message edited by: SavageInTheCity ]

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Sven, it's already been explained to you in this thread that no one is talking about making the schools exclusively First Nations.

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I’m not debating that. I’ve said (twice) that this proposed plan of creating a non-exclusionary FN-created college is a great idea…and that I think it would be a place that I’d be interested in taking some courses from if there was such a college here locally.

That being said, remind continued, “You have absolutely NO right to give approval or objection.”

Huh?

I have no right to express an opinion about a subject that SITC expressly invited opinions on in his OP?

With regard to my last post to remind: I was challenging the unqualified breadth of his statements: “I have as much opinion about that as I would ANY other group starting their own college.” (my emphasis) and “I had NO opinion whatsoever other than all have a right to do whatever they want.”

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Originally posted by SavageInTheCity:
I feel his input into this thread wasnt inflammatory. The imput provided by Sven was sound. If Sven has been a pest in past Aboriginal Issues threads, I understand. However, in this thread, his input was appreciated by this Algonquin.

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Thanks, SITC.

I guess my fundamental dilemma is that I have a very genuine interest in FN (and American Indian) issues but, as I do with anything I am trying to learn about, I ask questions and challenge statements that people assert to be "truth".

If, for example, someone flatly states, "FN are sovereign nations", I'm going to ask questions and challenge that. Does a FN tribe possess the sovereignty of a Canada or China? No. Does it possess elements of sovereignty? Absolutely. The question then becomes: What are the characteristics of the sovereignty that FN tribes possess and what are the limits of those sovereign rights relative to a Canada or a China?

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Racial schools make me squeamish.
What's next? A school only for Asians? Only for Whites? Only for Middle Easterners? Only for blacks? Only for XXXs?

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Then I made a list of other schools that had there own segregational standards, and asked you if you supported those.

Then you said:

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So, getting back to my original list, you would have no objection to having schools set up for Asian kids, white kids, black kids, etc., etc.?

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To which I responded:

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It would be their choice of attendance to a select school, or non-attendance, and none of my business.

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Just what you did not get about my stating it is their choice of attendance, I do not know. But you carried on about whether I objected to them or not. Which is where I took exception to your use of objected, you have no right to object to other people's attendance at any type of school, and neither do I.

And everything I said from the point of it being their choice to attend or not was just that. I have no opinion about FN's schools being set up and people attending, just as I do not for Catholic schools, or Jewish schools or private schools.

You somehow have tried to make it appear as if, I am abdicating my right to an opinion. And I said you have no right to have an opinion, on where people attend or not, again it is none of your business.

Then you went on a whole different tangent about David Duke and white supremists, and asking if I would be fine with that. What does it have to do with anything that I have said about their business to set up schools and attend whatever they want? It has nothing.

It would've been nice had you actually read the article, as everyone responded to you as if you had, and were being in opposition by your use of "squeamish" and stating that segregated schools were wrong, when no one was even discussing them from that perspective of completely segregated. It is NOT our fault you failed to read the article, and yet felt compelled to assume and then make a negative response based upon nothing that was being discussed. That you are bashing others for your failure is incorrect.

How about you review the whole thread again, and stop trying to change people's words into what you want, so you can assault them with your wrong viewpoint on what they said.

[ 08 March 2007: Message edited by: remind ]

"If, for example, someone flatly states, "FN are sovereign nations", I'm going to ask questions and challenge that. Does a FN tribe possess the sovereignty of a Canada or China? No. Does it possess elements of sovereignty? Absolutely. The question then becomes: What are the characteristics of the sovereignty that FN tribes possess and what are the limits of those sovereign rights relative to a Canada or a China?"

Sovereignty - European word (French actually) - defined by them, imposed on us.
In political theory, the ultimate authority in the decision-making process of the state and in the maintenance of order.

In political theory, the ultimate authority in the decision-making process of the state and in the maintenance of order.

I think this conversation should move over to PM, as were off topic here a whole bunch! I could go on for a while, but wrong place, wrong time!

[ 08 March 2007: Message edited by: SavageInTheCity ]

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
Well, there goes another thread on FN peoples down the drain.

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Frankly, I pin the breakdown squarely on those few posters who simply insist on "shouting down" questions or thoughts with, essentially, "You have no right to have an opinion about this" if questions or statements stray the least little bit from the "party line" (even if some of the concerns reflected in my posts were the same as, or very similar to, uncertainties expressed by some FNs here).

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Originally posted by SavageInTheCity:
I think this conversation should move over to PM, as were off topic here a whole bunch! I could go on for a while, but wrong place, wrong time!

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http://www.collegefund.org/news/advertising.html

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Originally posted by Sven:
And, I would welcome a PM discussion or a discussion on this subject on a different thread.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
.... it certainly shouldn't be the case that a white guy demands that everyone in the First Nations forum answer his questions about reverse racism...

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Sven: your history in these kinds of threads has made you somewhat of a target, and I'm not sure that's unjustified. You have been told repeatedly that "reverse-racism" or equivalency arguments are unacceptable in these forums, yet you persist, claiming ignorance. Why is that? remind is certainly turning the screws in you, but there is a great deal of frustration with your obstinate refusal to understand that you can't just reverse the colours of an AR-dilemma to undermine it.

The fact is that there is a great deal of support for an exclusionary FN school, because of history, power dynamics and culture that simply don't correlate to the same question about whites. This has been explained to you again and again, yet you keep bringing up the same re-hashed arguments. As a result, even when you add a certain degree of delicacy, anything that slightly resembles these kinds of arguments is a magnet for antagonism. Do you understand why this is?

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Originally posted by Catchfire:
Martha: it has come out in previous discussions on FN and racism.

.......
Personally, I think Whitehorse would be an ideal city for an Aboriginal University. It would attract young people to the North, it would greatly benefit from the large indigenous population, and it would organically educate a region that currently has no local access to higher education.

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This is probably a dumb, but if there are 70,000 FN people in the GTA and probably many more nearby, why Whitehorse?. Any graduates would probably be heading to Toronto, Calgary or a similiar place to look for work anyway.

The thought that quickly comes to mind, however, is how do we train FN people in the more technical and science oriented occupations, such as the various forms of engineers, computer systems architectures, computer chip design, automotive design, etc, etc.

These type of areas are where future jobs will probably be, especially as our work force becomes more and more technical.

[ 09 March 2007: Message edited by: oreobw ]

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Originally posted by oreobw:
The thought that quickly comes to mind, however, is how do we train FN people in the more technical and science oriented occupations, such as the various forms of engineers, computer systems architectures, computer chip design, automotive design, etc, etc.

These type of areas are where future jobs will probably be, especially as our work force becomes more and more technical.

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The thought that quickly comes to mind, however, is how do we train FN people in the more technical and science oriented occupations, such as the various forms of engineers, computer systems architectures, computer chip design, automotive design, etc, etc.

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I don't know. How do you train white people to do that? Throw them some goodies and treats for leanin' so well? Some gold stars?

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Originally posted by SavageInTheCity:
I guess its a modern miracle that we can operate a computer-thingy too!

Umm, did you also know they have the INTERNET on computer-thingies now?

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No need for the bs, I was not talking about operating a computer but designing the chips that make up the computer, quite a different topic and requiring several years of technical education (same for the other jobs I mentioned).

On the other hand, I was not trying to insult anyone.

So what did I miss in the article about different ways of learning science/technical subjects? Was the article out to lunch or did I mis-read it?

PS: I just re-read the article, I think I got it about right the first time.

[ 09 March 2007: Message edited by: oreobw ]

What "different" ways of learning science are there?

Either you learn the material or you dont! Ive been in both high school systems (Canadian High School and -gasp- an all-native high school) and can honestly tell you the teaching methods werent entirely different. The smaller classes on-reserve helped troubled students (those who wanted help anyways). At my on-reserve high school, computers/technology was an option/the alternative was Algonquin language.

Further up, the question was posed, would an all-native school stand up to a charter challenge? On-reserve schools (elementary an high school) on-reserve ARE exlusionary, and its a big reason Im against exclusionary schools. Especially at the lower levels. It teaches all sides that exclusion is OK! There was recently a racial fight here between 40 kids (seeHere).

No, I'm not offended,and I was not trying to troll or bug anyone.

I don't have a strong opinion re separate schools, so I won't comment without some thought.

I was reacting to the article posted by northern-women re the different way FN people view science training and trying to relate that to highly technical fields where 4 -5 years are needed on top of a BSc.

quote:

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No need for the bs, I was not talking about operating a computer but designing the chips that make up the computer, quite a different topic and requiring several years of technical education (same for the other jobs I mentioned).

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SITC is way too nice to you. You are trolling and your comments are offensive. Are all white people the same? Do you all suffer from some freaking brian tumor called BS covert racism? Get a fucking grip. There is zero reason why FN people cannot 'learn' the same way as anyone else.

quote:

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Originally posted by Stargazer:

I don't know. How do you train white people to do that? Throw them some goodies and treats for leanin' so well? Some gold stars?

Jeezus Christ, now I've read everything.

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Jeezus Christ to you too.

If we are having trouble with FN students doing basic science in grade 8 then how do we get them through a BSc in chemistry/physics and then on to an advanced degree in electrical engineering specializing in computer circuit design (as an example)?

That is what I was wondering about. Obviously, we need to fix the system.

[ 09 March 2007: Message edited by: oreobw ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Stargazer:

SITC is way too nice to you. You are trolling and your comments are offensive. Are all white people the same? Do you all suffer from some freaking brian tumor called BS covert racism? Get a fucking grip. There is zero reason why FN people cannot 'learn' the same way as anyone else.

This is my last post in this forum. I am so sick and tired of the insults and Bullshit.

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I am not trolling and if you think my comments are offensive, that is unfortunate.

However, I obviously said something that is politically very incorrect, so why not explain to me what you object to (without the insults).

PS: I didn't say FN people couldn't learn the same as anyone else, I always assumed FN people did learn the same as anyone. The article posted by northern-woman said FN people approached science education differently and this caused learning problems (this was news to me).

[ 09 March 2007: Message edited by: oreobw ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
This is my last post in this forum. I am so sick and tired of the insults and Bullshit.

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I resemble your discription,but hopefully you do not mean all of babble, and your viewpoint is in important in the aboriginal issue forum too, if you just mean it and not the whole forum.

I don't understand why people feel such a strong need to keep posting again and again in forums where they are clearly not understanding or following the mandate.

Why not PM me and tell me exactly what I said was wrong or inappropriate. I would really apppreciate it.

Please read the article posted by northern-woman that prompted my comments if you have time.

quote:

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Originally posted by Catchfire:
Sven:

The fact is that there is a great deal of support for an exclusionary FN school, because of history, power dynamics and culture that simply don't correlate to the same question about whites. This has been explained to you again and again, yet you keep bringing up the same re-hashed arguments. As a result, even when you add a certain degree of delicacy, anything that slightly resembles these kinds of arguments is a magnet for antagonism. Do you understand why this is?

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quote:

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Originally posted by SavageInTheCity:
Further up, the question was posed, would an all-native school stand up to a charter challenge? On-reserve schools (elementary an high school) on-reserve ARE exlusionary, and its a big reason Im against exclusionary schools. Especially at the lower levels. It teaches all sides that exclusion is OK!

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SITC, was speaking about lower grade levels and exclusionary dynamics that occur on reservations, that on a surface level, could appear to support the negation of FN's post secondary schools.

However, exclusiveness of FN's primary, and middle/high schools is not because of FN planning, but because of the remoteness of the reserves.

Remoteness of reserves, are the ultimate creation of whitemen for the purposes of *gasp* exclusion.

Exclusion of white children in schools in a Reserve setting nowadays, is a by-product of whiteman's exclusionary actions, not a created, nor purposeful action by FN's. So, people need not go away and say: "see FN's again have more rights and freedoms than the rest of Canadians."

Beyond that, it appears that some are still not getting the fact that the proposed university is NOT being planned as an exclusionary institution.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sven:
I'll leave it to SITC to clarify his own words about schools and exclusivity.

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Really? Why now? After all, you used/expropriated his words for a response to catchfire's post. So really, what you did was took his voice, then used it for your own purposes to rebutt what you decided catchfire was saying. And now, you want to say you will allow SITC to clarify them, after you used them.

Also, I never made any attempt to clarify's SITC words. I re-stated that he noted the exclusionary state of being of Reserve schools in the early grade levels. And then I noted this is a truth on many Reserves.

However, I went further to note, and this has nothing to do with SITC commentary, why that exclusionary state exists and how that it came about. Neither of which have anything to do with SITC's later commentary or even utilizing his words.

The conclusion was also my personal observation. Which was; seeing as how this university, that is the topic under discussion, is not seeking exclusionary status, any conversation along those lines, are non-applicable as it is not a reality. And therefore it is only hypothetical non-event.

Moreover, it has also been pointed out here, there are already numerous FN's postsecondary schools that are in existence, and some have been for sometime, that are also non-exclusionary.

So again, why would there be any objections to any such schools? Or indeed any opinion at all, other than a general: "great, the more schools there are, the better for everyone".

And then going so far as to object, when other people say there should be no objections and that they have none, is quite....

[ 10 March 2007: Message edited by: remind ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Catchfire:
Sven are you willfully ignoring the content of my post to you? There is also nothing in what I said that is contradicted by SITC. I was not making a case for exclusively FN schools, merely stating that the prospect wasn't entirely ludicrous. But you probably knew that and are ignoring it anyway. I thought there was a chance of you being legit, but I was wrong. Get bent.

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Look, Catchfire, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that there is a lot of support for schools that are exclusively FN, correct? Not that you support them, but that there is support for them, right?

Now, when I raised concerns about FN-exclusive schools (something that SITC also raised concerns about), I get admonished.

I'm not interested in that.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sven:
Okay, remind, it looks like all you want to do is have an ongoing pissing match.

I'm not interested in that.

But, if you want to continue by yourself, fine. Just mind the direction of the wind.

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Remind said
"However, exclusiveness of FN's primary, and middle/high schools is not because of FN planning, but because of the remoteness of the reserves.
Remoteness of reserves, are the ultimate creation of whitemen for the purposes of *gasp* exclusion."

Remind, you are absolutely right. The remoteness and isolation is a direct creation of colonization. I agree. But at what point do we stop and say "Listen, what happened in the past sucks! But now, as a people, we've got to figure out a way for our culture/governance systems to evolve. Lets put on our pants and become autonomous. Because lets face it: The money is going to stop one day!"

Remind again-
"Beyond that, it appears that some are still not getting the fact that the proposed university is NOT being planned as an exclusionary institution."

From the article - “A native-only CEGEP will be very good for students who are wary of the traditional set-up,” she said. Horne-Miller argued that even if the initial draw for some students is the comfortable social context of a native-only school, it will create opportunities for students to develop transferable life – and work – skills.
“Everyone needs a way to make life for themselves. With the history of aboriginal people, how can you think that we would not want to have our own CEGEP, to control our own education?” she asked.

I can understand, from the article, how one could think that we are talking about an exclusionary school. When I started the thread, my understanding was that of an native-only school. That being said, the thread took a turn, and threads, like society, must evolve in order to stay relevant.

Speaking of a native school that isnt exclusionary Remind said:

"So again, why would there be any objections to any such schools? Or indeed any opinion at all, other than a general: "great, the more schools there are, the better for everyone".

My sentiments exactly.

___________________________________

Sven,

I think my words speak for themselves for the large part. I DID stick up for you, when I thought it right. Please dont make me re-think my position.
"I'll leave it to SITC to clarify his own words about schools and exclusivity."
What do you want clarified? Rather, what would you like me to clarify for others?

PM me, Id be glad to elaborate on any questions you may have about my views. But I will not force a discussion on exclusionary schools in a thread where the postings have moved past that. You want dialogue on that topic - Start a new thread!

Edited for spelling

[ 10 March 2007: Message edited by: SavageInTheCity ]

quote:

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Originally posted by SavageInTheCity:
..you are absolutely right. The remoteness and isolation is a direct creation of colonization. I agree. But at what point do we stop and say "Listen, what happened in the past sucks! But now, as a people, we've got to figure out a way for our culture/governance systems to evolve. Lets put on our pants and become autonomous. Because lets face it: The money is going to stop one day!"

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SITC, that is not so 2 dimensional either.

There is nothing at all wrong with saying that, in fact there is everything correct about it. But it is not that simplistic when ALL things are considered.

For example here are some things that have to be considered:

1. Outstanding legal obligations that require closure, and that is a requirement that has to be timely.

2. Changing the system, for all to accommodate all. No small task, when people cannot even agree there are racial biases that need to be eradicated before consensus can occur. However, the racial biases have to be acknowledged first, before they can be overcome, from any side.

3. FN Bands are putting their pants on and becoming autonomous, but for some it is more problematic than others, and those problems need to be addressed internally, before ways to autonomy can even be discussed and implimented at the Band level.

4. Many isolated Reserves are still isolated, exclusion is going to continue to exist because of that isolation. The options to try to end that exclusion, if anyone would want to even, are worse than the exclusion itself. So, the reality is, isolated Bands are in a different category, than proximal to high density population Bands. Matter of fact those isolated Bands, being the Nations they are, have every right to uphold their exclusionary state of living, if they so chose. And that will continue to be an issue with certain segments of the population, even though they have no right to hold it as an issue.

5. Successful living in peaceful co-existence, that would assist in lessening exclusion, cannot continue to be judged based upon the protestant work ethic model, in order to end exclusion.

The current model of assimulation to a cultural norm, where worth is denoted by human capital with high yeild productivity that alleges to benefit the greater whole economically, all the while diminishing the environment and the majority's social and economical well being, should not and cannot be used to try to end exclusion. The change that is required to end this systemic model, is not something FN's can change, it is something that the dominant culture must change within themselves. But first there must be a will to do so. And that again is a process of education and awareness of other lifestyle forms, such as egalitarian that could be utilized.

6. People fear the unknown. Over coming this is a priority.

People are of course moving along in these areas that are problematic, with a vague understanding of a possible end result. And some of the changes occuring are pragmatic exclusionary actions and that IMV is a good thing when it is reason based and a solution.

For example:

In Victoria, there is now medical programs to train care attendants for Continuing Care facilities that are baased solely upon elder FN's requirements. As more elders move from a isolated Reserve situation, that cannot accommodate their needs, to an urban setting of Continuing Care, there was a clash in care giving requirements occurring, based upon cultural clashes.

It was recognized, that the elders could not be expected to try to assimulate to a differnt norm, and that the current system had to change to adapt to the elders cultural requirements to meet their care needs.

"1. Outstanding legal obligations that require closure, and that is a requirement that has to be timely."

Their legal obligations should be looked at from a global approach, as I believe closure from the past equals progress. Land claims, in quebec anyways, are being looked at in this approach. Take all our claims (speaking of my rez), and settle em all in one shot. Why cant we do this with our legal "problems". Canada wants these to end as much as I do!

"2. Changing the system, for all to accommodate all. No small task, when people cannot even agree there are racial biases that need to be eradicated before consensus can occur. However, the racial biases have to be acknowledged first, before they can be overcome, from any side."

I agree, for the most part, native leaders cant agree on lunch. But we can move past this. (I apologize in advance for the next statement). Once the older generation (resedential schools generation) has passed on, we will be more apt as a people to move forward. The anger and passion of which most of our leaders grew up harnessing will be gone, and things can be looked at in a new perspective. Im not wishing harm on our elders, as they ARE VERY IMPORTANT to our culture. However, as we keep trying to settle past injustices (which must be addressed), we allow this past to stop us from addressing the future!

"3. FN Bands are putting their pants on and becoming autonomous, but for some it is more problematic than others, and those problems need to be addressed internally, before ways to autonomy can even be discussed and implimented at the Band level."

I agree, no comment. We do have a ways to go. But standing pat is not an option!

"4. Many isolated Reserves are still isolated, exclusion is going to continue to exist because of that isolation. The options to try to end that exclusion, if anyone would want to even, are worse than the exclusion itself. So, the reality is, isolated Bands are in a different category, than proximal to high density population Bands. Matter of fact those isolated Bands, being the Nations they are, have every right to uphold their exclusionary state of living, if they so chose. And that will continue to be an issue with certain segments of the population, even though they have no right to hold it as an issue."

My best friend said it best ( i really felt put in my place when he said this, just like I did when I read your post the first time) - Japanese Canadians have Japan, French Canadians have France, basically immigrants have roots and culture elsewhere in the world. We have our little piece of land, and nothing else. If we want to stay secluded, its an option, sure.

I skipped # 5 remind, as I dont have any response, and I do agree with you. The system does have to change!

"6. People fear the unknown. Over coming this is a priority."

We should fear the KNOWN, as its been kicking us in the ass for more than 500 years. The Wampum belts tell us whats coming. Its not good! Fear the Unknown? I really am more scared of the status-quo.

Stephen Colbert said it best when it comes to my own personal views on a lot of native issues.

"That's where the truth lies, right down here in the gut. Do you know you have more nerve endings in your gut than you have in your head? You can look it up. Now, I know some of you are going to say, "I did look it up, and that's not true." That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut. I did."

And Now for todays Word:

Remind - as in SITC, get REMINDED about your past, and quit babbling on and on about things your know practically nothing about. You do read up on a lot of issues, but REMIND yourself, youre only 25 and have a lot of things to learn.