http://www.rtfcam.org/report/volume_21/No_3/article_4.htm

Is creating unsafe work conditions for which many illegal immigrants in particular have no legal rights to retribution...acceptable?

http://lists.iww.org/pipermail/iww-news/2005-March/008240.html

Are abhorent living conditions these workers endure acceptable? Even lean-to's or Caves...acceptable?
http://www.ufw.org/nythsg.htm

I don't believe it's racist to bring this issues to the forefront. Do you?

[ 08 May 2005: Message edited by: Saffron ]

The issue of illegal Mexican immigrants is not particularly relevant to Canada, as we have no equivalent situation in which a long border of ours lies next to a vastly poorer (per capita) and less developed country with no public health system and very little social security net. But I digress from answering your question.

Yes, it is racist to discuss illegal immigrants from Mexico in the particular way as framed by your post, and hopefully I will explain why.

The economy of the U.S. is dependent on low-paid wages, particularly in the areas of farming and harvesting. This is also somewhat true of Canada. Such back-breaking and seasonal work is done by non-residents, as the pay is crap, but at least it's a job.

U.S. employers, farmers in particular, benefit from and encourage the hiring of illegal Mexican workers, as they work with very tight overheads and few other options such as subsidies from the government. Further, this condition has been allowed to go on because those who "suffer" from it don't complain, as they need the money, and have no legal recourse to complain even if they did.

Such workers are treated to horrendous physical realities, racism on the job, over-crowded living quarters while in the U.S., etc. At the same time, the economy is dependent on them so that it can keep prices low and continue "business as usual".

It's not surprising to me that the conservative media would take a fake-compassionate angle on this issue, as that's one tactic the right utilizes to appear to be examining an issue without challenging the larger structure that it functions within. The right-wing cries crocodile tears for the individuals who have suffered, using such deaths to demonstrate their own fake-compassion, while continuing to do nothing to change the circumstances under which these deaths continue.

Of course those wages, working conditions and living conditions are unacceptable, I would never deny that. But what are the solutions? Wanna see a neo-con/neo-liberal's head spin off? How about this suggestion: Open the borders.

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Is allowing millions of Mexicans to trapse across desert terrain often becoming lost, dehydrated, and sometimes dieing.....the answer?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cartman:
I have been watching Fox News lately to see what all the hoopla is about. It seems to me that the right in the US is trying to create a moral panic about illegal immigrants. When you look at the reporting, they do not talk about their contribution to the US economy or the horrific travels they make, the focus is on drugs, theft, murder and rape. Discussing illegal immigration is fine, but the context in which it is usually raised is certainly racist. My wife was sickened at O'Reilly's reporting on the matter and demanded that I change the channel.

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Well good on your wife! Watching FNC corrodes the brain and heart.

But seriously you have to know thy enemy every now and then - for as long as I can stand it.

Anyway, I keep wondering what the endgame of this growing campaign of demonization of Mexican immigrants is? The GOP loves the cheap off-the-books labor. BTW, if you have never seen it and can rent it in Canada, check out A Day WIthout A Mexican. Its a great movie that really lays out the case for the integration of this population into the US mainstream.

I think perhaps the immigrant population is being set up as a possible collective "fall guy" for the next terrorist incident. I hope I'm wrong but with this crowd, you never know.

But it does seem extremely counterproductive this whole media-government-minuteman movement.

OK .......if I concede to your analysis I've got to conclude that yes...it's perfectly moral to pay below minimum wage, provide unsafe work conditions, refuse liability for injured workers on the job, deny workers the right to organize unions. It's best to turn our backs on illegal entry so that we can save 10 cents a lb. on our next batch of strawberries? In 'Reefer Madness' (book belies title) the author claimed that if these workers were given the rights due legal citizens, (minimum wage,workers compensation, medical benefits) it would cost the average household a measly $25 extra a year in food costs. Why do you feel morally sanctimonious in implying that I am racist....and you are not? I'm sorry I see things the other way around. If we don't demand that these people enter the country LEGALLY, then we are as guilty as those companies abusing them!

And don't naively think Canada is immune..this inhumane treatment is growing in Canada also....

http://apmp.berkeley.edu/APMP/pubs/agworkvisa/canada111503.html

Right now, Carpentry....Landscapers.....Cooks.......Child Care Workers......Meat Processors......are solid middle-class jobs in Canada...not so along the southern border States in the U.S.. Canada's carpentry workers wages are skyrocketing because of the housing boom. Why would we want to drop wages for some of the best family supporting jobs we have? I say boost the wages and employ present Canadians and recently arrived legal immigrantsstandard of living. That's not racist....that's compassion for the working man.

[ 08 May 2005: Message edited by: Saffron ]

[ 08 May 2005: Message edited by: Saffron ]

Cartman: Don't watch Fox. Bad for brain. I only watch it for Seinfeld reruns and even then....the long-term effects have yet to be documented.

quote:

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:
Saffron,

The issue of illegal Mexican immigrants is not particularly relevant to Canada, as we have no equivalent situation in which a long border of ours lies next to a vastly poorer (per capita) and less developed country with no public health system and very little social security net. But I digress from answering your question.

Yes, it is racist to discuss illegal immigrants from Mexico in the particular way as framed by your post, and hopefully I will explain why.

The economy of the U.S. is dependent on low-paid wages, particularly in the areas of farming and harvesting. This is also somewhat true of Canada. Such back-breaking and seasonal work is done by non-residents, as the pay is crap, but at least it's a job.

U.S. employers, farmers in particular, benefit from and encourage the hiring of illegal Mexican workers, as they work with very tight overheads and few other options such as subsidies from the government. Further, this condition has been allowed to go on because those who "suffer" from it don't complain, as they need the money, and have no legal recourse to complain even if they did.

Such workers are treated to horrendous physical realities, racism on the job, over-crowded living quarters while in the U.S., etc. At the same time, the economy is dependent on them so that it can keep prices low and continue "business as usual".

It's not surprising to me that the conservative media would take a fake-compassionate angle on this issue, as that's one tactic the right utilizes to appear to be examining an issue without challenging the larger structure that it functions within. The right-wing cries crocodile tears for the individuals who have suffered, using such deaths to demonstrate their own fake-compassion, while continuing to do nothing to change the circumstances under which these deaths continue.

Of course those wages, working conditions and living conditions are unacceptable, I would never deny that. But what are the solutions? Wanna see a neo-con/neo-liberal's head spin off? How about this suggestion: Open the borders.

All this emphasis on illegal immigrants, without contexualizing and challenging the economic forces that continue unchallenged, is unquestionably racist.

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Soooo from your points....

Number 1/ Not particularly relevent to Canada......Say what?
It's here...it's growing....and if we turn a blind eye..then I feel that Canadians are as guilty as the companies that hire them.

Number 2/ Yes it is racist to discuss illegal immigration in the particular way as framed by your post....Say what?
I'm decrying all the issues you mentioned. horrendous physical realities, overcrowded residences..etc,etc....IS that Not something we should be decrying? It all stems from turning a blind eye to illegal immigration with the phony 'out' of being politicaly correct!

Number 3/ The economy is dependent on them.....Say What?
As I said. Carpenters, daycare workers, cooks, are all Canadian middle-class jobs in Canada as they once were in the U.S., and our economy is much stronger than the U.S. at present.

We need to open up the old eyeballs...forget about political correctness .....and address the problem at it's root. Yes I want Americans to insist on border control!! And I want Canadians to demand the same. BUT even more importantly......we should re-evaluate Nafta, Cafta, Schm-aft!! It's only working for the top 10-20% of North American's.

1[/b]]http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/ftaa/314.html1

[ 08 May 2005: Message edited by: Saffron ]

quote:

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OK .......if I concede to your analysis I've got to conclude that yes...it's perfectly moral to pay below minimum wage, provide unsafe work conditions, refuse liability for injured workers on the job, deny workers the right to organize unions. It's best to turn our backs on illegal entry so that we can save 10 cents a lb. on our next batch of strawberries?

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Saffron I think your getting sucked into the faux-compassion of the American nationalists.

What's needed in the U.S.A. are stronger labour standards coupled with greater protection for folks who are trying to organize a union and to bargain collectively. Coupled with these laws there needs to be enforcement mechanisms.

Ever since Ronald Reagan fired all 15,000 air traffic controllers after their 1981 strike its been "open season" on the labour movement in the United States. That sent a signal to U.S. employers that it was quite alright to bust unions. And union busting is what they've done for the last couple of decades.

The USA has the weakest labour legislation of just about any "developed" country.

As for "illegal immigration" the USA needs to develop mechanisms that allow larger numbers of Mexican immigrants to enter the country legally.

Employers like the situation as it is because it gives them a large pool of cheap scared labour. The U.S. agricultural sector would totally collapse without undocumented workers.

In Cuba, the U.S. government actively encourages illegal immigration as a means to undermine the Cuban government. They deliberately set the numbers of Cubans they allow to "legally" emigrate very low. Pictures of "boat people" look much better on TV.

The American "nationalists" would like to keep the focus on illegal immigration rather deal with the larger issues.

Rather than getting all your analysis on this issue from Lou Dobbs on CNN, why don't you visit the websites of some of the organizations that are actively working in the U.S. to improve the conditions of undocumented workers.

Why not start with
United Farm Workers of America

I've seen the children in my kids class.....not all will make it through grade 12 let alone move past that. That's just a fact.

So within the Mexican population pouring across the border should be our next Doctor, Lawyer or Garbage Man.

[ 09 May 2005: Message edited by: Saffron ]

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Don't watch Fox. Bad for brain.

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I think Lou is different than O'reilly in that he has bought his own product to a certain degree, and I can appreciate that part of him. I also see the more obvious face he presents to people like you. A myopic, egotistical man who is an ultimate example of an self-centered American Nationalist.
All I'm asking is that you all try and see both sides too. I'm going to post a brief synopsis....good and bad of his show daily.

Take it, or leave it.

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Originally posted by jeff house:
The United States stole Mexico's most valuable territories: California, Texas, Arizona, and New Mexico.

Give it back and maybe they won't be so poor.

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